MH17: Malaysia Airlines Plane Shot Down Near Ukraine Border

[ozsamurai]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

The "leaked" passenger list.

Rust in Vrede ( Rest in Peace)

http://www.geenstijl.nl/archives/images/Passengerlist.pdf

It seems this may not entirely be true, for instance I can see no listing for Rod and Mary Burrows, who are confirmed to be on the flight by family members.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/malaysia-airlines-family-who-lost-two-members-on-flight-mh370-have-lost-two-more-on-mh17-9614230.html

RIP

Oz

[bkkjames]

Crashed MH17 flight 'was 300 miles off typical course

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/10975524/Crashed-MH17-flight-was-300-miles-off-typical-course.html

yes but why?

because it deviated 300 or so miles to avoid a storm cell in the area. Still within accepted aviation corridor.

seems plausible - just strange to fly into this area and not head south of the storm...

[Lite Beer]

New Zealand family happy to fly to Samui with Malaysian Airlines despite both air disasters

Kuala Lumpur: -- It has been announced by the Thai Airways International Public Company Limited (THAI) that all flights, both to and from Europe, have been rerouted to avoid Ukrainian airspace. The move came after a Malaysian airlines plane was apparently shot down while crossing the rebel-held country.

Flight MH17, a Boeing 777-200ER left Amsterdam’s Schiphol airport on Thursday at 12.15pm local time and was expected to arrive in Kuala Lumpur at 6.10am today local time. The crash killed 295 people.
A report in New Zealands Sun Live online said that Ohauiti resident Adele Dromgool, who arrived in Auckland last night aboard a Malaysian Airlines flight from Kuala Lumpur, said she never felt unsafe on her flights and would fly with the airline again.
“I went to Southeast Asia, where I did two or three flights with them [Malaysian Airlines] over two weeks,” says Adele. “They were lovely staff and great food and service – and I didn’t feel unsafe at all. “I would fly them today.” Adele says today’s crash is unlucky for the airline. “It was a tragic incident, but a bit out of control I suppose.”
malaysia air disaster Papamoa resident Tyler Rickard said this second incident hasn’t changed her family’s plan to fly with Malaysian Airlines to Thailand in September. Tyler’s family of six will fly from Auckland to Koh Samui on September 6 for a holiday and return via the same airline on September 16.
“We’re flying Malaysian airlines and as far as I’m aware not planning on switching,” says Tyler.
“I think it seems like today’s incident was probably more a result of flying through a bad area than a specific fault of Malaysian airlines; and although they wouldn’t be my airline of choice, I’m not going to change flights because of it.”
Tyler says today’s crash and the disappearance of MH370 – which lost contact with air traffic control on March 8, 2014 and hasn’t been recovered – are freak incidents. “I think at the end of the day they’re freak, one-off incidents and don’t necessarily reflect the standard of the airline as a whole.
“I think it’s really unfortunate for them that they’ve had two horrific incidents quite close together because it gives them a really bad rep [reputation] but I’m not going to wrap myself in bubble wrap because of it.
Papamoa resident Hamish Smith has return airfares to Paris with Malaysian Airlines on September 10-October 10 and would like to hear from the company.
He booked flights about two weeks after MH370 disappeared in March.
“It’s a little bit worrying because it’s the same company – so is it something to do with the company or not? But I think it’s just a coincidence. “It would be nice if Malaysian Airlines sent me an email or something just to reassure us – something on their behalf.”
Travelcom Tauranga’s Roger Miller hasn’t had any clients reacting negatively or wanting to change airlines after this morning’s crash. “Not at this stage, we had people take off toady no problem,” says Roger.
“I can’t see why they would [change airlines] it’s just unfortunate I’s happened. It could have happened to any airline couldn’t it?”
House of Travel Papamoa declined to comment, as did United Travel.
Malaysian Airlines has established a helpline in Kuala Lumpur concerned family members are also encouraged to call on +603 7884 1234.
The airline confirms it received notification from Ukrainian ATC it had lost contact with flight MH17 at 1415 (GMT) at 30km from Tamak waypoint, about 50km from the Russia-Ukraine border.
Prime Minister Najib Razak says Malaysia Airlines confirmed the aircraft didn’t make a distress call.
“The Government of Malaysia is dispatching a special flight to Kiev, carrying a Special Malaysia Disaster Assistance and Rescue Team, as well as a medical team.”

-- Samui Times 2014-07-19

[chubby]

yeah, couldn't happen 3 times, that would be unlucky

brave kiwi's there are , could've flown east china airlines

New Zealand family happy to fly to Samui with Malaysian Airlines despite both air disasters

[zydeco]

mailto:?subject=Self-proclaimed Separatist Leader Arrives at Malaysia Airlines Crash Site on NBCNews.com&body=From NBCNews.com... %0D%0A%0D%0ASelf-proclaimed Separatist Leader Arrives at Malaysia Airlines Crash Site%0D%0Ahttp://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/ukraine-plane-crash/self-proclaimed-separatist-leader-arrives-malaysia-airlines-crash-site-n158886

Like a scene from a B movie: Separatist Leader Alexandr Borodaj with his entourage at the crash scene.........

According to CNN, they arrived drunk on the scene. So, not just a bunch of oafs. But a bunch of drunken oafs.

[MJCM]

What if the cure for HIV/AIDS was on MH17?

Please tell me that you're having a laugh.

There were many HIV/AIDS researchers on MH17, one hundred or so the news is saying. They were on their way to an AIDS conference in Australia. This may have a big impact on HIV/AIDS research.

Why would anyone laugh about this?

+1

@wooloo, start reading http://www.businessinsider.com/hiv-researchers-killed-on-malaysia-mh-17-2014-7

And especially the part about Joep Lange.

Sent from my iPad so Please excuse any typos

[orosee]

What if the cure for HIV/AIDS was on MH17?

Please tell me that you're having a laugh.

There were many HIV/AIDS researchers on MH17, one hundred or so the news is saying. They were on their way to an AIDS conference in Australia. This may have a big impact on HIV/AIDS research.

Why would anyone laugh about this?

+1

@wooloo, start reading http://www.businessinsider.com/hiv-researchers-killed-on-malaysia-mh-17-2014-7

And especially the part about Joep Lange.

Sent from my iPad so Please excuse any typos

Perhaps the question was oddly formulated. Conspiracy nuts that went silent after MH370 news died out have already zeroed in on another theory that puts Big Pharma forward for having orchestrated the shoot-down in order to prevent a cheap miracle cure to be presented at the AIDS conference. Surely none of that should become part of this discussion, which is why such a question has to be very carefully formulated if at all.

That said, is it really that likely that top scientists keep such a discovery a secret, then pack all their research papers and files in their luggage and leave no evidence behind? At worst (assuming that a cure had been found and was about to be presented at the conference), there'd be enough research data back at the labs to retrieve that information. Hence I find this "what if" question to be highly speculative.

What if the person who'd have discovered the cure for AIDS in 20 years has just been killed in Gaza, Afghanistan, drowned before the Italian coast, decided to become a chef instead of a biologist? There are plenty of better suited forums for alternate realities.

[MJCM]

The "leaked" passenger list.

Rust in Vrede ( Rest in Peace)

http://www.geenstijl.nl/archives/images/Passengerlist.pdf

It seems this may not entirely be true, for instance I can see no listing for Rod and Mary Burrows, who are confirmed to be on the flight by family members.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/malaysia-airlines-family-who-lost-two-members-on-flight-mh370-have-lost-two-more-on-mh17-9614230.html

RIP

Oz

How I read it, is that Rod and Mary died on MH 370

"Kaylene Mann's brother Rod Burrows and sister-in-law Mary Burrows were on board Flight 370 when it vanished in March."

They now lost 2 other members of their Family.

"Maree Rizk, was killed along with 298 others on Malaysia Airlines Flight 17. Rizk and her husband Albert were travelling home from a holiday in Europe when the plane was shot down."

And these 2 are on that passenger list posted by DutchBike.

An unspeakable tragedy

Sent from my iPad so Please excuse any typos

Edited July 19, 2014 by MJCM

[MK1]

During press conference Friday evening July 18, Mas authorities rigorously defended the air-route as safe but it defies logic when this was a well known hot war-zone.

Despite what Mas have to say, given this event and the previous one, they've clearly demonstrated they’re a “risky airline” prepared to do what other airlines may not.

Singapore Airlines and Air India planes were very close by when MH17 was shot down, the majority of airliners still take this path.

Irrespective of what other airlines may do, while an area is considered a war-zone, it does not mean the possibility of being shot out of the sky may not eventuate.

If it was safe to do so before; then they would be still flying in that area today, which now this event has occurred, they're clearly not (see below Radar24-18/7/2014).

Edited July 19, 2014 by MK1

[Chicog]

Maybe you should just quit with your unnecessarily argumentative posts. It's already been known for military aircraft to fly in that area and 33,000 feet is the standard height.

Oh stop trying to find excuses for this murderous act, there are none.

[craigt3365]

Just read on the news that 80 children were on board. Horrible.

[soihok]

Tragic.

How sad.

[Dutchbike]

Cargo manifest from MH 17

http://www.malaysiaairlines.com/content/dam/malaysia-airlines/mas/PDF/MH17/MH017%20-%20Cargo%20Manifest%201.pdf

[MK1]

Cargo manifest from MH 17

http://www.malaysiaairlines.com/content/dam/malaysia-airlines/mas/PDF/MH17/MH017%20-%20Cargo%20Manifest%201.pdf

As result of the tragic loss of those on board MH370 now ‘lithium Ion batteries ‘cannot be sent on most passenger commercial flights or for that matter any type of battery via air mail postage without hazardous certification

Edited July 19, 2014 by MK1

[submaniac]

^^^?!?!?! Page 1, Commercial Cargo, item 3 "Shipment of Pot"?

[harrry]

Cargo manifest from MH 17

http://www.malaysiaairlines.com/content/dam/malaysia-airlines/mas/PDF/MH17/MH017%20-%20Cargo%20Manifest%201.pdf

Noted, that there was no ‘Lithium Ion batteries’ on the MH17 cargo manifest.

As result of the tragic loss of those on board MH370 now ‘lithium Ion batteries ‘cannot be sent on most passenger commercial flights or for that matter any type of battery via air mail postage.

What is on the last page then?

[MK1]

Cargo manifest from MH 17

http://www.malaysiaairlines.com/content/dam/malaysia-airlines/mas/PDF/MH17/MH017%20-%20Cargo%20Manifest%201.pdf

Noted, that there was no ‘Lithium Ion batteries’ on the MH17 cargo manifest.

As result of the tragic loss of those on board MH370 now ‘lithium Ion batteries ‘cannot be sent on most passenger commercial flights or for that matter any type of battery via air mail postage.

What is on the last page then?

Opps my apologies, sorry I missed the small print. Interesting that no hazardous goods notice is outlined on the AWB.

Edited July 19, 2014 by MK1

[Dutchbike]

^^^?!?!?! Page 1, Commercial Cargo, item 3 "Shipment of Pot"?

well, it left from Amsterdam..........

[Dutchbike]

here are the rest of the airwaybills:

http://www.malaysiaairlines.com/content/dam/malaysia-airlines/mas/PDF/MH17/MH017%20-%20Cargo%20Manifest%202.pdf

http://www.malaysiaairlines.com/content/dam/malaysia-airlines/mas/PDF/MH17/MH017%20-%20Cargo%20Manifest%203.pdf

http://www.malaysiaairlines.com/content/dam/malaysia-airlines/mas/PDF/MH17/MH017%20-%20Cargo%20Manifest%204.pdf

[harrry]

^^^?!?!?! Page 1, Commercial Cargo, item 3 "Shipment of Pot"?

well, it left from Amsterdam..........

http://www.lauramercier.com/store/shop/Concealers_Undercover%20Pot_prod220016

some of this?

[sunshine51]

^^^ Plus, if I read the cargo manifest correctly....2 live dogs.

Whomever did this terrible deed has now really made me

angry.

[spidermike007]

MH17 CRASH

Difficult to identify aircraft in hostile airspace

Akil Yunus

The Star

It is difficult for militant groups to determine if an aircraft flying over hostile airspace is of a civilian or military nature.

Ahmad Salman Abdul Rahim, one of the Malaysian jihadists fighting in Syria, said civilians were at great risk as militant groups did not possess the radar equipment and technology to ascertain if an air target was ’friend or foe’.

At 33,000 feet? If you are shooting down aircraft at that height it is almost guaranteed to be commercial traffic.

Mind you jihadists are by nature complete idiots.

I've flown in several military aircraft at 33,000 feet - hey, I've even flown chartered commercial jets full of fellow uniformed soldiers at - get this - 33,000 feet. A full regimental movement.

Anyway - the best that can possibly be made of this would be if someone put their hands up and said - "our mistake."

I sincerely hope it was a genuine mistake.

The thought of anyone targeting a civilian jet is beyond appalling.

Very hard for me to even consider the possibility that they could not determine whether or not this was civilian. Sounds like a lot of hot smoke being blown. And if you are not sure, why on earth would you fire the missile? Oh what the hell let's take a chance? If the weapons were supplied by Russia, Putin does bear some responsibility as they gave them the weapons without the ability to make a simple determination. It all sounds fishy to me. It does not pass a simple whiff test.

Spidermike007

[GentlemanJim]

I do not think that apportioning blame to Putin can be done on the grounds that he 'supplied' the weapons. The biggest arms dealers in the world, US, Russia, UK, Germany, France, China have supplied the arms to almost every conflict, however unsavoury. Are we so quick to blame the US for terrorist activities carried out by Al Qaida using US weapons, or that Saddams acts of barbarity were the fault of the UK, French and US.

The arms business is a dirty business no matter who is selling them. The reason we jail independent arms dealers is that the major arms companies do not like a middle man taking their profits and control of the situation. They lobby governments and we jail independents as the bad guys when in reality the multi-national arms companies are exactly the same - they just have secretary's and sales teams.

The people responsible for this - 100% no less, are the officers, agencies and men who formed the direct chain of events that led to someone pressing the button and shooting down the aircraft.

This is not the fault of MAS, nor ICAO, nor EASA nor whoever provided the weapons, it is the fault of the person that used them. When someone goes into a classroom in the US and guns down 20 kids we don't jail the shop owner that sold the weapons, we blame the guy that went into the class room and killed the kids.

The politicians are playing an even more dangerous game at the moment. The west has great interest in keeping Putin out of Ukraine, but current diplomatic actions will just simply increase his resolve. IF this was politically motivated or false flag then no stone should be left unturned to find out who and bring in the appropriate international actions and sanctions against which ever nation was responsible. IF this were the action of some barely sober pro Russian rebels (or indeed a calculated action by same) then every nation must contribute in hunting them down and making them pay including Russia. But if the tragedy was a result of the latter then politicians need to stop using the deaths of these poor men, women and children to fuel some bigger political game. These people were not part of these war games and their families have gone through/going through enough.

Between them, the US and Russia can determine exactly who is responsible, down to the men that pressed the trigger, if they would stop point scoring and carry out a truly justifiable role as 'world police' on this occasion then the perpetrators would be brought to justice quickly. Putin and the Ukraine should negotiate an immediate cease fire in this area and agree to allow Dutch and/or UN troops in to secure what remains of the wreckage and to offer the victims whatever dignity they can in recovering and caring for the bodies. The pictures of the battered and torn bodies of the children lying in the fields and wreckage on their own is truly heart breaking and should make every politician and war mongerer stop in the name of humanity even if only for two weeks.

[balo]

Call me superstitious but I will avoid booking a ticket with Malaysian after these tragic accidents.

I'm sure that they are just as safe to fly with as any other airliner, but I will think different about Malaysia airlines from now on...

[GentlemanJim]

Call me superstitious but I will avoid booking a ticket with Malaysian after these tragic accidents.

I'm sure that they are just as safe to fly with as any other airliner, but I will think different about Malaysia airlines from now on...

Your choice is your choice, but these were not accidents and superstition has no part to play in them.

I have flown first class and business with Singapore, BA, Etihad, Emirates, Qatar, Thai, Malaysian and others and whilst the condition/standard of the cabin was down the list in that their aircraft needed an upgrade/refit, the service on Malaysian was the best I have ever encountered anywhere. I have to go to LHR next month and have just booked with MAS in the only show of moral support for the company I can offer them. Until 6 months ago they were statistically one of the safest airlines in the World. Each to their own

[balo]

Looking at the cargo manifest posted above there were 5 live birds on board. Lets hope they escaped and managed to fly away to safety....

Edited July 19, 2014 by balo

[GentlemanJim]

Looking at the cargo manifest posted above there were 5 live birds on board. Lets hope they escaped and managed to fly away to safety....

Can we all take a reality check here. Someone is now angry because two dogs were killed and you are hoping 5 birds managed to fly away. Do you consider it even appropriate to make those comments whilst the burned, torn bodies of 80 children are scattered in the fields with no hope of a caring dignified funeral in sight? Not forgetting over 200 other adult humans.

[submaniac]

I think with the rapid depressurization at 33,000 feet (which birds don't fly to)...

The only consolation is that hopefully those poor souls immediately lost consciousness and didn't suffer too much.

[Tywais]

I think with the rapid depressurization at 33,000 feet (which birds don't fly to)...

The only consolation is that hopefully those poor souls immediately lost consciousness and didn't suffer too much.

There is a near certainty that the aircraft would have suffered explosive decompression due to the missile type, if one of the long range Buk class of missiles. At that altitude the time of useful consciousness is about 20 seconds. Very unlikely oxygen masks would have been deploy-able or accessible at the time. Also agree in hoping no suffering as the aircraft and parts could take up to two minutes or more to reach the ground.

[MJCM]

I think with the rapid depressurization at 33,000 feet (which birds don't fly to)...

The only consolation is that hopefully those poor souls immediately lost consciousness and didn't suffer too much.

There is a near certainty that the aircraft would have suffered explosive decompression due to the missile type, if one of the long range Buk class of missiles. At that altitude the time of useful consciousness is about 20 seconds. Very unlikely oxygen masks would have been deploy-able or accessible at the time. Also agree in hoping no suffering as the aircraft and parts could take up to two minutes or more to reach the ground.

Tywais, as usually thanks for the explanation, but reading this send a shiver down my spine, I just hope the people on board didn't suffer one bit, but the ones who did this ..... ( removed ... word )

Edited July 19, 2014 by MJCM