Koh Tao murders: Lawyer protests Myanmar men detention

[masuk]

Sad that in 2014 there are so many things wrong, or need fixing in LOS.....but won't be!

I'd say the 2 Burmese are not out of the woods yet. And despite everything that has transpired, are we sure they had no involvement in the murders???????

Agreed! Did they do it? Did someone else do it? Whatever the verdict, we'll never really know!

It will be interesting to see if the Human Rights Commission can submit their report to the court, and also demand that the police involved be ordered to be interviewed, which they have avoided so far.

[rametindallas]

We do not know if they are guilty or

Not . We all , including the prosecutor and police know there is a lot of doubt.

Based on that doubt they should atleast be allowed secure.bail.

Like suthep and apichart.

Did you mean Suthep and Abhisit? Neither one is on bail as far as I know.

[AleG]

The other day an ex-MP was released having been found guilty of murder of a rival and after having been given the death sentence. OF course he is a rich man able to put up, for him, a relatively small amount of cash to secure his release (1.35 million baht). If they can release a man on death row, why cannot they release these two who have been framed?

This is EXACTLY how things have (d)evolved regarding this case:

The other day an ex-MP was released having been found guilty of murder of a rival and after having been given the death sentence.

That is to say, the spreading of false information. He was not released he is locked up in Bang Khwan; but now "everyone knows" it, they read it somewhere, or they thought they read it somewhere, it's no the Internet, you know? therefore it is "the truth" and they'd rather have their teeth pulled without anesthesia than let go of their misconceptions.

[culicine]

Why when they returned to their room , they were acting normally, as their friend has indicated, and why no blood on their clothes .

Blood on there clothes with the Dna would have been conclusive evidence.

Total farce .

When do you think they were arrested?

Yes agreed , but no clothes were found with blood on them.

Again, when do you think they were arrested?

Or after you committed your last murders did you keep bloody clothes around the house?

well, they were stupid enough to 'leave' a victim's phone right near their accommodation. Why no other evidence...nothing. Only cctv had shown them on a bike earlier in the evening - and no other evidence of them on the streets caught on camera after the murder. There is nothing on them, only dna which can be tampered with (and is not enough for a conviction anyway).

[jdinasia]

Why when they returned to their room , they were acting normally, as their friend has indicated, and why no blood on their clothes .

Blood on there clothes with the Dna would have been conclusive evidence.

Total farce .

When do you think they were arrested?

Yes agreed , but no clothes were found with blood on them.

Again, when do you think they were arrested?

Or after you committed your last murders did you keep bloody clothes around the house?

well, they were stupid enough to 'leave' a victim's phone right near their accommodation. Why no other evidence...nothing. Only cctv had shown them on a bike earlier in the evening - and no other evidence of them on the streets caught on camera after the murder. There is nothing on them, only dna which can be tampered with (and is not enough for a conviction anyway).

We don't know what evidence there is.

Theft for profit.

[SteveFong]

I dont know,

are you also so stupid to wipe all DNA off your stairs, handrails, sinks, toilets, showers, and then casually leave a victims cell phone from behind your well scrubbed apt?

[Baerboxer]

Has it been revealed in public how these 2 devious Burmese managed to steal all cctv footage(except for the 2 minute blurry running man clip) from all businesses on Sairee beach close to where they were alledged to have murdered the 2 Brits?

It is such a shame they did this, especially for themselves. Having the cctv footage of the argument in the bar before the murders would have likely helped the 2B's case.

Has it been revealed publicly that there was a row in the bar, outside the bar, or anywhere before the murders?

I have followed the case but can't find where any witness, especially the friends of the victims, or other foreign tourists have confirmed this. (Ignoring the ramblings of McAnna). There must have been witnesses.

Sorry if I've missed that, but I can't find it. Surely the Thai police (and hopefully the British police) would have taken detailed statements from witnesses who were with the victims on the night of the murders?

[Briggsy]

Has it been revealed in public how these 2 devious Burmese managed to steal all cctv footage(except for the 2 minute blurry running man clip) from all businesses on Sairee beach close to where they were alledged to have murdered the 2 Brits?

It is such a shame they did this, especially for themselves. Having the cctv footage of the argument in the bar before the murders would have likely helped the 2B's case.

Has it been revealed publicly that there was a row in the bar, outside the bar, or anywhere before the murders?

I have followed the case but can't find where any witness, especially the friends of the victims, or other foreign tourists have confirmed this. (Ignoring the ramblings of McAnna). There must have been witnesses.

Sorry if I've missed that, but I can't find it. Surely the Thai police (and hopefully the British police) would have taken detailed statements from witnesses who were with the victims on the night of the murders?

The Thai police have issued statements basely supporting whatever outcome they hoped for.

You would need to look at foreign news sources and facebook pages. Just google it, you will find various sources.

[wabothai]

If evidence was undisputable from the beginning the case would have already been run through the court. Simple logic. Just buying time !!!!

[Mooner]

Why when they returned to their room , they were acting normally, as their friend has indicated, and why no blood on their clothes .

Blood on there clothes with the Dna would have been conclusive evidence.

Total farce .

When do you think they were arrested?

Yes agreed , but no clothes were found with blood on them.

Again, when do you think they were arrested?

Or after you committed your last murders did you keep bloody clothes around the house?

Do you keep a phone of the deceased in the trees behind your house when its worth 3 months salary?

Do you stick around and then turn up for a DNA test when you have just killed 2 people?

I could go on! This case has more questions than answers and if they really had conclusive DNA evidence that matched the DNA on Hannah then how does this case keep getting sent back by the prosecution?

[boomerangutang]

What the lawyer should be pushing for is for an independent DNA testing compared with samples taken in the UK, no match they walk free, easy as that. Why is that not happening?

How many different reasons would you like? AFAIK there was no DNA other than the victims in the UK. Chain of custody Inadmissible

Sounding like a defense lawyer again. Of course independent DNA is needed. Thai officials know that, and that's why they want the Brits involved as little as possible. Thai officials started out, at the earlier stages of the investigation, saying that Thailand didn't have the facilities to type DNA. That apparently changed. Everyone, except those who are shielding the headman's people from justice, want the DNA trail to be verified by outsiders - all the way from the specimens taken from the female victim. You'll notice, Thai officials (and JD and the headman's people) don't want any scrutiny of the DNA found in/on the victim. No surprise. You'll also notice they will do all they can to avoid that happening, whether it be legal maneuverings or hiding DNA cards (with DNA typing), or hushing-up the British, or whatever.

Surely the Thai police (and hopefully the British police) would have taken detailed statements from witnesses who were with the victims on the night of the murders?

That's assuming the Thai cops are doing a decent job - and that's a Biiiiig assumption. Most if not all the cops doing the investigating haven't been trained in crime scene investigations. All went to Thai schools which are stuck in rote-learning (ask no questions). There are no independent crime investigators in Thailand as far as I know. So, all the Thai investigators are duty-bound to toe the officials line. None, except top brass, can speak up. In this case, it's frame-the-Burmese and shield-the-headman's-people. Simple. That's also why Thai investigators long-ago dismissed the men who should be prime suspects, and why cops appear to have done no investigating for the past 6 weeks. It appears all they've done in recent weeks is try to get the frame-up text to comply with what prosecutors want to see. If it weren't for social media interfering, this case would have resolved like other cases which frame scapegoats, and then everyone could go on to what they were doing and forget about it. Everyone, except the victims' families and the 2 boys who got framed - and perhaps future victims of the real perps who are out going to parties, slipping date-rape mickeys in drinks of the prettiest, youngest, most vivacious farang chicks. Edited November 20, 2014 by boomerangutang

[jdinasia]

What the lawyer should be pushing for is for an independent DNA testing compared with samples taken in the UK, no match they walk free, easy as that. Why is that not happening?

How many different reasons would you like? AFAIK there was no DNA other than the victims in the UK. Chain of custody Inadmissible

Sounding like a defense lawyer again. Of course independent DNA is needed. Thai officials know that, and that's why they want the Brits involved as little as possible. Thai officials started out, at the earlier stages of the investigation, saying that Thailand didn't have the facilities to type DNA. That apparently changed. No one, except those who are shielding the headman's people from justice, want the DNA trail to be verified by outsiders - all the way from the specimens taken from the female victim. You'll notice, Thai officials (and JD and the headman's people) don't want any scrutiny of the DNA found in/on the victim. No surprise. You'll also notice they will do all they can to avoid that happening, whether it be legal maneuverings or hiding DNA cards (with DNA typing), or hushing-up the British, or whatever.

Surely the Thai police (and hopefully the British police) would have taken detailed statements from witnesses who were with the victims on the night of the murders?

That's assuming the Thai cops are doing a decent job - and that's a Biiiiig assumption. Most if not all the cops doing the investigating haven't been trained in crime scene investigations. All went to Thai schools which are stuck in rote-learning (ask no questions). There are no independent crime investigators in Thailand as far as I know. So, all the Thai investigators are duty-bound to toe the officials line. None, except top brass, can speak up. In this case, it's frame-the-Burmese and shield-the-headman's-people. Simple. That's also why Thai investigators long-ago dismissed the men who should be prime suspects, and why cops appear to have done no investigating for the past 6 weeks. It appears all they've done in recent weeks is try to get the frame-up text to comply with what prosecutors want to see. If it weren't for social media interfering, this case would have resolved like other cases which frame scapegoats, and then everyone could go on to what they were doing and forget about it. Everyone, except the victims' families and the 2 boys who got framed - and perhaps future victims of the real perps who are out going to parties, slipping date-rape mickeys in drinks of the prettiest, youngest, most vivacious farang chicks.

I think you may want to reread your post

[HeijoshinCool]

What the lawyer should be pushing for is for an independent DNA testing compared with samples taken in the UK, no match they walk free, easy as that. Why is that not happening?

How many different reasons would you like?

AFAIK there was no DNA other than the victims in the UK.

Chain of custody

Inadmissible

.

Ah, so a medical examiner who does an independent examination does it just for fun because, according to you, there is no chain of custody and therefore his expert testimony would be inadmissible?

Uh, no. Happens all the time, especially in high profile cases, and even across borders. Body bags used to transport the deceased have seals on them. I can't comment on Thailand's procedure, but even the remains inside a coffin, are in such body bags.

But even if not, second opinions from other autopsies are admissible.

[Bleacher Bum East]

What the lawyer should be pushing for is for an independent DNA testing compared with samples taken in the UK, no match they walk free, easy as that. Why is that not happening?

How many different reasons would you like?

AFAIK there was no DNA other than the victims in the UK.

Chain of custody

Inadmissible

"AFAIK there was no DNA other than the victims in the UK."

Since this is "as far as you know", it is therefore pure speculation and so by definition is not a "reason"

"Chain of custody . . . Inadmissible"

This is a combination of pure speculation and faulty legal reasoning used to assert a definitive conclusion without knowing the facts or the law.

You have no idea what the chain of custody entailed from the time the bodies were handed over to British authorities until the time the post mortem was performed in England.

And contrary to your previous assertions, evidence does not necessarily have to be in the custody of local authorities at all times to be admissible. So you are also speculating that the evidence would be inadmissible but presenting it as a definitive conclusion.

The bottom line is that nobody on TVC has any idea as to whether DNA evidence collected by Thai authorities or British authorities would be (or should be) admissible in court if there is a trial. We don't have anywhere near enough facts to make that determination.

Any claims to the contrary by either side of the debate are misleading and wrong.

More info:

If evidence is in the custody of someone not a local authority, it probably will not enjoy any presumption of reliability, and therefore if there is a significant gap in the chain where no reliable person has custody, it most probably will not be admissible because reliability cannot be established.

However, if it can be established that reliable persons had custody of the evidence up until the time it was tested, and afterwards when it was stored, then a judge could deem it reliable enough to be admitted into evidence.

Unless there is a statute or other type of law stating otherwise, it is always up to the judge to determine if the proper foundation has been laid that the evidence is what it is claimed to be for evidence to be admissible.

For example, if the defense wants to do independent DNA testing, then the sample they test will in fact leave the chain of custody of the local authorities, and they will need to establish their own reliable chain of custody for the independent test to be considered reliable enough for admission as evidence.

Another example would be a civil lawsuit where DNA evidence is presented---here police never have possession of the evidence, but if a proper civil chain of custody is presented the evidence will be admitted.

And an even more relevant example would be if DNA samples were sent to Singapore for a test . . . the samples would have left the custody of local Thai authorities but if reliability can be established the results could still be admitted.

I don't know how a Thai judge would rule or what the likelihood is that this would ever come before the court . . . but if it did come before the court, I think a judge would be hard-pressed to rule evidence inadmissible that British authorities had custody of without any gaps.

And as I've said before, if a Thai judge did rule this evidence inadmissible, it may help the prosecutor win in the courtroom, but will be devastating in the court of public opinion as to whether it was a fair trial ... and both need to be won for the prosecution and Thai legal system to declare any type of victory.

Edited November 20, 2014 by Bleacher Bum East

[Kru Baa]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

The other day an ex-MP was released having been found guilty of murder of a rival and after having been given the death sentence. OF course he is a rich man able to put up, for him, a relatively small amount of cash to secure his release (1.35 million baht). If they can release a man on death row, why cannot they release these two who have been framed?

Well, because they don't have 1.35 million baht and the guys who actually did the murder probably do have at least that much money.

[CapeThai]

Why when they returned to their room , they were acting normally, as their friend has indicated, and why no blood on their clothes .

Blood on there clothes with the Dna would have been conclusive evidence.

Total farce .

When do you think they were arrested?

Yes agreed , but no clothes were found with blood on them.

Because their innocent and have absolutely nothing to do with the murders. Is it so difficult to see ?

[jdinasia]

What the lawyer should be pushing for is for an independent DNA testing compared with samples taken in the UK, no match they walk free, easy as that. Why is that not happening?

How many different reasons would you like?

AFAIK there was no DNA other than the victims in the UK.

Chain of custody

Inadmissible

.

Ah, so a medical examiner who does an independent examination does it just for fun because, according to you, there is no chain of custody and therefore his expert testimony would be inadmissible?

Uh, no. Happens all the time, especially in high profile cases, and even across borders. Body bags used to transport the deceased have seals on them. I can't comment on Thailand's procedure, but even the remains inside a coffin, are in such body bags.

But even if not, second opinions from other autopsies are admissible.

Can you comment on the admissibility in a Thai court, after a body has been shipped?

A second opinion on a cause of death may be admissible, not sure though.

[HeijoshinCool]

What the lawyer should be pushing for is for an independent DNA testing compared with samples taken in the UK, no match they walk free, easy as that. Why is that not happening?

How many different reasons would you like?

AFAIK there was no DNA other than the victims in the UK.

Chain of custody

Inadmissible

.

Ah, so a medical examiner who does an independent examination does it just for fun because, according to you, there is no chain of custody and therefore his expert testimony would be inadmissible?

Uh, no. Happens all the time, especially in high profile cases, and even across borders. Body bags used to transport the deceased have seals on them. I can't comment on Thailand's procedure, but even the remains inside a coffin, are in such body bags.

But even if not, second opinions from other autopsies are admissible.

Can you comment on the admissibility in a Thai court, after a body has been shipped?

A second opinion on a cause of death may be admissible, not sure though.

.

Nope. Sure can't, and I readily admit it.

But I could go on for days about the topic when it comes to the States. And I can state with confidence that the law is similar in many countries. I have participated in such cases between the U.S. and Mexico, among other Latin America countries. It's one of the reasons numbered seals are put on body bags.

But like I said above, I don't know Thailand's procedures … or for that matter, if they even have any standardized procedures they adhere to.

[TomJoad]

"Thai officials started out, at the earlier stages of the investigation, saying that Thailand didn't have the facilities to type DNA. That apparently changed. Everyone, except those who are shielding the headman's people from justice, want the DNA trail to be verified by outsiders - all the way from the specimens taken from the female victim."

I believe the DNA of the suspects was tested in Singapore, not Thailand (and the Singapore lab concluded the DNA was of Asian origin).

[Lozza]

What's happened to the third myanmar guy who was held as a witness, is he still incarcerated?. The bodies washed up in KT, what did they know?

[Baerboxer]

Has it been revealed in public how these 2 devious Burmese managed to steal all cctv footage(except for the 2 minute blurry running man clip) from all businesses on Sairee beach close to where they were alledged to have murdered the 2 Brits?

It is such a shame they did this, especially for themselves. Having the cctv footage of the argument in the bar before the murders would have likely helped the 2B's case.

Has it been revealed publicly that there was a row in the bar, outside the bar, or anywhere before the murders?

I have followed the case but can't find where any witness, especially the friends of the victims, or other foreign tourists have confirmed this. (Ignoring the ramblings of McAnna). There must have been witnesses.

Sorry if I've missed that, but I can't find it. Surely the Thai police (and hopefully the British police) would have taken detailed statements from witnesses who were with the victims on the night of the murders?

The Thai police have issued statements basely supporting whatever outcome they hoped for.

You would need to look at foreign news sources and facebook pages. Just google it, you will find various sources.

Facebook is not a reliable source. Lots of rumor, no actual witnesses or witness statements. McAnna seems to say different contradictory things and has gone to ground.

Initial reports about rows in foreign press were based on McAnna's early comments. Again speculative without any corroboration.

Police here mostly do what they want to do, to suit their own purposes. That has been shown time and time again in basic law enforcement let alone criminal investigations.

I would have expected the Norfolk police to have questioned the victims friends as part of preparing information for the inquest. The inquest may reveal what these witnesses say about a row in the bar. There were other foreigners there on that night too, whom the victims met whilst on holiday. It seems strange that none of these have come forward and made comments to the media. If there was a row, all these witnesses would be able to identify the parties who rowed with the victims. That would be a massive help to the defense lawyers and also raise questions as to why those lines of inquiry were not followed, or if they were, why nothing has been released regarding them. Until that happens, the row in the bar is only speculation, supported by those who want a particular outcome too.

[SteveFong]

"Thai officials started out, at the earlier stages of the investigation, saying that Thailand didn't have the facilities to type DNA. That apparently changed. Everyone, except those who are shielding the headman's people from justice, want the DNA trail to be verified by outsiders - all the way from the specimens taken from the female victim."

I believe the DNA of the suspects was tested in Singapore, not Thailand (and the Singapore lab concluded the DNA was of Asian origin).

no DNA was ever sent to Singapore

they said first, to the FBI, then they said no, to Singapore,

then they said no, Chaing Mai

no reason to believe them about anything related to the DNA now

[Baerboxer]

What the lawyer should be pushing for is for an independent DNA testing compared with samples taken in the UK, no match they walk free, easy as that. Why is that not happening?

How many different reasons would you like? AFAIK there was no DNA other than the victims in the UK. Chain of custody Inadmissible

Sounding like a defense lawyer again. Of course independent DNA is needed. Thai officials know that, and that's why they want the Brits involved as little as possible. Thai officials started out, at the earlier stages of the investigation, saying that Thailand didn't have the facilities to type DNA. That apparently changed. Everyone, except those who are shielding the headman's people from justice, want the DNA trail to be verified by outsiders - all the way from the specimens taken from the female victim. You'll notice, Thai officials (and JD and the headman's people) don't want any scrutiny of the DNA found in/on the victim. No surprise. You'll also notice they will do all they can to avoid that happening, whether it be legal maneuverings or hiding DNA cards (with DNA typing), or hushing-up the British, or whatever.

Surely the Thai police (and hopefully the British police) would have taken detailed statements from witnesses who were with the victims on the night of the murders?

That's assuming the Thai cops are doing a decent job - and that's a Biiiiig assumption. Most if not all the cops doing the investigating haven't been trained in crime scene investigations. All went to Thai schools which are stuck in rote-learning (ask no questions). There are no independent crime investigators in Thailand as far as I know. So, all the Thai investigators are duty-bound to toe the officials line. None, except top brass, can speak up. In this case, it's frame-the-Burmese and shield-the-headman's-people. Simple. That's also why Thai investigators long-ago dismissed the men who should be prime suspects, and why cops appear to have done no investigating for the past 6 weeks. It appears all they've done in recent weeks is try to get the frame-up text to comply with what prosecutors want to see. If it weren't for social media interfering, this case would have resolved like other cases which frame scapegoats, and then everyone could go on to what they were doing and forget about it. Everyone, except the victims' families and the 2 boys who got framed - and perhaps future victims of the real perps who are out going to parties, slipping date-rape mickeys in drinks of the prettiest, youngest, most vivacious farang chicks.

You have made up your mind up based on social media rumor mills, and taking which bits of the bodged police inquiry fit the text you would like to see - who is guilty and innocent. Can you see any dangers in that?

Probably not.

[metisdead]

A post containing a link to Bangkok Post has been removed. It was off topic anyway.

[CapFarmer]

What the lawyer should be pushing for is for an independent DNA testing compared with samples taken in the UK, no match they walk free, easy as that. Why is that not happening?

How many different reasons would you like?

AFAIK there was no DNA other than the victims in the UK.

Chain of custody

Inadmissible

.

Ah, so a medical examiner who does an independent examination does it just for fun because, according to you, there is no chain of custody and therefore his expert testimony would be inadmissible?

Uh, no. Happens all the time, especially in high profile cases, and even across borders. Body bags used to transport the deceased have seals on them. I can't comment on Thailand's procedure, but even the remains inside a coffin, are in such body bags.

But even if not, second opinions from other autopsies are admissible.

Can you comment on the admissibility in a Thai court, after a body has been shipped?

A second opinion on a cause of death may be admissible, not sure though.

Not sure how about other countries procedures or agreements with Thailand; however, for US a citizen's death overseas, the US embassy accepts the remains and is responsible for the final sealing of the casket. Final decisions will be based on the desires of next of kin; however, as standard US operating procedure, there will be forensics inspections as well as toxicology and DNA evidence collection prior to any embalming or final preparation of the body. I believe that the UK has similar operating procedures. The UK's inquiry, scheduled for early January, should provide some clarity.

[stephen terry]

The defence lawyers are not able to prepare a proper defence until the B2 are released on bail. And the prosecutor seems hell-bent on indicting them, so is opposing bail. The court has granted another detention period, the fifth.

Being fair to both the B2 and RTP, don't think so. The dice are loaded against the B2. Unless, of course it's planned to release them after the 84 day period has elapsed - but I don't hold out a lot of hope in that.

Edited November 20, 2014 by stephen terry

[whitfield]

"Thai officials started out, at the earlier stages of the investigation, saying that Thailand didn't have the facilities to type DNA. That apparently changed. Everyone, except those who are shielding the headman's people from justice, want the DNA trail to be verified by outsiders - all the way from the specimens taken from the female victim."

I believe the DNA of the suspects was tested in Singapore, not Thailand (and the Singapore lab concluded the DNA was of Asian origin).

no DNA was ever sent to Singapore

they said first, to the FBI, then they said no, to Singapore,

then they said no, Chaing Mai

no reason to believe them about anything related to the DNA now

In late 2009 I had to have my son's DNA tested in a paternity/custody suit. It was categorically affirmed that Thailand didn't have the facilities to match a father and son and I had to send samples to the UK. Of course things may have changed in the intervening period.

[falangjim]

Sad that in 2014 there are so many things wrong, or need fixing in LOS.....but won't be!

I'd say the 2 Burmese are not out of the woods yet. And despite everything that has transpired, are we sure they had no involvement in the murders???????

My two cents says are involved, but being forced to carry bodies for fear of their own lives doesn't really count as criminal involvement. I bet they could shed some light on what really happened once released. You're right, though. They aren't out of the woods. And as a Thai pointed out to me, we're under junta rule, which basically means whatever they want to happen will happen.

Edited November 20, 2014 by falangjim

[sambum]

The other day an ex-MP was released having been found guilty of murder of a rival and after having been given the death sentence. OF course he is a rich man able to put up, for him, a relatively small amount of cash to secure his release (1.35 million baht). If they can release a man on death row, why cannot they release these two who have been framed?

Astonishing! (Not! - Money talks very loudly here in LOS!)

[AleG]

The other day an ex-MP was released having been found guilty of murder of a rival and after having been given the death sentence. OF course he is a rich man able to put up, for him, a relatively small amount of cash to secure his release (1.35 million baht). If they can release a man on death row, why cannot they release these two who have been framed?

Astonishing! (Not! - Money talks very loudly here in LOS!)

Astonishing that people just gobble up whatever they are told when it fits their preconceptions.

As I pointed out on post #33 what retarious presents is not true, false, wrong, not a fact. The man he alludes to, Kanchit Thapsawuan is currently in Bang Khwan prison under a death sentence.

Once again this illustrates what the case against the Koh Tao headman's son was built upon, someone says something, people don't bother with finding out the facts and before you know it everyone "knows" the guy is guilty because they heard this or that on Internet; epistemological responsibility be damned.