Choosing A Hot Water System

[UKJASE]

Hey Guys, we are in the process of a new build, and would like to install hot water

we would like the water to be available in 3 sinks and 3 showers in the bathrooms, one bath, and the sink in the kitchen

i went to a couple of electrical stores today, and they seemed to only have either large tanks made by stiebel eltron

or smaller instantaneous heaters around 6 - 8000 B, made by stiebel eltron, siemens etc

the smaller heaters are only suitable for one room the guy said, so we would need 4

the tank in the roof has no timer, so keeps the water hot at all hours, so i imagine is a very expensive way to provide hot water

i was hoping for a nice combi style boiler like back home, that runs on gas, and provides instant hot water, only when the taps are turned on

the different hot water points in the house would be about 8 metres away from the tank / boiler / heater, if we chose a central point in the roof

any idea what the best solution would be, and anything else i should consider please?

[bankruatsteve]

My thoughts: Having grown up in the states and being used to instant hot water, that just seemed 'normal' to me. But these days, living here for a long time, and when energy is so expensive, it just seems a ridiculous waste to keep a big tank of water hot for the few minutes during the day that it is actually needed. And, in Thailand, there are times you will get hot water whether you want it or not. There is also the issue of needing the special hot water PVC and faucets for the multi-point hot water systems. I would go for the single point on demand hot water units for every application except bath tubs/spas, the like. Cheers.

[Pib]

Just go with the instant heaters for each room you want hot water in as it provides the hot water needed and is cheaper over the long term. Like bankruatsteve said, for folks who grew up with having hot water from a central tank having such a system seems the normal thing to do, but it can be the more expensive thing to do over the long term. For people who grew up with instant heaters at select locations that seems like the normal thing. I grew up with the central heated tank thing, but I'm now perfectly happy with instant heaters for my showers only...for everything else, the cold/warm water is just fine.

[UKJASE]

yes, i want the instant hot water, and dont want a tank (as it would be inefficient); so what we want is a instant hot water heater that is big enough to serve the whole house

all we can find are little ones for about 6,000B, that are only big enough for one room

do larger systems exist in thailand, that will serve instant hot water, to multiple points, in different rooms around the house?

[ClutchClark]

My thoughts: Having grown up in the states and being used to instant hot water, that just seemed 'normal' to me. But these days, living here for a long time, and when energy is so expensive, it just seems a ridiculous waste to keep a big tank of water hot for the few minutes during the day that it is actually needed. And, in Thailand, there are times you will get hot water whether you want it or not. There is also the issue of needing the special hot water PVC and faucets for the multi-point hot water systems. I would go for the single point on demand hot water units for every application except bath tubs/spas, the like. Cheers.

I think you are confusing the term "Instant hot water". The style long popular in the US that has a tank integral to the heating element and maintains a reservoir of hot water constantly, including periods of non-use is not an "Instant" or "On Demand" system using todays terminology.

Cheers

[ClutchClark]

Just go with the instant heaters for each room you want hot water in as it provides the hot water needed and is cheaper over the long term. Like bankruatsteve said, for folks who grew up with having hot water from a central tank having such a system seems the normal thing to do, but it can be the more expensive thing to do over the long term. For people who grew up with instant heaters at select locations that seems like the normal thing. I grew up with the central heated tank thing, but I'm now perfectly happy with instant heaters for my showers only...for everything else, the cold/warm water is just fine.

Whether one system is more "efficient" than another is completely a function of typical use patterns over a 24 hour period (i.e. peak demand periods and whether showers are spread throughout the day or strictly at morning, etc), also the proximity of the heating unit to the faucet(s) and also considerations like whether a rooftop passive solar is included in the system. One must also consider the water chemistry and upstream filtration when using a reservoir system even when such a system is the more efficient option,

Cheers

[UKJASE]

Just go with the instant heaters for each room you want hot water in as it provides the hot water needed and is cheaper over the long term. Like bankruatsteve said, for folks who grew up with having hot water from a central tank having such a system seems the normal thing to do, but it can be the more expensive thing to do over the long term. For people who grew up with instant heaters at select locations that seems like the normal thing. I grew up with the central heated tank thing, but I'm now perfectly happy with instant heaters for my showers only...for everything else, the cold/warm water is just fine.

Whether one system is more "efficient" than another is completely a function of typical use patterns over a 24 hour period (i.e. peak demand periods and whether showers are spread throughout the day or strictly at morning, etc), also the proximity of the heating unit to the faucet(s) and also considerations like whether a rooftop passive solar is included in the system. One must also consider the water chemistry and upstream filtration when using a reservoir system even when such a system is the more efficient option,

Cheers

Thanks CC..... what i want then is a big on demand system, that will be enough to supply water to 4 rooms (3 bathrooms and one kitchen)

all rooms are within a few meters of each other

we are only 3 people at present, so a reservoir system would be a bit energy inefficient for our needs i think

do you know if such systems exist here? a gas system preferably, but electric would be ok too...

[Carib]

A link to some electric as well as gas fueled systems. Just scroll/look around, take a look at the commercial ones too..

http://www.luckyflame.co.th/products/electric-shower.html

Thought I had another link to a Thai company making geysers, cannot find it right now. Will post it when found.

Friends have a geyser heated water system, hanging on an outside wall shielded by a wind catch, gas bottle close by. Works as a treat.

[casualbiker]

Just one thing .. will you have an outside water tank or straight of the mains?

is yes then maybe run two tanks one in the sun and one in shade.. instant warm water. Then maybe just use one or two instant heaters.

http://www.stiebeleltronasia.com/productdetail.php?productcateid=4&producttypeid=44&productseriesid=85&id=1137

Also seems to imply multi point so I'm wondering how many for each!

Sent from my XT1032 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Edited July 6, 2014 by casualbiker

[IMHO]

Just go with the instant heaters for each room you want hot water in as it provides the hot water needed and is cheaper over the long term. Like bankruatsteve said, for folks who grew up with having hot water from a central tank having such a system seems the normal thing to do, but it can be the more expensive thing to do over the long term. For people who grew up with instant heaters at select locations that seems like the normal thing. I grew up with the central heated tank thing, but I'm now perfectly happy with instant heaters for my showers only...for everything else, the cold/warm water is just fine.

Whether one system is more "efficient" than another is completely a function of typical use patterns over a 24 hour period (i.e. peak demand periods and whether showers are spread throughout the day or strictly at morning, etc), also the proximity of the heating unit to the faucet(s) and also considerations like whether a rooftop passive solar is included in the system. One must also consider the water chemistry and upstream filtration when using a reservoir system even when such a system is the more efficient option,

Cheers

Thanks CC..... what i want then is a big on demand system, that will be enough to supply water to 4 rooms (3 bathrooms and one kitchen)

all rooms are within a few meters of each other

we are only 3 people at present, so a reservoir system would be a bit energy inefficient for our needs i think

do you know if such systems exist here? a gas system preferably, but electric would be ok too...

You can get 12kW+ on-demand heaters suitable for multiple outlets, but:

1) The house will need 3-phase electricity.

2) In our experience, the max, they can support is 2 taps/showers concurrently - above this they just don't have the flow rate, regardless of how much they can heat the water, and regardless of how big plumbing you use.

If you don't already need 3 phase for some other reason, the total cost of installing this type of heater (inc. 3 phase meter, wiring, CU etc) isn't going to be too far away from a commercial solar hot water system..

[Pattaya Lous]

Hi UKJASE,

I have installed in many houses in the UK Multipoint instantaneous gas water heaters supplying the whole house with constant hot water a very efficient way of heating water.

I am planning a similar project in my home here - Hot water for the whole house from a instantaneous Multipoint water heater fuelled by LPG (bottled gas) no electrical connections required, so no loss of hot water when the power supply goes off.

One thing to consider with this type of installation you will require a connection to mains water pressure or alternatively and what I consider to be the better option a cold water storage tank with sufficient head of pressure to operate the heater.

If you are interested send me a private message and I will explain what I am planning in more detail.

[keithkarmann]

Installed a Jacuzzi bath and was looking at electric hot water tanks and they were priced at about 15000 baht for a 150 litre tank. The if you take about six hours to heat up the water and do not get a bath then you have wasted money. I then found a gas (lpg) water heater for about 5500 baht from Home Pro plus about 2600 for the bottle and gas. The hot water is virtually instant, not sure it would supply a full house, has to be supplied by pump as village water is not sufficient pressure to operate. Depending on how hot the water is going into the heater to fill a 120 liter bath takes about 30 minutes. There is a 20 minute safety cut-out but you just turn of the water and it resets itself. My Jacuzzi bath is outside but I have piped the hot water inside to the kitchen but my girlfriend still likes to wash the dishes in cold water. I did buy a lot of copper pipe for the hot water but had trouble brazing it. In reality 50 degrees c is very hot as 36 degrees is hot enough for a bath and the blue water pipe can stand 50 degrees. So I used plastic pipe and up to now I have had no problems. Not how much a bath fill costs but I am sure it is less than 10 baht.

[kamalabob2]

I've a limited experience with observing both the installation and repairs of Stiebel Eltron multi point water heaters in Thailand. I bought five of the multi point Stiebel Eltron DHA 4/8 and one smaller single point under the counter heater. In the bedrooms, each multi point can heat two sink faucets and one shower faucet. In one case, one DHA 4/8 is mounted under a guest bathroom sink (there is no shower in this 1/2 bath) and it also heats the sink tap and shower in the guest bedroom suite bathroom. The guest bathroom and the guest bedroom suite bathroom are adjoining rooms so the pipe run is reasonable. In the kitchen one unit heats two of the kitchen sink faucets.You may not want to over estimate the plumbing ability of who generally installs your water lines. Most house builders do not sub out the water pipe or water heater installation process. Some stores have a fair set fee to install a typical in the shower wall unit, and they might do the multi point under the sink unit. But the actual supply line to the unit and then hot water pipe to each of up to three faucets or shower heads or a bathtub, need a level of integrity and skill not always found in the Kingdom. There are certain water pipes PPR or even copper, readily available that will handle hot water if you look around in a store with staff who have better knowledge of water pipes. The integrity of a weld on copper is one thing, the connection on the PPR pipe is a diffeent issue. The warranty you see on the unit might state 5 years, but that is only for the heating unit. Other parts failed in the first 5 years on three of my six Stiebel Eltron multi point heaters. The service team of Stiebel Eltron wanted a reasonable fee to travel to Buriram Province. But for a modest fee I had a local pump shop "plumber" properly remove the broken units and I shipped the three units to Stiebel Eltron in Bangkok. They sent a price quote for the non warranty repair, it was fair enough, I did the bank transfer and then they shipped the repair units back to our home. The same local pump shop man returned and he re-installed the three heaters. Siemens, Panasonic, AEG, and Toshiba are four of many brands with multi point heaters widely available. If I was to do it again, I would pay closer attention to the warranty details, see if a local shop actually had parts for any brand I was considering, since I would have preferred the after the warranty repairs to have been done in our home and not the week to ten day back and forth to Bangkok shuffle. I am guessing that Bangkok or Phuket would have a service center for most major brands, and in home service both during and after the warranty could be possible without the travel fee. But if you were considering a central type water heater, then I hope you have better "plumbers" than I had in 2008. One place even major name brand home builders cut corners, not to mention a typical local house builder, is on what valve they install for your water outlets. The build quality of simple valves and warranty of the valves can vary in Thailand. I installed VRH stainless steel valves and they have done well. I have also installed ANA brass valves and they seem like a strong product. Both VRH and ANA offer serious warranties on the valve.

The best thing I did was to have a "wine cellar" dug under the downstairs bathrooms. All the pipes were easy to access, water supply and waste pipes, in a crawl space that is about 5 foot high with a light mounted. No wine down there, but it has made fixing poorly installed shower drain and toilet pipes much easier. The "typical" bury the water pipes under the tile is not the only option. So when the original house builder pipe staff hooked a Toto urinal waste line to a shower drain it caused smells. Going under the house in the "wine cellar" we could see the problem and easily fix the issue. I should have gone under the house prior to the last payment to builder to see with my own eyes the pipes were going the right places. Build in haste and repent at your leisure.

Edited July 25, 2014 by kamalabob2

[JesseFrank]

I have individual multipoint water heaters in every bathroom and kitchen. My water tank is undergrounds and in the past 2 years i have never switched on the breakers from the heaters, other than the one for the kitchen sink.

When I lived in Pattaya where the water came straight from the company, I couldn't shower without a heater.

[Pattaya Lous]

Installed a Jacuzzi bath and was looking at electric hot water tanks and they were priced at about 15000 baht for a 150 litre tank. The if you take about six hours to heat up the water and do not get a bath then you have wasted money. I then found a gas (lpg) water heater for about 5500 baht from Home Pro plus about 2600 for the bottle and gas. The hot water is virtually instant, not sure it would supply a full house, has to be supplied by pump as village water is not sufficient pressure to operate. Depending on how hot the water is going into the heater to fill a 120 liter bath takes about 30 minutes. There is a 20 minute safety cut-out but you just turn of the water and it resets itself. My Jacuzzi bath is outside but I have piped the hot water inside to the kitchen but my girlfriend still likes to wash the dishes in cold water. I did buy a lot of copper pipe for the hot water but had trouble brazing it. In reality 50 degrees c is very hot as 36 degrees is hot enough for a bath and the blue water pipe can stand 50 degrees. So I used plastic pipe and up to now I have had no problems. Not how much a bath fill costs but I am sure it is less than 10 baht.

Please do not buy from DIY centers you are wasting your time and money the heaters are designed for small demand applications; not Jacuzzi baths or high demand showers and will only supply one outlet at any one time.

You are giving dangerous advice when you describe how to override the safety cut-out it is fitted to the heaters for the purpose of preventing a dangerous build up concentration of products of combustion from the flueing system and should not tampered with or overridden.

It is best practice to install protected copper pipes they are easily joined by the method of soft soldering using correct flux and lead free solder (not brazing).

There is only one LPG multi point water heater available in Thailand that has adequate performance for the purpose of supplying a bath and high performance showers 32L/min @ 50deg C - can fill a 120L bath in under four mins.

I have just recently installed one into my own house and supervised the installation of a second into a high end new build property. The property developer was so impressed with the performance and economy he has change the design in seven new properties so that multi point gas water heaters can be installed I am to supervise all of the design and installation. I will report back TVF when the work is complete for anybody who is interested.

It is very important that the planning of an installation is correct in the early stages of a new build - pipe sizing - water supply - and location of appliance are the key to a good trouble free installation that will maintain top performance for many years, and save you money in running costs.

[keithkarmann]

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Installed a Jacuzzi bath and was looking at electric hot water tanks and they were priced at about 15000 baht for a 150 litre tank. The if you take about six hours to heat up the water and do not get a bath then you have wasted money. I then found a gas (lpg) water heater for about 5500 baht from Home Pro plus about 2600 for the bottle and gas. The hot water is virtually instant, not sure it would supply a full house, has to be supplied by pump as village water is not sufficient pressure to operate. Depending on how hot the water is going into the heater to fill a 120 liter bath takes about 30 minutes. There is a 20 minute safety cut-out but you just turn of the water and it resets itself. My Jacuzzi bath is outside but I have piped the hot water inside to the kitchen but my girlfriend still likes to wash the dishes in cold water. I did buy a lot of copper pipe for the hot water but had trouble brazing it. In reality 50 degrees c is very hot as 36 degrees is hot enough for a bath and the blue water pipe can stand 50 degrees. So I used plastic pipe and up to now I have had no problems. Not how much a bath fill costs but I am sure it is less than 10 baht.

Please do not buy from DIY centers you are wasting your time and money the heaters are designed for small demand applications; not Jacuzzi baths or high demand showers and will only supply one outlet at any one time.

You are giving dangerous advice when you describe how to override the safety cut-out it is fitted to the heaters for the purpose of preventing a dangerous build up concentration of products of combustion from the flueing system and should not tampered with or overridden.

It is best practice to install protected copper pipes they are easily joined by the method of soft soldering using correct flux and lead free solder (not brazing).

There is only one LPG multi point water heater available in Thailand that has adequate performance for the purpose of supplying a bath and high performance showers 32L/min @ 50deg C - can fill a 120L bath in under four mins.

I have just recently installed one into my own house and supervised the installation of a second into a high end new build property. The property developer was so impressed with the performance and economy he has change the design in seven new properties so that multi point gas water heaters can be installed I am to supervise all of the design and installation. I will report back TVF when the work is complete for anybody who is interested.

It is very important that the planning of an installation is correct in the early stages of a new build - pipe sizing - water supply - and location of appliance are the key to a good trouble free installation that will maintain top performance for many years, and save you money in running costs.

I guess we are all on a learning curve so I have took your advice as I thought it was just a timer to prevent people leaving the hot water running and forgetting about it. I did not realise by turning off the water after it ran cold and turning it back on again that I was overriding anything. So now before it cuts out after 20 minutes I turn off the water and turning it back on again so it never cuts out again. Is there a recommended time if It cuts out before I am allowed to turn it back on again? The heater is installed outside well away from the house so hopefully there should not be too much of a dangerous build up concentration of products of combustion.

I only live in a rented property so I could not justify spending many more times what I spent on a more expensive system but I do feel safer in the bath than I do in the showers that are probably not earthed like the four levels of protection I have used with the Jacuzzi Bath.

Thanks for the advice.

[Pattaya Lous]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

Installed a Jacuzzi bath and was looking at electric hot water tanks and they were priced at about 15000 baht for a 150 litre tank. The if you take about six hours to heat up the water and do not get a bath then you have wasted money. I then found a gas (lpg) water heater for about 5500 baht from Home Pro plus about 2600 for the bottle and gas. The hot water is virtually instant, not sure it would supply a full house, has to be supplied by pump as village water is not sufficient pressure to operate. Depending on how hot the water is going into the heater to fill a 120 liter bath takes about 30 minutes. There is a 20 minute safety cut-out but you just turn of the water and it resets itself. My Jacuzzi bath is outside but I have piped the hot water inside to the kitchen but my girlfriend still likes to wash the dishes in cold water. I did buy a lot of copper pipe for the hot water but had trouble brazing it. In reality 50 degrees c is very hot as 36 degrees is hot enough for a bath and the blue water pipe can stand 50 degrees. So I used plastic pipe and up to now I have had no problems. Not how much a bath fill costs but I am sure it is less than 10 baht.

Please do not buy from DIY centers you are wasting your time and money the heaters are designed for small demand applications; not Jacuzzi baths or high demand showers and will only supply one outlet at any one time.

You are giving dangerous advice when you describe how to override the safety cut-out it is fitted to the heaters for the purpose of preventing a dangerous build up concentration of products of combustion from the flueing system and should not tampered with or overridden.

It is best practice to install protected copper pipes they are easily joined by the method of soft soldering using correct flux and lead free solder (not brazing).

There is only one LPG multi point water heater available in Thailand that has adequate performance for the purpose of supplying a bath and high performance showers 32L/min @ 50deg C - can fill a 120L bath in under four mins.

I have just recently installed one into my own house and supervised the installation of a second into a high end new build property. The property developer was so impressed with the performance and economy he has change the design in seven new properties so that multi point gas water heaters can be installed I am to supervise all of the design and installation. I will report back TVF when the work is complete for anybody who is interested.

It is very important that the planning of an installation is correct in the early stages of a new build - pipe sizing - water supply - and location of appliance are the key to a good trouble free installation that will maintain top performance for many years, and save you money in running costs.

I guess we are all on a learning curve so I have took your advice as I thought it was just a timer to prevent people leaving the hot water running and forgetting about it. I did not realise by turning off the water after it ran cold and turning it back on again that I was overriding anything. So now before it cuts out after 20 minutes I turn off the water and turning it back on again so it never cuts out again. Is there a recommended time if It cuts out before I am allowed to turn it back on again? The heater is installed outside well away from the house so hopefully there should not be too much of a dangerous build up concentration of products of combustion.

I only live in a rented property so I could not justify spending many more times what I spent on a more expensive system but I do feel safer in the bath than I do in the showers that are probably not earthed like the four levels of protection I have used with the Jacuzzi Bath.

Thanks for the advice.

LPG (Gas Appliances) are very safe to use if installed and maintained correctly in line with their manufacturers installation instructions.

If the appliance has been installed outside of the house your main concern is to ensure products of combustion cannot re-enter the property via doors, windows etc. when the appliance is in operation.

Products of combustion from burnt Gas or any other Fossil fuel can contain Carbon Monoxide (CO) which is poisonous to humans if the appliance has not been installed or maintained correctly.

We always install a Carbon Monoxide (CO) detector inside the property to sound an alarm before the levels of CO can build up to any significant level.

[UKJASE]

Installed a Jacuzzi bath and was looking at electric hot water tanks and they were priced at about 15000 baht for a 150 litre tank. The if you take about six hours to heat up the water and do not get a bath then you have wasted money. I then found a gas (lpg) water heater for about 5500 baht from Home Pro plus about 2600 for the bottle and gas. The hot water is virtually instant, not sure it would supply a full house, has to be supplied by pump as village water is not sufficient pressure to operate. Depending on how hot the water is going into the heater to fill a 120 liter bath takes about 30 minutes. There is a 20 minute safety cut-out but you just turn of the water and it resets itself. My Jacuzzi bath is outside but I have piped the hot water inside to the kitchen but my girlfriend still likes to wash the dishes in cold water. I did buy a lot of copper pipe for the hot water but had trouble brazing it. In reality 50 degrees c is very hot as 36 degrees is hot enough for a bath and the blue water pipe can stand 50 degrees. So I used plastic pipe and up to now I have had no problems. Not how much a bath fill costs but I am sure it is less than 10 baht.

Please do not buy from DIY centers you are wasting your time and money the heaters are designed for small demand applications; not Jacuzzi baths or high demand showers and will only supply one outlet at any one time.

You are giving dangerous advice when you describe how to override the safety cut-out it is fitted to the heaters for the purpose of preventing a dangerous build up concentration of products of combustion from the flueing system and should not tampered with or overridden.

It is best practice to install protected copper pipes they are easily joined by the method of soft soldering using correct flux and lead free solder (not brazing).

There is only one LPG multi point water heater available in Thailand that has adequate performance for the purpose of supplying a bath and high performance showers 32L/min @ 50deg C - can fill a 120L bath in under four mins.

I have just recently installed one into my own house and supervised the installation of a second into a high end new build property. The property developer was so impressed with the performance and economy he has change the design in seven new properties so that multi point gas water heaters can be installed I am to supervise all of the design and installation. I will report back TVF when the work is complete for anybody who is interested.

It is very important that the planning of an installation is correct in the early stages of a new build - pipe sizing - water supply - and location of appliance are the key to a good trouble free installation that will maintain top performance for many years, and save you money in running costs.

what is the name of the company distributing these LPG heaters Lous?

the wife and i would like to read up on them, as they may be suited to our project?