Koh Tao: Trial opens for 2 accused of killing British tourists

[docshock13]

So whatever the reason no tests possible, so where does that leave a case that was clinging to this vital evidence

Good question. No INDEPENDENT RETESTS possible. It leaves the court with only one source of DNA evidence (the reports and conclusions provided by the RTP and prosecution, not actual viable samples to independently retest). So, the court is expected to take the RTP's and prosecution's word. It's all in the script written last year. The actors just needed time to get their lines straight.

I think it might be possible to get re-examination of some DNA. The police chief said there's still some DNA in storage. However, his credence quotient is low, so trusting samples stored-by and provided by the RTP - takes a leap of naive trust.

That's why findings by Brit Coroner's Office is vital - for any semblence of credence re; DNA in this case.

As for condom and cig butt, fogedabowdit, they're red herrings. The less said about them, the better. I had wondered if the 'blonde hair' might reveal anything, but it's now officially lost, so we can forget about that also. Maybe it pointed to one of the people who the RTP are shielding, so that would explain why it's conveniently 'lost.'

There are so many bits of evidence and qualifying issues in this case - but at the pace it's going, with 3 days gone already, it looks like the trial may only touch upon 7% of relevant evidence and issues. Just one issue: After the judge approved (in late April), and the put off the defense's request (in early June) to have key evidence re-examined, he said that he will make a decision on the first day of the trial (July 8). On that first day, he said he would make a decision on the following day - which was Thursday, yesterday. Now we're at Friday. Has he made a decision, or will he continue to postpone the decision?

I believe the answer to your question is a moot point now. As the court now doesn't have to make a decision on account that there is supposedly no DNA to re-test.

As I said. It was all scripted last year. Everyone in lock step now.

My thoughts are with the Miller and Witheridge families now. To first endure tragedy and now endure this travesty. As others have posted, it must be certainly painful to see their loss twisted into some face-saving political game.

There are so many unanswered questions and inconsistencies from the "investigation" I am in disbelief that the 2 suspects were even charged and this even came to trial.

[Transporter]

If this was put to a secret ballot of the people on this island these two men would walk free and the real killers would be on trial.

The poor suckered police from the UK were probably supplied all the evidence by the same bunch who got the phone call from the real killer giving the names and addresses of the two men on trial.

Pray for justice. Pray for a proper unbiased, unpaid jury. Not 3 people who eat breakfast at the same early open two egg and sliced Chinese sausage shop as the local plod.

What chance is there for justice if the same hand does the whole job from sifting the evidence right through to execution.

These two underpaid barmen aren't gonna buy anyone a Merc are they?

Gonna watch Death Wish 3 now to make me feel better.

[Thaidream]

Reading all this and knowing how the system in Thailand works, It is most depressing. My heart goes out the families and to the deceased. So young and so much to live for. I can only hope and pray the truth will eventually be known. However, my understanding and experiences in Thailand have lead me to believe that years will pass and most everyone will have forgotten. But I won/t forget I still remember the others.

[bamukloy]

Let us ALSO not forget that a week ago the

Head Surat Thani Prosecutor was murdered in his home.

The person with the most knowledge of the evidence and it's provenance died with his throat slashed, sitting in a chair in his home.

Ostensibly a robbery gone wrong, but oh so convenient for this case, if you want to direct a verdict based on fear and intimidation on all levels... Not just scaring off of a translator....

[HughJass]

A lot of things seem to have been forgotten now all of the focus is on the dna - or lack thereof. The person on the CCTV who looked remarkably like a "local" who was claiming to be in BKK (and on their cctv the next day). The argument in the bar, the taxi driver who was beaten by the police for refusing to give a false statement saying he witnessed the whole thing.. and etc...

whose that shaking hands with David 0.30 -0.40 ?

[jdinasia]

Let us ALSO not forget that a week ago the

Head Surat Thani Prosecutor was murdered in his home.

The person with the most knowledge of the evidence and it's provenance died with his throat slashed, sitting in a chair in his home.

Ostensibly a robbery gone wrong, but oh so convenient for this case, if you want to direct a verdict based on fear and intimidation on all levels... Not just scaring off of a translator....

But that (unrelated though it is) doesn't fit in with the conspiracy theorists and would only benefit the 2 Burmese defendants....

[GOLDBUGGY]

10 July 2015

Police tried to manipulate Koh Tao witness, court told

Police on Koh Tao tried to persuade a witness at the Witheridge-Miller crime scene into saying that he had wiped blood off an alleged murder weapon, according to Aung Myo Thant, a lawyer for the defence team.

Speaking to DVB on Thursday evening, the lawyer said the court heard testimony from a Burmese migrant named U Oh, who was a garbage collector on Sairee Beach during the period in September 2014 when British tourists Hannah Witheridge and David Miller were murdered.

“U Oh confirmed he was the owner of the garden hoe, which is alleged to have been used as the murder weapon in the case,” Aung Myo Thant said. “A police officer had earlier testified that the hoe was used to murder the victims, then the blood-stained tool was placed under a bag and discarded on the beach.”

But U Oh testified that the hoe was in the same place he left it the night before, the lawyer said.

https://www.dvb.no/news/police-tried-to-manipulate-koh-tao-witness-court-told/54664

And so the comedy of errors continue. One thing about lying is that one needs to keep inventing more and more creative lies to try and uphold the first lie.

Always best to tell the truth because the story will then be always consistent.

The police officer must be right, the migrant garbage collector is mistaken. While my statement is sarcastic, it highlights the difficulties the defence has to discredit an officer duty-bound to uphold the law, and thus a more credible witness than a migrant garbage cleaner who is just sticking up for his countrymen. Could the PO be one of JLC's perjured witnesses? Or is it U Oh?

Many on here have commented for months how ridiculous it was the RTP sticking to the story of the hoe being the murder weapon considering what the wounds looked like. But of course according to a few- the rtp had the murder weapon as "evidence" and anything else (including testing and expert opinions on the likely weapons used) were of course conspiracy theories and hearsay. As others have said it is bizarre how little effort has been made to actually come up with a frame-job that made any sense. I'm sure I could have done better in a couple of days.

The one thing that worries me is that outside of England and Myanmar there seems to be little interest in the case. So how much effect will it really have on Thailand if they are found guilty when only two countries seem to be reporting or care about what a farce it is?

I thought that Johnathan guy was from Sky News, and I thought that was Australian? Also CNN has been reporting and they are International.

As to the Garden Hoe this is being held by the Prosecution as evidence. That is not Hear Say! That is a fact! We will find out why when the Forensic Expert Testifies for the Prosecution.

[thailandchilli]

Let us ALSO not forget that a week ago the

Head Surat Thani Prosecutor was murdered in his home.

The person with the most knowledge of the evidence and it's provenance died with his throat slashed, sitting in a chair in his home.

Ostensibly a robbery gone wrong, but oh so convenient for this case, if you want to direct a verdict based on fear and intimidation on all levels... Not just scaring off of a translator....

But that (unrelated though it is) doesn't fit in with the conspiracy theorists and would only benefit the 2 Burmese defendants....

What or who is a conspiracy theorist to you? Is it anyone who does not agree with the RTP "story" or rather "theory"?

Or is it something more specific in that they believe what the defense says or that they believe there may be other killers at large?

It would be nice to know

Not looking for the dictionary interpretation as we all know what this is

Edited July 10, 2015 by thailandchilli

[sweatalot]

It must be clear that the rtp will gain a conviction. Any other result would be impossible. That's what happens here

I don't want to be so sure.

Anyway - if it be so let's make it as difficult as possible for them and make them loose all of their face

[StealthEnergiser]

A lot of things seem to have been forgotten now all of the focus is on the dna - or lack thereof. The person on the CCTV who looked remarkably like a "local" who was claiming to be in BKK (and on their cctv the next day). The argument in the bar, the taxi driver who was beaten by the police for refusing to give a false statement saying he witnessed the whole thing.. and etc...

whose that shaking hands with David 0.30 -0.40 ?

There must people who live on the island and others that recognise that number 9 shirt or the writing on the back , maybe a certain bar uses that as style for all staff.

If people don't want to say on the forum just send a message .

Edited July 10, 2015 by StealthEnergiser

[bamukloy]

Let us ALSO not forget that a week ago the

Head Surat Thani Prosecutor was murdered in his home.

The person with the most knowledge of the evidence and it's provenance died with his throat slashed, sitting in a chair in his home.

Ostensibly a robbery gone wrong, but oh so convenient for this case, if you want to direct a verdict based on fear and intimidation on all levels... Not just scaring off of a translator....

Was that prosecutor involved with the case? If so, perhaps he expressed doubts about the solidity of getting a conviction, and that could have angered some peopel, who then....... Sorry for speculating, but perhaps he looked at (and gave credence to) evidence which pointed to the real killers. That would have really spooked some important people at Ko Tao.

Or, to speculate, maybe he was complicit in the rejecting of the case prosecution those few times. Maybe he agreed or had a part in making the decision to send the case back.

or just maybe he wanted to completely wipe his hands of it..and in so might become a witness for the defence?

Yes wild speculation..but has it been aswered..why did he die? What motive for the murder?

I havent heard any news about this on thai TV. It seems the poor guys death might go down as collateral damage or just with all the hoo-haa, left in the back pages.

what a sad thing for his family..and yet another injustice with no suspect or resolution for the family.

Could it be that the reason for all this is that the Thai justice never been put under so much tough scrutiny?

Someone up high has got to step in to try and make some sense of this debacle.

Goodness knows we have heard every other possible issue mentioned on the TV every friday night.

[Emster23]

"the case has been called a test of Thailand's justice system" and in Thai school system all get promoted regardless of test scores....

[loonodingle]

No matter what the issue is, if it doesn't fit with your version of 'the truth' you reject out of hand. What possible motive would an interpreter have for making up a story about being warned off. It DOES have a ring of truth, all things considered.

Well Jonathan Samuels of SKY News, who claimed that his translator had been 'warned off', filed a report today from Koh Samui so either the 'warned off' translator is still there, he found another non-warned off translator, or he has learned courtroom-vocabulary Thai very fast.

Funny that crabby. I read that Jack Hansen-Bartel had started as well but and I quote

"Jack Hansen-Bartel who hates the Koh Samui justice system with a vengeance after being viciously attacked on the island last year in a police controlled nightclub has been assisting in the court translating for people on the defence team. He too was approached but that appears to have been reconsidered quickly"

Like trying to hold a Hot piece of coal I think.

What should be happening is they have a free and fair trial. Free from interference and fair that pre disclosure takes place. However it appears the prosecution are thrashing around like a conger eel trying to not get caught out. All the things that people like you wanted hey!!!

Yet your not getting it are you. Not a lot you had hoped for is happening. In fact I notice a distinct void on the forums lately. A few odd comments because habits are hard to break but other than that a weak and somewhat feeble few comments chucked in as and when.

[northernphil]

Mafia comes from the term "Mafiosa", which was a secret criminal organization operating in the 1800's on the Italian Island of Sicily, and in which later moved their criminal activities to the United States.

I am sorry, but even after taking a good hard long look at this Headman, he just doesn't look Italian to me.

In Thailand, the word 'mafia' is well understood. It's a tap sap (a thai word meaning: 'word or phrase taken from another language'). I was once pulled off a moving bicycle by a plainclothes big Chinese looking man at a park in northern Thailand. Right away, I was surrounded by six big plain clothes guys. They tried to grab my arms. I wouldn't let them, and I asked out loud, 'are you mafia?' The biggest guy grinned and said they were special police. I asked to see ID. He flickered a biz card in my face, which I couldn't read. It turns out, there was an ASEAN meeting across town, and these Thai special police were bored and wanted to pick on a farang, so they picked on skinny ol' me. They told me to take them to my house, to get my passport. I said 'sure' and wound up leading the caravan of 3 black SUV's in circles around town. When we figured I was wasting their time, they got pissed off. I demanded to go to the real police station. They grudgingly complied. The big guy wanted to haul me to a back room. I physically resisted and responded to his shouts with shouts of my own. The chief of police was witnessing all this, with a big grin on his face. Later, the special police mafia-wannabes had enough abuse from me, so they split. I can see why they hate farang - we're not as compliant as Thais, and are less likely to kiss-ass to authority. ....some of us, anyway.

Nice story.

Yeah... You could work that up into a novel, and with a catchy title you could probably sell quite a few at the airport.

Filed as Fiction of course. ;-)

Funny that, I was only just thinking . One day this will make a great film, whatever the result is. In my 'umble opinion I think lack of evidence and it will be chucked ouit but should a news reporter hand around for a few weeks , the truth might be heard. As I said yesterday , very few ferlungs will bother coming here anymore. ( Koh Tao )

[minikev]

I didn't think there was any DNA evidence to retest, we are told it is lost.

The "less important" DNA eg. from the cigarette butt is used up or maybe lost. The more important DNA is supposedly safe in Bangkok.

The red L&M cigarette butt or butts was the reason for the police to knock on the B2's door as they were supposed to have bought L&M red that evening. I'd say they are quite important pieces of evidence.

Looks like having a Fag on the beach makes you a murderer then??

The important stuff like the semen samples not available. Don't get knocked off course Kev. It could of been you who had a fag that night and now locked up after you gave in to repeated torture. Just remember there was 3 DNA profile from Hannah as well. 2 are in the dock accused of being the guilty people.

What I meant in that post was that the police may have to show what lead them to the B2 in the first place before interrogation etc. The fact that the cig butt or butts are used up lost or destroyed means they no longer have evidence of what lead them there to be analized.

[sambum]

Let us ALSO not forget that a week ago the

Head Surat Thani Prosecutor was murdered in his home.

The person with the most knowledge of the evidence and it's provenance died with his throat slashed, sitting in a chair in his home.

Ostensibly a robbery gone wrong, but oh so convenient for this case, if you want to direct a verdict based on fear and intimidation on all levels... Not just scaring off of a translator....

But that (unrelated though it is) doesn't fit in with the conspiracy theorists and would only benefit the 2 Burmese defendants....

Sorry, I'm confused! "doesn't fit in with the conspiracy theorists" ???

[thailandchilli]

Yeah... You could work that up into a novel, and with a catchy title you could probably sell quite a few at the airport.

Filed as Fiction of course. ;-)

Funny that, I was only just thinking . One day this will make a great film, whatever the result is. In my 'umble opinion I think lack of evidence and it will be chucked ouit but should a news reporter hand around for a few weeks , the truth might be heard. As I said yesterday , very few ferlungs will bother coming here anymore. ( Koh Tao )

Its a safe bet there's a few international producers around having already gained the funding needed to make some good investigative documentaries with a fairly large comedy section on the RTP trial presentation.

[JLCrab]

No matter what the issue is, if it doesn't fit with your version of 'the truth' you reject out of hand. What possible motive would an interpreter have for making up a story about being warned off. It DOES have a ring of truth, all things considered.

Well Jonathan Samuels of SKY News, who claimed that his translator had been 'warned off', filed a report today from Koh Samui so either the 'warned off' translator is still there, he found another non-warned off translator, or he has learned courtroom-vocabulary Thai very fast.

Funny that crabby. I read that Jack Hansen-Bartel had started as well but and I quote

"Jack Hansen-Bartel who hates the Koh Samui justice system with a vengeance after being viciously attacked on the island last year in a police controlled nightclub has been assisting in the court translating for people on the defence team. He too was approached but that appears to have been reconsidered quickly"

Like trying to hold a Hot piece of coal I think.

What should be happening is they have a free and fair trial. Free from interference and fair that pre disclosure takes place. However it appears the prosecution are thrashing around like a conger eel trying to not get caught out. All the things that people like you wanted hey!!!

Yet your not getting it are you. Not a lot you had hoped for is happening. In fact I notice a distinct void on the forums lately. A few odd comments because habits are hard to break but other than that a weak and somewhat feeble few comments chucked in as and when.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/804973-capital-punishment-concerns-raised-over-thai-backpackers-murder-case/page-27#entry9216377

[bkkdawg]

RTP know they're <deleted> need to play this one out until all forgotten about

[kkup]

I love how the Chief throws in a last minute curve ball to make the comedy even more amusing.

[Linky]

BANGKOK: The national police chief has dismissed as a misunderstanding on the part of the defence lawyer and foreign media that the DNA tests of two Myanmar migrant workers charged with the killing of two British tourists on Koh Tao last September have gone missing.

Pol Gen Somyot Pumpunmuang clarified Friday that the DNA tests had been sent to the Forensic Science Institute for examation and then returned to the enquiry officers in charge of the murder case to be incorporated in the case file for court trial.

No misunderstanding here regarding that "clarification"! I said yesterday that early on in the case, somebody had suggested that key evidence would get "lost" along the way. What Pol Gen Somyot is saying is that the actual tests have not gone missing i.e. the reports or findings from the tests, but later reports indicate that the material tested has been "finished" or "lost" or "that there was only enough material to do one test." I must admit, I didn't see that one coming! Sorry if this sounds like a conspiracy theory, but "let's do the tests and then get rid of, or contaminate what material is left so that it can't be retested"

I wouldn't put anything past the RTP or bthe prosecution in this case, and I must admit that I thought "independent testing" would involve the material being tested in another country, not at the same place as the original tests were carried out by someone who apparently is well respected, but in her present capacity could certainly be "leaned upon". Or is that another "misunderstanding"?

Not sure how you didn't see that coming. Lets face it 100,000 + people signed a petition for independent verification of the DNA. Prayut agreed so we sent a Norfolk forensics officer along with 2 other officers to Thailand. They then where refused access to the evidence and that's been confirmed in a letter from the Met Polee confirming this. See attachment.

I personally harangued Hannah's MP Brandon Lewis asking him to make sure he gets David Cameron to kick up a fuss. Whilst they thought I was a nutter maybe its all coming home to roost for the UK Gov now isn't.

The poor family's of ALL involved while this charade plays out in the worlds media.

The DNA is all they have linking the young men... Its not illegal to be on a beach or smoke a cigarette. and they have lost the samples..

God help any us if we get into trouble in Thailand. I know from personal experience how the law works.

Met Police 1.jpg

Met Police 2.jpg

Interesting. So the Met had no real iclusionn in the investigation, were only allowed to partially view certain limited statements, not all of a statement, just sit there and watch very limited information provided by RTP, who now says its finished or missing.

So from that, the Met were able to convey and convince the families of the deceased that there was a strong case to answer.

Go figure. A little knowledge is a dangerous thing.

[stephenterry]

I love how the Chief throws in a last minute curve ball to make the comedy even more amusing.

it's not a comedy for the b2.

[StealthEnergiser]

[catsanddogs]

Pol Gen Somyot says report of missing DNA tests is a misunderstanding

BANGKOK:— The national police chief has dismissed as a misunderstanding on the part of the defence lawyer and foreign media that the DNA tests of two Myanmar migrant workers charged with the killing of two British tourists on Koh Tao last September have gone missing.

Pol Gen Somyot Pumpunmuang clarified Friday that the DNA tests had been sent to the Forensic Science Institute for examation and then returned to the enquiry officers in charge of the murder case to be incorporated in the case file for court trial.

He said that the claim by the enquiry officers to the court that they did not keep the DNA tests was normal because if the defence lawyer wanted to check the DNA tests, he or she must ask for it through the court.

The national police chief said that the DNA tests were just one piece of evidence out of a host of evidences collected by the police to build up a case against the two Myanmar migrant workers.

The DNA tests included a test of hair specimen of one of the two defendants found in the hand of one of the two victims, Ms Hannah Witheridge.

Ms Witheridge and her boyfriends, David Miller were killed on Koh Tao on last September 15.

Source: http://englishnews.thaipbs.or.th/pol-gen-somyot-says-report-of-missing-dna-tests-is-a-misunderstanding

-- Thai PBS 2015-07-10

'Boyfriend'? Bad reporting. Unless thaipbs knows something other than most.

[docshock13]

RTP know they're f'd need to play this one out until all forgotten about

RTP is fine. They got the blessing all the way from the top last year. Just facing some problems as the defence and int'l media not following the script.

In what civilised country does a PM (self-appointed) make comments (blaming the victims) and CONCLUSIONS (it was the 2 Burmese) (personally reviewing the case file himself) about an ongoing criminal investigation? This guy already passed down the verdict before the invstigation was finished (or even started).

He wrote the ending. It has now been up to everyone else to make the story fit and fill in the missing bits.

Do Cameron, Merkel, Obama, Hollande, Harper, Putin and other world leaders get personally involved in criminal investigations? Let alone throw in their two cents (or personal verdict)? They are the executive branch. Not the judicial and legislative branches. They are not cops, judge and jury. But this guy...

This interference would be seen as prejudicial and the suspects would be released (whether guilty or not) as due process had been circumvented. On top of that, he would be put up himself for obstruction to justice (in a transparent legal system).

Not presuming guilt or innocence of the accused, but this stinks to high heaven at even the most upper echelons of Thai society and power.

The fix is in. The fix was in nearly from the beginning when Mamen implicated the most plausible suspects. But they were Thai. And connected. And it could hurt the tourism industry.

Then it became time to write fairytales.

Where is Officer Mamen now?

[englishoak]

Delayed now for a few more weeks so the RTP can get their excuses evidence fit up straight.

[catsanddogs]

So whatever the reason no tests possible, so where does that leave a case that was clinging to this vital evidence

With a shopping trolley full of holes.

[tingtongfarang]

Yeah... You could work that up into a novel, and with a catchy title you could probably sell quite a few at the airport.

Filed as Fiction of course. ;-)

Funny that, I was only just thinking . One day this will make a great film, whatever the result is. In my 'umble opinion I think lack of evidence and it will be chucked ouit but should a news reporter hand around for a few weeks , the truth might be heard. As I said yesterday , very few ferlungs will bother coming here anymore. ( Koh Tao )

Its a safe bet there's a few international producers around having already gained the funding needed to make some good investigative documentaries with a fairly large comedy section on the RTP trial presentation.

And the thai government will make the movie even more popular by blocking/banning it in thailand.

[phuketandsee]

A picture is worth what?

Remember this press conference?

Now ask yourself how the head man of a pissant little island gets the top cop of the entire country to sit beside him for an announcement that his son's (long refused) DNA test has come back negative.

You really think DNA (or any other "evidence" for that matter) has any relevance here?

Edited July 10, 2015 by phuketandsee

[docshock13]

A picture is worth what?

Remember this press conference?

1414785018021_wps_24_Bangkok_Thailand_30th_Oct.jpg

Now ask yourself how the head man of a pissant little island gets the top cop of the entire country to sit beside him for an announcement that his son's (long refused) DNA test has come back negative.

You really think DNA (or any other "evidence" for that matter) has any relevance here?

Well said, brother. Edited July 10, 2015 by docshock13