Koh Tao: Trial opens for 2 accused of killing British tourists

[catsanddogs]

I am not religious in any way, but I am praying our lost kids will end up looking down on us with a smile cos WE asked questions and got stuff moving..........Dee ma to 99% of you......The fighting spirit.......Dee ma..

Ditto transam.

[natway09]

Which label do I put on which sample? All organized

[catsanddogs]

I spent 2 weeks on Koh Tao and Phangan with my Thai wife, returned a few days ago. Local people on Phangan told us a lot (less so on Koh Tao but still), but this trial is a joke, apparantly everybody knows who did it, cost his father, a local village head or something, a lot of bribe money (at least 30 million baht, going to the highest levels)

The real culprit will never be jailed.

Koh Tao is all mafia (or how one would like to call it), this is an ugly case but other things happened there. Small island, almost no police. Must have been nice once but now overdeloped, expensive, full of scams.

Phangan is nicer.

The real culprit will never be jailed.

I'm still seeing the cup as half full regards this. There is always the chance the families of the victims will conduct private investigation and by God I'm sure there are plenty of people who are prepared to financially support them if they do so.

[JLCrab]

I spent 2 weeks on Koh Tao and Phangan with my Thai wife, returned a few days ago. Local people on Phangan told us a lot (less so on Koh Tao but still), but this trial is a joke, apparantly everybody knows who did it, cost his father, a local village head or something, a lot of bribe money (at least 30 million baht, going to the highest levels)

The real culprit will never be jailed.

Koh Tao is all mafia (or how one would like to call it), this is an ugly case but other things happened there. Small island, almost no police. Must have been nice once but now overdeloped, expensive, full of scams.

Phangan is nicer.

Well bribe money is getting more reasonable for the big guy:

Posted 2014-10-26 14:16:39

Word on the island is the HUSH MONEY is 120 million baht.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/770947-british-police-arrive-in-thailand-to-observe-koh-tao-murder-probe/page-19#entry8586374

[Blackfox]

I'm still seeing the cup as half full regards this. There is always the chance the families of the victims will conduct private investigation and by God I'm sure there are plenty of people who are prepared to financially support them if they do so.[/size]

I will mate, as an Aussie of British stock.

If this case goes sour, the UK government have a duty to intervene, if not directly, then covertly.....they've lost two young souls.

Edited July 24, 2015 by Blackfox

[catsanddogs]

I spent 2 weeks on Koh Tao and Phangan with my Thai wife, returned a few days ago. Local people on Phangan told us a lot (less so on Koh Tao but still), but this trial is a joke, apparantly everybody knows who did it, cost his father, a local village head or something, a lot of bribe money (at least 30 million baht, going to the highest levels)

The real culprit will never be jailed.

Koh Tao is all mafia (or how one would like to call it), this is an ugly case but other things happened there. Small island, almost no police. Must have been nice once but now overdeloped, expensive, full of scams.

Phangan is nicer.

The real culprit will never be jailed.

I'm still seeing the cup as half full regards this. There is always the chance the families of the victims will conduct private investigation and by God I'm sure there are plenty of people who are prepared to financially support them if they do so.

I will mate, as an Aussie of British stock.

If this case goes sour, the UK government have a duty to intervene, if not directly, then covertly.

Great stuff Blackbox. Me too. I've got a grand to start with from cancelling my overpriced pet insurance for all my beasts. Willing to donate that should the need arise. Just want to see the bas*ards off this planet.

[Whyamiandwhatamidoinghere]

Defense must be very sure their clients are not guilty to want dna retested. If it comes back and matches the accused they are in trouble. But then again, defense does not have to show prosecution or the court the result of the test. They dont have to prove innocence, the prosecution must prove guilt.

In my humble view all they need to do is prove a break in the chain of custody to have the current dna tossed out.

But TIT so I suppose anything can happen in a Thai court.

Perhaps they DO know what the Brits have up their sleeve....

You are taught in western law schools never to ask a question you don't already know the answer to and not request DNA tests/retest unless you know there will not be a match. That's law school 101 at Harvard.

[loonodingle]

How do you check for DNA traces with a magnifying glass ? Didn't think the killer(s) would have taken the boat that left 1 hour after the murders and didn't think that the B2 wearing different clothes than the suspect shown on CCTV was relevant !!!!!!!!! Oh my Buddha !

The earlier references to the Keystone Cops and Laurel & Hardy no longer apply, this is a real murder trial and even the most silly script writer could not have thought of such an all mighty cock-up. The RTP losing face has just gone thermo-nuclear. How on earth are they ever ever going to live this down !

Do you think they really care that much. Business is booming on Koh Tao. Its history. The Sky man doesn't show at the court daily as he did before. Cant say I have seen the BBC guy Johah Fisher either. I do wonder whether they have been scared off and report from a distance. The tentacles of the Mafia stretch far and wide

Such a travesty of justice

[JLCrab]

I've said many times if this is a case made of whole-cloth, with any kind of reasonable media access, the Prosecution will not be able to pull it off. Media access, at least so far, is greater than many on here have predicted.

Not to many media getting access to the small courtroom.

Reuters, BBC, SkyNEWS, and 2 freelancers (Mairs and Yuen) among maybe others are reporting from the Courthouse on the island whether from inside or not and none have had their work permits revoked.

[loonodingle]

Ok colonel Cherdpong , if this is true , that they actually have the footage , then for god sake check it now. So we at least can find out who the passengers on the boat were.

Very unlikely that a speedboat had left from the main pier, it is used by larger vessels; speedboats normally operate directly from the beach or from small piers at some resorts.

What did you do Ali G borrow your brain from the same police officer while he went for a P.

Really come on.

No stone left unturned......

[loonodingle]

I've said many times if this is a case made of whole-cloth, with any kind of reasonable media access, the Prosecution will not be able to pull it off. Media access, at least so far, is greater than many on here have predicted.

Not to many media getting access to the small courtroom.

Reuters, BBC, SkyNEWS, and 2 freelancers (Mairs and Yuen) among maybe others are reporting from the Courthouse on the island whether from inside or not and none have had their work permits revoked.

Jonah Fisher (BBC) and Jonathon Samuels (Sky) are not there.

Read there twitter feeds

[Oziex1]

Koh Tao police quizzed on why they didn’t look into rumoured bar dispute

Sarah Yuen in Thailand

In testimony in court today, Lieutenant Colonel Kewalee Chanpan, from the forensic division of the Royal Thai Police, said that while the swabs used to obtain the DNA samples from the scene, and the victims’ and suspects’ bodies, would have been destroyed in the testing process, traces of the the DNA extracted from those swabs would still be available for retesting.

The police lieutenant colonel explained that trace DNA material is generally conserved for at least one to two years by the police forensics department.

While she could only speak for her own examination of the alleged murder weapon, some blood-spattered items of clothing, two cigarette butts and a condom found at the scene, she explained to the court that the same should be true for all the DNA samples gathered in the investigation. The officials responsible for the testing of DNA samples taken from the bodies of Ms Witheridge, 23, and 24 year-old David Miller, will appear in court tomorrow. The defence team had already been told by the Royal Thai Police that it could re-examine a few items, including the alleged murder weapon which is a garden hoe. But in court today, based on the new testimony, the defence team was given fresh hope that the more crucial evidence could also be re-examined.

The prosecution claims DNA from the two Burmese suspects, Zaw Lin and Win Zaw Htun, both aged 22, was found on or in Ms Witheridge’s body. The defence has now been told to once again compile a full list of the evidence it wants to retest, which will be submitted to the police forensics department, asking for it to be handed over to the Ministry of Justice Forensics Institute in Bangkok.

The trial adjourns tomorrow for almost a month. Andy Hall, the media spokesperson for the pro bono defence team, said: “I don’t think the court fully understood the testing process before, so when the police said the original samples had been used up, it believed there was nothing left to test. But the testimony of today’s witness has made it clear there would be conserved DNA residue, which could prove crucial to the suspects’ defence.”

Not investigated

The senior police officer investigating the killing of Norfolk student Hannah Witheridge in Thailand said today that he had not investigated rumours that she had been involved in an argument with a Thai youth on the night of her death.

Read more: http://www.edp24.co.uk/news/crime/hannah_witheridge_murder_trial_defence_team_hope_to_re_test_crucial_forensic_evidence_1_4164482

"...While she could only speak for her own examination of the alleged murder weapon, some blood-spattered items of clothing, two cigarette butts and a condom found at the scene, she explained to the court that the same should be true for all the DNA samples gathered in the investigation."

....should be true...

From my understanding in many countries this would be stop down in 2 seconds by the defense.

her testimony has added absolutely nothing to these proceedings, why are we now going to have to revisit this session today with the people who are claimed to have actually done the lab work ?

The one good thing about this situation is the fact that the next person to examine the DNA (if it exists) is the generally highly respected uncorruptable Pornthip Rojanasunand

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pornthip_Rojanasunand

The generally highly respected and uncorruptable should read incorruptible.

Any way bring her on and we will see if she offers any value or if it is a time when she is at her corrupt time as generally she is incorruptible which means most of the time but not all of the time and if there is a time when she is not worthy of respect and corrupt then the chances of that time being at the KT murder trial are high.

We haven't forgotten who said the investigation was a great success have we.

Not attacking your post smed just my opinion on the mess of the DNA circus.

[Whyamiandwhatamidoinghere]

It is evident of the large scale corruption, lies, cover up and framing that is part of this case. These are bad enough. Now what is becoming even worse and alarming is for this charade to continue. If this country and its justice system has even a small amount of credibility, they will get of this save face sillyness and do the honourable thing. let the poor innocent guys go. give them some compensation for unlawful imprisonment and charging and get this corrupt filth of policemen behind bars where they belong.

If you want to save future face you have to lose some. An admission of blunder and an apologies to the families represented by the prosecution and the defense and then the pm announcing the replacement of the police senior and subordinate involved in this case and a promise of a crackdown on corruption in the courts and police. That would go right nice with my Krispy Kremes and beer.

[StealthEnergiser]

[Linky]

I've said many times if this is a case made of whole-cloth, with any kind of reasonable media access, the Prosecution will not be able to pull it off. Media access, at least so far, is greater than many on here have predicted.

Not to many media getting access to the small courtroom.

Reuters, BBC, SkyNEWS, and 2 freelancers (Mairs and Yuen) among maybe others are reporting from the Courthouse on the island whether from inside or not and none have had their work permits revoked.

Jonah Fisher (BBC) and Jonathon Samuels (Sky) are not there.

Read there twitter feeds

As long as one reporter is there and everyone else uses their reports to ensure a wide audience.

[StealthEnergiser]

[Emster23]

Prosecution will deliver "chain of custody" documents just as soon as they finish making them up. Even if they had them, would they have any connection to reality? When DNA was first "missing" and then "found" I pictured in my mind some sargent digging through some desk drawer, pushing aside staplers, clips, misc junk... oh here it is! and sticks finger in 35mm film can to pull out wad of dirty cotton.

And then there is always issue with the whole collection process. Did they change latex gloves with every sample?

I suggest ThaiVisa open a new forum: Theater of the Absurd. This whole mess is so off the charts, so strange, so bizarre... but I guess a person can get used to anything, given enough time.

[JLCrab]

I've said many times if this is a case made of whole-cloth, with any kind of reasonable media access, the Prosecution will not be able to pull it off. Media access, at least so far, is greater than many on here have predicted.

Not to many media getting access to the small courtroom.

Reuters, BBC, SkyNEWS, and 2 freelancers (Mairs and Yuen) among maybe others are reporting from the Courthouse on the island whether from inside or not and none have had their work permits revoked.

Jonah Fisher (BBC) and Jonathon Samuels (Sky) are not there.

Read there twitter feeds

Reuters is there maybe because their correspondent is not dependent upon translators: http://uk.mobile.reuters.com/article/article/idUKKCN0PY0A820150724

Also the NY Times is not there and has no original copy even though they have a full-time Bangkok Bureau. They have run a couple of AP and Reuters wire stories and I guess maybe -- as they can tell -- not enough people have clicked on the stories for them to cover the story themselves. Maybe the BBC and Sky NEWS are finding the same.

[DM07]

2 things strike me as strange:

a ) so many on here ask "Why didn't the police do this...or that..."? If these are not rhetorical questions- can you really not figure that one out?

They didn't look at the videos from the beach, they didn't find videos from inside the bar, they didn't follow the lead of an argument taking place, they didn't link a certain person to the running man...because they were not supposed to! Simple as that!

I hold any bet, that there ARE videos from inside that bar!

On the other hand: someone stated surprise, that only 100 of the 300 cameras on the island actually worked- if you have been staying in Thailand for some time, you should be surprised, that the number is not way, way lower!

b ) ...and that is funny on so may levels: the absence of soooooo many defenders of the force, with every ball this corrupt, useless b@$tards drop! Hillarious!

[Whyamiandwhatamidoinghere]

Defense must be very sure their clients are not guilty to want dna retested. If it comes back and matches the accused they are in trouble. But then again, defense does not have to show prosecution or the court the result of the test. They dont have to prove innocence, the prosecution must prove guilt.

In my humble view all they need to do is prove a break in the chain of custody to have the current dna tossed out.

But TIT so I suppose anything can happen in a Thai court.

In my humble view all they need to do is prove a break in the chain of custody to have the current dna tossed out.

One of the key things the defense is being refused access to is the chain of custody documentation.

I wonder why? Could it be it will show that the forensic personnel didn't collect and protect the DNA obtain and maybe didn't bag and tag? Or allowed the samples to be left unsupervised and unsecured to possible access by an unauthorized person or persons? Surely impossible... Right?

[loonodingle]

Very unlikely that a speedboat had left from the main pier, it is used by larger vessels; speedboats normally operate directly from the beach or from small piers at some resorts.

Irrelevant dont you think, the point is the cctv was not checked in a double murder case and to this day know body knows. We also know they were looking and checking local fishing boats but failed to check the pier cctv..............

No, I don't think it's irrelevant.

As I said the pier is normally used for larger vessels and it would be easy to check if any left during the relevant time.

Before things get even more twisted it should be pointed that this:

"The court in Koh Samui heard that the senior investigating police chief and his officers did not believe the killer would have taken that boat, which left an hour or so after the estimated time of death of the pair.

"We have the footage, but we never checked it," Police Colonel Cherdpong said."

Is conflating two things, one the footage from the pier and two the allegations that a speedboat left the island from somewhere else one hour after the murder. They way it has been edited it makes it look as if there is footage of that boat leaving from the pier that the police refused to examine.

Having said that the defense should ask for the footage from the pier and examine it to their full satisfaction.

How can you seriously defend the fact that the cctv was not looked at in a very high profile double murder when they had at the time no clue of who carried out the crimes. ALL cctv should have been checked

All depends what story you are trying to concoct doesn't it. Something's fit like 3 lads going in a supermarket or riding around with how many others that night? 100's maybe so lets release that cctv to show them about. As for cctv in the AC Bar the owner refused to hand it over.

Make of that what you will but I would say as that was the last place David and Hannah are seen alive it should be a major focal point of the investigation.

But Hey I am a Falang so what do I know

[Dogmatix]

That's right. Anything can happen in a Thai court and once its ruling has been issued, it is a criminal offence to criticise it. There are no juries and judges pass judgement and sentence by themselves. Thailand has a civil law system which means that judges do not have to take legal precedents into account but are free to interpret the law in their on way, which may differ substantially from rulings made in other similar cases, sometimes by the same judge. Defendants have no right to know the prosecution's case against them before they are forced to plead when they are usually presented with heavy threats about the consequences of not pleading guilty. When the case goes to trial the prosecution again has no obligation to provide the defence with proper details of its case. Judges are appointed and promoted by the Justice Ministry which means there is no concept of judicial independence at this level of criminal justice, although things may be better at the Supreme Court level. Judges are recruited straight from university, based on connections, not from the ranks of successful and already wealthy barristers, as in the UK. Thai judges earn tiny civil service salaries may end up rather wealthy. Young judges have to cut their teeth in the provinces for years until their connections and other notable attributes can ingratiate them enough with the powers that be to get a plumb court posting in Bangkok where all the big money cases are heard. The system is rotten by design.

And that is why any of the people commenting here that rather than "speculate" they trust the court system to reveal the truth of the case are completely misguided and misinformed (if they're not just being mendacious).

Sadly the victims' families hoped that the Thai court and justice system could be trusted to deliver justice for their loved ones. I imagine that the couple of days they spent in the court room left them thoroughly disillusioned. But that's the reality that ordinary Thais and foreign residents have to live with. The knowledge that one day they could become victims of crime or the police explains why posters are unwilling to sit idly by.

[glenmohr]

It is indeed a major worry for those of us who want to see justice for the unlucky accused to reflect on the fact that the highest political officer of Thailand may have reviewed the case already and decided that the 2 Burmese are guilty as charged. I also question as to the possibility of the great anti corruption crusade being now officially on holiday.

[StealthEnergiser]

Courtroom at Koh Tao Backpacker Murder Trial Hears of More Thai Police Blunders

Police admit that key CCTV cameras were not checked

MORE This Septic Isle: Backpackers, Bloodshed and the Secretive World of Koh Tao

Police investigating the murder of a pair of British backpackers on an idyllic Thai beach have revealed that they didn’t check key CCTV cameras — the latest troubling admission in a case deemed an acid test for Thailand’s justice system.

Burmese migrant workers Wai Phyo and Zaw Lin, both 22, are currently on trial for the murder of David Miller, 24, and the rape and murder of Hannah Witheridge, 23, on the Thai Gulf island of Koh Tao.

The tourists’ bodies were discovered on Sept. 15 last year by rocks on Koh Tao’s popular Sairee Beach.

http://time.com/3970699/thailand-koh-tao-murders-hannah-witheridge-david-miller-latest/

[bunglebag]

I don't think it's invalid to suggest that if the established by other means that no boats left during that time that reviewing that footage wouldn't be relevant to the investigation, or at least any more relevant than reviewing footage from any other part of the island.

But like I said before if they didn't give explanations on why that was the course they took they should.

Just to make sure I have understood correctly...

2 people gruesomely murdered.

A boat left the pier / beach 1 hour after the murders / bodies found. There is/was cctv of this (still in existance?)

If someone(s) told the police that no boat left the beach / pier near to the scene then they should just accept that and not bother confirming this information for themselves by viewing some readily available cctv footage?

I appreciate that was only one scenario you say could have taken place, but really whether it was that or ANY other scenario can you really say that is acceptable police investigating not to check cctv to validate this within hours of a double murder in the same vicinity?

Unless a better hypothetical reason can be put forward for not viewing it then I feel I must retract my recent earlier statement where I said I felt your posts were often valid and unbiased. I have to as I have no desire to even remotely endorse an opinion like that. It seems we're miles apart on what is acceptable / excusable after all.

No, you didn't understand correctly; nobody said there is CCTV of that boat leaving. They said they didn't review the CCTV from the pier and a boat left the island from somewhere else; they are two different things that are being conflated.

OK, this is getting a bit confusing (as usual) and I must beg to differ as to what was originally said. You say above that nobody said there was cctv of a boat leaving the beach but the original report (the one that sparked this little convo) contained the following:

"KOH SAMUI: Police failed to check CCTV images of a boat leaving a beach close to where two British backpackers were found murdered, a Thai court has heard."

Balo replied along the lines of 'OK let's see who was on the boat'

AleG replied along the lines of 'speedboats leave from beaches, not piers'.

But no pier was mentioned in this report so you were actually the first to mention a pier in this particular little subthread (possibly piers were mentioned elsewhere and that is why you mentioned a pier?)

I then initially replied mentioning that there was no mention of a pier in this report, just a beach near to the bodies (Is Sairee beach the beach in question?)

Regardless of any other stories of boats or lack of them any cctv would still have been checked by any remotely decent police force. If no-one has looked at the cctv then no-one knows what might be on it?

[smedly]

Koh Tao police quizzed on why they didn’t look into rumoured bar dispute

Sarah Yuen in Thailand

In testimony in court today, Lieutenant Colonel Kewalee Chanpan, from the forensic division of the Royal Thai Police, said that while the swabs used to obtain the DNA samples from the scene, and the victims’ and suspects’ bodies, would have been destroyed in the testing process, traces of the the DNA extracted from those swabs would still be available for retesting.

The police lieutenant colonel explained that trace DNA material is generally conserved for at least one to two years by the police forensics department.

While she could only speak for her own examination of the alleged murder weapon, some blood-spattered items of clothing, two cigarette butts and a condom found at the scene, she explained to the court that the same should be true for all the DNA samples gathered in the investigation. The officials responsible for the testing of DNA samples taken from the bodies of Ms Witheridge, 23, and 24 year-old David Miller, will appear in court tomorrow. The defence team had already been told by the Royal Thai Police that it could re-examine a few items, including the alleged murder weapon which is a garden hoe. But in court today, based on the new testimony, the defence team was given fresh hope that the more crucial evidence could also be re-examined.

The prosecution claims DNA from the two Burmese suspects, Zaw Lin and Win Zaw Htun, both aged 22, was found on or in Ms Witheridge’s body. The defence has now been told to once again compile a full list of the evidence it wants to retest, which will be submitted to the police forensics department, asking for it to be handed over to the Ministry of Justice Forensics Institute in Bangkok.

The trial adjourns tomorrow for almost a month. Andy Hall, the media spokesperson for the pro bono defence team, said: “I don’t think the court fully understood the testing process before, so when the police said the original samples had been used up, it believed there was nothing left to test. But the testimony of today’s witness has made it clear there would be conserved DNA residue, which could prove crucial to the suspects’ defence.”

Not investigated

The senior police officer investigating the killing of Norfolk student Hannah Witheridge in Thailand said today that he had not investigated rumours that she had been involved in an argument with a Thai youth on the night of her death.

Read more: http://www.edp24.co.uk/news/crime/hannah_witheridge_murder_trial_defence_team_hope_to_re_test_crucial_forensic_evidence_1_4164482

"...While she could only speak for her own examination of the alleged murder weapon, some blood-spattered items of clothing, two cigarette butts and a condom found at the scene, she explained to the court that the same should be true for all the DNA samples gathered in the investigation."

....should be true...

From my understanding in many countries this would be stop down in 2 seconds by the defense.

her testimony has added absolutely nothing to these proceedings, why are we now going to have to revisit this session today with the people who are claimed to have actually done the lab work ?

The one good thing about this situation is the fact that the next person to examine the DNA (if it exists) is the generally highly respected uncorruptable Pornthip Rojanasunand

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pornthip_Rojanasunand

Yes it will be interesting to see what she finds out.

But one question that I keep asking myself regarding their visit at the AC... what did Hannah's friend have to say? From what I understood David went there alone but Hannah came in with her friends. Can't they testify and tell if there was or was not a bar dispute? From what we read in the media the friends haven't made any comment... that's weird...

They may have provided testimony to the defence and have been asked to stay silent until it is revealed in court

and this is just a guess as I have never been there, does the AC bar have shutters on the front that are possibly closed while the bar remains open into the small hours and people enter and leave via the rear door

[Lovekorat]

I read people imploring the UK government to get involved.

Beyond asking the question there is little they can do.

Most countries, UK included, have access arrangements but can only assist in case of emergencies, death, serious illness, war etc.

It is not feasible or practical to allow foreign police forces to come and investigate a crime in another country.

If that were the case then policing would descend into farce every time a foreign national was killed with other police forces charging all over the place.

You can show interest. Ask questions. But that's about it.

And that has to be right.

The Foreign office will tell you this. They cannot get involved in solving crime outside of the UK unless specifically asked, just to attempt to alleviate suffering of relatives where they can.

Now, the Thai police do seem to have made a mess of this in so many ways and I am sure there are those who are staring in disbelief but there's not a lot the UK can do.

The UK police were 'allowed' to come here of course but maybe only allowed to see what they were shown which might have been not much.

However we have heard very little since.

Have they got something?

We don't know but whilst the UK police themselves have not in some cases been shown to be perfect they are very good at spotting inconsistencies and bad practice.

My guess is they have got something. The defence team have been informed and advised and we are waiting for the 'hammer to fall' at the appropriate time.

Interesting things are now being dragged out. Didn't check CCTV at the pier, DNA doubts, no investigation of the rumoured altercation at the bar, clothing on people seen rip inning away onCCTV not matching the Burmese boys may all be questions being suggested by the UK police based just in observation of how the Thai police conducted the investigation.

I say again 'may'.

Just in passing about the rumoured altercation. Wasn't there CCTV footage of Hannah leaving the bar pursued by what looked like an irate guy who seemed to be shouting and pointing at her?

Maybe there was a problem in the bar, a rebuttal of an unwelcome suggestion or advance and she stormed out?

I can't believe her friends or David's friends have not been interviewed by UK police and if so, well.

I still think this will end up with the case being thrown out on a technicality.

Maybe corrupt and unsubstantiated evidence,

The court is clear. The Thai police let off the hook. The boys freed. Then it can all just go away.

No 'loss of face' for anyone.

The aftermath.....

Hannah and David's families have no closure. The bar is still open. There are still murderers on the loose to do it again, those that have covered it all up free to just carry on and the police allowed to get ready to pursue their next 'investigation'.

I think this has reached the stage where there can be no satisfactory outcome unless the boys are found unequivocally guilty using verifiable evidence.

Somehow that looks unlikely.

My scenario..

Someone of 'some local influence' tries to pick her up in the bar.

She refuses and leaves.

His mates laugh at him and he rounds up friends to go after her.

They find her on the beach and attack her.

David, looking for her, hears a girl in trouble and goes to help.

A couple hang on to her while others, probably at least 3 go after him and kill him, then return to Hannah.

That makes at least 4-5 involved. Not just 2.

The principle agitators hop a boat and get out if it.

The rest, Sorry, don't know anything. Maybe it was those Burmese guys on the beach.

There are people who know though aren't there.

Just a thought.

[stephenterry]

I spent 2 weeks on Koh Tao and Phangan with my Thai wife, returned a few days ago. Local people on Phangan told us a lot (less so on Koh Tao but still), but this trial is a joke, apparantly everybody knows who did it, cost his father, a local village head or something, a lot of bribe money (at least 30 million baht, going to the highest levels)

The real culprit will never be jailed.

Koh Tao is all mafia (or how one would like to call it), this is an ugly case but other things happened there. Small island, almost no police. Must have been nice once but now overdeloped, expensive, full of scams.

Phangan is nicer.

The real culprit will never be jailed.

I'm still seeing the cup as half full regards this. There is always the chance the families of the victims will conduct private investigation and by God I'm sure there are plenty of people who are prepared to financially support them if they do so.

So where's the evidence? Sorry, this original post is speculation unless backed by Thai witnesses.

[Oziex1]

If this was my home country the case would have been tossed out by the judge already. Just like that.

I'm wondering if there's ever a time in Thailand where a judge sees that the prosecution can't prove its case "beyond a (any) reasonable doubt" and dismisses the case out of hand. If that happens the accused can't be charged or tried again. It's up to the prosecution to prove its case and never up to the defendant to prove his innocence.

This worries me about Thailand as much as anything. Is there any justice for foreigners which these boys are? We'll see.

i Think you mean it would never have gone to court in this condition.

In our countries we know there are the top Government legal council known as The Attorney General in Australia not sure what the Brits and Americans call him. The job of his dept is to determine if the State or Crown can win a case in court based on the evidence presented by the investigating police without a strong case it wont make it to court and the investigation continues.

[Dogmatix]

I spent 2 weeks on Koh Tao and Phangan with my Thai wife, returned a few days ago. Local people on Phangan told us a lot (less so on Koh Tao but still), but this trial is a joke, apparantly everybody knows who did it, cost his father, a local village head or something, a lot of bribe money (at least 30 million baht, going to the highest levels)

The real culprit will never be jailed.

Koh Tao is all mafia (or how one would like to call it), this is an ugly case but other things happened there. Small island, almost no police. Must have been nice once but now overdeloped, expensive, full of scams.

Phangan is nicer.

30 mil would seem a bargain to keep one's boy off the gurney, specially, if it really had to go up to the highest levels with a lot of hands outstretched as it went up the pipe. If this is true (and I am not asserting that it is), I would think there would be many trips back to the well to keep things up-to-date and ship shape, particluarly if the 2B go all the way up to the Supreme Court.