Koh Tao: Trial opens for 2 accused of killing British tourists

[BritTim]

I read people imploring the UK government to get involved.

Beyond asking the question there is little they can do.

Most countries, UK included, have access arrangements but can only assist in case of emergencies, death, serious illness, war etc.

It is not feasible or practical to allow foreign police forces to come and investigate a crime in another country.

If that were the case then policing would descend into farce every time a foreign national was killed with other police forces charging all over the place.

You can show interest. Ask questions. But that's about it.

And that has to be right.

The Foreign office will tell you this. They cannot get involved in solving crime outside of the UK unless specifically asked, just to attempt to alleviate suffering of relatives where they can.

Now, the Thai police do seem to have made a mess of this in so many ways and I am sure there are those who are staring in disbelief but there's not a lot the UK can do.

The UK police were 'allowed' to come here of course but maybe only allowed to see what they were shown which might have been not much.

However we have heard very little since.

Have they got something?

We don't know but whilst the UK police themselves have not in some cases been shown to be perfect they are very good at spotting inconsistencies and bad practice.

My guess is they have got something. The defence team have been informed and advised and we are waiting for the 'hammer to fall' at the appropriate time.

Interesting things are now being dragged out. Didn't check CCTV at the pier, DNA doubts, no investigation of the rumoured altercation at the bar, clothing on people seen rip inning away onCCTV not matching the Burmese boys may all be questions being suggested by the UK police based just in observation of how the Thai police conducted the investigation.

I say again 'may'.

Just in passing about the rumoured altercation. Wasn't there CCTV footage of Hannah leaving the bar pursued by what looked like an irate guy who seemed to be shouting and pointing at her?

Maybe there was a problem in the bar, a rebuttal of an unwelcome suggestion or advance and she stormed out?

I can't believe her friends or David's friends have not been interviewed by UK police and if so, well.

I still think this will end up with the case being thrown out on a technicality.

Maybe corrupt and unsubstantiated evidence,

The court is clear. The Thai police let off the hook. The boys freed. Then it can all just go away.

No 'loss of face' for anyone.

The aftermath.....

Hannah and David's families have no closure. The bar is still open. There are still murderers on the loose to do it again, those that have covered it all up free to just carry on and the police allowed to get ready to pursue their next 'investigation'.

I think this has reached the stage where there can be no satisfactory outcome unless the boys are found unequivocally guilty using verifiable evidence.

Somehow that looks unlikely.

My scenario..

Someone of 'some local influence' tries to pick her up in the bar.

She refuses and leaves.

His mates laugh at him and he rounds up friends to go after her.

They find her on the beach and attack her.

David, looking for her, hears a girl in trouble and goes to help.

A couple hang on to her while others, probably at least 3 go after him and kill him, then return to Hannah.

That makes at least 4-5 involved. Not just 2.

The principle agitators hop a boat and get out if it.

The rest, Sorry, don't know anything. Maybe it was those Burmese guys on the beach.

There are people who know though aren't there.

Just a thought.

Wasn't there CCTV footage of Hannah leaving the bar pursued by what looked like an irate guy who seemed to be shouting and pointing at her?

This would be interesting. I have not seen any such footage. The police reported September 20 that they had footage of a Western woman running down the street, but it was never shown, and is probably disposed of by now.

[Dogmatix]

"'The court said that lawyers are free to request all the DNA samples for independent DNA testing at anytime,' Nakhon told Reuters, adding that a forensic expert testified that DNA swabs from the crime scene had been duplicated in a laboratory, so samples were still available."

Would the pathologists have had the ability to duplicate DNA from swabs taken from the 2B and extrapolate them into the semen and saliva samples found in Hannah's body, I wonder, while eclipsing any unwanted DNA found there? Even if the swabs have been preserved properly, I am doubtful that the original semen and saliva samples could have survived intact enough to take fresh samples from them (something like a hair would be different but the police pathologists apparently failed to collect any of the rapists' pubic hairs for undisclosed reasons). I fear that Khunying Pornthip may only be have the DNA that was replicated by the police pathologists to test, if they ever give her anything at all.

[smedly]

Koh Tao murder trail: Lawyer claims police failed to check CCTV

The defence lawyer in the Koh Tao murder trial said police had not examined CCTV footage near where two Brits were killed in September.

BANGKOK: Thai police failed to check CCTV footage from the only pier on the island where a pair of British tourists were murdered last year, a lawyer for the two Myanmar nationals accused of the killings said Thursday (Jul 23).

Migrant workers Zaw Lin and Win Zaw Tun are on trial for the murder of 24-year-old David Miller and the rape and murder of Hannah Witheridge, 23, on southern Koh Tao island in September.

Both men have pleaded not guilty and face the death penalty if convicted over a case which has tarnished Thailand's reputation as a tourist paradise and seen the police accused of bungling the investigation.

Under cross-examination Thursday a senior investigating police officer, Colonel Cherdpong Chiewpreecha, told a Koh Samui court that CCTV footage from the pier had not been examined after the double murders.

The pier is close to the beach were the battered bodies of the British holidaymakers were found and is the main route to and from the resort island.

"I asked whether police checked CCTV footage. He (the witness) replied no and that police had collected the footage but investigators thought it wasn't relevant," defence lawyer Nakhon Chomphuchat told AFP after the morning session.

Read more: http://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/asiapacific/koh-tao-murder-trail/2003156.html (AFP)

Did not look at it but knew it was not relevant. WOW!. The boys in brown are really good aren't they.

"I asked whether police checked CCTV footage. He (the witness) replied no and that police had collected the footage but investigators thought it wasn't relevant," defence lawyer Nakhon Chomphuchat told AFP after the morning session.

Is this another piece of evidence that is no longer available - anyone see a distinct pattern forming here, all the areas that might yield clues from cctv - and if you join up the dots

AC Bar - the last place the victims were seen alive

The Peir - possible exit rout for those fleeing the Island

All footage after 2pm (except for running man) that might reveal movements of certain people has never been shown

As for "running man" - remember that this cctv footage was released by the original cop (who was suddenly transferred) that suspected Mon and NS which also connected the crime to AC bar, I believe we would never have seen this footage if the replacement police team had been in control from the start (IMO)

[Whyamiandwhatamidoinghere]

https://twitter.com/Atomicalandy/status/624438232256634880'>

Amazing Thailand. Subpar testing facilities but out of this world turnaround time. She must have been thinking she was making a youtube video.. " And through the miracle of time"

[bamukloy]

If this was my home country the case would have been tossed out by the judge already. Just like that.

I'm wondering if there's ever a time in Thailand where a judge sees that the prosecution can't prove its case "beyond a (any) reasonable doubt" and dismisses the case out of hand. If that happens the accused can't be charged or tried again. It's up to the prosecution to prove its case and never up to the defendant to prove his innocence.

This worries me about Thailand as much as anything. Is there any justice for foreigners which these boys are? We'll see.

One thing that a lot of expats are aware of but others may well not be, so bears repeating or saying, is that in general in Asian countries the "justice" system is very heavily weighted towards prosecution. Even in more westernised and modernised Japan something like 99% of trials end in conviction, which is freaking scary if you think about it.

There's basically no concept of "innocent until proven guilty," or of reasonable doubt; getting the attention of the authorities, never mind being arrested or jailed, or worse ending up in the situation these two guys are, carries a stigma of guilt beyond what Westerners would, for the most part, ever experience back home.

This is one reason why in any Asian country I've spent some time the citizens make every effort to have zero contact with the police--things can easily go south if you do.

I guess those judges go by the reasoning "where theres smoke..."

when the accused ends up in their courthouse

and after some mud is thrown by the BiB, some most certainly will stick.

The best advice is to keep away from tourist areas where its known that undesirables hang out and that meaning undesirables of all nations.

Nearby is usually drugs and all sorts of troubles and temptations that lay in wait for those who consider themselves 'gangsters' (or what id call whank k ers)

Sad that the life of 2 innocents has now ticked off yet another no-go location in Thailand.

To demonize the whole country and its people, or for those living here long term, packing up and going over this is stupid in the extreme.

there is no country on Earth that hasnt had terrible serial killings.

Take Australia and the backpacker murders for instance.

Yes, we all know the justice system in Thailand is questionable..so stay away from it!

Its not hard, ive met hundreds over the years here,who have had zero trouble and report nothing but contact with good natured Thais.

Some on these forums like to label the 40+ expats as sexpats,outcasts and loosers etc but most have made it to that age by not inviting trouble in Thailand.

Not blaiming the victims, as they certainly didnt deserve what happened but im sure they'd want this terrible occurance to prevent others from going down the same path

Edited July 24, 2015 by bamukloy

[Dogmatix]

Koh Tao murder trail: Lawyer claims police failed to check CCTV

The defence lawyer in the Koh Tao murder trial said police had not examined CCTV footage near where two Brits were killed in September.

BANGKOK: Thai police failed to check CCTV footage from the only pier on the island where a pair of British tourists were murdered last year, a lawyer for the two Myanmar nationals accused of the killings said Thursday (Jul 23).

Migrant workers Zaw Lin and Win Zaw Tun are on trial for the murder of 24-year-old David Miller and the rape and murder of Hannah Witheridge, 23, on southern Koh Tao island in September.

Both men have pleaded not guilty and face the death penalty if convicted over a case which has tarnished Thailand's reputation as a tourist paradise and seen the police accused of bungling the investigation.

Under cross-examination Thursday a senior investigating police officer, Colonel Cherdpong Chiewpreecha, told a Koh Samui court that CCTV footage from the pier had not been examined after the double murders.

The pier is close to the beach were the battered bodies of the British holidaymakers were found and is the main route to and from the resort island.

"I asked whether police checked CCTV footage. He (the witness) replied no and that police had collected the footage but investigators thought it wasn't relevant," defence lawyer Nakhon Chomphuchat told AFP after the morning session.

Read more: http://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/asiapacific/koh-tao-murder-trail/2003156.html (AFP)

Did not look at it but knew it was not relevant. WOW!. The boys in brown are really good aren't they.

"I asked whether police checked CCTV footage. He (the witness) replied no and that police had collected the footage but investigators thought it wasn't relevant," defence lawyer Nakhon Chomphuchat told AFP after the morning session.

Is this another piece of evidence that is no longer available - anyone see a distinct pattern forming here, all the areas that might yield clues from cctv - and if you join up the dots

AC Bar - the last place the victims were seen alive

The Peir - possible exit rout for those fleeing the Island

All footage after 2pm (except for running man) that might reveal movements of certain people has never been shown

As for "running man" - remember that this cctv footage was released by the original cop (who was suddenly transferred) that suspected Mon and NS which also connected the crime to AC bar, I believe we would never have seen this footage if the replacement police team had been in control from the start (IMO)

I think you are right. The police and prosecution are stuck with the 'running man' clip because Panya allowed it to be leaked in support of his theory that it depicted either Mon or NS. I am not sure which. So they have to claim it was one of the 2B, even if it doesn't look like either of them, as there is no other plausible explanation that supports their case. They assume nothing can be proved conclusively either way on the identity of the 'running man' and rely on the trump card of the DNA evidence for the conviction.

[sambum]

The AC bar was the last place they were seen alive. Do the police not think it would be wise to investigate what went on during their time there? What about the rumor of an argument in the bar, is this not relevant? We know they have the cctv of everybody that entered from the main entrance, did they not try to track down the punters and interview them for possible leads?. It seems illogical that they can say the murders weren't pre meditated when they don't even know the scenario of the victims last point of contact. The polices handling of this case has been incompetent at best and dishonest at worst. I'm pretty sure heads are going to role, serious lose of face for the RTP, no wonder there is very little in the that press.One thing I hope comes from this case is there more oversight in future cases when it comes to dealing with the police and people are more voracious when dealing with them.

Like. There is a possibility Hannah could have been raped at the AC bar. There was talk months ago about Hannah not taking her phone to the beach with her (it seems to have been left with one of her friends). She has been reported to have entered the bar around an hour before David did. Anything could have happened in that bar eg - she went to the loo alone and got attacked somewhere in the building. But wouldn't the friends be concerned at her absence? There will no doubt be some pertinent information on the phones of the friends of that morning. There seems to have been nothing said about the purse she also had with her which was on the table in the photo in Choppers bar. What happened to this I wonder? The fact that the RTP are not going to provide any evidence to show that Hannah and David left the bar together leads me to speculate that they didn't which brings me back to the assumption that David went looking for her. I can't believe that none of their friends would not do everything they can to get justice for them. Hopefully they are doing everything they can and it's just that we do not know about it yet.

Yes, the silence from their friends is deafening. Possibly, they, (or one or two of them), have made statements already, but the defence team have decided to "say nowt" just yet, and see how many more holes the persecution prosecution and RTP can dig themselves into - they've just dug another one:-

KOH SAMUI: Police failed to check CCTV images of a boat leaving a beach close to where two British backpackers were found murdered, a Thai court has heard.

There were gasps in the courtroom as Police Colonel Cherdpong Chiewpreecha revealed a series of apparent blunders in the investigation into the deaths of David Miller, 24, and Hannah Witheridge, 23, on the island of Koh Tao.

"We have the footage, but we never checked it," Police Colonel Cherdpong said.

"Apparent" blunders? Yeah, right! I have honestly lost count of the apparent blunders in this "perfect" case, but I am pretty sure there will be more to come!

[smedly]

The AC bar was the last place they were seen alive. Do the police not think it would be wise to investigate what went on during their time there? What about the rumor of an argument in the bar, is this not relevant? We know they have the cctv of everybody that entered from the main entrance, did they not try to track down the punters and interview them for possible leads?. It seems illogical that they can say the murders weren't pre meditated when they don't even know the scenario of the victims last point of contact. The polices handling of this case has been incompetent at best and dishonest at worst. I'm pretty sure heads are going to role, serious lose of face for the RTP, no wonder there is very little in the that press.One thing I hope comes from this case is there more oversight in future cases when it comes to dealing with the police and people are more voracious when dealing with them.

Like. There is a possibility Hannah could have been raped at the AC bar. There was talk months ago about Hannah not taking her phone to the beach with her (it seems to have been left with one of her friends). She has been reported to have entered the bar around an hour before David did. Anything could have happened in that bar eg - she went to the loo alone and got attacked somewhere in the building. But wouldn't the friends be concerned at her absence? There will no doubt be some pertinent information on the phones of the friends of that morning. There seems to have been nothing said about the purse she also had with her which was on the table in the photo in Choppers bar. What happened to this I wonder? The fact that the RTP are not going to provide any evidence to show that Hannah and David left the bar together leads me to speculate that they didn't which brings me back to the assumption that David went looking for her. I can't believe that none of their friends would not do everything they can to get justice for them. Hopefully they are doing everything they can and it's just that we do not know about it yet.

there are many permutations - David could have been assaulted in the bar and carried to the sea and drowned, Hannah could have been raped in the bar then also carried to the beach and battered to a pulp then set up to look like it happened on the beach - anything is possible, but unless you have a police team that are actually making an attempt to find the animal thugs that did this and not cover up critical evidence, divert the investigation away from certain parties, may DNA samples unavailable for scrutiny then it is impossible to get to the truth

and may I also add that as far as DNA is concerned - the samples taken from Hannah would have been the largest of all and would have been the most likely not have been exhausted.

[BritTim]

"'The court said that lawyers are free to request all the DNA samples for independent DNA testing at anytime,' Nakhon told Reuters, adding that a forensic expert testified that DNA swabs from the crime scene had been duplicated in a laboratory, so samples were still available."

Would the pathologists have had the ability to duplicate DNA from swabs taken from the 2B and extrapolate them into the semen and saliva samples found in Hannah's body, I wonder, while eclipsing any unwanted DNA found there? Even if the swabs have been preserved properly, I am doubtful that the original semen and saliva samples could have survived intact enough to take fresh samples from them (something like a hair would be different but the police pathologists apparently failed to collect any of the rapists' pubic hairs for undisclosed reasons). I fear that Khunying Pornthip may only be have the DNA that was replicated by the police pathologists to test, if they ever give her anything at all.

Although time consuming, amplification techniques like nested PCR can enable DNA to be extracted from minuscule residues. Unless the swabs have been contaminated, I would expect meaningful testing to be possible.

[Blackfox]

I read people imploring the UK government to get involved.

Beyond asking the question there is little they can do.

Most countries, UK included, have access arrangements but can only assist in case of emergencies, death, serious illness, war etc.

It is not feasible or practical to allow foreign police forces to come and investigate a crime in another country.

If that were the case then policing would descend into farce every time a foreign national was killed with other police forces charging all over the place.

You can show interest. Ask questions. But that's about it.

And that has to be right.

The Foreign office will tell you this. They cannot get involved in solving crime outside of the UK unless specifically asked, just to attempt to alleviate suffering of relatives where they can.

Now, the Thai police do seem to have made a mess of this in so many ways and I am sure there are those who are staring in disbelief but there's not a lot the UK can do.

The UK police were 'allowed' to come here of course but maybe only allowed to see what they were shown which might have been not much.

However we have heard very little since.

Have they got something?

We don't know but whilst the UK police themselves have not in some cases been shown to be perfect they are very good at spotting inconsistencies and bad practice.

My guess is they have got something. The defence team have been informed and advised and we are waiting for the 'hammer to fall' at the appropriate time.

Interesting things are now being dragged out. Didn't check CCTV at the pier, DNA doubts, no investigation of the rumoured altercation at the bar, clothing on people seen rip inning away onCCTV not matching the Burmese boys may all be questions being suggested by the UK police based just in observation of how the Thai police conducted the investigation.

I say again 'may'.

Just in passing about the rumoured altercation. Wasn't there CCTV footage of Hannah leaving the bar pursued by what looked like an irate guy who seemed to be shouting and pointing at her?

Maybe there was a problem in the bar, a rebuttal of an unwelcome suggestion or advance and she stormed out?

I can't believe her friends or David's friends have not been interviewed by UK police and if so, well.

I still think this will end up with the case being thrown out on a technicality.

Maybe corrupt and unsubstantiated evidence,

The court is clear. The Thai police let off the hook. The boys freed. Then it can all just go away.

No 'loss of face' for anyone.

The aftermath.....

Hannah and David's families have no closure. The bar is still open. There are still murderers on the loose to do it again, those that have covered it all up free to just carry on and the police allowed to get ready to pursue their next 'investigation'.

I think this has reached the stage where there can be no satisfactory outcome unless the boys are found unequivocally guilty using verifiable evidence.

Somehow that looks unlikely.

My scenario..

Someone of 'some local influence' tries to pick her up in the bar.

She refuses and leaves.

His mates laugh at him and he rounds up friends to go after her.

They find her on the beach and attack her.

David, looking for her, hears a girl in trouble and goes to help.

A couple hang on to her while others, probably at least 3 go after him and kill him, then return to Hannah.

That makes at least 4-5 involved. Not just 2.

The principle agitators hop a boat and get out if it.

The rest, Sorry, don't know anything. Maybe it was those Burmese guys on the beach.

There are people who know though aren't there.

Just a thought.

Many, many pages back I, as with others acknowledged there is no way the UK government can have direct involvement; influence yes.

I'm thinking a covert op along the lines of retaliation against the perpetrators of the Munich 1972 Massacre.

I'm well aware this is far fetched but......I've gotta be honest, I'm <deleted> seething on the inside which gives rise to my somewhat angered and venomous thoughts.

[loonodingle]

Reuters, BBC, SkyNEWS, and 2 freelancers (Mairs and Yuen) among maybe others are reporting from the Courthouse on the island whether from inside or not and none have had their work permits revoked.

Jonah Fisher (BBC) and Jonathon Samuels (Sky) are not there.

Read there twitter feeds

Reuters is there maybe because their correspondent is not dependent upon translators: http://uk.mobile.reuters.com/article/article/idUKKCN0PY0A820150724

Also the NY Times is not there and has no original copy even though they have a full-time Bangkok Bureau. They have run a couple of AP and Reuters wire stories and I guess maybe -- as they can tell -- not enough people have clicked on the stories for them to cover the story themselves. Maybe the BBC and Sky NEWS are finding the same.

Could be the case Crabby.

However I was a bit disappointed Jonathon Samuels didn't show up after his Translator was warned off. On the face off it you could suggest he has seen his backside and didn't want to come back.

He was there from the initial murder interviewing that Scots Laddy Sean Mcanna who was tracked down to Milan by the newspapers and was extremely angry at having his location disclosed.. not sure why though as his pictures are everywhere on the internet. Sometimes he is Sean Dilupo as well. just stumbled across a poignant moment he was involved in. https://www.facebook.com/PScocktailbeer/photos/pb.520529774704117.-2207520000.1437731851./754952387928520/?type=3&theater

Bet he didn't think he would see that day when he was being chased around Koh Tao under the threat of death.

Shame he couldnt turn out for the trial for his friend though. That's the friend he claimed he admired so much he was always the man he wanted to be.

Still he has a habit of not turning up as well. He allegedly didn't turn up the night he was supposed to be out with David

[eliotness]

I'm still seeing the cup as half full regards this. There is always the chance the families of the victims will conduct private investigation and by God I'm sure there are plenty of people who are prepared to financially support them if they do so.[/size]

I will mate, as an Aussie of British stock.

If this case goes sour, the UK government have a duty to intervene, if not directly, then covertly.....they've lost two young souls.

Ooooh I would like to think so, in fact I would be so proud if they would, but I think British governments no longer have any balls. Love her or hate her, up to you, but Maggie Thatcher had more balls than any British PM since Churchill and after her all we have had is a load of wimps. So it is with the deepest of regret that I would count on the British Government for sweet f all.

[Whyamiandwhatamidoinghere]

"We have the footage, but we never checked it," Police Colonel Cherdpong said.

We'll find that 'have' will actually be 'had'.

Thai language is not precise when using verb tenses. Plus, in order to maintain their despicable cover-up, RTP cannot allow the beach/pier footage, as well as hundreds of hours of other pertinent footage, to be seen by the defense or us little people.

100% wrong. Just because Pasa Thai doesn't conjugate verbs doesn't mean it's imprecise to past, present or future.

Past = dai

Present = gamlang

Future = yang

Thus, dai mee = had (past tense)

And mee= have (present tense)

The "communication issues" isn't the translation, it's the source 555

Trouble is that, in spoken speech, Thais have a nasty habit of omitting certain words when the speaker thinks they are unnecessary in context. Words representing tenses like kamlang and dai are classic examples.

Yeah it's helps if you know thai written and spoken. A lot of words are omitted and Thai to English or vice-versa is never precise. If you are in a relationship you know well. Just Jerking your own noodle and self-study tapes is for tourists.

[bunglebag]

The only way this whole sorry situation could look more like a pantomime would be introducing Christopher Biggins as a surprise witness.

He would be the most reliable witness so far

[loonodingle]

I read people imploring the UK government to get involved.

Beyond asking the question there is little they can do.

Most countries, UK included, have access arrangements but can only assist in case of emergencies, death, serious illness, war etc.

It is not feasible or practical to allow foreign police forces to come and investigate a crime in another country.

If that were the case then policing would descend into farce every time a foreign national was killed with other police forces charging all over the place.

You can show interest. Ask questions. But that's about it.

And that has to be right.

The Foreign office will tell you this. They cannot get involved in solving crime outside of the UK unless specifically asked, just to attempt to alleviate suffering of relatives where they can.

Now, the Thai police do seem to have made a mess of this in so many ways and I am sure there are those who are staring in disbelief but there's not a lot the UK can do.

The UK police were 'allowed' to come here of course but maybe only allowed to see what they were shown which might have been not much.

However we have heard very little since.

Have they got something?

We don't know but whilst the UK police themselves have not in some cases been shown to be perfect they are very good at spotting inconsistencies and bad practice.

My guess is they have got something. The defence team have been informed and advised and we are waiting for the 'hammer to fall' at the appropriate time.

Interesting things are now being dragged out. Didn't check CCTV at the pier, DNA doubts, no investigation of the rumoured altercation at the bar, clothing on people seen rip inning away onCCTV not matching the Burmese boys may all be questions being suggested by the UK police based just in observation of how the Thai police conducted the investigation.

I say again 'may'.

Just in passing about the rumoured altercation. Wasn't there CCTV footage of Hannah leaving the bar pursued by what looked like an irate guy who seemed to be shouting and pointing at her?

Maybe there was a problem in the bar, a rebuttal of an unwelcome suggestion or advance and she stormed out?

I can't believe her friends or David's friends have not been interviewed by UK police and if so, well.

I still think this will end up with the case being thrown out on a technicality.

Maybe corrupt and unsubstantiated evidence,

The court is clear. The Thai police let off the hook. The boys freed. Then it can all just go away.

No 'loss of face' for anyone.

The aftermath.....

Hannah and David's families have no closure. The bar is still open. There are still murderers on the loose to do it again, those that have covered it all up free to just carry on and the police allowed to get ready to pursue their next 'investigation'.

I think this has reached the stage where there can be no satisfactory outcome unless the boys are found unequivocally guilty using verifiable evidence.

Somehow that looks unlikely.

My scenario..

Someone of 'some local influence' tries to pick her up in the bar.

She refuses and leaves.

His mates laugh at him and he rounds up friends to go after her.

They find her on the beach and attack her.

David, looking for her, hears a girl in trouble and goes to help.

A couple hang on to her while others, probably at least 3 go after him and kill him, then return to Hannah.

That makes at least 4-5 involved. Not just 2.

The principle agitators hop a boat and get out if it.

The rest, Sorry, don't know anything. Maybe it was those Burmese guys on the beach.

There are people who know though aren't there.

Just a thought.

This is how it should work.

Minister for the Far East and South East Asia Hugo Swire should summons the Thai Chargé d’Affaires to the UK, Mr. Nadhavathna Krishnamra, to the Foreign and Commonwealth Office.

As he done last year.

Then he tells him that he will increase the travel alert status of Thailand to Do Not Travel. This kicks in some problems with travel insurance etc and people don't go.

When they get this issue resolved then he resets the status after being confident that crime and justice is a priority of the leaders.

This a refresher for you all if you have forgotten..

http://asiancorrespondent.com/127396/prayuth-british-have-no-problem-with-thai-investigation-into-death-of-the-2-tourists/

[xylophone]

I was particularly puzzled today to see a report from the Police (at this trial) stating that Mr Miller had been struck with a single blow to the back of the head and left to drown in shallow surf!!!!!!!

However I distinctly remember seeing photographs of the poor fellow's head showing a number of wounds/puncture marks on the back of his head, which seem no way conducive to supporting the statement above?

[Whyamiandwhatamidoinghere]

what I don't get is the sheer lack of cctv footage from 2am onwards, the only thing shown was the running man which in my view would never have been released if it wasn't for the original transferred cop

surely there must be footage of B3 going to the shop for more beer before heading off to see his GF

I will even lay money on it that there is footage of B1 and B2 leaving the beach area at about 3am

although granted having never been there I don't know the layout of the place

anyone with google earth that knows the layout could you perhaps point out a few landmarks and the location of AC bar and the murder area

https://www.google.co.th/maps/@10.0891645,99.8258572,159m/data=!3m1!1e3

Muang Muang went back to their own room to get, IIRC, a bottle of wine back to the beach, he didn't go to a store.

Personally I find it hard to believe that three men drinking three bottles of beer and one bottle of wine among them would end up too drunk to remember anything.

My Thai father in law is unconscious after less than half a can of Leo.

Yes my wife too....half o bottle of Smirnoff ice and she is done for the night...

So he really doesn't know the capabilities of Thai drinkers yet.

1 can = guidiness

1.5 cans = paranoid stares

2 cans and above = rocky Balboa

3 to 5 cans usually end in serious altercations.

Most of my Thai friends are ten years younger from different social classes. But what is the same is toast and finish. That goes on until they drunk. I ask one middle class Thai friend why do you get drunk? He responded "to forget my problems" He also said "if he drinks with his boss or someone his senior he must follow. This is our culture"

[apetley]

I was particularly puzzled today to see a report from the Police (at this trial) stating that Mr Miller had been struck with a single blow to the back of the head and left to drown in shallow surf!!!!!!!

However I distinctly remember seeing photographs of the poor fellow's head showing a number of wounds/puncture marks on the back of his head, which seem no way conducive to supporting the statement above?

You're not the only one. Even the RTP's Chief Forensic Examiner found several Injuries.

"Maj Gen Pornchai Suteerakune, Thailand’s chief police forensics officer, told reporters that in addition to the severe wounds found on Mr Miller’s head, the examination had found an injury on his hand, indicating that a struggle may have taken place, according to the Associated Press."

http://www.independent.co.uk/incoming/thailand-beach-murders-both-hannah-witheridge-and-david-miller-suffered-severe-head-wounds-9738170.html

[Oziex1]

I may be repeating myself but, they set out to protect their countries and their islands image and probably their criminal livelihood.

Given the headlines in the international press, any chance of protecting the image, whatever that may be has been a miserable failure.

[Nigeone]

I am not religious in any way, but I am praying our lost kids will end up looking down on us with a smile cos WE asked questions and got stuff moving..........Dee ma to 99% of you......The fighting spirit.......Dee ma..

Ditto transam.

Yes I'm often moved by comments on here from what are basically ordinary people who have felt the wrong doing in this case and trial. Respect to everyone fighting there corner to show up and keep pressure on for justice, what ever that is to be. I'm still hopeful that one of the UK Sunday papers will latch on to this big time as if they did it could really make a difference and hopefully change some of the terrible practices involving RTP and courts in Thailand. One can hope and pray.

[Basil B]

There should be a FCO travel warning...

Do not go to Thailand, If you do not get murdered you may be stitched up for murder...

Edited July 24, 2015 by Basil B

[Blackfox]

[

This is how it should work.

Minister for the Far East and South East Asia Hugo Swire should summons the Thai Chargé d’Affaires to the UK, Mr. Nadhavathna Krishnamra, to the Foreign and Commonwealth Office.

As he done last year.

Then he tells him that he will increase the travel alert status of Thailand to Do Not Travel. This kicks in some problems with travel insurance etc and people don't go.

When they get this issue resolved then he resets the status after being confident that crime and justice is a priority of the leaders.

This a refresher for you all if you have forgotten..

http://asiancorrespondent.com/127396/prayuth-british-have-no-problem-with-thai-investigation-into-death-of-the-2-tourists/

Loonodingle,

Can the Minister for the Far East and South East Asia, Hugo Swire, be petitioned by British citizens, families of the victims, and general public?

Is there a quantifiable measure or precedent that could effect this action should the outcome of the trial fail?

That's failing the two British souls.

[HansIsaan]

I thinks it's time the media contacts the PM for statement .

Saturday 11 October 2014

Thai PM defends investigation into Britons murder

Prayuth Chan-ocha says correct culprits have been caught, after Burmese president demands fair trial for suspects

"Nobody would dare catch the wrong person because this is a case of big international interest.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/oct/10/burma-fair-trial-thailand-backpacker-murders

On the other hand, giving the long corrupt record of the police, we come to expect the sacrificial scapegoat and a many have been offered up in Thailand. Most Thais I know just want this case to go away because it effects their face and pockets. I challenge you to find a Thai that you're not slapping meat to that is participating in the conversation of these murders and truly gives a rats ass about foreigners murdered, assaulted or are mysteriously found dead and accused of suicide.

I really live in the sticks (kalasin, in Isaan). But alltough Thai television does not give the trial much attention (apart from a little bit by ch3), everybody here talks about it and everybody assures me it was Nomsod & his friends who have done it....

[partington]

I wish the factual reporting on this case was better : information about the actual DNA evidence that has been presented doesn't seem to be reported anywhere. What was the explanation given for the rapidity of the DNA test by the police forensics witness?

As a matter of technical procedure , it isn't really possible to process internal rape kit DNA samples in a few hours. This is because in rape kit swabs the female victim's DNA is in nearly always in vast excess (99%) , and so any signal from the male(s) DNA will be swamped out.

There are two things that can be done to compensate for this. The first is to extract the DNA differentially- without going into it in huge detail, the samples are treated first with a reagent that removes female cells' DNA, leaving sperm cells intact. The DNA is then prepared from the remaining sperm and there is then little or no female DNA left to interfere. This procedure usually takes overnight, it can't usually be done in together with the actual profiling in just a few hours (unless huge technical advances have happened in the last 4 years), and no results are usually possible for the standard profile test if it isn't done.

The other way is to test the DNA for Y chromosome markers only. This means you do not have to do any special preparation other than isolate DNA from the swabs, which can be done in an hour or so. The profiling is done using kits that reveal Y chromosome markers. As only males have the Y chromosome, this means any signal is definitely from male DNA alone.

The disadvantage of this is that the DNA profile is much less discriminatory than the standard test- for a start all close male relatives will have the exact same profile- and secondly from values of the order of 10's of billions to one chance of misidentification for the standard kind of DNA profiling tests, the probability of misidentification for Y-profiling can sink to values between 1 in 340 to 1 in 100,000 (say) depending on the local population. I think this must have been the test that was done, but this isn't reported.

This kind of test opens doubt, as if there is a 1 in 340 or even 1 in 10, 000 chance of a random member of the population having the same profile as the accused you cannot say for sure that the crime scene DNA is from the accused. There is a big difference between being able to testify that the chance of a profile coming from a random person who is not the accused is 50 billion to one, and 1000 to one. The second simply isn't good enough to prove identity.

However the huge value of Y chromosome profiles is that they can instantly exclude suspects-if the accused don't have the same Y profile as the crime scene DNA it simply cannot be them.

Additionally, if the male DNA is a mix of more than one subject, even with the full non-Y DNA method (which couldn't have been done here-not enough time) this makes definite interpretation of all the markers difficult and can increase the probability of an incorrect ID, from billions to one to thousands to one if the mix is problematical. All identifications are given a probability in the report, based on the number of markers that could be unambiguously identified, and if the probability is low , evidentiary value is also low.

However this needs to be pointed out in court, because judges and policemen do not know this: so a DNA expert witness is essential.

[stephenterry]

I read people imploring the UK government to get involved.

Beyond asking the question there is little they can do.

Most countries, UK included, have access arrangements but can only assist in case of emergencies, death, serious illness, war etc.

It is not feasible or practical to allow foreign police forces to come and investigate a crime in another country.

If that were the case then policing would descend into farce every time a foreign national was killed with other police forces charging all over the place.

You can show interest. Ask questions. But that's about it.

And that has to be right.

The Foreign office will tell you this. They cannot get involved in solving crime outside of the UK unless specifically asked, just to attempt to alleviate suffering of relatives where they can.

Now, the Thai police do seem to have made a mess of this in so many ways and I am sure there are those who are staring in disbelief but there's not a lot the UK can do.

The UK police were 'allowed' to come here of course but maybe only allowed to see what they were shown which might have been not much.

However we have heard very little since.

Have they got something?

We don't know but whilst the UK police themselves have not in some cases been shown to be perfect they are very good at spotting inconsistencies and bad practice.

My guess is they have got something. The defence team have been informed and advised and we are waiting for the 'hammer to fall' at the appropriate time.

Interesting things are now being dragged out. Didn't check CCTV at the pier, DNA doubts, no investigation of the rumoured altercation at the bar, clothing on people seen rip inning away onCCTV not matching the Burmese boys may all be questions being suggested by the UK police based just in observation of how the Thai police conducted the investigation.

I say again 'may'.

Just in passing about the rumoured altercation. Wasn't there CCTV footage of Hannah leaving the bar pursued by what looked like an irate guy who seemed to be shouting and pointing at her?

Maybe there was a problem in the bar, a rebuttal of an unwelcome suggestion or advance and she stormed out?

I can't believe her friends or David's friends have not been interviewed by UK police and if so, well.

I still think this will end up with the case being thrown out on a technicality.

Maybe corrupt and unsubstantiated evidence,

The court is clear. The Thai police let off the hook. The boys freed. Then it can all just go away.

No 'loss of face' for anyone.

The aftermath.....

Hannah and David's families have no closure. The bar is still open. There are still murderers on the loose to do it again, those that have covered it all up free to just carry on and the police allowed to get ready to pursue their next 'investigation'.

I think this has reached the stage where there can be no satisfactory outcome unless the boys are found unequivocally guilty using verifiable evidence.

Somehow that looks unlikely.

My scenario..

Someone of 'some local influence' tries to pick her up in the bar.

She refuses and leaves.

His mates laugh at him and he rounds up friends to go after her.

They find her on the beach and attack her.

David, looking for her, hears a girl in trouble and goes to help.

A couple hang on to her while others, probably at least 3 go after him and kill him, then return to Hannah.

That makes at least 4-5 involved. Not just 2.

The principle agitators hop a boat and get out if it.

The rest, Sorry, don't know anything. Maybe it was those Burmese guys on the beach.

There are people who know though aren't there.

Just a thought.

This is how it should work.

Minister for the Far East and South East Asia Hugo Swire should summons the Thai Chargé d’Affaires to the UK, Mr. Nadhavathna Krishnamra, to the Foreign and Commonwealth Office.

As he done last year.

Then he tells him that he will increase the travel alert status of Thailand to Do Not Travel. This kicks in some problems with travel insurance etc and people don't go.

When they get this issue resolved then he resets the status after being confident that crime and justice is a priority of the leaders.

This a refresher for you all if you have forgotten..

http://asiancorrespondent.com/127396/prayuth-british-have-no-problem-with-thai-investigation-into-death-of-the-2-tourists/

worth repeating several times.

[bunglebag]

If I am honest I don't think NS (Headman's son, Nomsod) has anything to do with these disgusting crimes, maybe people connected to him did, its hard to argue some things dont point to that. I think if NS was complicit something undeniable would have surfaced.

Here are two (of many) things undeniable, which implicate Nomsod. One is specific, one is general:

>>> Running Man videos. The man shown is him.

>>> The fact that RTP and prosecution and, of course, the Headman's family and even the self-appointed PM are all trying desperately to deflect, hide, trash, discount any evidence which might point to him.

There may be other incriminating evidence, such as matching DNA (unless we're to take the word of chief cop Somyotha ha ha). .....but prosecution/RTP is saying DNA evidence doesn't exist, oh yes it does, oh no it's used up, Oh no it's not used up, some things have been lost, oh no nothing's been lost - meanwhile days/weeks/months go by, with no reliable reexamination of DNA. Note: even if DNA is allowed, Nomsod's won't be allowed (by the court) to be tested/compared to DNA found in/on Hannah. Mark my words.

The jury is out for me on the involvement of NS. The only thing I know for sure regarding him is that he was chatting to his facebook pals about it later on the 15th.

Is it possible that all this BS could be the result of the PM saying No Thai would do this? If it turned out to be a Thai would this be loss of face for the biggest man in Thailand? Twas a silly statement to make because Thais have done plenty of horrific crimes previously, even not dissimilar to this one.

It is surprising (or should I really say not suprising) that there is not better quality footage of the running man, maybe from some of the other working cameras such as those that captured the victims final movements that night. The build and certainly that peculiar arm movement are definitely similar.

So much rumour around all aspects of NS 'alibi' and right from the off on day one he was being heavily pointed to by many people. Why did his name come up so quickly if he wasn't there? Even his Father said initially that he had had to rush back to university didn't he before the story changed? The speedboat story came on day one too and based on what I can understand of yesterday's testimony it sounds like yes there was a speedboat leaving the beach shortly after the murders!

I'm surprised that nothing concrete has yet surfaced if he was on the island. AC bar withholding all cctv from inside is very iffy though. 2 main reasons I can think of are:

1. something happened re Hannah and/or David in there

2. NS would have been on the video

Could the police not have demanded this in Thailand? If so and if they didn't then that screams cover up (of something).

From what I understand a lot of bars/resorts have cctv pointing to the beach yet the police have not seen any footage from any of these (allegedly), is that correct?. Honestly it feels like a bunch of 5 year olds could have done a better job!

[bunglebag]

what I don't get is the sheer lack of cctv footage from 2am onwards, the only thing shown was the running man which in my view would never have been released if it wasn't for the original transferred cop

surely there must be footage of B3 going to the shop for more beer before heading off to see his GF

I will even lay money on it that there is footage of B1 and B2 leaving the beach area at about 3am

although granted having never been there I don't know the layout of the place

anyone with google earth that knows the layout could you perhaps point out a few landmarks and the location of AC bar and the murder area

https://www.google.co.th/maps/@10.0891645,99.8258572,159m/data=!3m1!1e3

Muang Muang went back to their own room to get, IIRC, a bottle of wine back to the beach, he didn't go to a store.

Personally I find it hard to believe that three men drinking three bottles of beer and one bottle of wine among them would end up too drunk to remember anything.

The last sentence is speculative, and not based on any case-specific scientific evidence. And has no bearing on the B2's movements or where they were at 4am. And another point. Hannah's friends stated she left the AC bar with David between 3-4 am. If true, where is that CCTV?

This seen leaving by Hannah's friend(s) between 3 and 4 got mentioned in the Daily Mail within a week or so of the murders, but I never really saw it again. There was so much erroneous / rumour based reporting going on at the time (and even a lot since) that I'm wondering if this is true.

Do we know if the cctv showing Hannah entering the bar at 1am showed her entering with one or more friends? If so I would be very interested in hearing what said friend(s) had to say about events after they entered the bar in the absence of cctv footage being made available.

[AleG]

I wish the factual reporting on this case was better : information about the actual DNA evidence that has been presented doesn't seem to be reported anywhere. What was the explanation given for the rapidity of the DNA test by the police forensics witness?

As a matter of technical procedure , it isn't really possible to process internal rape kit DNA samples in a few hours. This is because in rape kit swabs the female victim's DNA is in nearly always in vast excess (99%) , and so any signal from the male(s) DNA will be swamped out.

There are two things that can be done to compensate for this. The first is to extract the DNA differentially- without going into it in huge detail, the samples are treated first with a reagent that removes female cells' DNA, leaving sperm cells intact. The DNA is then prepared from the remaining sperm and there is then little or no female DNA left to interfere. This procedure usually takes overnight, it can't usually be done in together with the actual profiling in just a few hours (unless huge technical advances have happened in the last 4 years), and no results are usually possible for the standard profile test if it isn't done.

The other way is to test the DNA for Y chromosome markers only. This means you do not have to do any special preparation other than isolate DNA from the swabs, which can be done in an hour or so. The profiling is done using kits that reveal Y chromosome markers. As only males have the Y chromosome, this means any signal is definitely from male DNA alone.

The disadvantage of this is that the DNA profile is much less discriminatory than the standard test- for a start all close male relatives will have the exact same profile- and secondly from values of the order of 10's of billions to one chance of misidentification for the standard kind of DNA profiling tests, the probability of misidentification for Y-profiling can sink to values between 1 in 340 to 1 in 100,000 (say) depending on the local population. I think this must have been the test that was done, but this isn't reported.

This kind of test opens doubt, as if there is a 1 in 340 or even 1 in 10, 000 chance of a random member of the population having the same profile as the accused you cannot say for sure that the crime scene DNA is from the accused. There is a big difference between being able to testify that the chance of a profile coming from a random person who is not the accused is 50 billion to one, and 1000 to one. The second simply isn't good enough to prove identity.

However the huge value of Y chromosome profiles is that they can instantly exclude suspects-if the accused don't have the same Y profile as the crime scene DNA it simply cannot be them.

Additionally, if the male DNA is a mix of more than one subject, even with the full non-Y DNA method (which couldn't have been done here-not enough time) this makes definite interpretation of all the markers difficult and can increase the probability of an incorrect ID, from billions to one to thousands to one if the mix is problematical. All identifications are given a probability in the report, based on the number of markers that could be unambiguously identified, and if the probability is low , evidentiary value is also low.

However this needs to be pointed out in court, because judges and policemen do not know this: so a DNA expert witness is essential.

One has to keep in mind that reports of what has been going on inside courtroom are coming mostly from the defense team and from a press that by and large has shown, if not a clear bias on their favour, at least a tendency to sensationalize and/or getting things wrong; i.e. the brouhaha over "all DNA evidence is lost" from the previous hearing.

Regarding the DNA analysis, I don't know if this is the way it's done, but in this case were they were collecting samples from up to 300 people to analyze I would expect them to go through them with the fastest (albeit imprecise) method first and if a possible match would be found then subject that to a more rigorous analysis.

[Nigeone]

I wish the factual reporting on this case was better : information about the actual DNA evidence that has been presented doesn't seem to be reported anywhere. What was the explanation given for the rapidity of the DNA test by the police forensics witness?

As a matter of technical procedure , it isn't really possible to process internal rape kit DNA samples in a few hours. This is because in rape kit swabs the female victim's DNA is in nearly always in vast excess (99%) , and so any signal from the male(s) DNA will be swamped out.

There are two things that can be done to compensate for this. The first is to extract the DNA differentially- without going into it in huge detail, the samples are treated first with a reagent that removes female cells' DNA, leaving sperm cells intact. The DNA is then prepared from the remaining sperm and there is then little or no female DNA left to interfere. This procedure usually takes overnight, it can't usually be done in together with the actual profiling in just a few hours (unless huge technical advances have happened in the last 4 years), and no results are usually possible for the standard profile test if it isn't done.

The other way is to test the DNA for Y chromosome markers only. This means you do not have to do any special preparation other than isolate DNA from the swabs, which can be done in an hour or so. The profiling is done using kits that reveal Y chromosome markers. As only males have the Y chromosome, this means any signal is definitely from male DNA alone.

The disadvantage of this is that the DNA profile is much less discriminatory than the standard test- for a start all close male relatives will have the exact same profile- and secondly from values of the order of 10's of billions to one chance of misidentification for the standard kind of DNA profiling tests, the probability of misidentification for Y-profiling can sink to values between 1 in 340 to 1 in 100,000 (say) depending on the local population. I think this must have been the test that was done, but this isn't reported.

This kind of test opens doubt, as if there is a 1 in 340 or even 1 in 10, 000 chance of a random member of the population having the same profile as the accused you cannot say for sure that the crime scene DNA is from the accused. There is a big difference between being able to testify that the chance of a profile coming from a random person who is not the accused is 50 billion to one, and 1000 to one. The second simply isn't good enough to prove identity.

However the huge value of Y chromosome profiles is that they can instantly exclude suspects-if the accused don't have the same Y profile as the crime scene DNA it simply cannot be them.

Additionally, if the male DNA is a mix of more than one subject, even with the full non-Y DNA method (which couldn't have been done here-not enough time) this makes definite interpretation of all the markers difficult and can increase the probability of an incorrect ID, from billions to one to thousands to one if the mix is problematical. All identifications are given a probability in the report, based on the number of markers that could be unambiguously identified, and if the probability is low , evidentiary value is also low.

However this needs to be pointed out in court, because judges and policemen do not know this: so a DNA expert witness is essential.

I think the defense have certainly got this covered as the guy they have lined up as a very very impressive CV based around work around British military. Im sure also they have a few other strings to there bow with regards witnesses and DNA and like others it's been to quiet from Hannah's friends etc so I'm absolutely sure that they will have been told to not say anything . Mind you the defense hasn't really been needed yet has it! Now it's been 8 days and still no sign of credible or indeed any evidence pointing to the B2.

I am sure that friends of Hannah and David will be following this forum topic and it must be encouraging to see so many good people fighting for there friends and justice.

[AleG]

The jury is out for me on the involvement of NS. The only thing I know for sure regarding him is that he was chatting to his facebook pals about it later on the 15th.

Is it possible that all this BS could be the result of the PM saying No Thai would do this? If it turned out to be a Thai would this be loss of face for the biggest man in Thailand? Twas a silly statement to make because Thais have done plenty of horrific crimes previously, even not dissimilar to this one.

It is surprising (or should I really say not suprising) that there is not better quality footage of the running man, maybe from some of the other working cameras such as those that captured the victims final movements that night. The build and certainly that peculiar arm movement are definitely similar.

So much rumour around all aspects of NS 'alibi' and right from the off on day one he was being heavily pointed to by many people. Why did his name come up so quickly if he wasn't there? Even his Father said initially that he had had to rush back to university didn't he before the story changed? The speedboat story came on day one too and based on what I can understand of yesterday's testimony it sounds like yes there was a speedboat leaving the beach shortly after the murders!

I'm surprised that nothing concrete has yet surfaced if he was on the island. AC bar withholding all cctv from inside is very iffy though. 2 main reasons I can think of are:

1. something happened re Hannah and/or David in there

2. NS would have been on the video

Could the police not have demanded this in Thailand? If so and if they didn't then that screams cover up (of something).

From what I understand a lot of bars/resorts have cctv pointing to the beach yet the police have not seen any footage from any of these (allegedly), is that correct?. Honestly it feels like a bunch of 5 year olds could have done a better job!

A few things, first Prayuth never made that comment about "No Thai could do this", so if that is your basis to think there is pressure to save his face by nailing two Burmese scapegoats perhaps you should reevaluate things.

As for Nomsod and his "peculiar" arm movement, people are comparing when the man on the CCTV footage in Koh Tao reaches across his chest to, I suppose, scratch the other side of his chest or opposite arm with Nomsod on the CCTV footage at the lobby reaching up to brush his hair. I find it amazingly intellectually dishonest to see that some people are using two frames from each video, showing the arms bending up as proof that they show the same unusual walking style and therefore they should be the same person.

Lastly, bars are supposed by law to close at 2AM, I wouldn't be surprised if they'd stop CCTV recordings after that time as a matter of course, or altogether to avoid filming other questionable activities going on in the premises.