Koh Tao: Trial opens for 2 accused of killing British tourists

[BritTim]

Correct Crabby...

No mention of what caused them and they will not until the inquest is formally in session.

However the coroners officer will have disclosed the results of the forensics to the defence as they are an interested party. So this doesn't come from the Police or the FCO but the coroner. And now defence getting a UK expert to travel to give evidence about the autopsy results.

I say watch this space my friend watch this space.

the coroners officer will have disclosed the results of the forensics to the defence as they are an interested party

That is unclear. In a case that carries the death penalty, no official UK assistance is supposed to be provided to either the defense or prosecution. I think the policy is misguided. Also, there are some reports of regional police forces in the UK carrying out interviews to assist the Thai authorities. To what extent was the defense allowed to know what the UK knows? Time will tell.

[JLCrab]

Yes -- however GSW and BFT seem to be standard coroner preliminary observations.

Actually Crabby I think that description is from the Thai coroner not the UK coroner as its dated 1st October. The DNA check and confirmation would have been from samples sent possibly? its to short a time from the tragedy to this report for a UK autopsy report I think.

The quote is from the UK Coroner Ms. Lake who had already had sufficient time to perform DNA analysis to be able to identify the remains.

[JohnThailandJohn]

As stated very early on, I am confident these two will plead guilty. There will be no verdict from the court. Despite those that have an agenda to ignore reality for their own axes to grind to ignore facts and reality and focus on obscure implausible scenarios, the evidence is overwhelming these two did it. This is just a show for defense to see if there is any way to punch holes in the case and garner public support from the public before striking a deal that will hopefully spare the defendants life in the long run and have them one day see freedom again.

[loonodingle]

Correct Crabby...

No mention of what caused them and they will not until the inquest is formally in session.

However the coroners officer will have disclosed the results of the forensics to the defence as they are an interested party. So this doesn't come from the Police or the FCO but the coroner. And now defence getting a UK expert to travel to give evidence about the autopsy results.

I say watch this space my friend watch this space.

the coroners officer will have disclosed the results of the forensics to the defence as they are an interested party

That is unclear. In a case that carries the death penalty, no official UK assistance is supposed to be provided to either the defense or prosecution. I think the policy is misguided. Also, there are some reports of regional police forces in the UK carrying out interviews to assist the Thai authorities. To what extent was the defense allowed to know what the UK knows? Time will tell.

All people who have a legal interest are entitled by law to obtain the records. Don't forget they have Solicitor and QC's working on this in the UK

There is significant information that contradicts the Thai facts. That statement is out there. Its also revealed they are seeking funds for a forensic expert to attend as a witness. This will be for the disclosure to the court. You watch... this space.

[loonodingle]

Yes -- however GSW and BFT seem to be standard coroner preliminary observations.

Actually Crabby I think that description is from the Thai coroner not the UK coroner as its dated 1st October. The DNA check and confirmation would have been from samples sent possibly? its to short a time from the tragedy to this report for a UK autopsy report I think.

The quote is from the UK Coroner Ms. Lake who had already had sufficient time to perform DNA analysis to be able to identify the remains.

I think u r correct crabby.

However this isn't a statement of BFT or GSW its a preliminary observation of severe head injury. Not the causes of it.

[JLCrab]

The UK criminal forensic expert who spent time with the KT defense team last month is named Mike Moulden.

[loonodingle]

The UK criminal forensic expert who spent time with the KT defense team last month is named Mike Moulden.

Well there you go then.

They are onto something.

[loonodingle]

Bingo!!! Michael Riggs-Moulden

Forensic, Crime Scene & Exploitation Consultant and Trainer.

Location Plymouth, United Kingdom Industry Law Enforcement

Current

1. UK Ministry of Defence

Previous

1. EULEX Kosovo, European Union Rule of Law Mission,
2. Defence Academy of the UK,
3. UN

Education

1. Cranfield University

UK Ministry of Defence

Subject Matter Expert

Starting

January 2012

View full profile

Background

Experience

Subject Matter Expert UK Ministry of DefenceJanuary 2012– Present (3 years 7 months)Afghanistan

Counter Terrorism Forensic Exploitation

Forensic Consultant EULEX Kosovo, European Union Rule of Law MissionApril 2014– April 2014(1 month)Brussels Area, Belgium

Forensic and Crime Scene Evidence Consolidation

Crime Scene & Forensic Associate Lecturer Defence Academy of the UKApril 2014– April 2014(1 month)Shrivenham, England

Lecturing and Consultancy in Forensic and Crime Scene specialisms both domestically and internationally.

Forensic Expert UNSeptember 2006– December 2011(5 years 4 months)

Head of Forensic Services Special Anti Crime Unit2006– 2009(3 years)

Crime Scene Supervisor/Manager Dorset Police2004– 2006(2 years)

Forensic Mentor Crime Scene Project Afghanistan2004– 2004(less than a year)

Scenes of Crime Officer Surrey Police2000– 2003(3 years)

[Sonhia]

Efforts should be focused at the son of the head-man, from Koh Tao. Living very close to the Island, as I do and have been for years, many have witnessed the brutal way in which this indivual operates. The forementioned individual,(son), is very feared. Gun and knife culture is the norm and man are in fear for their safety, in this part of, so called paradise! The culprit is on that Island. It is common knowledge in Chumphon. People know the truth but are unable to speak. The authorities need to take a closer look at those so called 'up and standing members of the public', on Koh Tao.

[Sonhia]

Son of head man could be the answer? The authorities need to take a closer look at this individual. Living in Chumphon, Thai and farang alike have a very good idea who the real culprit is. Not much can be said simply because this part of paradise is ruled by guns and knifes. That simple

[loonodingle]

Efforts should be focused at the son of the head-man, from Koh Tao. Living very close to the Island, as I do and have been for years, many have witnessed the brutal way in which this indivual operates. The forementioned individual,(son), is very feared. Gun and knife culture is the norm and man are in fear for their safety, in this part of, so called paradise! The culprit is on that Island. It is common knowledge in Chumphon. People know the truth but are unable to speak. The authorities need to take a closer look at those so called 'up and standing members of the public', on Koh Tao.

Sonhia,

perhaps as you have taken time to post that on here you could also send any information to the lawyer. You can do this without disclosing your name. But why don't you ask around, find out everything you can and send an email with all the info you find. If you are concerned about being exposed as the provider of said info then send email from a free wifi spot using a new email address. This way nothing comes back to you and the information can be looked at.

Giving you the satisfaction that the perpetrator's are convicted and you are not involved.

[GOLDBUGGY]

September 20, 2014 Media Report

DNA found on Witheridge and a cigarette butt found AT the scene.

Police looking for 3 Westerners playing a guitar NEAR the scene.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/sep/19/thailand-murders-hannah-witheridge-david-miller-police

[GOLDBUGGY]

September 20, 2014

The Police were looking for 3 Westerners who were seen playing a guitar on the beach near the crime scene. This is important to note as they were not looking for 3 Migrant Workers, who this turned out to be.

They were looking for 3 Westerners because the only witness they had at that time was an elderly lady, who has already testified in court, who said she saw 3 people on the beach but could not identify who they were. That all she knew was that they were singing a Country & Western Song in English. Westerners sing Western Songs.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/sep/19/thailand-murders-hannah-witheridge-david-miller-police

[CapeThai]

They are sending so called evidence for retesting so it can get lost for real this time, due to the British also now came forward with evidence which will most probably be a complete different result to what the Thais have ??

They are stuck in a corner and they know it... Best way out...get rid of their scapegoat evidence and the case gets thrown out of court....problem solved and face is saved. The saving of face to be the most important here.

Just a thought...

[Lite Beer]

Evidence questions unresolved in Thai tourist murder trial
THANYARAT DOKSONE, Associated Press

BANGKOK (AP) — After three days of testimony in the murder trial of two Burmese migrants accused of killing two young British tourists on a Thai resort island, confusion remains over the disposition of key evidence.

Accounts by Thai media and spectators at the trial said the court on the southern island of Koh Samui on Friday ordered forensic retesting of several items found at the crime scene, including a shovel that is alleged to be the murder weapon.

However, the court failed to clarify what if anything should be done about DNA evidence obtained from the bodies and elsewhere that the defense has said is crucial to its case.

The trial has drawn global attention both for the gruesome murders on the quiet, scenic island of Koh Tao last September and for an investigation that raised questions about police and judicial competency in Thailand.

Initial press reports said the DNA evidence had been lost, but police have said that was a misunderstanding. They have reportedly told defense lawyers that at least in some cases, the samples were used up by the initial testing. But no clear official explanation has been issued.

"It is not lost," national police chief Gen. Somyot Poompanmoung told reporters in Bangkok before Friday's session. "I repeat: Nothing is lost."

Somyot called it a misunderstanding that stemmed from foreign media covering the case who might have poor Thai language skills.

Somyot said the local police investigator, Lt. Col. Somsak Nurod, was vague in his testimony and therefore was misinterpreted. Somsak was no longer in possession of the DNA evidence since he collected it and then sent it to the Forensics Medicine Institute in Bangkok, Somyot said.

"Nothing is missing. It's a misunderstanding," the police chief said.

The bodies of backpackers David Miller, 24, and Hannah Witheridge, 23, were found Sept. 15 on the rocky shores of Koh Tao. Autopsies showed that both had suffered severe head wounds and that Witheridge had been raped.

Under intense pressure to catch the murderers, police carried out DNA tests on more than 200 people on Koh Tao before arresting the two Myanmar migrants in early October.

The men — Win Zaw Htun and Zaw Lin, both 22 — have retracted their initial confessions, saying they were extracted through beatings and threats, which police deny. From the start, investigators faced a variety of criticisms, including for failing to secure the crime scene and for releasing names and pictures of suspects who turned out to be innocent.

Prosecutors say the DNA evidence, collected from cigarette butts, a condom and the bodies of the victims, links the two men to the killings, and defense lawyers have been requesting that evidence for re-examination since April.

Andy Hall, a British migrant rights activist working with the defense, said that handing over the DNA evidence was crucial to delivering justice.

"Without the samples it undermines the opportunity of the defense to get a fair trial," Hall said. "More importantly, if it is not provided, or if the forensics material is used up, it would undermine the credibility of the whole investigation."

___

Associated Press writer Jocelyn Gecker contributed to this report.

-- (c) Associated Press 2015-07-11

[JLCrab]

Yes -- however GSW and BFT seem to be standard coroner preliminary observations.

Actually Crabby I think that description is from the Thai coroner not the UK coroner as its dated 1st October. The DNA check and confirmation would have been from samples sent possibly? its to short a time from the tragedy to this report for a UK autopsy report I think.

The quote is from the UK Coroner Ms. Lake who had already had sufficient time to perform DNA analysis to be able to identify the remains.

I think u r correct crabby.

However this isn't a statement of BFT or GSW its a preliminary observation of severe head injury. Not the causes of it.

The recent Sunday Times article said a photograph that has been obtained by The Sunday Times 'appears to show shrapnel wounds to (Ms. Witheridge's) face.'

[GOLDBUGGY]

September 20, 2014

By this time a group of Burmese Migrant Workers had already been interviewed by Police after blood stains were found on their clothes.

It seems to me that if they were really looking for scapegoats this would have been the perfect time to do it and over a week earlier. Just dab a little of Hannah's or David's Blood on them, and Bingo! You have a match! Since many people here believe the DNA was just fabricated for the 2 accused, then it would have been just as easy to do here for 2 or 3 of them. The crime also took place in the wee hours of the morning, so surely not everyone had a Iron Clad Alibi.

But did the Police do this, when they easily could have? No! They released these Migrant Workers and continued to pursue what they thought at the time to be was 3 Westerners playing their guitar at the beach near the time of the murders.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/sep/19/thailand-murders-hannah-witheridge-david-miller-police

[loonodingle]

Yes -- however GSW and BFT seem to be standard coroner preliminary observations.

Actually Crabby I think that description is from the Thai coroner not the UK coroner as its dated 1st October. The DNA check and confirmation would have been from samples sent possibly? its to short a time from the tragedy to this report for a UK autopsy report I think.

The quote is from the UK Coroner Ms. Lake who had already had sufficient time to perform DNA analysis to be able to identify the remains.

I think u r correct crabby.

However this isn't a statement of BFT or GSW its a preliminary observation of severe head injury. Not the causes of it.

The recent Sunday Times article said a photograph that has been obtained by The Sunday Times 'appears to show shrapnel wounds to (Ms. Witheridge's) face.'

yes I don't know if you have the photos but if you look it appears that there is considerable areas of injury other than blow to the head. Including what looks like a bite mark. Extremely horrific but it tells a story of quiet a battle I suggest.

[loonodingle]

They are sending so called evidence for retesting so it can get lost for real this time, due to the British also now came forward with evidence which will most probably be a complete different result to what the Thais have ??

They are stuck in a corner and they know it... Best way out...get rid of their scapegoat evidence and the case gets thrown out of court....problem solved and face is saved. The saving of face to be the most important here.

Just a thought...[/quo

knowing how things can go I am surprised they haven't found them swing from a ligature before now. It's certainly concerning.

[cdnvic]

We're getting really tired of people using the report button to cause trouble for those they disagree with. From now on every frivolous or partisan report will result in your posting rights being removed for three days.

[spidermike007]

birma guys...

not cambodians but the problem is the same.

the 3 or 4 real culprits are still running free.

If the 2 on trial are genuinely not responsible for these crimes, then the real culprits should right now be finding a way to take up residence in a country without an extradition treaty to Thailand. That is, if the real culprits did not leave the island the following morning on the first available ferry.

Not necessary. The real culprits are above the law. The family is more powerful than the general. This has been shown over and over again. Do not upset the status quo.

[sartoric]

As stated very early on, I am confident these two will plead guilty. There will be no verdict from the court. Despite those that have an agenda to ignore reality for their own axes to grind to ignore facts and reality and focus on obscure implausible scenarios, the evidence is overwhelming these two did it. This is just a show for defense to see if there is any way to punch holes in the case and garner public support from the public before striking a deal that will hopefully spare the defendants life in the long run and have them one day see freedom again.

But they didn't plead guilty, they pleaded not guilty.

The evidence is looking very shaky to me, not the least bit overwhelming.

Ignore reality, axe to grind ? Look in mirror.

[JohnThailandJohn]

As stated very early on, I am confident these two will plead guilty. There will be no verdict from the court. Despite those that have an agenda to ignore reality for their own axes to grind to ignore facts and reality and focus on obscure implausible scenarios, the evidence is overwhelming these two did it. This is just a show for defense to see if there is any way to punch holes in the case and garner public support from the public before striking a deal that will hopefully spare the defendants life in the long run and have them one day see freedom again.

But they didn't plead guilty, they pleaded not guilty.

The evidence is looking very shaky to me, not the least bit overwhelming.

Ignore reality, axe to grind ? Look in mirror.

Most people do plead not guilty in most case initially. There lawyer just recently stated a guilty plea may still happen depending on evidence presented. My money has always been on the fact they will plead guilty and they are guilty and no mass cover-up and conspiracy is taking place to cover-up the crimes of somebody the police had no problem publicly announcing was a suspect as they did many people early on ... until the DNA matches with these two.

[bruceybonus]

http://news.sky.com/video/1338720/david-miller-seen-on-cctv

At 20 secs there is somebody who shakes hands with David, who has a VERY familiar walking style!!

[JLCrab]

birma guys...

not cambodians but the problem is the same.

the 3 or 4 real culprits are still running free.

If the 2 on trial are genuinely not responsible for these crimes, then the real culprits should right now be finding a way to take up residence in a country without an extradition treaty to Thailand. That is, if the real culprits did not leave the island the following morning on the first available ferry.

Not necessary. The real culprits are above the law. The family is more powerful than the general. This has been shown over and over again. Do not upset the status quo.

These people run bungalows on KT when there are 5 star resorts on Samui. If the proverbial crap would really ever hit the fan, I think some people would find out just how few real friends they have who would be willing to go down with them.

[smedly]

Somyot said the local police investigator, Lt. Col. Somsak Nurod, was vague in his testimony and therefore was misinterpreted. Somsak was no longer in possession of the DNA evidence since he collected it and then sent it to the Forensics Medicine Institute in Bangkok, Somyot said.

someone please tell me this is another statement lost in translation, how on earth is Somsak qualified to take any sample from a crime scene let alone a body - I am hoping he meant collect it from some qualified person that performed an official autopsy, I seem to remember the head of forensic science in Bangkok complaining at the time why they were not involved immediately in this investigation and called to the crime scene

[thailandchilli]

Funds needed by the MWRN to bring British crime scene and forensic experts over to Samui for the Koh Tao murder trial

KOH SAMUI: -- The Migrant Workers Rights Network (MWRN) is looking for support in order to raise funds urgently required to fly UK based crime scene investigators and forensic experts to Samui to appear as witnesses in September.

The defense team has said that it has received unspecified information and evidence from UK authorities that was ‘not consistent” with findings obtained from Thai authorities and used by the prosecution in the cases.

The defense team has asked the court for independent tests to be carried out on DNA however the vital DNA evidence that links the two defendants Zaw Lin and Wai Phyo to the body of one of the victims cannot be produced for retesting.

Pol Col Somkiat Kaewmook, deputy chief of Surat Thani provincial police, said: “Some forensic materials were used up in the testing process, which means they do not exist.”

The MWRN and the defense team have long believed that the two defendants are being used as scapegoats and continue to fight for justice for the two men, both 22 and working as barmen on Koh Tao at the time of the murders. Whether or not this is true remains to be seen.

-- Samui Times 2015-07-11

Thats was quick!!

Firstly £1,000 (50,000THB/1,500USD) is far short of the amount needed...

Secondly I would like to see the UK government to fund it, not to support the defence but to establish the true facts, which may assist the defence... or could assist the prosecution.

I would like to see this posted on every page. Justice in Thailand is expensive and may never happen but that does not stop the defense team or anybody else from fighting for it

[thailandchilli]

I very rarely post these days due to lack of time but I seem to remember something on this forum in the early days about the Hoe not being the murder weapon and was used after the event to remove "evidence" from the body. It would be interesting to know if the original suspect had a licenced (or otherwise ) firearm. Possibly the post mortem in the UK found some evidence of this. Just my two setang's worth.

This is my thought as well. And they will not let on before they bring it up in court. In the mean time the police and forensic officers are gong to dig themselves a very deep hole and the defence lawyers is herding them all in to it.

BANG!!! Get yourselves out of that then.

Just a theory.... but it could be....true I have no inside knowledge...

This is how I see it presently. The new important significant evidence provided to the defense team from the UK has now been revealed to be the autopsy reports. So if there is a grain of truth in this then it looks like the UK forensic experts are due in Sept to attend the trial and that may also be the time that the defense will reveal this. So we have some wait yet. In the mean time we continue to listen to the RTP's poorly written script.

[StealthEnergiser]

Thailand murder: Police officer casts doubt over DNA evidence

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-33457383

[StealthEnergiser]

Police believe a garden hoe which came from the resort and was found leaning against a tree near the crime scene, was used to bludgeon both victims.

After arriving at the crime scene around 5.40am O admitted removing the hoe from next to the tree and taking it back to a vegetable garden inside the resort where he worked.

Around half an hour later he said he was approached by the resort’s boss and a policeman who told him to put on a pair of gloves and return it to the scene, which he did.

- See more at: http://www.mizzima.com/news-regional/court-orders-retesting-evidence-koh-tao-murder-case#sthash.eETAqxuL.z6wn9MP5.dpuf