Do you Believe in Ghosts?

[Kitsune]

Ghosts are just confused people who don't know they are dead or don't want to accept it.

They have a very boring after life clinging to people or things that they used to know. They try desperately to communicate with everyone, but no one notices them, until they get so bored, depressed and tired, that they finally open themselves to the fact that they are dead and leave.

This is why grief should not be too long or too deep, we have to accept that people leave this world

Edited July 25, 2014 by Kitsune

[KarenBravo]

Ghosts are just confused people who don't know they are dead or don't want to accept it.

You do know that the movie Sixth Sense is just that. A movie.

[susan d]

never seen

[KarenBravo]

never seen

Really?

Very famous quote from the movie is by the child actor Joel Haley Osmont. "I see dead people. They're everywhere".

Obviously, kitsune has seen the movie, but, mistook it for a documentary.

Edited July 25, 2014 by KarenBravo

[kurnell]

I know that there is a chair under my ass because I can see and feel it. I can also take a photo of it, video it, move it around etc. I don't need to 'believe' it is there. Ghosts, gods, big foot, Nessy, Santa Claus and unicorns are all pure fantasy.

[KarenBravo]

With the faulty tools of our senses we perceive an infinitesimally small spectrum of the material and energetic worlds. Our hearing is limited to some ridiculously narrow freq range and our eyesight binds us in a very particular range. Our sensory input recreates a virtual world in our head, of what our senses say is out there, and it is time delayed. From our other scientific findings we can muse about how very much of creation we simply miss. Increasingly we grasp that there are more dimensions than we'd held- and still we assert we are master and commander. Confidentially we declare what is "not!"

I don't know if there are apparitions or not but I'd prefer to have a mind that simply said "probably," because multiple theories could explain apparitions without religion or souls. My world is richer for accepting anything is possible in nature. There's really no theory that can explain why there are no apparitions, just the rejection of other theories. "There are no apparitions" is a statement of exclusion, not explanation.

Yes, but with our science we can perceive the whole electromagnetic spectrum and detect most particles.

Yet, there isn't a single piece of scientific evidence for ghosts, spirits and the supernatural, after all this time and effort.

I agree... and yet I still prefer to keep an open mind. Nearly every story I hear about ghosts I respond 1/2 incredulous and 1/2 entertained, ...and yet.

I've an observation about our ability to perceive. We use tools to magnify the various senses we already have- no more. Perhaps that's a limitation we have as humans. But these faulty tools, designed to enable our long flight through the years, are hardly equipped for the journey we discuss now. These tools cannot yet "detect" love, or find consciousness, or discern an organism being aware from an organism that is aware that it is aware. We have to admit that the wonderful tools you describe, that are daily proving how breathtaking the world is, can hardly detect (approx) 80% of the universe.

(Physics food for thought: the most minute particles of matter blink in and out of existence x times per millisecond; curious huh? Where are they when they are not here?) When these great "detectors" you reference can tell me by what mechanism an entangled particle on the other side of the planet, or cosmos, can communicate faster than light, and evidence stimulus to its sister particle a billion miles or million years away, than you will have my attention. Indeed, these "detectors" cannot reveal all that much, when all's considered. By the way, it's an error of thought to presume that all the particles we know represent "most particles."

"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy." :-)

Your comparison between the unknown of ghosts and the unknowns of quantum mechanics is faulty logic.

We know that there are twinned particles that communicate faster than light. We just don't know the mechanics behind it.

We don't know that there are ghosts and there is certainly no hard scientific evidence for them. None whatsoever.

Something has to irrefutably exist first, before you can attempt to explain it.

Edited July 25, 2014 by KarenBravo

[arjunadawn]

With the faulty tools of our senses we perceive an infinitesimally small spectrum of the material and energetic worlds. Our hearing is limited to some ridiculously narrow freq range and our eyesight binds us in a very particular range. Our sensory input recreates a virtual world in our head, of what our senses say is out there, and it is time delayed. From our other scientific findings we can muse about how very much of creation we simply miss. Increasingly we grasp that there are more dimensions than we'd held- and still we assert we are master and commander. Confidentially we declare what is "not!"

I don't know if there are apparitions or not but I'd prefer to have a mind that simply said "probably," because multiple theories could explain apparitions without religion or souls. My world is richer for accepting anything is possible in nature. There's really no theory that can explain why there are no apparitions, just the rejection of other theories. "There are no apparitions" is a statement of exclusion, not explanation.

Yes, but with our science we can perceive the whole electromagnetic spectrum and detect most particles.

Yet, there isn't a single piece of scientific evidence for ghosts, spirits and the supernatural, after all this time and effort.

I agree... and yet I still prefer to keep an open mind. Nearly every story I hear about ghosts I respond 1/2 incredulous and 1/2 entertained, ...and yet.

I've an observation about our ability to perceive. We use tools to magnify the various senses we already have- no more. Perhaps that's a limitation we have as humans. But these faulty tools, designed to enable our long flight through the years, are hardly equipped for the journey we discuss now. These tools cannot yet "detect" love, or find consciousness, or discern an organism being aware from an organism that is aware that it is aware. We have to admit that the wonderful tools you describe, that are daily proving how breathtaking the world is, can hardly detect (approx) 80% of the universe.

(Physics food for thought: the most minute particles of matter blink in and out of existence x times per millisecond; curious huh? Where are they when they are not here?) When these great "detectors" you reference can tell me by what mechanism an entangled particle on the other side of the planet, or cosmos, can communicate faster than light, and evidence stimulus to its sister particle a billion miles or million years away, than you will have my attention. Indeed, these "detectors" cannot reveal all that much, when all's considered. By the way, it's an error of thought to presume that all the particles we know represent "most particles."

"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy." :-)

Your comparison between the unknown of ghosts and the unknowns of quantum mechanics is faulty logic.

We know that there are twinned particles that communicate faster than light. We just don't know the mechanics behind it.

We don't know that there are ghosts and there is certainly no hard scientific evidence for them. None whatsoever.

Something has to irrefutably exist first, before you can attempt to explain it.

It's rare that someone both declares me wrong and proves me right in their text. Declaring faulty logic does not makes it so. My premise, inference, and conclusion remains valid- as you later suggest. (First, I've no idea if their are "ghosts" only all the brightest meditators who've existed have declared so- and this remains suggestive for me).

The assertion that "something had to irrefutably exist first, before [you] can attempt to explain it" only demonstrates how far apart me- and all of the scientific community- are from your point. I'd like to presume it was late, or early, and you hadn't re read this post above. Instead of explaining how the entire scientific method is 100% contrary to your above point I'll simply note the largest experiment (gamble) in history was predicated on pen and paper- a theory- not something that [irrefutably exist]ed (gosh, that'd take us back to the dark ages). The LHC cost many billions of dollars to both create black holes (theoretical) and search for Higgs boson (theoretical).

I enjoy this talk. However, if I'm so far apart from the one person here I thought I was syncing with I should return to the garden. Thank you, Karenbravo.

Edited July 25, 2014 by arjunadawn

[KarenBravo]

I have expressed myself badly. What I should have said was that a phenomenon has to exist first before we can attempt to explain it.

A theory is made and compared to the natural world to see if it works. For quantum mechanics to work, it is predictive. The theory was first, the proof second.

How does this relate to ghosts? There is no explanation for ghosts, nor, is an explanation needed as in quantum mechanics (ie. mass).

If ghosts do need an explanation, then so do sirens, angels and dragons.

Most people believed in magic and witch-craft once. I lump- the belief in ghosts with those two examples.

Edited July 25, 2014 by KarenBravo

[Kitsune]

Ghosts are just confused people who don't know they are dead or don't want to accept it.

You do know that the movie Sixth Sense is just that. A movie.

I don't know I have not seen it

I think we should all grow out of Hollywood mystification of ghosts and remember we are spiritual beings who belong to a spiritual realm.

Albert Einstein, famed physicist, stated that there is life after death simply because energy can never cease to exist.

Edited July 25, 2014 by Kitsune

[wotamess]

I've had my share of “weird” things happen, none of which I'd call ghostly. Ghastly yes, but that's for another thread...

I'm a little surprised that this particular thread has wondered so far from home however – thought this was a Thai forum! My mother-in-law quite earnestly believes in ghosts (Thai of course) and so did my wife, up until she visited my once home in Manchester. Built in the 20's, the house was archaic by Thai standards, and obviously complicit with all the evil spirits that might loiter around generations of inevitable tragedy therein.

Thais are naturally suspicious of old houses and believe that spirits exist and reside in old properties. Rather than re-decorating, until recently it was more common to completely demolish a house and start again.

My wife is quite resolute in her now belief that ghosts do not in fact exist, in spite of her mothers contrary conviction – she (mother) continues to attribute both good and bad occurrences as a direct result of ghosts.

It is true to say that embedded superstition will naturally encourage supposed sightings of apparitions, but by the same mechanism whereby unrelated societies find some form of belief system in order to mollify their worst fears, they also manifest their own forms of apparition, be it demonic, devilish or other such (typically) malign incarnations. Until roughly a hundred years ago, ghosts were a given, and not disputed even in the West. It appears that as people become more scientifically dependant, they become less spiritually dependant; perhaps this has some substance.

In the same vain, hallucinations (for multitudinous reasons) are now typically attributed as such rather than blandly accepted as true experiences. Hallucinations are routinely written-off by those self-righteous enough never to have (or believe they might) experience them, but can be completely real to those who encounter them, whereas in many coutures they were actively encouraged for the greater enlightenment of the community.

A hallucination may be triggered in many ways, most of which we do not understand; but here's the thing: if it is simply a hallucination, does that make it irrelevant?

We all know the human mind (not brain) is autonomously predisposed to make a humanification of any image – we see faces on vehicles and all kind of objects: think of the supposed “Christ” images found in potatoes, and even on a dogs backside (check-out youtube). It is not unreasonable to suggest that some people are more or less disposed to recognising these sort of images, and far from fantasy to imagine that a collection of motive images might be recognised by some as the classical ghostly images we hear often described. That would perhaps account for the lack of cow, sheep, chicken and goat [stop giggling, yes I read that post!] apparitions.

This is of course, speculation: the only thing we can be sure of is that which we are unsure of, and only those most intelligent amongst us can surely attest to what they in fact do not know.

I previously had an English GF (half-Bengali if that's relevant), who attested to encountering ghostly happenings on numerous occasions – these encompassed everything from visual encounters with human figures, to pianos playing in deserted rooms, taps being repeatedly turned on, visions in mirrors etc. She was not what I would describe as either the nervous or “spiritual” type by any standard – salt of the earth might be the kindest description. She was not a substance abuser either I should add.

Somehow, these encounters seemed to stop once I was with her.

There are many things we cannot explain – I once knew a guy who could not wear a watch; they always broke. In a former life, I was a dispensing optician – I remember a guy whose skin was apparently so acidic that it ate through every spectacle frame within six months. These are simply real things – who is to say that someone other than you cannot see something you would miss; moreover, there is evidence to suggest that some people attract manifestations and experiences whereas some may well repel them. If you found the following extract from a book of 1814, what would you think?

“..and solicitously, he confided within himself such that no other would understand his own vague ramblings. He was want to rant and rave, and then for no apparent sake laugh or scream without any subject to those around him. Everyone agreed that he was afflicted by the mortal menace, that which does make mockery of ones environment, and those to whom they be most bound. Upon the most earnest demanding by those most dear, the devilish name “Blue-Tooth!” was given as incredulous reason for his soulless dissolution...”

Perhaps in a couple of hundred years they'll be laughing their socks off having found all of the answers we debate – in the meantime, I'm not going to be the one to throw rocks in any direction. As a scientist, I think it is somewhat myopic to suggest that something cannot exist without proof of existence – I would rather take the view of open mindedness given the absence of proof to the contrary. I find it remarkable that so called rational people scoff at the thought of “little green men”, grouping them and other either misunderstood or misinformed phenomena in the same category, when it has been statistically proven without doubt that there is truly life on other planets. Whether they came to fiddle with your sister in the middle of the night is not my concern, but I hope I've maybe answered or asked a few salient questions.

[KarenBravo]

Ghosts are just confused people who don't know they are dead or don't want to accept it.

You do know that the movie Sixth Sense is just that. A movie.

Albert Einstein, famed physicist, stated that there is life after death simply because energy can never cease to exist.

No he didn't.

Check your facts.

He was an atheist.

http://atheism.about.com/od/einsteingodreligion/tp/Einstein-Quotes-on-Afterlife.htm

[Kitsune]

Ghosts are just confused people who don't know they are dead or don't want to accept it.

You do know that the movie Sixth Sense is just that. A movie.

Albert Einstein, famed physicist, stated that there is life after death simply because energy can never cease to exist.

No he didn't.

Check your facts.

He was an atheist.

http://atheism.about.com/od/einsteingodreligion/tp/Einstein-Quotes-on-Afterlife.htm

Wow

You are a very confused person.;

Being an atheist has nothing to do with believing in we are spiritual beings.

Acknowledging that energy cannot be turned into nothing, does not means God exists.

Yes he was an atheist but believe in afterlife.

And by the way About.com is very often wrong

Edited July 25, 2014 by Kitsune

[KarenBravo]

Albert Einstein, famed physicist, stated that there is life after death simply because energy can never cease to exist.

No he didn't.

Check your facts.

He was an atheist.

http://atheism.about.com/od/einsteingodreligion/tp/Einstein-Quotes-on-Afterlife.htm

Wow

You are a very confused person.;

Being an atheist has nothing to do with believing in we are spiritual beings.

Acknowledging that energy cannot be turned into nothing, does not means God exists.

Yes he was an atheist but believe in afterlife.

I'm confused? I don't think so.

Read the link. It specifically quotes Einstein as NOT believing in an after-life.

Here are some of his quotes:-

"I Cannot Conceive of an Individual Surviving Physical Death".

"Feeble Souls Believe in Survival of Death Because of Fear & Ego" (he uses the word soul here as a substitute for person).

"I Do Not Believe in Immortality of the Individual".

Get your facts straight. Just because you want something to be so, doesn't make it so.

As for one of the laws of thermodynamics that you quote. A dying body conforms to it. As there is no evidence for a "soul", you are misusing this law.

The only way it conforms to a person that dies is decay and dissipation of the body's energy into the environment.

Edited July 25, 2014 by KarenBravo

[Aussieroaming]

I believe

[samuibeachcomber]

yes i believe in the spirit world.The good thing is bad spirits cant hurt you unless you invite them into your lives.Ways to invite them into your lives unknowingly is to join in seances,ouiji board readings,possibly tarot cards too.and worshiping,bowing down to false idols.

Why do you think catholic priests are contantly trying to exorcise their parishioners of demon spirits.............their churches are full of idols.(no offence meant to any practicing catholics),but it is my believe that satan and his demons are alive and well and their residential address is c/o "the vatican"

[faraday]

I know that there is a chair under my ass because I can see and feel it. I can also take a photo of it, video it, move it around etc. I don't need to 'believe' it is there. Ghosts, gods, big foot, Nessy, Santa Claus and unicorns are all pure fantasy.

But your senses might be decieving you....

An example: If a person was to enter a room that was painted white, but illuminated with a yellow light, it would look yellow.

Another person goes into the same room later & the yellow light is switched off. The room looks white.

[kurnell]

I know that there is a chair under my ass because I can see and feel it. I can also take a photo of it, video it, move it around etc. I don't need to 'believe' it is there. Ghosts, gods, big foot, Nessy, Santa Claus and unicorns are all pure fantasy.

But your senses might be decieving you....

An example: If a person was to enter a room that was painted white, but illuminated with a yellow light, it would look yellow.

Another person goes into the same room later & the yellow light is switched off. The room looks white.

I'm pretty sure god and the easter bunny ain't in the room either way

[Thongkorn]

Ghosts are just confused people who don't know they are dead or don't want to accept it.

You do know that the movie Sixth Sense is just that. A movie.

Must say , i have seen a few in bars that think they are alive.

[opalred]

i have woken up of a night and saw my xwifes around the bed with pitch forks

[Kitsune]

Albert Einstein, famed physicist, stated that there is life after death simply because energy can never cease to exist.

No he didn't.

Check your facts.

He was an atheist.

http://atheism.about.com/od/einsteingodreligion/tp/Einstein-Quotes-on-Afterlife.htm

Wow

You are a very confused person.;

Being an atheist has nothing to do with believing in we are spiritual beings.

Acknowledging that energy cannot be turned into nothing, does not means God exists.

Yes he was an atheist but believe in afterlife.

I'm confused? I don't think so.

Read the link. It specifically quotes Einstein as NOT believing in an after-life.

Here are some of his quotes:-

"I Cannot Conceive of an Individual Surviving Physical Death".

"Feeble Souls Believe in Survival of Death Because of Fear & Ego" (he uses the word soul here as a substitute for person).

"I Do Not Believe in Immortality of the Individual".

Get your facts straight. Just because you want something to be so, doesn't make it so.

As for one of the laws of thermodynamics that you quote. A dying body conforms to it. As there is no evidence for a "soul", you are misusing this law.

The only way it conforms to a person that dies is decay and dissipation of the body's energy into the environment.

Wow again so much confusion

1/ About.com articles are very often wrong.

2/ Atheism is not agnostic

3/ Spiritual doesn't equal religious

4/ Einstein was not an atheist, he was an agnostic.

In a 1950 letter to M. Berkowitz, Einstein stated that "My position concerning God is that of an agnostic. I am convinced that a vivid consciousness of the primary importance of moral principles for the betterment and ennoblement of life does not need the idea of a law-giver, especially a law-giver who works on the basis of reward and punishment."

[thaibeachlovers]

With the faulty tools of our senses we perceive an infinitesimally small spectrum of the material and energetic worlds. Our hearing is limited to some ridiculously narrow freq range and our eyesight binds us in a very particular range. Our sensory input recreates a virtual world in our head, of what our senses say is out there, and it is time delayed. From our other scientific findings we can muse about how very much of creation we simply miss. Increasingly we grasp that there are more dimensions than we'd held- and still we assert we are master and commander. Confidentially we declare what is "not!"

I don't know if there are apparitions or not but I'd prefer to have a mind that simply said "probably," because multiple theories could explain apparitions without religion or souls. My world is richer for accepting anything is possible in nature. There's really no theory that can explain why there are no apparitions, just the rejection of other theories. "There are no apparitions" is a statement of exclusion, not explanation.

Yes, but with our science we can perceive the whole electromagnetic spectrum and detect most particles.

Yet, there isn't a single piece of scientific evidence for ghosts, spirits and the supernatural, after all this time and effort.

So give a scientific explanation for the small instances of phenomenon that happen all the time like serendipity or thinking of someone just before they call you etc etc. There isn't any scientific evidence, but we all have them.

Just because TODAY'S science can't explain something doesn't prove it doesn't exist, just that the tools haven't been developed yet.

[thaibeachlovers]

Albert Einstein, famed physicist, stated that there is life after death simply because energy can never cease to exist.

No he didn't.

Check your facts.

He was an atheist.

http://atheism.about.com/od/einsteingodreligion/tp/Einstein-Quotes-on-Afterlife.htm

Wow

You are a very confused person.;

Being an atheist has nothing to do with believing in we are spiritual beings.

Acknowledging that energy cannot be turned into nothing, does not means God exists.

Yes he was an atheist but believe in afterlife.

I'm confused? I don't think so.

Read the link. It specifically quotes Einstein as NOT believing in an after-life.

Here are some of his quotes:-

"I Cannot Conceive of an Individual Surviving Physical Death".

"Feeble Souls Believe in Survival of Death Because of Fear & Ego" (he uses the word soul here as a substitute for person).

"I Do Not Believe in Immortality of the Individual".

Get your facts straight. Just because you want something to be so, doesn't make it so.

As for one of the laws of thermodynamics that you quote. A dying body conforms to it. As there is no evidence for a "soul", you are misusing this law.

The only way it conforms to a person that dies is decay and dissipation of the body's energy into the environment.

You can't prove that a soul does not exist, so why so dogmatic? Science does not have all the answers, because it hasn't developed the tools necessary yet.

No doubt the flat earther's in the dark ages thought they knew it all too.

[arjunadawn]

Albert Einstein has been claimed by more than one people as supporting their views. In the end it hardly matters. Einstein exists as an example of one of our brightest; we should afford him his view on many things. However, he is hardly the final word. Einstein came around to more than one realization toward the end of his life, among them was that "spooky action [does happen] at a distance." He also existed in a world of mental giants who can reasonably called Quantum Mystics; this could hardly have been lost upon him. (That a number of these men drifted to the explanations contained in Vedanta says much).

Its a curious point- what our great minds like Einstein believed- but in the long train of time he was but one in a sea of stalwart minds who concluded something else is surely going on, right here, right now. He is not the final word (though worthy of adoration). The greatest suffering and delusion of being human is a direct result of our senses, and their faulty service. I can't state there are ghosts but in the world I behold there is room for myriad surprises. My life is richer for allowing for the marvelous.

Edited July 27, 2014 by arjunadawn

[Kitsune]

I had an NDE so there is no doubt for me that dying is not the end of all.

We are spiritual beings and earth is not our home, we belong to the spiritual realm.

[AYJAYDEE]

With the faulty tools of our senses we perceive an infinitesimally small spectrum of the material and energetic worlds. Our hearing is limited to some ridiculously narrow freq range and our eyesight binds us in a very particular range. Our sensory input recreates a virtual world in our head, of what our senses say is out there, and it is time delayed. From our other scientific findings we can muse about how very much of creation we simply miss. Increasingly we grasp that there are more dimensions than we'd held- and still we assert we are master and commander. Confidentially we declare what is "not!"

I don't know if there are apparitions or not but I'd prefer to have a mind that simply said "probably," because multiple theories could explain apparitions without religion or souls. My world is richer for accepting anything is possible in nature. There's really no theory that can explain why there are no apparitions, just the rejection of other theories. "There are no apparitions" is a statement of exclusion, not explanation.

Yes, but with our science we can perceive the whole electromagnetic spectrum and detect most particles.

Yet, there isn't a single piece of scientific evidence for ghosts, spirits and the supernatural, after all this time and effort.

let me know when you isolate dark matter and dark energy

Science has brought it to you attention. Otherwise, you wouldn't be able to post about it.

they have brought it to our attention only by the power of inference. no one has seen it, measured it

[AYJAYDEE]

I know that there is a chair under my ass because I can see and feel it. I can also take a photo of it, video it, move it around etc. I don't need to 'believe' it is there. Ghosts, gods, big foot, Nessy, Santa Claus and unicorns are all pure fantasy.

have you seen dark matter? is it fantasy? many physicists say no.

[kurnell]

I know that there is a chair under my ass because I can see and feel it. I can also take a photo of it, video it, move it around etc. I don't need to 'believe' it is there. Ghosts, gods, big foot, Nessy, Santa Claus and unicorns are all pure fantasy.

have you seen dark matter? is it fantasy? many physicists say no.

You're talking about Vegemite right?

[arjunadawn]

I had an NDE so there is no doubt for me that dying is not the end of all.

We are spiritual beings and earth is not our home, we belong to the spiritual realm.

I also had a NDE, and I have no doubt... Later in life, 22 years ago, I had my first of a few OBE- just a few. I tried for the longest time to reproduce them with some results using binaural, but over time...

And so I have the same conclusion as you. However, there is a problem that an honest person must consider. While reductionists assert the mind is a product of brain and others assert it is not, neither really know. But when in OBE or in NDE one thing does remain- life! I was alive during both experiences and so I must consider that whatever remarkable experience happened it may well be tied to a living mind. NDE people may have faith, but we can hardly call it conclusive.

[Kitsune]

What I saw, the people I met, were definitely not here or from here, and I never had such an imagination that I could have made the all thing up.

I saw relatives that I had never met, they knew me, and I later checked with my parents did exist.

Also it was a road accident and when it happened, my mum who was not there, started being distressed and was convinced something happened to me, she told me later that she knew somehow that I had an accident and she cried "No, not my daughter don't take her".

My step-dad thought she was going mad, told her to calm down.

I later found out this was the same moment that I was told "you have to go back" and I woke up back at the scene of the accident.

Everyone told me it was a miracle I was alive, even the guy who had crashed into me said he could not believe I was still there.

My parents were called to come to the hospital and my Mum got frantic, realizing she was right, something HAD actually happened to me.

At the hospital my parents told me the all thing, if it had not been for my Mum calling me back to Earth, I would have died that day.

[Johnniey]

I have seen several ghosts and no way were they a figment of my imagination.

How can you be sure. I also have seen ghost but there is a possibility that I was hallucinating.