Domestic Electrical Wiring

[Crossy]

Can anyone explain just how the MEN provides improved safety? I've tried to think through the scenario of what can happen if there is no MEN, which, if I'm not mistaken, basically re-grounds (earths) the neutral just before it enters the main board. I certainly don't quarrel with its usefulness but just don't understand what it does.

Thanks for the great advice in this thread.

Think about it the other way round, it connects the ground to the neutral.

This ensures a low resistance path back from your earth bar to the neutral point of the transformer rather than the somewhat high resistance path provided by the mass of the earth.

With a MEN system if you have a Live - Earth fault sufficient current to drop the over current trip is guaranteed to flow. In a non-MEN system a Live - Earth fault probably will not have a low enough resistance to take out a breaker on over current, rather it relies on the ELCB / RCCB / RCD / GFI to open the circuit.

You still need an ELCB for life protection in case of contact with a live conductor, a 30mA trip may well save your life, a 20A trip (ie no ELCB) will fry you most effectively.

[chownah]

We put a fluorescent light on our soi and we used the regular white two wire house wiring which is all run overhead. We also have a water pump which is powered the same way. It's probably not to code but its up in the air and can not be reached without a ladder. The pump's been in for over four years and no problems or appreciable deterioration of the insulation...at least none that is noticeable.

[Crossy]

Anyone care to comment on outside wiring for lighting? The standard appears to be buried black rubber-encased 2 wire and flood/spot lighting receptacles with a rubber seal. Put it in yellow PVC tubes for areas of likley disturbance. My guy says he does not want to splice such outside cable which sounds like good practice. I've seen heavy plastic 4-pronged connectors, maybe these are ok for above ground outside use? I assume that any ground-level light receptacle that could get flooded would be a hazard.

Thanks again.

Provided there are no metal parts on the light fittings or they are installed more than 3m above floor level 2 core is OK. The rubber stuff is intended for outdoor use. Protection with conduit is a good idea in areas where damage could occur.

Avoid ANY connectors outside. If you must have a connector you should use the sealed ones with a rubber O ring. The yellow / blue / red plastic connectors are intended for industrial use and should not be used in domestic situations (the colours indicate the voltage in use and could cause confusion).

For ground level lighting consider using low-voltage fittings with the transformer located inside the house, absolute safety.

EDIT Remember, for safety it is IMPERATIVE that any outside wiring is protected by an ELCB.

Just because TiT it doesn't mean that the Thai way is the only way

Edited July 2, 2006 by Crossy

[chownah]

We put a fluorescent light on our soi and we used the regular white two wire house wiring which is all run overhead. We also have a water pump which is powered the same way. It's probably not to code but its up in the air and can not be reached without a ladder. The pump's been in for over four years and no problems or appreciable deterioration of the insulation...at least none that is noticeable.

my outdoor circuits have no ELCB...ELCB is the same as GFI?....right? I have no plans to use one. the wires are out of reach even for NBA superstarts....if my outdoor wires need an ELCB then the supply lines on the power poles need one too....not bloody likely!!!

[Crossy]

my outdoor circuits have no ELCB...ELCB is the same as GFI?....right? I have no plans to use one. the wires are out of reach even for NBA superstarts....if my outdoor wires need an ELCB then the supply lines on the power poles need one too....not bloody likely!!!

Yes an ELCB, RCD, RCCB, GFI are all effectively the same thing.

'Tis of course up to you. No real problem if well out of reach. That's why the stuff on the power poles is up high, if you can't touch it, it can't kill you.

My point is that most domestic outdoor lighting is NOT well out of reach.

EDIT Superfluous comment removed.

Edited July 2, 2006 by Crossy

[lopburi3]

Outside circuits would normally be pool/gate type locations and be very accessible. Even if high you would normally use an aluminum ladder to access them outside and that make a great path to ground. RCD is cheap and it is a whole lot better getting only 20ma for a fraction of a second than 20a until a circuit breaker trips in the (however remote) event you come in contact with a hot wire.

[chownah]

In my neighborhood when linemen go up to work on the wires they always use bamboo ladders and they lean the ladder right on the insulated live 220 v wire if that is the most convenient place for it! Best to use a bamboo ladder when working on electrical or else be very cautious.

Edit: I hope it is clear that I am not recommending that you through caution to the wind when using a bamboo ladder....no no no...I'm not saying that at all....be cautious even when using a bamboo ladder...or even no ladder at all!!

Edited July 2, 2006 by chownah

[Pink Mist]

In my neighborhood when linemen go up to work on the wires they always use bamboo ladders and they lean the ladder right on the insulated live 220 v wire if that is the most convenient place for it! Best to use a bamboo ladder when working on electrical or else be very cautious.

Edit: I hope it is clear that I am not recommending that you through caution to the wind when using a bamboo ladder....no no no...I'm not saying that at all....be cautious even when using a bamboo ladder...or even no ladder at all!!

5555555555555

[jimmi]

I am looking for the adapter for the "Schuko" plug. I have been to every electrical shop where I live, and no one has them. I even printed a picture of the adapter from Crossy's site and took it with me to show them. No joy. I rewired my house as it was an accident waiting to happen. There were no earthed/grounded circuits. My microwave has one of the "Schuko" plugs. I hate these things . I am about ready to cut it off and put on a 3 prong plug. But sometimes, people bring over rice cookers and other things that have these plugs on them, and I want the adapters for these situations too. Why the H_ll does Thailand use these?

I live in Isaan, right now, I am out of Thailand. When I return I will be flying into Bangkok (of coarse). I am willing to travel ANYWHERE in Thailand to get the adapters. If anyone knows of a place to get these, Please let me know. I am probably not the only one who is having trouble locating them.

Thanks, Be Safe!

[Crossy]

I am looking for the adapter for the "Schuko" plug. I have been to every electrical shop where I live, and no one has them. I even printed a picture of the adapter from Crossy's site and took it with me to show them. No joy. I rewired my house as it was an accident waiting to happen. There were no earthed/grounded circuits. My microwave has one of the "Schuko" plugs. I hate these things . I am about ready to cut it off and put on a 3 prong plug. But sometimes, people bring over rice cookers and other things that have these plugs on them, and I want the adapters for these situations too. Why the H_ll does Thailand use these?

I live in Isaan, right now, I am out of Thailand. When I return I will be flying into Bangkok (of coarse). I am willing to travel ANYWHERE in Thailand to get the adapters. If anyone knows of a place to get these, Please let me know. I am probably not the only one who is having trouble locating them.

Thanks, Be Safe!

Bleedin typical isn't it? Find something useful / nice, everywhere's out of stock, happened with smoked salmon in Tesco too

My adapter came from Homepro. The alternative is (Homepro again) there are now proper Schuko sockets that will fit a standard Thai wallbox, really a better solution (piccy on the website).

I'll check if I can still get both and the price, can soon drop a couple in the post if you fail locally

[Crossy]

I am looking for the adapter for the "Schuko" plug. I have been to every electrical shop where I live, and no one has them. I even printed a picture of the adapter from Crossy's site and took it with me to show them. No joy.

OK.

Adaptors are still available in HomePro

Made in China by Wonpro, part number WA-GF(R5B). Packaging looks like this :-

On a board with loads of other adaptors, not cheap though, 69 Baht.

[bcross2001]

I am looking for the adapter for the "Schuko" plug. I have been to every electrical shop where I live, and no one has them. I even printed a picture of the adapter from Crossy's site and took it with me to show them. No joy. I rewired my house as it was an accident waiting to happen. There were no earthed/grounded circuits. My microwave has one of the "Schuko" plugs. I hate these things . I am about ready to cut it off and put on a 3 prong plug. But sometimes, people bring over rice cookers and other things that have these plugs on them, and I want the adapters for these situations too. Why the H_ll does Thailand use these?

I live in Isaan, right now, I am out of Thailand. When I return I will be flying into Bangkok (of coarse). I am willing to travel ANYWHERE in Thailand to get the adapters. If anyone knows of a place to get these, Please let me know. I am probably not the only one who is having trouble locating them.

Thanks, Be Safe!

Bleedin typical isn't it? Find something useful / nice, everywhere's out of stock, happened with smoked salmon in Tesco too

My adapter came from Homepro. The alternative is (Homepro again) there are now proper Schuko sockets that will fit a standard Thai wallbox, really a better solution (piccy on the website).

I'll check if I can still get both and the price, can soon drop a couple in the post if you fail locally

That's farm salmon - you know what your eating?

[Crossy]

That's farm salmon - you know what your eating?

I said "Scottish Salmon", tasted pretty good although I expect it was farmed. Academic really, we bought both packs that were on display, never seen it since

Meanwhile, a more elegant solution for the Schuko problem is made by Haco (again from Homepro), their "Miracle Series" has all sorts of interchangable bits so you can make any combination of sockets / switches / dimmers etc. All fits in a standard flush, rectangular Thai wallbox.

The bits to make the outlet in the piccy, one Schuko and one 2 pin cost a whole 130 Baht.

At these prices you cannot afford NOT to do it right, can you?

Edited July 11, 2006 by Crossy

[david96]

elkangorito, where does one go to find an electrical wholesaler in Thailand?

http://www.clipsalthailand.com/home/en/switch/main.php

Browse this site and you will find all you need, site is in Thai and English.

[david96]

AS3018/2001 The standard for domestic/residential electrical installations.

This Standard applies only to installations in single domestic premises including alterations and additions. The requirements and

methods outlined are intended to reflect common installation practices for installations connected to a multiple earthed neutral (MEN) system of earthing. This Standard is consistent with AS 3000 and includes sufficient definitions, information and illustrations to allow an installation to be carried out without reference to AS 3000 except for alternative methods.

The requirements in this Standard are modelled on installations with a maximum demand limit of 80 A single phase or 50 A per phase for multiphase, however it does not prohibit application for higher maximum demands. The connection of an installation with a maximum demand in excess of 80 A to a single phase supply may depend on the requirements of the appropriate supply authority as they may have limitations on the maximum demand which may be connected to single phase supply. This Standard sets out the minimum requirements to comply with AS 3000. Specifies requirements for the installation of electrical equipment and the testing of the completed installation in single domestic premises. The requirements and methods are consistent with AS 3000 and reflect common practices. Installations carried out in accordance with these requirements are considered as complying with AS 3000. A number of illustrations have been included to clarify the requirements.

Website http://www.saiglobal.com/shop/Script/PortalElectrical.asp

And here is up to date site on electrical safety and the use of safety switches / RCDs.

http://www.dir.qld.gov.au/electricalsafety...y/safetyswitch/

[johng]

I am looking for the adapter for the "Schuko" plug. I have been to every electrical shop where I live, and no one has them. I even printed a picture of the adapter from Crossy's site and took it with me to show them. No joy

Same here...can't find them at all in Pattaya, went to homepro ( all of them in the area ) first they denied having them ,then armed with picture they said out of stock come back in 2 weeks now more than a month later still not in stock.

I'll check if I can still get both and the price, can soon drop a couple in the post if you fail locally

Crossy could you get me some too ? I need 6 of those WA-GF(R5B) adaptors.

[Crossy]

And here is up to date site on electrical safety and the use of safety switches / RCDs.

http://www.dir.qld.gov.au/electricalsafety...y/safetyswitch/

Bloody hel_l, we now have yet another name "Safety Switch" for an ELCB / RCCB / RCD / GFI / Safe-T-Cut / Trip

[Crossy]

I am looking for the adapter for the "Schuko" plug. I have been to every electrical shop where I live, and no one has them. I even printed a picture of the adapter from Crossy's site and took it with me to show them. No joy

Same here...can't find them at all in Pattaya, went to homepro ( all of them in the area ) first they denied having them ,then armed with picture they said out of stock come back in 2 weeks now more than a month later still not in stock.

I'll check if I can still get both and the price, can soon drop a couple in the post if you fail locally

Crossy could you get me some too ? I need 6 of those WA-GF(R5B) adaptors.

No problem John, drop me a PM with your contact details.

Please Note: There is insufficent spacing on a double Thai outlet to use two of these adaptors

[johng]

No problem John, drop me a PM with your contact details.

PM sent......

[phusingpete]

I am looking for the adapter for the "Schuko" plug. I have been to every electrical shop where I live, and no one has them. I even printed a picture of the adapter from Crossy's site and took it with me to show them. No joy

Same here...can't find them at all in Pattaya, went to homepro ( all of them in the area ) first they denied having them ,then armed with picture they said out of stock come back in 2 weeks now more than a month later still not in stock.

I'll check if I can still get both and the price, can soon drop a couple in the post if you fail locally

Crossy could you get me some too ? I need 6 of those WA-GF(R5B) adaptors.

No problem John, drop me a PM with your contact details.

Please Note: There is insufficent spacing on a double Thai outlet to use two of these adaptors

Hi all, I have been reading this site with great interest and some concern as

I have just had a house built in Issan and I have no knowledge or understanding

of electrical wiring. However it does seem that my builder did a good job as I have three pin power sockets throughout the house and it is earthed. I have wondered

why appliances do not have three pin plugs, your site has cleared this up for me, I shall now join the search for the illusive adapters or correct power points.

I have a couple of questions. My distribution board is a square D but the trip switches do not have a button to test them. Does this mean they are not up to good safety

Standards and if not can I have the switches changed or do I have to replace the whole unit?

I am now having a kitchen built and have bought an in built oven. The only information. on installation states that it must be earthed and that it is 230V. I am told,

by Thai’s who know, that this may be plugged into my existing power points, is this correct? I will have to have an electrician put in a new power point because of the ovens position, I just want to be sure that it is right.

This is a very useful site, many many thanks for your time and effort……..

[lopburi3]

1. With no test button it would appear you do not have any RCD protection (which is optional but I feel well worth the money). If you have a multi meter (Lotus sell for about 200 baht) you should check that indeed you do have ground by reading a 220v between the hot (L) pin and ground pin on outlets. Check each one to be sure. One pin to ground zero volts - the other pin to ground 220 volts. You can have electrician do this when install stove but I would watch myself to be sure. I only use a Square D after an RCD so not sure if they make built in RCD's or not but suspect that they do. Normally you replace the main breaker with the RCD but on a normal box that will mean all items are protected. Another method would be the local Safe-T-Cut (or clone) feeding the panel you already have (and that will have a test button). I am a strong believer in RCD and would have it installed.

2. Do not have an electric oven but would think it may require a direct electric run from panel. My clothes dryer does. There must be some indication on the unit (such as X,000VA or Watts). But in any case I would plan a direct wire connection to a suitable breaker (even if this means adding or expanding your present panel) rather than using a plug (which would probably be added to a circuit that may already, or in future, be overloaded). Also make very sure the ground wire is connected.

[Crossy]

...... why appliances do not have three pin plugs, your site has cleared this up for me, I shall now join the search for the illusive adapters or correct power points.

I have a couple of questions. My distribution board is a square D but the trip switches do not have a button to test them. Does this mean they are not up to good safety

Standards and if not can I have the switches changed or do I have to replace the whole unit?

I am now having a kitchen built and have bought an in built oven. The only information. on installation states that it must be earthed and that it is 230V. I am told,

by Thai’s who know, that this may be plugged into my existing power points, is this correct? I will have to have an electrician put in a new power point because of the ovens position, I just want to be sure that it is right.

This is a very useful site, many many thanks for your time and effort……..

Hi Pete. We seem to have the only branch of HomePro with the adaptors Drop me a PM if you want a couple, they're 70 Baht each

Your oven is going to be marginal on a regular outlet, usually 3kW or so, that's 13.6 Amps at 220V, rather near the (optimistic IMHO) 16A rating of the plug and there's a danger of getting nuisance trips when you plug in the toaster as well, go for a seperate circuit.

Usually there is one breaker (the incoming one) that is an ELCB (with a 'test' button). If you have no test button then you have no ELCB and you should get one installed. As Lop says you just replace the big incoming breaker with an ELCB, or you can add an external unit (trade name Safe-T-Cut).

[phusingpete]

...... why appliances do not have three pin plugs, your site has cleared this up for me, I shall now join the search for the illusive adapters or correct power points.

I have a couple of questions. My distribution board is a square D but the trip switches do not have a button to test them. Does this mean they are not up to good safety

Standards and if not can I have the switches changed or do I have to replace the whole unit?

I am now having a kitchen built and have bought an in built oven. The only information. on installation states that it must be earthed and that it is 230V. I am told,

by Thai’s who know, that this may be plugged into my existing power points, is this correct? I will have to have an electrician put in a new power point because of the ovens position, I just want to be sure that it is right.

This is a very useful site, many many thanks for your time and effort……..

Hi Pete. We seem to have the only branch of HomePro with the adaptors Drop me a PM if you want a couple, they're 70 Baht each

Your oven is going to be marginal on a regular outlet, usually 3kW or so, that's 13.6 Amps at 220V, rather near the (optimistic IMHO) 16A rating of the plug and there's a danger of getting nuisance trips when you plug in the toaster as well, go for a seperate circuit.

Usually there is one breaker (the incoming one) that is an ELCB (with a 'test' button). If you have no test button then you have no ELCB and you should get one installed. As Lop says you just replace the big incoming breaker with an ELCB, or you can add an external unit (trade name Safe-T-Cut).

Thanks for the info. and advice.I thought that I would need a separate circuit, so all I have to do now is find someone reliable to do it all. Wish me luck. Many thanks

[ianc66]

Once again congratulations on a great topic.

I am having a house built here in Hua Hin. The electrics are single phase three wire, and my intention is to have elcb protection on all circuits (including lighting as I will install battery powered emergency lights), in addition to a good earth and MEN link.

My electrician and his usual supplier have never heard of eclcb, no problem I said I would go and get, went to the local Home Pro, they have Shuko plugs anjd adapters, they have Saftey Cut, they even have elcb to go in seperate wall mounted breaker boxes, they have Square D breakers to go in the distribution boar, BUT they do not have elcb breakers for the distribution board. The gormless clown that passed for their electrical salesperson seemed to be bemused as to why anybody should want them.

Any hints as to where I might buy here in Hua Hin, or Bangkok or via a distributor would be welcome. Ideally I find a distributor/supplier and get a local supplier to order for me.

Possibly it would be useful to post a list of distributors/outlets with a stock of up to date electrical equipment. (Most of what is on sale here is Thailand looks like a cheap copy of stuff from the real world circa 1930.)

[lopburi3]

If you are protecting everything the normal Safe-T-Cut prior to the breaker box is all you should need (just remember to ground neutral at input if you are using MEN). I know that Clipsal makes what they call RCCB as main breakers for breaker panels but you may have to obtain from a dedicated electric supply shop (in Bangkok there are many - not sure about down there). I have not seen individual outlet type RCD's as used in US here (but having at panel also provides better fire protection) nor have I seen individual RCD breakers of low amperage for dedicated circuit use in panels (but they may well be available). I do agree the dedicated RCD circuit breaker for each circuit would be easier to trouble shoot (although probably much more expensive to install). You could use a number of small panels (1 circuit - RCCB and CB of required amperage) if need be (and space/money not a factor).

If your electrician does not understand "Safe-T-Cut" find another - they have been in use here for some 30 years. If he does the work be very sure you check that ground wires have really been installed (and not just cut off). Or attached to the L (hot) wire as some jokers tried when installing a kitchen exhaust fan for me last month.

[ianc66]

Follow up to previous post, went with a Thai speaker to the usual electrical retailer he did have ELCB (Square D type QO-RCDX) well a few and could order from his supplier via the Square D catalogue which refers to them as RCD, price a hefty 2000-2500 depending on ampage.

I really don't fancy a single Safe-T Cut they look naff and are to easy to bypass so have a MCD 63amp with a 30ma RCD on order again expensive 4,500 Baht -- but what does a funeral cost?

So my Square D distribution board will have a 63 amp MCD with 30ma protection running RCD with 10 ma and the appropriate conventional ampage.

Will have battery powered emergency lights, whilst I agree with Crossys' point about leaving some lights off the ELCB circuits so as to help exit the house in an emergency in principle; I can think of emergencies where the power would be go anyway, lightening strike, wind damage, electricity pole down when soft earth was weakened by rainfall, (seen this myself last year) for instance.

[johng]

Big thank you to Crossy for sending me some of the very elusive WA-GF(R5B) adaptors.

[ianc66]

Well,

I have my ELCBs the PEA have provided power and the electrican has wired it all up, he got it wrong to begin with not connecting the Earth pigtail on most of the , square D, ELCB so the test button did not work. Now rewired we tested everything and failed -- almost any device plugged in and turned on causes the circuit breakers to trip. A mobile phone charger does not a fan or kettle does.

Anybody got any suggestions for troubleshooting?

[Crossy]

Well,

I have my ELCBs the PEA have provided power and the electrican has wired it all up, he got it wrong to begin with not connecting the Earth pigtail on most of the , square D, ELCB so the test button did not work. Now rewired we tested everything and failed -- almost any device plugged in and turned on causes the circuit breakers to trip. A mobile phone charger does not a fan or kettle does.

Anybody got any suggestions for troubleshooting?

Can you sketch how it's connected up and post here (or email to me) please. The reason ELCB's do NOT normally need a ground connection to operate correctly.

Or try looking at the consumer unit drawings on http://www.crossy.co.uk/wiring and comparing with what you have.

Edited August 17, 2006 by Crossy

[ianc66]

Well,

I have my ELCBs the PEA have provided power and the electrican has wired it all up, he got it wrong to begin with not connecting the Earth pigtail on most of the , square D, ELCB so the test button did not work. Now rewired we tested everything and failed -- almost any device plugged in and turned on causes the circuit breakers to trip. A mobile phone charger does not a fan or kettle does.

Anybody got any suggestions for troubleshooting?

Can you sketch how it's connected up and post here (or email to me) please. The reason ELCB's do NOT normally need a ground connection to operate correctly.

Or try looking at the consumer unit drawings on http://www.crossy.co.uk/wiring and comparing with what you have.

Crossy,

Thanks

Drawing to follow.

However just to check you say ELCBs DO NOT normally need earth.

I actually do have a earth the problem I was refering to was that the 32 and 20 amp ELCB -- I've put them on all such circuits and the electrician forgot to connect the pigtail to the earth bar so most did not work on the test button I got him to connect the pigtails to earth they then worked on the test buttons. However they now trip out under any load.

Thanks