Where is our international community headed in Chiang Mai?

[femi fan]

Where is our international community headed in Chiang Mai?

In recent times we’ve heard about non-Thais playing live music being ousted from doing so. Promoting the arts and giving entertainment not possible without a work permit. Work permit not possible. Play the music and keep people happy in their free time illegally, or don’t do it.

Well-established centres offering yoga, tai chi, and other various spiritual-type workshops and activities which are aimed at improving the health and harmony of citizens, and the advancement of quality of life, raided and stopped from operating. Offering services to the community, but illegally because work permits not possible.

Anybody wishing to volunteer their services, for no gain or other profit, not allowed to do so without a work permit. Difficult to get. Do so illegally, or recipients of volunteer work unable to receive.

People who are legitimately married to Thai citizens are not allowed to work and support their family unless they have a work permit. Only a few different kinds of jobs possible, very difficult process to tackle if one can do one of those jobs. Married non-Thais expected to show a monthly income to get their visa, but not allowed to work, or, let’s say, it’s very difficult to do so.

People been living in Thailand for years, reporting in every three months like a common criminal let out of prison and placed under limited freedom of movement.

There will be plenty of other stories, but the above are representative of what is happening these days and of long-standing laws that apply to foreigners living here in Chiang Mai.

These laws need updating, but it seems there is no conduit for us to make our voices heard. Laws protecting foreigners living here are non-existent, yet this is now the modern world. But the big problem is we have no voice, no outlet to air our concerns. Perhaps thaivisa is a chance for people to air their ideas and concepts for how we can hang on here while trying to find ways of asking the Thai Government to spend time making life a bit fairer for non-Thais living here.

Chiang Mai is a very special place in terms of its spirit, creativity, design, clever minds, and variety of foods and entertainment places. It is a particularly international place in our modern global world. It could be a serious offering as a model for how citizens from various nations can get along with each other, amongst a most tolerant host population.

But immigration keep busting people and places because they don’t comform to laws they have little or no hope in comforming to.

I wonder sometimes too if local Thais in CM can be approached by us and asked to consider our plight? And it is a plight, no bones about it. Creative and positive and upstanding foreign citizens are being squeezed away from here. This is paritcularly distressing for those who have married Thais, or who have lived here for so long it feels totally like their home.

Is there room, at least, for a debate about this on this forum??

Ideas and reactions most welcome on this thread. Tried to keep the OP as short as possible!

[Briggsy]

You need to join the Thai patronage system. This is not the West. The fundamental structure of Asian societies is the patronage system. If you believe you can come here and set up non-registered businesses or non-profit organisations just because you want to, you can't. But your chance of doing it successfully increases exponentially, if you do it under the patronage of a senior figure such as a politician or senior police officer.

Edited January 24, 2015 by Briggsy

[Beetlejuice]

Considering the types of dross that is arriving from the west into Thailand lately I am glad that farangs are not permitted to gain any real footholds in Chiang Mai.

The simple fact is that foreigners of little wealth are not needed or wanted in Thailand. It is still possible for those who can bring a reasonable amount of foreign investment into the country that actually benefits the Thais to do business here. For example the British bicycle guy that is expanding his business all over Thailand and so on.

[femi fan]

I'm hoping any debate this thread throws up will not be caught up with this kind of reply. Firstly the claims are just not true, secondly i really wanted a debate that is a wee bit more objective in terms of offering serious ideas rather than deep-rooted beliefs.

Such beliefs may be true to an extent, but only relating to the past. Times have changed. Laws pertaining to the ability of foreigners to work here, get married and work here, and so on, have not changed. This thread would like to debate these laws, and to throw up ideas for how a collective voice can be made and heard to try and bring about positive change for people who add to the flavour and positivity in this nation, in particular our town here in Chiang Mai.

[femi fan]

Considering the types of dross that is arriving from the west into Thailand lately I am glad that farangs are not permitted to gain any real footholds in Chiang Mai.

The simple fact is that foreigners of little wealth are not needed or wanted in Thailand. It is still possible for those who can bring a reasonable amount of foreign investment into the country that actually benefits the Thais to do business here. For example the British bicycle guy that is expanding his business all over Thailand and so on.

More subjective beliefs. I do hope the quality of replies can improve soon!

Did you even read my post man? I was talking about musicians and yoga and tai chi groups and teachers getting busted for advancing the lives of the citizens here, thai and farang alike. Then you enter talking about 'dross'.

And not all of life is measured by fat cat businessmen who have millions to invest. I was referring to the arts, the things that add to communities and their wellbeing.

Please add something worthwhile here, or go to another thread. And, at the absolute minimum, read my OP properly.

[JulieM]

I assume the OP is under 50 and doesn't qualify for a retirement visa.

In that case, I know some people under the age of 50 from my country (USA) who live here reasonably secure in their ability to stay here. All it takes is a trip to the USA every 15 months or so to get a triple entry tourist visa. When extensions are no longer possible, a trip to Lao to get a double entry visa. When extensions to that visa are no longer possible, a nice trip back to the USA for a month to get a new triple entry visa.

Is this too hard? Too expensive? Or perhaps non-US foreigners face different difficulties? I'm really just trying to understand why it is so hard to legally stay here for some people.

[I Like Thai]

I'm hoping any debate this thread throws up will not be caught up with this kind of reply. Firstly the claims are just not true, secondly i really wanted a debate that is a wee bit more objective in terms of offering serious ideas rather than deep-rooted beliefs.

Such beliefs may be true to an extent, but only relating to the past. Times have changed. Laws pertaining to the ability of foreigners to work here, get married and work here, and so on, have not changed. This thread would like to debate these laws, and to throw up ideas for how a collective voice can be made and heard to try and bring about positive change for people who add to the flavour and positivity in this nation, in particular our town here in Chiang Mai.

You don't want an objective debate, you want replies that agree with you.

[Dante99]

I assume the OP is under 50 and doesn't qualify for a retirement visa.

In that case, I know some people under the age of 50 from my country (USA) who live here reasonably secure in their ability to stay here. All it takes is a trip to the USA every 15 months or so to get a triple entry tourist visa. When extensions are no longer possible, a trip to Lao to get a double entry visa. When extensions to that visa are no longer possible, a nice trip back to the USA for a month to get a new triple entry visa.

Is this too hard? Too expensive? Or perhaps non-US foreigners face different difficulties? I'm really just trying to understand why it is so hard to legally stay here for some people.

It is not hard. The people have difficulties because they want free dessert and a lot other extras.

[cloudhopper]

The international community (that is not in fact a community) in CM is inevitably headed for increasing levels of cognitive dissonance as they realize that they are regarded as inferiors in all respects.

[seedy]

Quote the OP -People been living in Thailand for years, reporting in every three months like a common criminal let out of prison and placed under limited freedom of movement. Unquote

Costs 47 baht to 90 day report by mail - some hardship

Multiple entry stamp - come and go as I please. No hardship.

Whatever are you talking about ?

[beau thai]

Op, you have read and contributed to Thaivisa for a long time so I am surprised you expected to get intelligent, useful, non-inflammatory replies. It is surely not the nature of the beast.

International community? - there isnt one. What do you mean? All non -thai (japanese/korean/chinese?) Farang only?

Surely CM just has a large cross-section of very varied Non Thai residents and tourists, with many different interests. And, as elsewhere, only a minority are interested in the art, yoga, spirituality to which you refer.

I know there are road bumps, but surely in reality thai people and authorities are fairly tolerant of incomers and their strange non-thai ideas. Immigrants in most countries are not particularly welcome and neither are their attempts to change the nature of the country where they have chosen to relocate. The weekly anti-immigrant marches in Germany are an example. The recent swiss referendum that voted to close the door to immigrants against the advice of their government is another example.

And the diificulties for a thai national to get a schengen and/or uk visa even to visit as a tourist put the boot firmly on the other foot.

There is so much thai bashing on here, and criticism of thainess, I am not sure why this forum would ever be taken seriously as an agent of change.

Contrary to what many seem to believe, we are unimportant to the thai economy and we are tolerated, but why would they roll out the red carpet?

You criticise the 90 day reporting but it is no big deal. many make a virtue of DIY reporting but t is easy and cheap to use an agent to take away any hassle.

Many farang countries would be better off with a similar reporting system for immigrants so they had some chance of tracking overstayers, and others acting illegally.

You are right though- there is no conduit for lobbying for change- I suppose you could try your consulate but I think you know their response.

Seems to me we can only be happy anywhere if we can accept their way of life, their rules, their systems etc etc and not expect them to bend to our will-however sensible it seems to us.

On a bigger scale, the UK wants the EU to change to accommodate UK-it isnt going to happen. UK has to accept what it cant change, or leave.

Same for us.

[bangmai]

No Muslim marches, no gay parades, no heroin addict foreigners playing at Tha Pae Gate for donations, an area that has been relatively safe from the terrorists......why should they change? If I weren't eligible for a retirement visa, I would be in Cambodia or Mexico.

[femi fan]

"Op, you have read and contributed to Thaivisa for a long time so I am surprised you expected to get intelligent, useful, non-inflammatory replies. It is surely not the nature of the beast."

I tried to leave my cynicism behind when i left my home country. Thailand and Thai people were very kind to me in that it allowed me to do this. I do agree with the message you touch upon in relation to much of thaivisa , however i like to think that debate is possible!

JulieM: you along with just about everyone so far doesn't seem to have read my post properly. I'm not talking about staying here, i'm talking about working here, and i'm talking about a community, and how international people able to stay here legally are unable to contribute to the wellbeing of the community due to archaic work permit and marriage laws.

I am not talking about me and my life (i have lived in thailand legally and worked here legally for over 20 years). I'm personally fine, but i do look beyond my own nose towards the wellbeing of the collective, ie the community.

beau thai and cloudhopper:

You clearly both have a different understanding of the word 'community' than i do. It is a collection of people who work towards a common purpose. If you can't see one here, then that's fine, but i can and do see one here. A thriving one, but it's being tested by the enforcement of archaic laws. Which is the main thing i was hoping for a debate on.

Thus far i've been unlucky. Like i said above, i hope the quality improves at some point.

[FolkGuitar]

While these things stated in the original post may in 'substance' be accurate, the fact that they exist is not necessarily a 'problem.'

The laws are made for Thais. Perhaps they don't see these issues as 'problems.' Perhaps they see them as their government protecting them from foreign influence, foreign invasion of business, and foreign incursion of their culture.

Perhaps the problem isn't the problem. Perhaps the problem is 'your' attitude about these conditions.

[femi fan]

Surely CM just has a large cross-section of very varied Non Thai residents and tourists, with many different interests. And, as elsewhere, only a minority are interested in the art, yoga, spirituality to which you refer.

I know there are road bumps, but surely in reality thai people and authorities are fairly tolerant of incomers and their strange non-thai ideas.

There is so much thai bashing on here, and criticism of thainess, I am not sure why this forum would ever be taken seriously as an agent of change.

Contrary to what many seem to believe, we are unimportant to the thai economy and we are tolerated, but why would they roll out the red carpet?

You criticise the 90 day reporting but it is no big deal. many make a virtue of DIY reporting but t is easy and cheap to use an agent to take away any hassle.

You are right though- there is no conduit for lobbying for change- I suppose you could try your consulate but I think you know their response.

Seems to me we can only be happy anywhere if we can accept their way of life, their rules, their systems etc etc and not expect them to bend to our will-however sensible it seems to us.

Thanks for the effort to reply. I've cut out the bits that aren't to do with the topic i've started, and will address the bits that are left in your post.

I happen to believe that the minority is a very important part of any community that wants to be inclusive and democratic and forward-thinking. The arts are a vital aspect of what it means to be human. We need them more than ever nowadays. It is the problems the artists in our community are facing that has got me writing here. I don't want majority rule, i would like room for all voices with positive intentions.

I'm not suggesting this forum be an agent for change, i'm actually after ideas of how we might get change through using this forum.

I disagree that we are 'unimportant' to the economy, and that we are 'tolerated'. By some yes, by many no. And you go from 'tolerated' to 'red carpet'. Nothing in between those two extremes, no??! My experiences of Thai people in my 20+ years here are that, just like any other people in the world, if treated with respect and an effort to integrate on their patch, they welcome you as a fellow human being, no problem. I know this is not the common view here on thaivisa, but this is not my view, it's my experience, time and time again.

I will continually criticise the 90 day reporting. It may be 'no big deal'to you, but i have other reasons for criticising it, which i did allude to in my OP.

If we just go about our lives accepting the way of life wherever we hang our coat, then life would never evolve. Millions of Thais are wanting life to get better, and are now challenging the status quo in our internet communications age. They are most interested in foreign ways and customs and like to learn from other nations and their ways. I don't know if this is the case in the government, but i'm talking about the thai citizens and people on the street, living lives just like we do.

I am very happy thank you. But lots of people aren't. I don't like to sit in my little world and accept this state of affairs.

[seedy]

unable to contribute to the wellbeing of the community due to archaic work permit and marriage laws.

I contribute to the well being of the community daily, in my interaction with the Thai people.

Be kind always, help those less fortunate.

If you mean some NGO/business/collective attempt to "help" the community, sorry, not my bag.

[Mario2008]

1 post containing graphic video removed.

Material posted must be suitable for family viewing.

[bangmai]

unable to contribute to the wellbeing of the community due to archaic work permit and marriage laws.

I contribute to the well being of the community daily, in my interaction with the Thai people.

Be kind always, help those less fortunate.

If you mean some NGO/business/collective attempt to "help" the community, sorry, not my bag.

you mean you don't support orphanage tourism or paying to see wild animals drugged? What a party pooper.

[Ulysses G.]

In most ways, it is much easier for foreigners than when I first got here. Almost no one had long term visas and the closet place to get a tourist visa was Penang. It seemed like everyone was constantly doing visa runs and it took a lot longer and was more expensive.

Of course, I wish things were more convenient for us, but gave up on Thais doing what we thing is logical long ago. If wishes were horses, beggars would ride.

[JulieM]

OP, OK, you are referring to "working" here, not staying here. Many people are working here as volunteers, and although that may violate the letter of the law, I don't know of one case where they have been in trouble with the law.

Now if you are referring to working here so as to earn enough money to stay here, you are in the wrong place. Unless the people you are referring to have the skill set to gain valid, legal employment, they shouldn't be here.

I know tons of young guys (and some not so young) who have been living here and working here for over a decade, some legal, some not. They are constantly broke (or nearly broke), they have no pension and no future. God knows what they will do when they become senior citizens.

And if someone married a Thai without the ability to support that relationship financially, they get no sympathy from me. That may sound harsh, but I know young couples with kids who have no business being parents. If their finances were secure I could understand it, but many are broke.

Edited January 24, 2015 by JulieM

[trainman34014]

Not enough people do their homework before they settle here. It took me five years of comings and goings to weigh everything up and decide to come here and get married as a retiree.

There is a mountain of information available for anyone to read up on as well as what your eyes and ears teach you as you ponder your position.

Anyone who makes the conscious decision to settle here realises that in many ways Thailand is 50 to 75 years behind the Western World. Some people like it the way it is and some don't....the latter can always up sticks and leave for another Paradise. Nobody is making anyone stay.

[beau thai]

Surely CM just has a large cross-section of very varied Non Thai residents and tourists, with many different interests. And, as elsewhere, only a minority are interested in the art, yoga, spirituality to which you refer.

I know there are road bumps, but surely in reality thai people and authorities are fairly tolerant of incomers and their strange non-thai ideas.

There is so much thai bashing on here, and criticism of thainess, I am not sure why this forum would ever be taken seriously as an agent of change.

Contrary to what many seem to believe, we are unimportant to the thai economy and we are tolerated, but why would they roll out the red carpet?

You criticise the 90 day reporting but it is no big deal. many make a virtue of DIY reporting but t is easy and cheap to use an agent to take away any hassle.

You are right though- there is no conduit for lobbying for change- I suppose you could try your consulate but I think you know their response.

Seems to me we can only be happy anywhere if we can accept their way of life, their rules, their systems etc etc and not expect them to bend to our will-however sensible it seems to us.

Thanks for the effort to reply. I've cut out the bits that aren't to do with the topic i've started, and will address the bits that are left in your post.

I happen to believe that the minority is a very important part of any community that wants to be inclusive and democratic and forward-thinking. The arts are a vital aspect of what it means to be human. We need them more than ever nowadays. It is the problems the artists in our community are facing that has got me writing here. I don't want majority rule, i would like room for all voices with positive intentions.

I'm not suggesting this forum be an agent for change, i'm actually after ideas of how we might get change through using this forum.

I disagree that we are 'unimportant' to the economy, and that we are 'tolerated'. By some yes, by many no. And you go from 'tolerated' to 'red carpet'. Nothing in between those two extremes, no??! My experiences of Thai people in my 20+ years here are that, just like any other people in the world, if treated with respect and an effort to integrate on their patch, they welcome you as a fellow human being, no problem. I know this is not the common view here on thaivisa, but this is not my view, it's my experience, time and time again.

I will continually criticise the 90 day reporting. It may be 'no big deal'to you, but i have other reasons for criticising it, which i did allude to in my OP.

If we just go about our lives accepting the way of life wherever we hang our coat, then life would never evolve. Millions of Thais are wanting life to get better, and are now challenging the status quo in our internet communications age. They are most interested in foreign ways and customs and like to learn from other nations and their ways. I don't know if this is the case in the government, but i'm talking about the thai citizens and people on the street, living lives just like we do.

I am very happy thank you. But lots of people aren't. I don't like to sit in my little world and accept this state of affairs.

'If we just go about our lives accepting the way of life wherever we hang our coat, then life would never evolve'.

'I am very happy thank you. But lots of people aren't.'

'I don't like to sit in my little world and accept this state of affairs.'

Why?? You write as though you feel you should have a purpose, and help life to evolve- would that be evolve towards your way of thinking?

I think most people would be happier if they could accept and adjust to the way things are, but if you want to change the thai approach to foreigners and that will make you even happier, then go for it.

Meanwhile, I will continue to happily accept life here. As the old quote says 'God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference'.

[femi fan]

OP, OK, you are referring to "working" here, not staying here. Many people are working here as volunteers, and although that may violate the letter of the law, I don't know of one case where they have been in trouble with the law.

Now if you are referring to working here so as to earn enough money to stay here, you are in the wrong place. Unless the people you are referring to have the skill set to gain valid, legal employment, they shouldn't be here.

I know tons of young guys (and some not so young) who have been living here and working here for over a decade, some legal, some not. They are constantly broke (or nearly broke), they have no pension and no future. God knows what they will do when they become senior citizens.

And if someone married a Thai without the ability to support that relationship financially, they get no sympathy from me. That may sound harsh, but I know young couples with kids who have no business being parents. If their finances were secure I could understand it, but many are broke.

Well Julie, people playing music to entertain thais and foreigners alike violated the letter of the law, and got moved on, no more music, no more entertainment. This has never been the case in my experience before, but what of the future? Which is in my question title for the thread. Today, musicians and yoga teachers, tomorrow??

Young guys are not the slightest bit interested in when they become senior citizens, but how is this relevant to this thread? Or whether the poeple you personally know are broke or not?

Look, thank you for responding, but it still feels like you've not read my OP.

[femi fan]

Why?? You write as though you feel you should have a purpose, and help life to evolve- would that be evolve towards your way of thinking?

I think most people would be happier if they could accept and adjust to the way things are, but if you want to change the thai approach to foreigners and that will make you even happier, then go for it.

Meanwhile, I will continue to happily accept life here. As the old quote says 'God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference'.

Why are you writing about your perceptions of me as a person, and offering up your own character to this thread?

And can you not even see that the 'old quote' you offer up includes advice to do what i'm actually doing on this thread?? I'm doing what your quote suggests to do, and you're calling me for it? How strange.

Beginning to look like this thread is a complete waste of time. Hope i'm wrong.

[JulieM]

OP, can you re-state your question? I've re-read the OP and it meanders to the point of being unintelligible. I think you mean to say this, but correct me if I am wrong:

"I have friends who need to support themselves and, in some cases, their Thai spouses/children. Unfortunately, it is very hard to do here since work permits are not that easy to obtain. We love Chiang Mai and want to stay here and support the community with the skills we have to offer. What can we do?"

[femi fan]

OP, can you re-state your question? I've re-read the OP and it meanders to the point of being unintelligible. I think you mean to say this, but correct me if I am wrong:

"I have friends who need to support themselves and, in some cases, their Thai spouses/children. Unfortunately, it is very hard to do here since work permits are not that easy to obtain. We love Chiang Mai and want to stay here and support the community with the skills we have to offer. What can we do?"

No Julie, i cannot restate my question, it's in the title of the thread. And if my post is unintelligible to you, then bad luck, go and find a thread where you can understand what folk are saying.

But i can say reply in the affirmative for your second request. You are wrong.

[JulieM]

Ummm. OK. The "international community" as I see it is doing just fine. I've been here since 2001. People come and go. Most people who leave do so in search of better job opportunities. It's all good.

[Dante99]

Not enough people do their homework before they settle here.

+ 56,478,485,159

It is rather amazing the perceptions they bring along and attempt to impose on CM and Thailand politically, legally and culturally.... Couldn't change shit at home but they are certainly going to do it here. So many are so unplugged it is no wonder Thais at times respond negatively.

[Beetlejuice]

Considering the types of dross that is arriving from the west into Thailand lately I am glad that farangs are not permitted to gain any real footholds in Chiang Mai.

The simple fact is that foreigners of little wealth are not needed or wanted in Thailand. It is still possible for those who can bring a reasonable amount of foreign investment into the country that actually benefits the Thais to do business here. For example the British bicycle guy that is expanding his business all over Thailand and so on.

More subjective beliefs. I do hope the quality of replies can improve soon!

Did you even read my post man? I was talking about musicians and yoga and tai chi groups and teachers getting busted for advancing the lives of the citizens here, thai and farang alike. Then you enter talking about 'dross'.

And not all of life is measured by fat cat businessmen who have millions to invest. I was referring to the arts, the things that add to communities and their wellbeing.

Please add something worthwhile here, or go to another thread. And, at the absolute minimum, read my OP properly.

That`s your opinion. I see western influences in Thailand as a contamination not an advancement. This is the same old our ways are bigger and better than yours superior farang attitudes, something I was well glad to get away from in my home country. Thailand has it`s own unique culture, I like it and want it to stay that way.

If I want to listen to western music I can buy it on a CD, or go into Utube or listen on the music channel. Never been interested in yoga or the weird tai chi (whatever that is and don`t care) and contrary to what you may think, there are many of us that can live without it.

Thailand only wants farangs that are of benefit to the country, it has to be a give and take scenario, not a grazing ground and a supporter for the lower archivers in their home countries that become bored with their mundane lives over there and can only stay in Thailand for the long term by hustling. I certainly would not want farangs of little wealth given rights to buy and own real estate here, types of loser trailer park trash and council home tenants overwhelming my area and laying down the rules. Pattaya is a typical example as to how low class farangs can degrade an area.

I am very satisfied with my lifestyle in Chiang Mai and loving it. That`s because I can fulfil all the imposed conditions of the Immigration Department, so no problem. For those like you who don`t consider that farangs are getting a fair deal here, then you have an option of moving on to destinations that maybe more accommodating to your types or start a revolution.

[philw]

Considering the types of dross that is arriving from the west into Thailand lately I am glad that farangs are not permitted to gain any real footholds in Chiang Mai.

The simple fact is that foreigners of little wealth are not needed or wanted in Thailand. It is still possible for those who can bring a reasonable amount of foreign investment into the country that actually benefits the Thais to do business here. For example the British bicycle guy that is expanding his business all over Thailand and so on.

More subjective beliefs. I do hope the quality of replies can improve soon!

Did you even read my post man? I was talking about musicians and yoga and tai chi groups and teachers getting busted for advancing the lives of the citizens here, thai and farang alike. Then you enter talking about 'dross'.

And not all of life is measured by fat cat businessmen who have millions to invest. I was referring to the arts, the things that add to communities and their wellbeing.

Please add something worthwhile here, or go to another thread. And, at the absolute minimum, read my OP properly.

That`s your opinion. I see western influences in Thailand as a contamination not an advancement. This is the same old our ways are bigger and better than yours superior farang attitudes, something I was well glad to get away from in my home country. Thailand has it`s own unique culture, I like it and want it to stay that way.

If I want to listen to western music I can buy it on a CD, or go into Utube or listen on the music channel. Never been interested in yoga or the weird tai chi (whatever that is and don`t care) and contrary to what you may think, there are many of us that can live without it.

Thailand only wants farangs that are of benefit to the country, it has to be a give and take scenario, not a grazing ground and a supporter for the lower archivers in their home countries that become bored with their mundane lives over there and can only stay in Thailand for the long term by hustling. I certainly would not want farangs of little wealth given rights to buy and own real estate here, types of loser trailer park trash and council home tenants overwhelming my area and laying down the rules. Pattaya is a typical example as to how low class farangs can degrade an area.

I am very satisfied with my lifestyle in Chiang Mai and loving it. That`s because I can fulfil all the imposed conditions of the Immigration Department, so no problem. For those like you who don`t consider that farangs are getting a fair deal here, then you have an option of moving on to destinations that maybe more accommodating to your types or start a revolution.

Yes, I fully agree.

There are far too many geriatric, judgmental westerners here in Chiangmai.

Tai chi is fun and probably about 500 million Chinese people use it as a healthy daily exercise, every single day.

I realise you don't understand it, but what is weird about it ?

To which "dross" do you refer ??

Is a "lower archiver" a dwarfish librarian ??