THAI books Bt12bn net loss

[Ricardo]

Given the strategic advantages that Thailand Airways has over other global airlines, there is no excuse for failure on that level.

Tell me what strategic advantages they have over Qatar, Etihad and Emirates. Go on.

Thai Advantages

1. No need to divert and change planes in a Gulf hub, saves at least 2-3 hours on a European-flight, provided they can get the loads & match the prices.

2. Thai food & language-spoken all-the-way

3. Star Alliance

Cons

1. Gulf-based offer more destinations in each European country

2. Gulf-based sometimes offer higher daily frequency

3. Cost of carrying fuel for a 10/12-hour flight instead of 2 5/6-hour flights

4. Older fleet, and it often shows

5. 23 kgs of hold-luggage vs the now-standard 30 kgs on Gulf-based

6. Clunky TG web-site & reward-systems

7. Some Gulf-based now fly direct into Phuket, as well as BKK

I'm sure other posters can suggest more, but will this do, to start with ?

Edited February 26, 2014 by Ricardo

[deepcell]

Thai Airways has pretty good service, but is to dam expensive, if you are travelling on a budget, for sure is not the airline you are going to choose. And... If you compare with another airlines, the price is +20%. The solution is, keep the standard, but lower the prices, will get more and more customers again. Remember that most people in the world are travelling on a budget!

[geriatrickid]

Be more competitive.

Lower your prices.

Offer better service.

Then people will start using your services again.

not surprised, service lousey, false advertisment, bought a "business class" ticket, ended up in "thai smile" with three seats across! was told that was the new business class!

That new business class was pioneered by LH and SR on their domestic EU routes. The changes in the premium class seats on Smile have been well known for over a year. If you want to see the future of domestic air travel on TG, have a look at Air Canada, the top rated airline in North America. TG is using the AC Rouge unit's business model, with the difference that TG's ground service, and inflight experience is still better than AC's. If you want to see what the future of business class seating is, look to Lufthansa and Swiss. Not very comfortable. That approach is now being implemented on AC metal much to the displeasure of AC pax. The new HD B777 config is driving the premium class pax batty. However, AC went from an airline bleeding money to having posted its largest profits ever, last year. That is the direction of TG.

[Ricardo]

Give it a try Thai, if me and Ricardo think it's "on" it'll be a winner, 2wice a week Midnight ex Bkk arrive morning 6am Man.

Try an A340, then use a 777er later if need be.

Just to add that, in a couple-of-years' time, Thai would be able to put their new more-efficient B787s onto this long/thin route !

Edited February 26, 2014 by Ricardo

[bigbamboo]

Be more competitive.

Lower your prices.

Offer better service.

Then people will start using your services again.

TG has done just that by withdrawing from the competitive domestic market and creating the low cost Smile operating unit. It will take a year or so until that significant change shows up in the finances. However, in respect to wages, and pension/benefit costs, the lower costs are all being demonstrated.

In the past year, the number of complaints in respect to the quality standard setters of Ethihad/Emirates/Qatar have increased. Those airlines that once made everyone else look terrible are now having their own problems as their hubs have exceeded capacity and on time performance falls.

For more competition, TG must reduce its seat pitch to 29"/39" and reduce its seat width just like the other carriers. By cramming at least 20-50 more passengers on long haul, it will make more money. It should also reduce its F&B and match the offerings of other premium long haul carriers. The pax do not need edible food. Give them macaroni and cheese like on some carriers. Start charging for every extra. Reduce the baggage allowance.

Yes by all means, cut the fares in economy by 20%, but start charging the economy class passengers for anything extra just like Air Asia.

And then they'll put their prices up again.

[cracker1]

Two or Three times each year I travel with Thai Business Class to a Southern Hemisphere country return. In the last few journeys I have sat near and talked to Thai passengers who admit they are travelling free and have "connections". On one occasion in 2013 I spoke with a couple across the aisle who were getting very special service from the staff, and the man was a military person with his wife. Turned out later there were about 8 of them on the flight, so perhaps a free ride.

On another return from South to Bangkok I sat next to a young man who was schooling in my country and returning for the holidays. It was obvious from our conversations about his family and his car and connections with others that I had read about in the news,that he was financially comfortable. He told me that when he arrived in Bangkok he would not need to show immigration card or passport and on arrival he was met by Immigration Police with an electric cart and driven outside to the Bentley.

I suspect corruption could well be the demise of Thai Air.

I also agree with many others that they seem to be pricing themselves off the market.

[JohnThailandJohn]

Processional airline aviation management teams employed and not necessarily Thai nationals, no political influence plus the complete banning of the freebies regarding seats for self important people whose requests or actually in truth ''demands'' have led to many other fare paying passengers having their bookings and seats rearranged.

The current management team like its predecessors over the years couldn't hold their own in the males restroom.

Up until about 5 years ago they had 40 straight years of profit.

[ginjag]

Be more competitive.

Lower your prices.

Offer better service.

Then people will start using your services again.

TG has done just that by withdrawing from the competitive domestic market and creating the low cost Smile operating unit. It will take a year or so until that significant change shows up in the finances. However, in respect to wages, and pension/benefit costs, the lower costs are all being demonstrated.

In the past year, the number of complaints in respect to the quality standard setters of Ethihad/Emirates/Qatar have increased. Those airlines that once made everyone else look terrible are now having their own problems as their hubs have exceeded capacity and on time performance falls.

For more competition, TG must reduce its seat pitch to 29"/39" and reduce its seat width just like the other carriers. By cramming at least 20-50 more passengers on long haul, it will make more money. It should also reduce its F&B and match the offerings of other premium long haul carriers. The pax do not need edible food. Give them macaroni and cheese like on some carriers. Start charging for every extra. Reduce the baggage allowance.

Yes by all means, cut the fares in economy by 20%, but start charging the economy class passengers for anything extra just like Air Asia.

GK, You quoted "created a LOW COST Smile"

Not low cost. genuine Udon to Swampy Smile, 5 persons cost me over 14,000 baht. Nok 9,000 baht A.Asia 7,750baht

We took the Smile, as the others go into D.M. this is why the price is not low cost---it is called monopoly.

You note the other operator competing with A.Asia --Nok is part Thai Airways unless I have to be corrected.

Because of Smile and it's prices they are bolstering up Thai at the minute.

Please correct me if I am wrong--sure you will.

[Danbit]

Thai is not so bad. Emirates have low costs due to low paid staff. Thai have direct connections to Europe, Emirates give you a stay in Dubai for 3-5 hours.

Frequent flyer program is second to none with Thai. Emirates is second to all. Premium class to Scandinavia is fine but they have increased the price too much but they have limited space on 777. I just changed to EVA air and get a connection from Amsterdam, they have a Elite Class, not so nice as the Thai Premium in 777 but similar to that in 747 and 30% lower price. Egypt Air low price on Business but only from Europe the other way high price. I wonder why, Egypt is fine for the kidneys no halal alcohol.

I did have a fight with Thai, in the member handbook did they have info about the miles needed to a free ticket BKK-CPH-BKK but they took much more after a 2 weeks fight did they mention it in the handbook. They showed it on another page - it is not rocket science to make a home page correct.. Thai have some low level staff in management.

Telephone service is again second to all, I normally gives up and get answers from Thai in Copenhagen. there are too many answering machines in Bangkok.

Thai have too many free riders from the official Thailand, let them pay. If some retire they take their staff and get a office and it costs a lot of money, could be the have some corruption too.

I did try Air Asia but only once, wrong airport (for me) queue and difficult to understand what to pay for. staff OK but to low pitch, only use able for short trips. Thai could offer a discount price for vacant seats in Business and First just like Emirates do from time to time, it is pure profit. Just offer it at check in. I still like Thai and hope they can generate some profit. At my last flight from Dubai to Bangkok they welcomed me with Mr. Jensen, very surpriced OK with 5% more.

It upset me a little that they offer so much for eg. American Express credit cards but only issued in Thailand - I am not able to get one, I do not work in Thailand but stay here 8 months, so with American Express use Singapore Airlines there you get the miles. Now Emirates offer miles from American Express $ cards.

Few adjustments from Thai and they can operate with profit

[Chicog]

Given the strategic advantages that Thailand Airways has over other global airlines, there is no excuse for failure on that level.

Tell me what strategic advantages they have over Qatar, Etihad and Emirates. Go on.

Thai Advantages

1. No need to divert and change planes in a Gulf hub, saves at least 2-3 hours on a European-flight, provided they can get the loads & match the prices.

2. Thai food & language-spoken all-the-way

3. Star Alliance

Cons

1. Gulf-based offer more destinations in each European country

2. Gulf-based sometimes offer higher daily frequency

3. Cost of carrying fuel for a 10/12-hour flight instead of 2 5/6-hour flights

4. Older fleet, and it often shows

5. 23 kgs of hold-luggage vs the now-standard 30 kgs on Gulf-based

6. Clunky TG web-site & reward-systems

7. Some Gulf-based now fly direct into Phuket, as well as BKK

I'm sure other posters can suggest more, but will this do, to start with ?

I can add some more cons.

8. Labour costs in the Middle East are probably comparable because there is no income tax.

9. Operating costs are significantly lower because they are subsidised by the government.

10. Fuel costs are significantly lower.

I was actually going to compare prices on Moxtravel.com but I notice their website is down; one hopes that is temporary!

[ginjag]

Thai is not so bad. Emirates have low costs due to low paid staff. Thai have direct connections to Europe, Emirates give you a stay in Dubai for 3-5 hours.

Frequent flyer program is second to none with Thai. Emirates is second to all. Premium class to Scandinavia is fine but they have increased the price too much but they have limited space on 777. I just changed to EVA air and get a connection from Amsterdam, they have a Elite Class, not so nice as the Thai Premium in 777 but similar to that in 747 and 30% lower price. Egypt Air low price on Business but only from Europe the other way high price. I wonder why, Egypt is fine for the kidneys no halal alcohol.

I did have a fight with Thai, in the member handbook did they have info about the miles needed to a free ticket BKK-CPH-BKK but they took much more after a 2 weeks fight did they mention it in the handbook. They showed it on another page - it is not rocket science to make a home page correct.. Thai have some low level staff in management.

Telephone service is again second to all, I normally gives up and get answers from Thai in Copenhagen. there are too many answering machines in Bangkok.

Thai have too many free riders from the official Thailand, let them pay. If some retire they take their staff and get a office and it costs a lot of money, could be the have some corruption too.

I did try Air Asia but only once, wrong airport (for me) queue and difficult to understand what to pay for. staff OK but to low pitch, only use able for short trips. Thai could offer a discount price for vacant seats in Business and First just like Emirates do from time to time, it is pure profit. Just offer it at check in. I still like Thai and hope they can generate some profit. At my last flight from Dubai to Bangkok they welcomed me with Mr. Jensen, very surpriced OK with 5% more.

It upset me a little that they offer so much for eg. American Express credit cards but only issued in Thailand - I am not able to get one, I do not work in Thailand but stay here 8 months, so with American Express use Singapore Airlines there you get the miles. Now Emirates offer miles from American Express $ cards.

Few adjustments from Thai and they can operate with profit

Dubai and Abu Dhabi---about 2 hours on some less-pick you flight---(change for Manchester)--- No probs whatsoever. healthy leg stretch---

[cliffly]

Thai used to be so good 10 years ago...

The fall is monumental.

I will not even fly with them anymore.

I find the journey is always HOT, Thai's don't like air con but what about the customers?

The planes are ageing.

Service is bad.

Prices are non competitive.

I worry about safety with them now.

Corrupt company it seems if all reported is true.

It is in urgent need of a huge refit from the ground up.

[mercman24]

Flew with Tha air December 2012 for £650, no problem non-stop, enquired for December 2012 quoted £1244, so another lost customer there then lol !! flew Etihad and costs saved payed for my Hotel for nearly one month.

[Dogmatix]

Be more competitive.

Lower your prices.

Offer better service.

Then people will start using your services again.

I still use THAI for redeeming air miles but that's about it nowadays. I have even given up using their domestic routes since they made them Thai Smile which I don't like.

[rreddin]

Be more competitive.

Lower your prices.

Offer better service.

Then people will start using your services again.

Privatisation is the only way to save this airline.

[rreddin]

Be more competitive.

Lower your prices.

Offer better service.

Then people will start using your services again.

..and re-launch the BKK-ATH route..

Couldn't they get a foothold into Manchester ??---Emirates and Etihad Turkish etc all doing well, WHY should they go there ?? they have the edge--NON STOP.

Why would they fly to the rainy city when they only have one direct flight a day to London using a 747? The A380 flight to London is actually to Frankfurt, where you have to change aircraft on a route share to Heathrow.

[Mises]

Given the strategic advantages that Thailand Airways has over other global airlines, there is no excuse for failure on that level.

Tell me what strategic advantages they have over Qatar, Etihad and Emirates. Go on.

You don't have to wake up halfway between London and Bangkok, queue up for yet another security and wait 3 hours for the next flight.

[ponchi]

you see !!

this is what the shinawatra family do to my country.

now the THAI airline have the problem too !!

[Yahooka]

I always fly with Thai direct from Norway and their tickets are cheaper than most of their competitors.But I agree they where much better before.

[belg]

glad to hear it is not about mismanagement, too high prices that people book with other airlines and stuff

it is all not their fault, so face is saved

lets blame it on currency mismanagement, the protests & others

thainess, you got to love it

[geriatrickid]

GK, You quoted "created a LOW COST Smile"

Not low cost. genuine Udon to Swampy Smile, 5 persons cost me over 14,000 baht. Nok 9,000 baht A.Asia 7,750baht

We took the Smile, as the others go into D.M. this is why the price is not low cost---it is called monopoly.

You note the other operator competing with A.Asia --Nok is part Thai Airways unless I have to be corrected.

Because of Smile and it's prices they are bolstering up Thai at the minute.

Please correct me if I am wrong--sure you will.

I have made the point previously that costs are much higher at BKK vs. DMK.

Here's why;

- Landing fees (Did you know that Air Asia received an indirect subsidy when its landing fees were significantly reduced over 3 years?)

- Fuel costs (Did you know that tarmac delays and congestion which can add 10-30 minutes to a flight depending on the time of day cost the airlines at BKK a lot? Did you know that domestic flights are put into holding patterns and delays as international flights, get priority because their fuel loads are more critical?)

An airline flying out of BKK has to charge more just to offset the aforementioned costs. This one of the reasons why Bangkok Airways has higher fares.

Air Asia did not want to be at DMK as it did not fit its cost structure. Thai Smile has to be at BKK because it is a feeder airline. It provides baggage transfer services, while Nok and Air Asia do not. Interline transfers, lounges and other services all add a cost.

Nok Air is not a part of Thai Airways. Thai does have an investment stake in Nok. This stake is to be reduced over time.

Smile is not "bolstering up" TG. Rather, the unprofitable domestic unit was carved out of TG International. As much as you may not like it, TG has copied Air Canada, Austrian, Swiss, Singapore and Lufthansa. No one wants to pay high airfares, but let's face it, the domestic airfares are ridiculously low. I can purchase a flight to Ubon or Udon from BKK in "business for 3200 baht. A similar type of flight in North America or the EU would cost 12,000-20,000 baht. I flew to Nahkon Si Thammarat RT in both Air Asia and Nok economy and it cost me about 2400 baht. NA and EU airlines were once cheap like that. Then the carriers started going bankrupt. There will eventually be a shakeout in the Thai market.

[ginjag]

GK, You quoted "created a LOW COST Smile"

Not low cost. genuine Udon to Swampy Smile, 5 persons cost me over 14,000 baht. Nok 9,000 baht A.Asia 7,750baht

We took the Smile, as the others go into D.M. this is why the price is not low cost---it is called monopoly.

You note the other operator competing with A.Asia --Nok is part Thai Airways unless I have to be corrected.

Because of Smile and it's prices they are bolstering up Thai at the minute.

Please correct me if I am wrong--sure you will.

I have made the point previously that costs are much higher at BKK vs. DMK.

Here's why;

- Landing fees (Did you know that Air Asia received an indirect subsidy when its landing fees were significantly reduced over 3 years?)

- Fuel costs (Did you know that tarmac delays and congestion which can add 10-30 minutes to a flight depending on the time of day cost the airlines at BKK a lot? Did you know that domestic flights are put into holding patterns and delays as international flights, get priority because their fuel loads are more critical?)

An airline flying out of BKK has to charge more just to offset the aforementioned costs. This one of the reasons why Bangkok Airways has higher fares.

Air Asia did not want to be at DMK as it did not fit its cost structure. Thai Smile has to be at BKK because it is a feeder airline. It provides baggage transfer services, while Nok and Air Asia do not. Interline transfers, lounges and other services all add a cost.

Nok Air is not a part of Thai Airways. Thai does have an investment stake in Nok. This stake is to be reduced over time.

Smile is not "bolstering up" TG. Rather, the unprofitable domestic unit was carved out of TG International. As much as you may not like it, TG has copied Air Canada, Austrian, Swiss, Singapore and Lufthansa. No one wants to pay high airfares, but let's face it, the domestic airfares are ridiculously low. I can purchase a flight to Ubon or Udon from BKK in "business for 3200 baht. A similar type of flight in North America or the EU would cost 12,000-20,000 baht. I flew to Nahkon Si Thammarat RT in both Air Asia and Nok economy and it cost me about 2400 baht. NA and EU airlines were once cheap like that. Then the carriers started going bankrupt. There will eventually be a shakeout in the Thai market.

I have had no delays with Air Asia, or with Thai Smile from Udon.

I have noted 1 thousand times by you GK that costs are higher at Swampy---I do not speak about that point, I speak about the difference in price it being way over the top. 3,000 baht Smile---1,500 or even faar less with Air Asia.

55 minutes flight who the hell wants food, and luxury for that journey.

Bangkok Airways is half the price of Smile to BKK---Air Asia is half the price of Bangkok Airways if booked on line.-to D M

Why would anyone unless he has business money to burn pay for business class for 55 mins.

Thai Airways has to charge near double at times than say Emirates to fly out of BKK. I thought you said costs were higher at that airport ???

All the other SAGA have heard before, just fill in rubbish even if correct.

approx. 200 passengers on each Smile and Air Asia------add up the double fare for Smile they need this for extra expenses ???

My friends just returned to BKK from Udon with Bangkok Airways had extra baggage but only 5 kilos hand allowed---A.Asia 7 kilos.

They had super food in the departure area food on board with drinks, on time. fore 2 tickets near the same price as 1 with Thai Smile, both going to BKK

What is your comment on that---???? suppose Bangkok Airways pays less than Smile to land at BKK.

If you do comment on a return post-please do NOT tell me about flights that are not in the conversation.

[smutcakes]

Given the strategic advantages that Thailand Airways has over other global airlines, there is no excuse for failure on that level.

Tell me what strategic advantages they have over Qatar, Etihad and Emirates. Go on.

Thai Advantages

1. No need to divert and change planes in a Gulf hub, saves at least 2-3 hours on a European-flight, provided they can get the loads & match the prices.

2. Thai food & language-spoken all-the-way

3. Star Alliance

Cons

1. Gulf-based offer more destinations in each European country

2. Gulf-based sometimes offer higher daily frequency

3. Cost of carrying fuel for a 10/12-hour flight instead of 2 5/6-hour flights

4. Older fleet, and it often shows

5. 23 kgs of hold-luggage vs the now-standard 30 kgs on Gulf-based

6. Clunky TG web-site & reward-systems

7. Some Gulf-based now fly direct into Phuket, as well as BKK

I'm sure other posters can suggest more, but will this do, to start with ?

I can add some more cons.

8. Labour costs in the Middle East are probably comparable because there is no income tax.

9. Operating costs are significantly lower because they are subsidised by the government.

10. Fuel costs are significantly lower.

I was actually going to compare prices on Moxtravel.com but I notice their website is down; one hopes that is temporary!

I was thinking about this, but it seems that actually even though oil is brought from the ground there, it does not translate into cheaper fuel costs. Yes the oil might be brought to the surface there, but for jet fuel it needs to be refined, which in some cases means it leaves the gulf states to be refined and is then brought back in.

A search on the net revealed that Singapore traditionally has the lowest fuel costs which is attributed to high tech refineries and low transport costs, but there is not a great deal of variance throughout.

[ginjag]

Be more competitive.

Lower your prices.

Offer better service.

Then people will start using your services again.

..and re-launch the BKK-ATH route..

Couldn't they get a foothold into Manchester ??---Emirates and Etihad Turkish etc all doing well, WHY should they go there ?? they have the edge--NON STOP.

Why would they fly to the rainy city when they only have one direct flight a day to London using a 747? The A380 flight to London is actually to Frankfurt, where you have to change aircraft on a route share to Heathrow.

IF Thai were to fly to Manchester I said.

They would fly direct from BKK using A340--777er---A380s

What has the rain got to do with passengers wanting a north destination ??

Your first sentence---BECAUSE there are people living north of LONDON---Birmingham Leicester Nottingham Manchester Liverpool Newcastle Leeds --The list goes on--That's why there is a need--population is a factor anywhere in the world.

Who would want a Frankfurt change ??? that's why my post with Recardo suggested a direct flight that could well pay off.

[Ricardo]

Why would they fly to the rainy city when they only have one direct flight a day to London using a 747? The A380 flight to London is actually to Frankfurt, where you have to change aircraft on a route share to Heathrow.

I just plugged-in a couple of random dates in March, and TG say they are flying twice-daily non-stop to London, one a B747-400 and the other an A340-600.

[ginjag]

Given the strategic advantages that Thailand Airways has over other global airlines, there is no excuse for failure on that level.

Tell me what strategic advantages they have over Qatar, Etihad and Emirates. Go on.

You don't have to wake up halfway between London and Bangkok, queue up for yet another security and wait 3 hours for the next flight.

I for one do not mind waking up after 6 hours to wait less than 2 hours before changing aircraft---healthier- circulation.

Unless you are the type straight after take off fully recline for the journey, these BED BUGS irritate me.

Isn't it terrible to walk off one flight put your hand luggage through a scanner and duty free before boarding for your next 6 hour trip. love it.

All this hassle saves me 30,000 baht. I am a cheap Charlie and love it at times.

[puck2]

Thanks Suthep doing great job destroying the nation.

Whats the sentence for Treason in Thailand?

.. to fly THAI Airways

[cliffly]

you see !!

this is what the shinawatra family do to my country.

now the THAI airline have the problem too !!

BELOW IS A DESCRIPTION OF YOU, The definition of short sighted.

The PHRASE is Short-Sighted means that someone acted without the proper preparation or planning. A short-sighted person doesn't think things through very well, and never really appreciates -or sees- the 'big picture' of the situation.

[The Deerhunter]

I still like Thai but they are getting expensive. Hope none of that 12,000,000,000 took a non-stop one-way flight to Dubai. He was appointed by everybodies' favorite whipping boy. No, Not Suthep!!!

[cybertigrou]

so expensive and food is terrible on domestic flights.