Anger mounts as Gaza toll rises

[Ulysses G.]

Since we are on the topic of Gaza death toll...
Even the traditionally anti-Israeli and Pro-Palestinian BBC had to admit that Hamas' provided casualty figures have been "inaccurate" and questions the claim that the IDF attacked "indiscriminately".

The BBC are not the only ones who are starting to wake up to this deception.

UPDATE: The BBC, which typically accepts Palestinian and UN propaganda as fact, suddenly expresses skepticism: if the Israeli attacks have been indiscriminate, as the UN Human Rights Council says, it is hard to work out why they have killed so many more civilian men than women.In conclusion, we do not yet know for sure how many of the dead in Gaza are civilians and how many were fighters. So when are media outlets worldwide going to issue a public apology for parroting propaganda about civilian casualties without undertaking independent investigation?
http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2014/08/07/volokh-conspiracy-scoops-the-new-york-times-on-phony-gaza-statistics/ Edited August 12, 2014 by Ulysses G.

[Ulysses G.]

 

PS:  Before the apologists attack, I am well aware of the source of the article.  Your mission, should you choose to accept it, is to find something from a reputable source that disputes the information in the article.

 
I am sure I read an article not long ago that said all Israelis have 3 heads and 5 arms. Please send me a link that disproves this.

 

I bet that it was not from a reputable newspaper like The Times of Israel. Several Times editors previously worked for Haaretz - the liberal rag - and they share the same readership as The Jerusalem Post and Haaretz.

Some posters are more than happy to quote any article from a Jewish/ Israeli source that supports their point of view, but turn their nose up at any that don't. 

 

 

M., a former tunnel digger and Israeli collaborator, told the website that Hamas would strip search the workers to ensure they had no recording devices or cameras hidden on them.

“The people we met had their faces covered; no one knew them by their real names, it was all codes and first names. They didn’t want to take the risk that some of the diggers were collaborating with Israel,” he said.

After the tunnels were completed, dozens were reportedly executed to prevent intelligence leaks to Israel.

“Anyone they suspected might transfer information to Israel on the tunnels was killed by the military wing,” a different source said. “They were very cruel.”

Read more: http://www.timesofisrael.com/hamas-said-to-have-executed-dozens-of-tunnel-diggers/#ixzz3AAcjL5Fo

Edited August 12, 2014 by Ulysses G.

[Jingthing]

It is well known that Hamas executes suspected spies ... 

so the tunneler news fits with the known style of Hamas in every way.

Not too surprising in war ... but the question here would be the instant death penalty and whether the executed were really guilty.

http://www.timesofisrael.com/hamas-said-to-kill-over-30-suspected-collaborators-with-israel/

 

Hamas has executed more than 30 suspected collaborators in the Gaza Strip over the past few days, a Palestinian news agency reported on Monday

 

The TImes of Israel is indeed quite a credible source for NEWS.

Edited August 12, 2014 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

 

 

PS:  Before the apologists attack, I am well aware of the source of the article.  Your mission, should you choose to accept it, is to find something from a reputable source that disputes the information in the article.

 

 

 

I am sure I read an article not long ago that said all Israelis have 3 heads and 5 arms. Please send me a link that disproves this.
 

 

Press tv or rense, was it?

[dexterm]

No-one can deny that it's regrettable a couple or so Jews died in an unfortunate incident  when hitchhiking, which precipitated the sad demise of a lot of IDF. My condolences to their families.

 

How are your language deconstruction skills UG and Morch?

Edited August 12, 2014 by dexterm

[Jingthing]

The proper target of the anger belongs directed at HAMAS.

 

This article has a certain spin which you may or may not agree with, but the basic premise that the obvious real long term goal of Hamas is for Arabs to take over ALL of Israel can't really be denied. 

 

 

As Friedman rightly noted, if Hamas’s aim is to perpetuate, not end, the occupation, it certainly came up with the right tactics. And this confirms the old adage: Opposites converge. Extremists on both sides want to prevent partition. Both think they can have it all and leave the other side with nothing. 

 

Read more: http://forward.com/articles/203808/a-left-wing-argument-for-supporting-israels-war/#ixzz3AAqSrARD

 

 

Edited August 12, 2014 by metisdead
14) You will not post any copyrighted material except as fair use laws apply (as in the case of news articles). Please only post a link, the headline and the first three sentences.

[Morch]

 

 

The great democracy of Israel, the only country in the Middle East that is a safe place for gay people to live so it is hardly some kind of fundamentalist theocracy.

 

 

 

Ah, try this article:

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2014/08/against-pinkwashing-israel-201489104543430313.html

From Ashley Bohrer - a queer feminist, Jewish activist and academic from Chicago.
She disagrees with you, I'm afraid. She notes the liberal laws of Israel regarding sexual diversity matter little on the ground, and that the application of the laws is, in any event, applied selectively only to Jewish Israelis.

 

And a fundamentalist theocracy is actually an apt description of the current government that has been bombing Gaza. Sure, there is an elected parliamentary body. But the only part of it that matters for the purposes of the Gaza war is the Security Council, not the Knesset, and the Security Council is composed of (mostly) right wing Zionist fundamentalists. Back to our old friends Netanyahu and Lieberman.

 

And a further comment on Rabbis Dior and Shapira. I accept that their extreme Zionist views are not shared by many Israelis, but there is a substantial number who do. When summoned for questioning over "incitement to violence"  (Dior endorsed a contentious book giving Jews permission to kill innocent non-Jews - including babies) there were demonstrations in the streets supporting him. Israel's Chief Rabbi spoke in his defence. Netanyahu backed off any legal action against him. So not just some little backwoods preacher, even if he is stuck out in Hebron where the Israeli settlers pour sewerage on the local Palestinians. As the old saying goes, with friends like these who needs enemies?

 

So, I think pointing to the odd Hamas personage who spews similar hate is a little hypocritical. There is insanity on both sides. Refusing to see its presence in one's own side allows it to fester, and will only contribute to the inevitable future conflicts in Gaza and Palestine. I think most of those on here who criticise Israel's actions in Gaza  have been very clear that they want  Israel to survive into the future. Further, they want that future Israel to be a peaceful country, living in some semblance of harmony with its neighbours. Unless sufficient Israelis and Jews demand change, we will be back her arguing over more deaths within a few short years.

 

 

 

Read Bohrer article. Not sure that her initial permise is correct, as I do not normally follow LGBTQ circles and related media.

Shouldn't think that a person's sexual preference, religion or nationality would mean automatic support for any specific goal.

 

Palestinians are not Israeli citizens, and therefore Israeli rules do not apply in their case. Defining the comparison as being

between Israeli Jews and Palestinians, is misleading, Israeli laws apply to Arab Israelis as well, which supports the notion

that the split is more along the lines of citizenship rather than religion or ethnic background. Seeing as both the PA and the

Hamas exercise a form of autonomy, it may be worthwhile to consider what level of freedom is afforded to their own LGBTQ

people. Many of these topics hailed Hamas as a democratically elected government, well...can't have it both ways.

 

The 1900 civilians killed bit, without any Hamas militants getting hurt mentioned is the usual propaganda.

 

The rest gets a bit outlandish - each and every intelligence service uses whatever leverage it can get when trying to recruit

informants. This isn't very nice, but hardly endemic to Israel. Also, it wouldn't be much of a leverage if the Palestinians were

a more open society. Palestinian LGBTQ living illegal and under hardship in Israel would have more to do with persecution

and being less free to express themselves sexually and socially in the West Bank and Gaza Strip - doubt that economic

conditions effect them any differently than other Palestinians.

 

The current Israeli Security Cabinet does have over representation for right wing partners of the coalition, but only one of

them is religious - not sure how that fits with the "theocracy" tag. In fact, there is only one religious party in the current

coalition (with 12 parliament seats, and 3 ministers). Lieberman's party, while right wing, holds anti-religious views.

 

Lior (not Dior, not into fashion much) is not without following, true. He's also not an a national level leader, politician or high

ranked official. So while his opinion and his views are indeed appalling, they are not Israel's views. In contrast, most of the

Hamas hate speech quoted on these topics was used by main leadership figures and official statements. Also, it is hardly

an "odd" occurrence, bur rather the norm.

 

Hate exists on both sides, obviously. It would not go away by any unilateral moves or changes.

[Morch]

 

 

 

Here's one for you and for Hamas.

No bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country.
-George S. Patton

 

Tell that to the parents of the 67 Israelis that Netanyahu has just sacrificed with less to show for their blood than if on June 12th he had treated the kidnapping of the 3 Israeli teens as a regular homicide investigation, and accepted John Kerry's efforts to negotiate a permanent peace.

 

 

Ah, back with the "regular homicide investigation" bit. Another fine example of realities in Israel and the West Bank.

That this does not have any meaning in the actual context does not seem to deter you from repeating it again.

 

 

Spit it out man. Your turgid, weasel worded, tautological prose is dreadful. Are you trying for the gobbledegook prize of the year?

 

What on earth does “That this does not have any meaning in the actual context does not seem to deter you from repeating it again [sic].”

 

When the 3 Israeli teens were kidnapped and murdered, the Israeli police and Shin Bet knew who the perps were. Go look for them and arrest them.

 

How did this help the investigation to find the teens: vandalizing hundreds of West Bank Palestinian homes, arresting hundreds of Hamas members..still without charge, provoking retaliation from Hamas, and the resulting carnage?

 

 

Is this standard procedure whenever an Israeli Jew gets killed in the occupied West Bank?

 

Why were similar procedures not employed when the Israeli Arab teen got kidnapped and burnt to death in occupied East Jerusalem?

 

Netanyahu has a lot of explaining to do to the loved ones of the 67 young Israelis sacrificed by him for his latest objective “a prolonged period of quiet”, which he himself disturbed in the first place on June 12th.

 

The international media have a similar take on the events:

 

“Hamas is also demanding that Israel release Hamas prisoners recently rearrested by Israeli forces in the occupied West Bank, including those who were freed in a prisoner exchange two years ago and members of the Palestinian Legislative Council. The arrests were made as part of Israeli sweeps following the abduction of three Israeli teenagers near a West Bank settlement, an action used by Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu as a reason to crack down on Hamas in the West Bank, triggering Hamas rocket fire from Gaza that helped to set the stage for the war.”

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/israelgaza-conflict-hamas-warns-of-last-chance-for-ceasefire-so-how-long-will-the-truce-last-9662810.html

 

 

If my posts pose too much hardship for your comprehension, you may ignore them.

 

You have posted the same in previous posts, you got replies as to why this bit is irrelevant at best.  You normally choose to ignore factual criticism and just post the same content again and again.

 

So once again, there is no such thing as a "regular homicide investigation" carried out by Israeli police in most of the West Bank. The West Bank is not under Israeli jurisdiction, and therefore investigations are usually carried out by the IDF and Israeli Security Service. You may think this is a pedantic triviality, but the PA would, in all probability oppose such a move. The reason being that police forces normally act within their countries borders, and doing otherwise would be rightly seen as a breach of existing agreements.

 

Besides, the Israeli police is not equipped to conduct investigation and manhunt in the West Bank. IDF has both the jurisdiction and controls the forces, so in most cases police would act in a supporting role.

 

While the identities of the kidnappers/killers were known at an early stage, this does not mean that their whereabouts were known. Not a simple matter of knocking on their door and picking them up. There was also no information as to where they hid the bodies. Many of the arrested are members of the same clan as the perpetrators, and many others were supposed to be in a position to know relevant details. Other than that, in light of the kidnapping/murder,  hitting the Hamas apparatus in the West Bank was not, by itself, an unreasonable move.

 

I do not think this is a standard reaction for the IDF when usual terrorist attacks on Israeli civilians are carried out in the West Bank, the "added value" in this case was the hiding of the bodies. For those unfamiliar with past cases - Israel paid dearly to secure retrieval of bodies, including the release of imprisoned terrorists. Not a situation that any Israeli government would like to face.

 

As for the Arab boy who was brutally killed - Israel annexed east Jerusalem years ago, so as far as Israeli law goes, police would have jurisdiction there. The body itself was found within Israel's borders, not in east Jerusalem. There was much more information available for the police in this case, and suspects were both less organized and easier to apprehend. Even so, there were a bunch of suspects hauled for questioning, until investigation zeroed on the killers.

 

I do not think that The Independent necessarily represent all world media, nor do I take everything appearing in world media for granted.

 

Remains to be seen how long it would be before you will post the "regular homicide investigation" bit again.

This, I do take for granted.

[chuckd]

 

 

PS:  Before the apologists attack, I am well aware of the source of the article.  Your mission, should you choose to accept it, is to find something from a reputable source that disputes the information in the article.

 

 

 

I am sure I read an article not long ago that said all Israelis have 3 heads and 5 arms. Please send me a link that disproves this.
 

 

 

Yeah, I read that too.  It was The Hamas Herald wasn't it?

[CBR250]

 

 

 

PS:  Before the apologists attack, I am well aware of the source of the article.  Your mission, should you choose to accept it, is to find something from a reputable source that disputes the information in the article.

 

 

 

I am sure I read an article not long ago that said all Israelis have 3 heads and 5 arms. Please send me a link that disproves this.
 

 

 

Yeah, I read that too.  It was The Hamas Herald wasn't it?

 

Yes, it was. So, following the logic of your post, as it was published ...somewhere... then we should accept it as true unless there is evidence to the contrary. I hope someone can find that link to disprove it......or else I'm going into the yarmulke business.

PS While I'm here, I heartily recommend that you check the letter from the 247 Jewish survivors and descendants of survivors of Nazi genocide who "unequivocally condemn the massacre of Palestinians in Gaza and the ongoing occupation and colonization of historic Palestine". See: http://ijsn.net/gaza/survivors_and_descendents-letter/

[dexterm]

Morch,

 

I do ignore your posts. If I find your first paragraph uninteresting, I abandon the rest. But first I have to wade through a morass of unformatted (try wrap text) verbose prose riddled with litotes, tautology, vague weasel words and self effacing padding “in my opinion at least”, “as far as I am concerned” (you’re the author, man; we know it’s your opinion).

 

Just a friendly tip: cut to the quick and you will reach a wider audience.

 

The West Bank is not a country ...it’s under Israeli occupation. So you are saying that to save stepping on Palestinian police toes, the IDF smashed in doors and rounded up hundreds of Hamas supporters (have they finished asking them where the teens’ bodies are yet?), provoking a conflict which has just cost the lives of  456 innocent children and 67 young Israelis, 425,000 refugees now twice refugeed.

 

Would that the Israeli government were as respectful of the rest of the Oslo accords. 

 

Your excuse that Operation Brothers Keeper was simply an accidental response to investigative procedural difficulties does not hold water. Netanyahu’s attempt to disrupt Hamas’s rapprochement with PA (US approval must have infuriated him) was clearly a domestic vote winner, but a PR disaster worldwide...today’s latest: possible UK military sanctions, and Mbeki’s call for S African economic boycott of Israel. http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-28755081

 

And even the domestic vote win is unraveling. Hamas may have now won concessions on easing the blockade and prisoner releases in return for Netanyahu’s “prolonged period of quiet” ..something he could easily have negotiated on June 12th, before he deliberately rattled Hamas’s cage.

 

Shalom.

 

Edited August 13, 2014 by dexterm

[Scott]

Off-topic posts and replies deleted.   There is already a discussion of the link posted in another thread.  

 

Posts discussing other posters have also been deleted.  

[Morch]

 

Morch,

 

I do ignore your posts. If I find your first paragraph uninteresting, I abandon the rest. But first I have to wade through a morass of unformatted (try wrap text) verbose prose riddled with litotes, tautology, vague weasel words and self effacing padding “in my opinion at least”, “as far as I am concerned” (you’re the author, man; we know it’s your opinion).

 

Just a friendly tip: cut to the quick and you will reach a wider audience.

 

The West Bank is not a country ...it’s under Israeli occupation. So you are saying that to save stepping on Palestinian police toes, the IDF smashed in doors and rounded up hundreds of Hamas supporters (have they finished asking them where the teens’ bodies are yet?), provoking a conflict which has just cost the lives of  456 innocent children and 67 young Israelis, 425,000 refugees now twice refugeed.

 

Would that the Israeli government were as respectful of the rest of the Oslo accords. 

 

Your excuse that Operation Brothers Keeper was simply an accidental response to investigative procedural difficulties does not hold water. Netanyahu’s attempt to disrupt Hamas’s rapprochement with PA (US approval must have infuriated him) was clearly a domestic vote winner, but a PR disaster worldwide...today’s latest: possible UK military sanctions, and Mbeki’s call for S African economic boycott of Israel. http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-28755081

 

And even the domestic vote win is unraveling. Hamas may have now won concessions on easing the blockade and prisoner releases in return for Netanyahu’s “prolonged period of quiet” ..something he could easily have negotiated on June 12th, before he deliberately rattled Hamas’s cage.

 

Shalom.

 

 

 

Never said the West Bank is a country, that is exactly the point. Being under Israeli occupation it is subject to either Israeli Military rule or, in some areas, self rule by the PA. The Israeli police does not normally conduct investigations in the West Bank. There are a few reasons for this, which were details in my previous post - some to do with jurisdiction, some to do with efficiency. This is a reality which one can accept or not, but its still a reality. There was never any option of police heading the investigation, and presenting it otherwise is simply wrong.

 

Did the Israeli government expect a Hamas response to these mass arrests? Yes. Did the Israeli government expect events to develop exactly as they did? I do not believe so. Did Hamas expect Israel to respond harshly to the kidnapping/murder? Yes. Did Hamas expect events to develop exactly as they did? I do not believe so.

 

I think that the mass arrests were seen by Israeli authorities as hitting two birds with one stone thing - relevant information for the investigation and hitting Hamas back. Was it a calculated move to pull Hamas into a full scale confrontation? I do not believe so.

 

The Israeli government was rightly unhappy with the Palestinian reconciliation move, without Hamas openly denouncing the armed struggle etc., and yes, the USA mild response was not to Netanyahu's liking. That said, there was no need for Israel to do anything special in order to derail the chances for peace - they could have easily refused to deal with any Palestinian administration incorporating the Hamas, and would have legally justified in doing so. The USA response, unless I'm much mistaken, was not one of complete endorsement, but more of a wait-and-see (regarding Hamas changing its stance).

 

The vote winning thing is something which you brought up before in many posts - still waiting for anything to support this assumption. Striking hard, getting quick results at a low cost might have been helpful as vote winners. Getting no results on the killers, and doing the same old thing in the Gaza strip without any clear results are not going to win Netanyahu many votes. If anything this plays out better for even more right wing parties, which compete for the same voter base as Netanyahu's party. Previous clashes in the Gaza Strip were not necessarily beneficial for ruling parties in the next elections. Also worth noting that there are no upcoming elections in Israel - so not much electoral sense in even trying such a move now.

 

Remains to be seen what the Cairo negotiations will bring about, although it does seem that things will pretty much go back to the previous understandings, with perhaps some extra concessions for Hamas. There is a lot of grumbling on this issue coming from Netanyahu's own party and coalition partners (not to mention the general public). Three hours to go on the current ceasefire, so remains to be seen if it will be extended or not. Deif is supposed to make a statement in half an hour, maybe more details then.

[dexterm]

 

 

Morch,

 

I do ignore your posts. If I find your first paragraph uninteresting, I abandon the rest. But first I have to wade through a morass of unformatted (try wrap text) verbose prose riddled with litotes, tautology, vague weasel words and self effacing padding “in my opinion at least”, “as far as I am concerned” (you’re the author, man; we know it’s your opinion).

 

Just a friendly tip: cut to the quick and you will reach a wider audience.

 

The West Bank is not a country ...it’s under Israeli occupation. So you are saying that to save stepping on Palestinian police toes, the IDF smashed in doors and rounded up hundreds of Hamas supporters (have they finished asking them where the teens’ bodies are yet?), provoking a conflict which has just cost the lives of  456 innocent children and 67 young Israelis, 425,000 refugees now twice refugeed.

 

Would that the Israeli government were as respectful of the rest of the Oslo accords. 

 

Your excuse that Operation Brothers Keeper was simply an accidental response to investigative procedural difficulties does not hold water. Netanyahu’s attempt to disrupt Hamas’s rapprochement with PA (US approval must have infuriated him) was clearly a domestic vote winner, but a PR disaster worldwide...today’s latest: possible UK military sanctions, and Mbeki’s call for S African economic boycott of Israel. http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-28755081

 

And even the domestic vote win is unraveling. Hamas may have now won concessions on easing the blockade and prisoner releases in return for Netanyahu’s “prolonged period of quiet” ..something he could easily have negotiated on June 12th, before he deliberately rattled Hamas’s cage.

 

Shalom.

 

 

 

Never said the West Bank is a country, that is exactly the point. Being under Israeli occupation it is subject to either Israeli

Military rule or, in some areas, self rule by the PA.

The Israeli police does not normally conduct investigations in the West Bank. There are a few reasons for this, which were

details in my previous post - some to do with jurisdiction, some to do with efficiency. This is a reality which one can accept

or not, but its still a reality. There was never any option of police heading the investigation, and presenting it otherwise is

simply wrong.

 

Did the Israeli government expect a Hamas response to these mass arrests? Yes. Did the Israeli government expect events

to develop exactly as they did? I do not believe so. Did Hamas expect Israel to respond harshly to the kidnapping/murder?

Yes. Did Hamas expect events to develop exactly as they did? I do not believe so.

 

I think that the mass arrests were seen by Israeli authorities as hitting two birds with one stone thing - relevant information

for the investigation and hitting Hamas back. Was it a calculated move to pull Hamas into a full scale confrontation? I do not

believe so.

 

The Israeli government was rightly unhappy with the Palestinian reconciliation move, without Hamas openly denouncing the

armed struggle etc., and yes, the USA mild response was not to Netanyahu's liking. That said, there was no need for Israel

to do anything special in order to derail the chances for peace - they could have easily refused to deal with any Palestinian

administration incorporating the Hamas, and would have legally justified in doing so. The USA response, unless I'm much

mistaken, was not one of complete endorsement, but more of a wait-and-see (regarding Hamas changing its stance).

 

The vote winning thing is something which you brought up before in many posts - still waiting for anything to support this

assumption. Striking hard, getting quick results at a low cost might have been helpful as vote winners. Getting no results

on the killers, and doing the same old thing in the Gaza strip without any clear results are not going to win Netanyahu

many votes. If anything this plays out better for even more right wing parties, which compete for the same voter base as

Netanyahu's party. Previous clashes in the Gaza Strip were not necessarily beneficial for ruling parties in the next elections.

Also worth noting that there are no upcoming elections in Israel - so not much electoral sense in even trying such a move

now.

 

Remains to be seen what the Cairo negotiations will bring about, although it does seem that things will pretty much go

back to the previous understandings, with perhaps some extra concessions for Hamas. There is a lot of grumbling on

this issue coming from Netanyahu's own party and coalition partners (not to mention the general public). Three hours

to go on the current ceasefire, so remains to be seen if it will be extended or not. Deif is supposed to make a statement

in half an hour, maybe more details then.

 

 

Your sentence “The reason being that police forces normally act within their countries borders, and doing otherwise would be rightly seen as a breach of existing agreements.” Implies Isaeli police operate within their country...whatever that is, where are its borders??..and that Palestinian police operate in their country, which also hasn’t been defined yet. Maybe just a slip of the pen on your part, or an over zealous interpretation of a word on my part. I won’t labor the point.

 

I disagree with you that Israel did not deliberately provoke this present conflict by rattling Hamas’s cage. They have done it before. It’s quite easy for them to stir up trouble, and when Hamas retaliates, the slick Israeli propaganda machine simply muddies the waters, and blames the other side. In the fog of war people often overlook who actually lit the blue touch paper.

 

I disagree with your “Previous clashes in the Gaza Strip were not necessarily beneficial for ruling parties in the next elections.”
During the 2008 invasion of Gaza just before the Feb 2009 election...almost a mirror image of the present conflict... I recall Livni and Netanyahu both very gung-ho about the war. They’d be fools to be peaceniks with an election the next month. Both had good results...Kadima and Likud, the top two parties. Wars are very popular with Israelis.In the present round of violence polls have shown very high Israeli approval for Netanyahu’s actions.

 

I don’t think Hamas expected Israel’s over reaction to the kidnapping. I remember reading their statements at the time, calling Israel’s accusation that Hamas had orchestrated the kidnappings as ridiculous, when they usually take responsibility.

 

I think Netanyahu miscalculated the number of Israeli deaths his actions would cause, and the global PR disaster...the low support among young Americans is very telling.

Gallup poll shows low support among young Americans for Operation Protective Edge   http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/1.607224

 

In more recent polls Israeli enthusiasm is waning as far as who won the war.

 

Despite the confusion at the start, I hope the present truce holds, and a chance through peace negotiations of an improvement in Gazan and Israeli lives.

When young people are fully employed and prospering, they have no time or need to dig tunnels and fire rockets.

 

Shalom.

 

 

 

Edited August 14, 2014 by dexterm

[OZEMADE]

Skunk: A Weapon From Israel

This would be a bit friendlier, even if you did stink. Definitely keeps them back. Should be used in Thailand next disturbance.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=H4_XZE3r3o

 

[Steely Dan]

Skunk: A Weapon From Israel
This would be a bit friendlier, even if you did stink. Definitely keeps them back. Should be used in Thailand next disturbance.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=H4_XZE3r3o
 

The usual bleeding hearts will no doubt kick up a stink.

[Ulysses G.]

Gallup poll shows low support among young Americans for Operation Protective Edge

As has been pointed out numerous times before,the results are not much different from the Gallup poll 12 years ago, during another crisis with the Palestinians and Americans have always supported Israel over the Palestinians by a large margin.

[Johpa]

Here is an interesting suggestion worthy of further pondering by all sides coming from Avigdor Lieberman, a person normally associated with the politics just to the right of Netanyahu.

 

http://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/put-gaza-u-n-mandate

[simple1]

Here is an interesting suggestion worthy of further pondering by all sides coming from Avigdor Lieberman, a person normally associated with the politics just to the right of Netanyahu.

 

http://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/put-gaza-u-n-mandate

 

A quote from the article

 

"One could easily imagine NATO troops taking their place today, acting under a mandate of the U.N. Security Council. In principle, the same arrangements could be worked out for the Gaza port, and even for an airport.”

 

Does anyone really believe that NATO countries would agree to placing contingents of their armed forces in Gaza.

[CBR250]

Here is an interesting suggestion worthy of further pondering by all sides coming from Avigdor Lieberman, a person normally associated with the politics just to the right of Netanyahu.

 

http://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/put-gaza-u-n-mandate

 

Unusual to see Lieberman suggest anything that doesn't lead to more dead Palestinians, so good on him. Maybe he is starting to see a bit of common sense as he grows older.

 

I don't know if his proposal is a serious starter. But the most important point here is that columnist is right - you can't keep going back to the same starting point and then expecting everything to work out. Gaza has been under siege since 2000. It has been almost totally blockaded since 2005. Partly to punish Gazans for forcing Israel to abandon settlements in Gaza in 2005. Partly to punish Gazans for daring to practice democracy, and choosing to elect Hamas in 2006. Until then, the preceding few years were notable for the fact that 5,000 Israelis settlers had taken over 40% of Gazan land in which to build their swimming pools, while over 1,000,000 Gazans were forced into the remnants of this tiny strip of land. I mention this to remind you that the resistance of Gazans has become legendary. You can terrorise them, destroy their homes, schools, hospitals etc. Kill their children and family members. But you can't make them go away. Even this most recent military onslaught has not weakened their resistance. So many articles, blogs and letters attest to this.

 

Israel has to face facts. The resistance of Gazans to occupation will continue. The massive military bombardment of Gaza has failed. If the IDF attack again while the memory of the recent outrages are so fresh, there will be a flood of anti-Israeli feeling around the world. So Lieberman's suggestion - while it may not be plausible - at least indicates he is showing the he recognises the need to adopt new strategies.

[chuckd]

 

 

Unusual to see Lieberman suggest anything that doesn't lead to more dead Palestinians, so good on him. Maybe he is starting to see a bit of common sense as he grows older.

 

I don't know if his proposal is a serious starter. But the most important point here is that columnist is right - you can't keep going back to the same starting point and then expecting everything to work out. Gaza has been under siege since 2000. It has been almost totally blockaded since 2005. Partly to punish Gazans for forcing Israel to abandon settlements in Gaza in 2005. Partly to punish Gazans for daring to practice democracy, and choosing to elect Hamas in 2006. Until then, the preceding few years were notable for the fact that 5,000 Israelis settlers had taken over 40% of Gazan land in which to build their swimming pools, while over 1,000,000 Gazans were forced into the remnants of this tiny strip of land. I mention this to remind you that the resistance of Gazans has become legendary. You can terrorise them, destroy their homes, schools, hospitals etc. Kill their children and family members. But you can't make them go away. Even this most recent military onslaught has not weakened their resistance. So many articles, blogs and letters attest to this.

 

Israel has to face facts. The resistance of Gazans to occupation will continue. The massive military bombardment of Gaza has failed. If the IDF attack again while the memory of the recent outrages are so fresh, there will be a flood of anti-Israeli feeling around the world. So Lieberman's suggestion - while it may not be plausible - at least indicates he is showing the he recognises the need to adopt new strategies.

 

 

I don't like to post on these Israeli threads as there is entirely too much emotion in them.  

 

However, a couple of items that seem to be continually overlooked in this discussion come to mind.

 

You make this claim:

 

 Partly to punish Gazans for daring to practice democracy, and choosing to elect Hamas in 2006. 

 

My question about this is, since the election of 2006, how many attempts to "practice democracy" have the people of Gaza had between then and now?

 

How many times has Hamas been freely re-elected by the citizens?

 

Further, you make this claim about Gaza being so densely populated:

 

 while over 1,000,000 Gazans were forced into the remnants of this tiny strip of land.

 

It might be interesting for our other members to know that the Gaza Strip has a total area of 146 square miles supporting 1.6 million people while the city of Philadelphia has a land area of 142 square miles and supports 1.5 million people.

 

In other words, Gaza is no more densely populated than many large cities around the world.

 

Just curious how some feel about these matters.

Edited August 15, 2014 by chuckd

[simple1]

 

 

 

Unusual to see Lieberman suggest anything that doesn't lead to more dead Palestinians, so good on him. Maybe he is starting to see a bit of common sense as he grows older.

 

I don't know if his proposal is a serious starter. But the most important point here is that columnist is right - you can't keep going back to the same starting point and then expecting everything to work out. Gaza has been under siege since 2000. It has been almost totally blockaded since 2005. Partly to punish Gazans for forcing Israel to abandon settlements in Gaza in 2005. Partly to punish Gazans for daring to practice democracy, and choosing to elect Hamas in 2006. Until then, the preceding few years were notable for the fact that 5,000 Israelis settlers had taken over 40% of Gazan land in which to build their swimming pools, while over 1,000,000 Gazans were forced into the remnants of this tiny strip of land. I mention this to remind you that the resistance of Gazans has become legendary. You can terrorise them, destroy their homes, schools, hospitals etc. Kill their children and family members. But you can't make them go away. Even this most recent military onslaught has not weakened their resistance. So many articles, blogs and letters attest to this.

 

Israel has to face facts. The resistance of Gazans to occupation will continue. The massive military bombardment of Gaza has failed. If the IDF attack again while the memory of the recent outrages are so fresh, there will be a flood of anti-Israeli feeling around the world. So Lieberman's suggestion - while it may not be plausible - at least indicates he is showing the he recognises the need to adopt new strategies.

 

 

I don't like to post on these Israeli threads as there is entirely too much emotion in them.  

 

However, a couple of items that seem to be continually overlooked in this discussion come to mind.

 

You make this claim:

 

 Partly to punish Gazans for daring to practice democracy, and choosing to elect Hamas in 2006. 

 

My question about this is, since the election of 2006, how many attempts to "practice democracy" have the people of Gaza had between then and now?

 

How many times has Hamas been freely re-elected by the citizens?

 

Further, you make this claim about Gaza being so densely populated:

 

 while over 1,000,000 Gazans were forced into the remnants of this tiny strip of land.

 

It might be interesting for our other members to know that the Gaza Strip has a total area of 146 square miles supporting 1.6 million people while the city of Philadelphia has a land area of 142 square miles and supports 1.5 million people.

 

In other words, Gaza is no more densely populated than many large cities around the world.

 

Just curious how some feel about these matters.

 

 

If the City of Philadelphia, or any other city, was denied open access to land, air and sea trade routes would it be self sustaining?
 

Edited August 15, 2014 by simple1

[chuckd]

 

 

 

 

Unusual to see Lieberman suggest anything that doesn't lead to more dead Palestinians, so good on him. Maybe he is starting to see a bit of common sense as he grows older.

 

I don't know if his proposal is a serious starter. But the most important point here is that columnist is right - you can't keep going back to the same starting point and then expecting everything to work out. Gaza has been under siege since 2000. It has been almost totally blockaded since 2005. Partly to punish Gazans for forcing Israel to abandon settlements in Gaza in 2005. Partly to punish Gazans for daring to practice democracy, and choosing to elect Hamas in 2006. Until then, the preceding few years were notable for the fact that 5,000 Israelis settlers had taken over 40% of Gazan land in which to build their swimming pools, while over 1,000,000 Gazans were forced into the remnants of this tiny strip of land. I mention this to remind you that the resistance of Gazans has become legendary. You can terrorise them, destroy their homes, schools, hospitals etc. Kill their children and family members. But you can't make them go away. Even this most recent military onslaught has not weakened their resistance. So many articles, blogs and letters attest to this.

 

Israel has to face facts. The resistance of Gazans to occupation will continue. The massive military bombardment of Gaza has failed. If the IDF attack again while the memory of the recent outrages are so fresh, there will be a flood of anti-Israeli feeling around the world. So Lieberman's suggestion - while it may not be plausible - at least indicates he is showing the he recognises the need to adopt new strategies.

 

 

I don't like to post on these Israeli threads as there is entirely too much emotion in them.  

 

However, a couple of items that seem to be continually overlooked in this discussion come to mind.

 

You make this claim:

 

 Partly to punish Gazans for daring to practice democracy, and choosing to elect Hamas in 2006. 

 

My question about this is, since the election of 2006, how many attempts to "practice democracy" have the people of Gaza had between then and now?

 

How many times has Hamas been freely re-elected by the citizens?

 

Further, you make this claim about Gaza being so densely populated:

 

 while over 1,000,000 Gazans were forced into the remnants of this tiny strip of land.

 

It might be interesting for our other members to know that the Gaza Strip has a total area of 146 square miles supporting 1.6 million people while the city of Philadelphia has a land area of 142 square miles and supports 1.5 million people.

 

In other words, Gaza is no more densely populated than many large cities around the world.

 

Just curious how some feel about these matters.

 

 

If the City of Philadelphia, or any other city, was denied open access to land, air and sea trade routes would it be self sustaining?
 

 

 

I know little about the economic viability of Philadelphia and have even less interest in finding out.

 

Having said that, if the citizens of Philly started shooting rockets into Baltimore, I expect action would be taken to put a stop to it, regardless of their justification.

 

Ya' think?

Edited August 15, 2014 by chuckd

[CBR250]

In response to chuckd's post (above):
 

 

chuckd wrote:

"My question about this is, since the election of 2006, how many attempts to "practice democracy" have the people of Gaza had between then and now"?
You imply by your question that somehow the Palestinians are "undemocratic". I suspect any country that was subject to an almost total blockade by an occupying power would perhaps not adhere easily to normal events like scheduled elections. However, not just the distraction of the blockade, but serious procedural disputes between Fatah and Hamas resulted in elections to the Legislature called for 2010 and 2012 not proceeding. Finally, in April 2014, Fatah and Hamas, as part of their agreement in forming a Unity government, agreed to hold elections within 6 months. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_general_election,_2014).

The Netanyahu government was p----- off to a significant degree by this, despite the fact that Abbas said the Unity government would be comprised of ministers without political affiliation, and would recognize Israel and renounce violence. (see: http://www.dw.de/israels-netanyahu-calls-on-world-to-reject-palestinian-unity-government/a-17675197).

In fact, the Israeli government was so annoyed they asked the US and EU to boycott the Unity government (both countries refused, much to Netanyahu's horror). Israel then threatened punitive sanctions against the Palestinian Authority, including reducing contacts and holding back tax revenues as punishment - I guess for daring to practice any form of decision making that was democratic (see http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jun/03/israel-us-palestinian-unity-government-netanyahu). One can only conclude that Netanyahu was quite happy NOT to have a single Palestinian front with which to negotiate.

 

The small matter of the invasion and destruction of much of Gaza in July has probably interfered with plans for the elections this year. Your question does seem to infer that "democracy" is not being practiced in Gaza. But they seem to be doing their best. In fact, the election of Hamas in 2006 is one of the strongest signals that democracy is alive and well in Gaza. Gazans were sick of the failures of Fatah, and saw Hamas working positively for local people. Hamas provided a range of social and welfare services such as soup kitchens, health clinics, funded schools, organised sporting clubs. Fatah had made no headway in getting the blockade-before-the-Blockade (2000-2005) lifted from Gaza. They would have been stupid NOT to vote for Hamas. So, democracy - if Israel allowed the space for it to be practiced - is alive and well in Gaza.

 

Chuckd wrote "It might be interesting for our other members to know that the Gaza Strip has a total area of 146 square miles supporting 1.6 million people while the city of Philadelphia has a land area of 142 square miles and supports 1.5 million people."

 

I applaud your intent to be factual. However, to respond:

     1. You should really compare Philadelphia (a city) to Gaza City, not the whole of the Gaza Strip. You could of course compare the State of Philadelphia to the Gaza Strip, but I guess that would help even more to indicate the different population densities.

     2. Some figures for you. As of the census of 2010, the population density of Philadelphia was 4,337.3/km². (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Philadelphia). Gaza City has a population density of 9,982.69/km². More than double. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_City#Population). Gaza City is reported to be the 40th most densely populated area in the world. It comes in behind cities in Bangladesh, India and China. (http://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/2014/07/22/here-s-how-big-gaza-comparison-some-cities-around-world)

    3. BUT, some areas of the Gaza Strip are far more heavily populated still. The Jabalia Refugee Camp in northern Gaza has a population of 66,754/km², one of the highest population densities in the world.(See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_city_districts_by_population_density)

 

So please feel free to add any further information to these topics, but maybe do a bit more background checking first to ensure accuracy. There are already too many misleading posts on this thread to want more!

Edited August 15, 2014 by CBR250

[Steely Dan]

Philadelphians are not Palestinian. To illustrate my point if you magically swapped the two populations I suspect strongly the first thing the Israelis would do would be to remove the blockade seeing as their new neighbors would not be of a mind to attack them at every opportunity.
As for UN peacekeepers in Gaza I think Lieberman was thinking something along these lines;-

UN peacekeepers would be inevitably attacked, body bags containing foreign nationals would soon focus world opinion as to what Israel had to deal with. Reports of the horrors of Sharia law would also filter out. Eventually when the going got too hot the UN would again leave and there would be less calls for external intervention when Israel finally sorted out the Palestinian terrorists.

[Jingthing]

Philadelphia is not a state.

There are such things as city states.

Such as Singapore which is a city and a nation state.

Also high density but not as dense  as Gaza.

Big cities aren't necessarily super dense tiny places either. Sometimes they have lots of land ... such as Davao City and Jacksonville Florida which both have relatively low densities for "big" cities.

 

Back to the anger issue.  Israel is getting a raw deal.  If people were really honest, they would realize Israel has little choice but to go after the rockets and tunnel capability.  The anger should be directed at Hamas.

Sure the people in Gaza have grievances but their methods are the real war crimes here.

 

What would you want your government to do if your enemy was digging tunnels under your village, in order to pop out at night to kill or kidnap you?” he wrote. “An honest person would answer this question the following way: I would prefer that my government do whatever it must do to make sure that terrorists are not constructing tunnels under my house in order to kidnap me or members of my family.”

...

Left wing Jews should not allow themselves to be guilty of the crime of ingratitude with regards to the idea of Jewish power. It was not fun being Jewish without having power in the world—statehood is about many things and one of them is about having power: military, diplomatic, etc. It might be tempting to live in a morally easier place when power is just intellectual, a bit economic, but it cannot offer the guarantees that statehood affords. So, ugly though it is to see people being killed by our soldiers, that is just the way it works in the grown up world. On the broad level there are rules of war to keep things in check. But as it pertains to the particular moral space inhabited by the left, it means having to accept that war happens, people get killed, even children. Awful but sobering and true.

 

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/politics/features/2014/american_jews_and_israel/why_i_almost_never_write_about_the_israeli_palestinian_conflict.html

 

 

Edited August 15, 2014 by Scott

[Steely Dan]

*Messed up quotes edited out*

 

To highlight your point 30,000 Israelis who live close to Gaza have staged a protest in Tel Aviv against their governments failure to finally rid them of the threat of rockets and tunnels. I don't suppose many armchair liberals considered that the anger mentioned in the OP applied to both sides of the conflict. Also whatever it may be politic for diaspora Jews to state they don't constitute the 97% of Israeli Jews,who want to see Hamas dismantled.

Edited August 15, 2014 by Scott

[Pakboong]

Perhaps what really matters is when all is said and done, will there be more haters in our world and who will be hated. This recent series of Tit for Tat events is perceived by the uninitiated as shooting your little sister with a shotgun because she wouldn't stop hitting you. The simple fact that you issued her a stern warning will not matter. The other details also do not matter as we are talking human perception.

 

It appears that the Palestinians have a little bit of  leverage for the first time and they like it. The population of Gaza is already traumatized so why give in now? They will only lose if they do in fact give in.

Edited August 15, 2014 by Pakboong

[Jingthing]

Why stop now? Good one!

 

[attachment=279316:IDF.jpg]

 

Yeah, we get it. Hamas has engineered a PR "win" at the cost of their own people. But if Israel caves too much they will be rewarding those tactics. So sure things should change but don't expect instant miracles. 

[Pakboong]

Why stop now? Good one!

 

IDF.jpg

 

Yeah, we get it. Hamas has engineered a PR "win" at the cost of their own people. But if Israel caves too much they will be rewarding those tactics. So sure things should change but don't expect instant miracles. 

 

I guess it all boils down to who has the most to lose.