The most dangerous countries to drive in; Thailand ranks #2

[simondan]

I think perhaps the biggest contributing factor (debatable I know) to Thailands outrageous road toll is the disrespect for road rules, including basic but serious things like drink driving. I lay this at the feet of corrupt police and extremely poor public awareness. Why respect the law when you can pay an 'on the spot fine' and drive away? When traffic police and govt traffic depts do their jobs less Thais will die every year.

Recently I saw a semi trailer stop on a one way exit lane from a major highway, do a 3 point turn stopping all oncoming traffic, then proceed to drive the wrong way down the exit lane to enter the highway (in through the out door) and turn across oncoming traffic (again causing huge disruptions to traffic flowing at 100 kmph) on the highway to continue on his way. He'd taken a wrong turn. He almost caused at least 5 high speed collisions. An insane manouvre that no professional driver in Australia would even consider. They would lose their license for years and perhaps be banned from heavy vehicles for life! That it was done at all indicates either the driver is a complete idiot, or he is confident repercussions will be limited if caught (or both probably).

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[mojorison]

I think perhaps the biggest contributing factor (debatable I know) to Thailands outrageous road toll is the disrespect for road rules, including basic but serious things like drink driving. I lay this at the feet of corrupt police and extremely poor public awareness. Why respect the law when you can pay an 'on the spot fine' and drive away? When traffic police and govt traffic depts do their jobs less Thais will die every year.

Recently I saw a semi trailer stop on a one way exit lane from a major highway, do a 3 point turn stopping all oncoming traffic, then proceed to drive the wrong way down the exit lane to enter the highway (in through the out door) and turn across oncoming traffic (again causing huge disruptions to traffic flowing at 100 kmph) on the highway to continue on his way. He'd taken a wrong turn. He almost caused at least 5 high speed collisions. An insane manouvre that no professional driver in Australia would even consider. They would lose their license for years and perhaps be banned from heavy vehicles for life! That it was done at all indicates either the driver is a complete idiot, or he is confident repercussions will be limited if caught (or both probably).

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That sounds like an incredibly complex maneuver, and to think he probably did it whilst under the influence, making a phone call, and getting a blow job. Kudos I say.

[simondan]

I really think that those posting their personal experiences should consider if their "offerings" are evidence of anything but but their own limited perception and analysis.

Personal experience is for the most part worthless especially when offered as a conclusive comment on a much, much bigger picture.

Of course you must be correct we should ignore those with experience who know what actually happens and accept the wildly exaggerated claims of those whose experience is limited to the media and holidays in Pattaya or Phuket. Well done wilcopops for coming up with this startling original and meaningless proposition.

You really don't gettit, which is the problem with most of the commentaries on road safety - "personal experience" is probably the worst way to examine any problem critically. If we did that most people would think the world was flat.

It was the explorers sailing their ships around the world who through experience proved that the world was spherical not the theorists sitting at their computers in cosy little houses and pontificating about the real world

Sorry to burst your bubble mate but actually Aristotle predicted that the Earth is spherical in 330 BC from theoretical models. By the time of Colombus almost 2000 years later this theory was well accepted in Europe.

This is an excellent example of how theoretical models and ideas combined with experimentation can move humanity forward.

Its called science. Without it we wouldn't have the internal combustion engine and the question of Thailands road toll would be mute.

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[wilcopops]

I really think that those posting their personal experiences should consider if their "offerings" are evidence of anything but but their own limited perception and analysis.

Personal experience is for the most part worthless especially when offered as a conclusive comment on a much, much bigger picture.

Of course you must be correct we should ignore those with experience who know what actually happens and accept the wildly exaggerated claims of those whose experience is limited to the media and holidays in Pattaya or Phuket. Well done wilcopops for coming up with this startling original and meaningless proposition.

You really don't gettit, which is the problem with most of the commentaries on road safety - "personal experience" is probably the worst way to examine any problem critically. If we did that most people would think the world was flat.

It was the explorers sailing their ships around the world who through experience proved that the world was spherical not the theorists sitting at their computers in cosy little houses and pontificating about the real world

I think this post shows how you are too ready to jump to conclusions without looking at the evidence.

Try applying your logic to other things and it will soon also become unravelled.

[wilcopops]

“The one thing that unites all human beings, regardless of age, gender, religion, economic status, or ethnic background, is that, deep down inside, we all believe that we are above-average drivers.”

By posting that you prove that Thai People also have the same problem, they believe they're good !! but without any training... and no rules to follow.. and no government to explain and help to increase the security on roads.Please make the addition of all these things and and you'll find he truth about DANGER on the road here..

Best Regards

PS : by the way : are you, yourself in personn, driving everyday here on main roads ? if so.. I hope you also have your car protected by monks and all the amulettes needed to be safe in all cases, that also works well like theses stats show us. GOOD luck

"Luck"? I don't think so!

It's a shame that you haven't picked up on a couple of points in my posts. Firstly I regard road safety as a SCIENCE. Secondly on the few occasions when I refer to my personal (extensive) experience, I do so as objectively and analytically as possible.

Edited February 24, 2014 by wilcopops

[wilcopops]

A single observed issue has little if any validity.

[Zendo]

When it smells like a troll and it looks like a troll, what does science says ?

Professor wilcopops says : "I think this post shows how you are too ready to jump to conclusions without looking at the evidence."

what kind of evidence are you talking about ? that people who die on the road are not dead in fact, like quantic science explains us they may exist in a different world on another molecular state ?

if you dont believe in luck, may the science be with you then !

[Artist]

Sorry to burst your bubble mate but actually Aristotle predicted that the Earth is spherical in 330 BC from theoretical models. By the time of Colombus almost 2000 years later this theory was well accepted in Europe.

This is an excellent example of how theoretical models and ideas combined with experimentation can move humanity forward.
Its called science. Without it we wouldn't have the internal combustion engine and the question of Thailands road toll would be mute.

Mate, I said "proved" not "predicted"

I am sure you are aware that the scientific method includes observation and experimentation as well as theory.

This whole thread is full of hysterical claims as to how dangerous driving in Thailand is based on a statistic. Several of us here are saying that during years of driving in Thailand we have not found it so dangerous.

So our observation and experimentation disproves your theory.

There seem to be several things going on here

If you have not driven extensively in Thailand the crazy behaviour of drivers leads you to believe that it must be very dangerous to drive here. Sure by Western standards the driving is insane. As I have said previously in this thread people consistently overtake on blind bends forcing the oncoming traffic to break or pull onto the side shoulder. To the newcomer this must be very frightening, but you get used to it and drivers are all very aware and simply take evasive action. In 10 years of driving here I have never witnessed and accident. From my observation I can say its not as dangerous as it may appear.

I drive mainly in rural areas or on the major highways. I avoid going to the tourist centres as I don't like them. It may well be that driving in Phuket, Pattaya, Chiang Mai etc is more dangerous than the places I drive.

I suspect that some of those who pontificate about statistics and science don't actually have much experience of driving in Thailand and so are not really qualified to make considered comments.

“Theories might inspire you, but experiments will advance you.”

― Amit Kalantri

[Tom Smith]

I agree there are a lot of crazies on the road here who will rather die trying to pass you on a blind curve. The problem I have is I been driving here so long I am picking up a few of their bad habits.

[wprime]

Queue the usual 'Thailand, hub of...' posts and other crap.

I have safely driven maybe three quarters of a million miles in Los between 1977 and now. There's probably some who have done even more.

Sure it would be very risky for someone who had never, driven in LOS to get behind the wheel of a car at Suvarnabhumi and drive to (say) Pai on the pre-Songkran weekend... but who on earth does that?

There's loads of stats on what kills the most foreigners in Thailand but I don't recall it being driving related. Even if we look at the very high risk motorcycle accident victim, outside the tourists spots, you don't see a lot of foreigners on 2-wheels.

Agree, I've done around 200,000km in Thailand and while I've had my share of close calls and scrapes, I don't find the roads particularly dangerous to anyone exercising due care.

[simondan]

Sorry to burst your bubble mate but actually Aristotle predicted that the Earth is spherical in 330 BC from theoretical models. By the time of Colombus almost 2000 years later this theory was well accepted in Europe.

This is an excellent example of how theoretical models and ideas combined with experimentation can move humanity forward.

Its called science. Without it we wouldn't have the internal combustion engine and the question of Thailands road toll would be mute.

Mate, I said "proved" not "predicted"

I am sure you are aware that the scientific method includes observation and experimentation as well as theory.

This whole thread is full of hysterical claims as to how dangerous driving in Thailand is based on a statistic. Several of us here are saying that during years of driving in Thailand we have not found it so dangerous.

So our observation and experimentation disproves your theory.

There seem to be several things going on here

If you have not driven extensively in Thailand the crazy behaviour of drivers leads you to believe that it must be very dangerous to drive here. Sure by Western standards the driving is insane. As I have said previously in this thread people consistently overtake on blind bends forcing the oncoming traffic to break or pull onto the side shoulder. To the newcomer this must be very frightening, but you get used to it and drivers are all very aware and simply take evasive action. In 10 years of driving here I have never witnessed and accident. From my observation I can say its not as dangerous as it may appear.

I drive mainly in rural areas or on the major highways. I avoid going to the tourist centres as I don't like them. It may well be that driving in Phuket, Pattaya, Chiang Mai etc is more dangerous than the places I drive.

I suspect that some of those who pontificate about statistics and science don't actually have much experience of driving in Thailand and so are not really qualified to make considered comments.

“Theories might inspire you, but experiments will advance you.”

― Amit Kalantri

Quoted text above

Reply below

But the fact remains that the stats DONT say its dangerous to drive in Thailand. All the stats say is that in the year of the survey, 44 fatalities were recorded in Thailand per 100 000 of population. This was the second highest result of all countries surveyed.

Thats all they say.

You could get from that that LOS is the second most dangerous country of the countries surveyed for road fatalities. That would be pretty safe to state based on this stat and accepting the survey limitations.

But you still have a 99.96% chance of not being a fatality.

Whether that makes Thailand a 'dangerous' place to drive or not is up to you, its completely subjective. The stats dont make any claims in this respect.

Incidentally, in regards to road accidents, if you think your past record is going to protect you from future harm, you are sadly mistaken. Good, safe drivers are killed everyday by idiots or bad roads. So this means your safe driving record has no bearing whatsoever on your statistical chance of being killed (when its expressed per head of population).

Thats why past driving history is irrelevant to what these stats tell us.

Hysterical? Pontificating?

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Edited February 24, 2014 by simondan

[Rooney860]

Early this morning I tooted my car horn as a warning for overtaking of two motorcyclists travelling side by side and blocking the road. They pulled over and then chased me hitting the side of my car with their helmets. I do not imaging this behaviour is unique to Thailand, but its my first experience of this level of aggression when driving in many countries over many years.

Nice to see they had helmets!!!!!

[mojorison]

Early this morning I tooted my car horn as a warning for overtaking of two motorcyclists travelling side by side and blocking the road. They pulled over and then chased me hitting the side of my car with their helmets. I do not imaging this behaviour is unique to Thailand, but its my first experience of this level of aggression when driving in many countries over many years.

Nice to see they had helmets!!!!!

Yes, that's a good lesson. One must be careful when tooting... wrong time, wrong place and bad things could happen. Ample tooting as a gentle warning - no problems, tooting to show displeasure is risky.

[Artist]

But the fact remains that the stats DONT say its dangerous to drive in Thailand. All the stats say is that in the year of the survey, 44 fatalities were recorded in Thailand per 100 000 of population. This was the second highest result of all countries surveyed.

Thats all they say.

You could get from that that LOS is the second most dangerous country of the countries surveyed for road fatalities. That would be pretty safe to state based on this stat and accepting the survey limitations.

But you still have a 99.96% chance of not being a fatality.

Whether that makes Thailand a 'dangerous' place to drive or not is up to you, its completely subjective. The stats dont make any claims in this respect.

Incidentally, in regards to road accidents, if you think your past record is going to protect you from future harm, you are sadly mistaken. Good, safe drivers are killed everyday by idiots or bad roads. So this means your safe driving record has no bearing whatsoever on your statistical chance of being killed (when its expressed per head of population).

Thats why past driving history is irrelevant to what these stats tell us.

Hysterical? Pontificating?

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That's cool you stay home afraid to venture out on to the streets and I will enjoy the glorious dangers of driving in this wonderful but frightening country

[simondan]

But the fact remains that the stats DONT say its dangerous to drive in Thailand. All the stats say is that in the year of the survey, 44 fatalities were recorded in Thailand per 100 000 of population. This was the second highest result of all countries surveyed.

Thats all they say.

You could get from that that LOS is the second most dangerous country of the countries surveyed for road fatalities. That would be pretty safe to state based on this stat and accepting the survey limitations.

But you still have a 99.96% chance of not being a fatality.

Whether that makes Thailand a 'dangerous' place to drive or not is up to you, its completely subjective. The stats dont make any claims in this respect.

Incidentally, in regards to road accidents, if you think your past record is going to protect you from future harm, you are sadly mistaken. Good, safe drivers are killed everyday by idiots or bad roads. So this means your safe driving record has no bearing whatsoever on your statistical chance of being killed (when its expressed per head of population).

Thats why past driving history is irrelevant to what these stats tell us.

Hysterical? Pontificating?

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That's cool you stay home afraid to venture out on to the streets and I will enjoy the glorious dangers of driving in this wonderful but frightening country

Nah, I love the anarchy in this country. Its partly why Im here. Not afraid at all (not sure how you got that from my posts - a bit of fiction from the artist).

It doesnt mean I left my brain at home. I can still understand basic stats and logic. And read.

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[tominbkk]

I don't know....been driving here for 12 years.....just got to be very careful and patient....never had an issue......

Have been close at U turns with cars and bikes coming along the wrong way.

Speed, drugs, booze and tiredness......and of course, inexperience........that's what takes people out here on the roads.

Have been driving over ten years here, never a problem (knocking on wood right now). What Chris says...stay vigilant, be careful and patient. Never take anything for granted.

[wilcopops]

I don't know....been driving here for 12 years.....just got to be very careful and patient....never had an issue......

Have been close at U turns with cars and bikes coming along the wrong way.

Speed, drugs, booze and tiredness......and of course, inexperience........that's what takes people out here on the roads.

Have been driving over ten years here, never a problem (knocking on wood right now). What Chris says...stay vigilant, be careful and patient. Never take anything for granted.

"Never take anything for granted" - I agree, but this applies to EVERY country, EVERY day........I think the problem is that the posters here who go on so blaming others is that they expect to be able to take things for granted which is what they do at home, only in Thailand you won't get away with that. They really don't realise that the reason they have survived so long on the road isn't down to being "good drivers", it's down to the road safety protection afforded to them in their home countries......something they are lithely unaware of.

[Zendo]

if you have time to read, here is one very long post about all that,

I prefer to give link instead of quoting some sentences without reference :

http://www.lonelyplanet.com/thorntree/thread.jspa?threadID=2360463

I am sure many of us here already got the link

best regards

[I knew this would happen]

Have you ever noticed that anybody driving slower than you is an idiot, and anyone going faster than you is a maniac?

Yes, happen quite often Your little quote is aimed more about the daily nitpicking on western roads.

We are talking about things like intentionally running red lights and driving on the wrong side of the road. That is serious stupidity!

And I agree that it is possible to drive here without having an accident for 10-20-30 years. It just isn´t fun (for me), driving used to be something I enjoy, now I hate it. But as all board members live in different areas it´s hard to find a common point of view anyway. As I am in BKK, driving here is not pleasant at all. Other regions may be a lot better, haven´t been everywhere and don´t intend to go to certain places.

Edited February 25, 2014 by I knew this would happen

[Gonsalviz]

It's not so bad here once you figure out they can't drive at all.

They do seem to have largely the same bad habits. Learn them and you can be a lot safer.

I ride a big bike and a car here.

[NomadJoe]

The study they are getting this info from is called "“Mortality from road crashes in 193 countries: A comparison with other leading causes of death” in which they collected data from the " number of fatalities per population using data from the World Health Organization." Nothing about cars specifically. It would appear the articles author has injected the word "cars" into the discussion. Coming from a western country they are probably ignorant to the fact that much of the transport here and in Namibia is on two wheels.

It's been proven that Thailand under reports fatalities. Whatever the published number is, the real number is likely much higher.

[NangrongJ]

I've said this so many times that I've stopped coming onto forums and trying to explain. Posting non-accredited material does not help, even from a university.. Posting ''in my experience'', is not relevant as we all have a different threshold to evaluating risk.

I often look at Wikipedia, there's some good information on it. However, as a former UK registered expert witness and as a working researcher I am not allowed to refer to Wiki as it lacks credibility and accreditation.

Thailand refused to be audited, as stated, their statistics are not credible. This isn't only malice and the usual corruption, it's also incompetence. Thailand is an insular country, they do not take well to foreigners interfering, unless it's the USA selling arms of course. They could have been given a $6 million grant to improve road safety, mainly in education, but part of the agreement was the UN/WHO would monitor where the money goes. Not surprising that Thailand declined. The $6 million went to Cambodia and Vietnam.

[simondan]

I've said this so many times that I've stopped coming onto forums and trying to explain. Posting non-accredited material does not help, even from a university.. Posting ''in my experience'', is not relevant as we all have a different threshold to evaluating risk.

I often look at Wikipedia, there's some good information on it. However, as a former UK registered expert witness and as a working researcher I am not allowed to refer to Wiki as it lacks credibility and accreditation.

Thailand refused to be audited, as stated, their statistics are not credible. This isn't only malice and the usual corruption, it's also incompetence. Thailand is an insular country, they do not take well to foreigners interfering, unless it's the USA selling arms of course. They could have been given a $6 million grant to improve road safety, mainly in education, but part of the agreement was the UN/WHO would monitor where the money goes. Not surprising that Thailand declined. The $6 million went to Cambodia and Vietnam.

Good contribution!

But sure as a bear sh@*s in the woods there are a host of posters whose only expertise is in expressing their own opinions or how to make small talk with bar girls who will point out where you are wrong in their own idea of a reasoned argument. And that personal experience (which is of course more macho) trumps research (those who sit at home and theorise on computers) every time. As if one is somehow the polar opposite, or negates the need for, the other.

'Registered expert witness? Whats that to my [here you insert a suitably impressive figure] km of accident free driving in the LOS I know so well! Anybody who disagrees with me obviously hasn't been here as long as me (or their a troll)! Hey, maybe I AM a traffic expert after all!'

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[NangrongJ]

Nothing wrong with opinions, and empty cans make the loudest noise. However, there is a difference between a matter of opinion and an opinion that matters. If you don't know what an expert witness is, or even more importantly, does then ok.

Forums will always spurt out a wide variety of information but lets face it chaps, it's mostly for gossip and entertainment purposes. Would you really come on here to be educated and enlightened?

As an expat 0f several decades and experience of working in over 30 countries, I only pop into this forum occasionally as its there is usually very little of interest or relevance to me.

[Boxclever]

I've driven a number of years in Vietnam, Iran and Thailand. I'll take Thailand to be the safest in my car and now my wheelchair. The car and taxi drivers here in Bangkok are quite cautious and courteous compared to the other 2 countries. Can't say that much for motorcyclists. But they are bad everywhere.

Agreed, I've been working in Cambodia for over 2 years now, much more dangerous here. At least Thailand has got some rules to follow

[wilcopops]

"However, as a former UK registered expert witness and as a working researcher I am not allowed to refer to Wiki as it lacks credibility and accreditation." - now there's a thing - a researcher who can't look everywhere? .....would say that if only as source of citations Wiki is worth a look.

however when I was a researcher we had to appreciate and differentiate between primary, secondary and tertiary sources, i8t would appear that you don't do that? we were interest in the reliability evidence not the name of the publisher.

Edited February 28, 2014 by wilcopops

[NangrongJ]

It's not what I want. Each subject has its own sources, and the only credible source for road safety is UN/WHO (http://who.int/violence_injury_prevention/road_safety_status/2013/en/) . Research and investigations take 4 years. You only have to google road safety stats to see the first 12 entries all contradict each other. In any case, would you take such information from a country that has the worst road safety in the developed world (USA)?

[bigehitewarrior]

Have you ever driven in Italy ..surely Rome and their motorbike driving is just about as peculiar 555 but if you lucky you be ok

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[simple1]

Road death figures from a Thai government source dated 03/2013 stated there were 26,000 road deaths in 2010 that equated to 38.1 deaths per 100,000 people. If the report was accurate put Thailand at the number three spot globally at deaths per 100k of population in 2010.

http://englishnews.thaipbs.or.th/thailand-ranks-worlds-third-highest-road-fatalities/

Edited February 28, 2014 by simple1

[ginjag]

Road death figures from a Thai government source dated 03/2013 stated there were 26,000 road deaths in 2010 that equated to 38.1 deaths per 100,000 people. If the report was accurate put Thailand at the number three spot globally at deaths per 100k of population in 2010.

http://englishnews.thaipbs.or.th/thailand-ranks-worlds-third-highest-road-fatalities/

Deaths at the SCENE. and road deaths for 2013 are----????? surely they have them out now.

What always surprises me is the most dangerous days (new year) over the 7 days are far less than normal days, suppose true figures dare not be published, these are always way under the actual--but off subject TAT figures are way over, general brainwashing here.