Koh Tao: Trial opens for 2 accused of killing British tourists

[zaphod reborn]

Evidence questions unresolved in Thai tourist murder trial

BANGKOK (AP) — Somyot said the local police investigator, Lt. Col. Somsak Nurod, was vague in his testimony and therefore was misinterpreted. Somsak was no longer in possession of the DNA evidence since he collected it and then sent it to the Forensics Medicine Institute in Bangkok, Somyot said. "Nothing is missing. It's a misunderstanding," the police chief said.

The problem with the testimony of Lt. Col. Somsak Nurod is actually the direct result of the sheer incompetence of the Thai lawyers who questioned him. I have sat through and testified in a number of trials in Thailand. Cross-examination of witnesses is unheard of. The lawyers never ask up follow-up questions in order to get clarification of testimony. Years of schooling in Thailand has engrained in them a total and complete inability to question witnesses to create anything resembling an adversarial justice system. Instead, they leave this task to the trial judges, who have no incentive to dig deeply for the truth.

[StealthEnergiser]

Police on Koh Tao tried to persuade a witness at the Witheridge-Miller crime scene into saying that he had wiped blood off an alleged murder weapon, according to Aung Myo Thant, a lawyer for the defence team.

Speaking to DVB on Thursday evening, the lawyer said the court heard testimony from a Burmese migrant named U Oh, who was a garbage collector on Sairee Beach during the period in September 2014 when British tourists Hannah Witheridge and David Miller were murdered.

“U Oh confirmed he was the owner of the garden hoe, which is alleged to have been used as the murder weapon in the case,” Aung Myo Thant said. “A police officer had earlier testified that the hoe was used to murder the victims, then the blood-stained tool was placed under a bag and discarded on the beach.”

But U Oh testified that the hoe was in the same place he left it the night before, the lawyer said.

“Also, police cajoled him to say he washed off the blood from the hoe. However, that is not what he told the judge. He said that he had not paid any attention to the hoe and was not aware of whether there was any blood on it or not.”

https://www.dvb.no/news/police-tried-to-manipulate-koh-tao-witness-court-told/54664

Something very suspect about this hoe and the location it was found in, this was brought up months ago as a rumour on Facebook but it now seems that the rumour has something to it judging by the above report of the witness testimony.

So the court has apparently given access to have the hoe tested again but what use is that when theres a strong possibility its already been tampered with.

It looks very much like they cleaned the hoe after the photo got leaked to the internet and then gave the forensics a cleaned hoe with no DNA .

It looks like we have the evidence has been sitting in front of our eyes maybe a reason a very small group of posters have been trying to steer us off course .

Maybe they know the person who leaked the photo's and are trying to help him if thats the case what a disgrace to see these 2 you boys could lose their lives.

Translaters getting death threats because the don't want this info getting out.

it stinks I hope andy hall has the info.

[stephenterry]

Sadly we shall never know... give the families some peace...

If one of my family had suffered what David and Hannah have endured, I would at the very least want justice to be served.

I would want the murderers and conspirators jailed for a long time following a professional investigation by the Thai law enforcement agencies.

This simply has not happened.

The family must know this and MUST act.

While I sympathise with your ideals, it is unlikely (unless there is a massive sea-change at the top of the Thai pyramid) that any further investigation would occur. Ask Kirsty Jones' mother who has campaigned for many years and got nowhere, not only with Thai officialdom, but also the FCO who refuse to release documents that could assist her in finding out the truth.

Money buys justice here, and it's already been paid. Hence, the best you can hope for is a mistrial. Then hire a band of vigilantes (and I'm not condoning any such action) to go to Koh Tao, rattle a few cages, and meter your own justice. Because, if you rely on law and order here, you're going to be long dead before that happens.

[JLCrab]

Milan, Mid-October, 2014: Say what?

[thailandchilli]

Sadly we shall never know... give the families some peace...

If one of my family had suffered what David and Hannah have endured, I would at the very least want justice to be served.

I would want the murderers and conspirators jailed for a long time following a professional investigation by the Thai law enforcement agencies.

This simply has not happened.

The family must know this and MUST act.

As someone on another forum said, this case is much bigger than just the families now.

[stephenterry]

Milan, Mid-October, 2014: Say what?

Okay, go and plant this phone in the bushes.

So this is the phone found in the bushes.

You have made a mistake, English is not easy to understand, is it.

[boomerangutang]

out to you General Payuth Chan (O) Cha - you really need to take a very big interest in this case as the damage to Thailand will be far reaching - something is very wrong with this case and if you want international credit pr even National credit then you need to get involved and start getting were it's at.....the truth, and hold those people who tried to distort justice accountable, show everyone that Thailand is turning a corner and will no longer tolerate these Mafia heads who ruin tourism with their greed and lies and MURDER

Interesting that you use future-tense "damage to Thailand will be far reaching." I might use present tense, as in; "damage to Thailand is far reaching...." though I agree, there's a lot more of this frame-up unraveling yet to come.

Retesting the DNA over again??? Hmmm...that would be the right thing to do....as long as the whole affair is not corrupted once again, like it was in the first place. Just saying. Cheers

It's interesting that the B2 and the defense are eager to get all the DNA re-examined. That's not the action of people who are hiding things. In contrast, Nomsod hid from police for several days - while he knew police were looking for him as being a prime suspect - early in the investigation. And when he was found, he refused to offer any sample for DNA testing. A while later, there was the press corps event where NS's DNA was tested. His dad, his lawyer, the police chief were all there. No one doubted what the result would be in such an orchestrated scene.

Now fastforward to the present. The same Chief of Police is being asked to provide DNA. Would you trust the veracity of those samples? ....particularly the samples he passes to the new examiners labeled "DNA taken from Hannah" ? If so, you're a lot more trusting in the integrity of the RTP than I am.

That's why justice needs the British coroner to step out from the shadows.

What is there for the British coroner to be afraid of? Why doesn't she publish what she knows when it could help the victims families avoid more pain and anguish? I just don't get it.

Sorry to say, it's political. Similar to the Kirsty Jones botched investigation (young farang woman raped and murdered in Chiang Mai, 2000), British officials are withholding crucial forensic data because they don't want to embarrass Thai officialdom. As we know, police and army brass, all the way up to the Thai PM, have come out publicly and indicated how badly they want the Burmese to be convicted - even going to far to say things like, "a Thai person couldn't have done this" and "this has been a perfect investigation." If Brit experts exposed flaws in the Thai investigation, it would be a slap in the face to Thai officialdom.

Already, top Thai officials are cementing their bosom-buddies relationship with China: a Chinese financed/built railway network, 3 submarines, and a lot more. Brits don't want to further alienate themselves from lucrative Thai contracts by causing Thai officialdom to lose face.

One big irony is, if one or more top Thai officials do a runner, when disciplinary proceedings take place, if/when it becomes plain that there was deliberate scewing of evidence - guess which countries they'll run to? Yup, as has happened in the past, they'll probably abscond to the US or Britain. The chief cop who deliberately skewed evidence in another farang murder/rape case (in Bkk) - who was about to be disciplined for his illegal actions, emptied his Thai bank accounts and took a beeline for Miami, where he is now - untouchable, of course.

[6NS]

I see Sean Mcanna has changed his name. The guilty parties(IMO) The Island mafia were wanting to kill him, I wonder why? He should on the stand.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a5_Pkc3Ja7U

My heart is so thumping now.

Everyone must listen to these songs he's written and singing. Watch all the videos.

I'm without words.

[thailandchilli]

A hoe, a shoe and a plastic bag are the only items that can be retested for DNA, everything else is finished.

At the end of the third day of the trial the judge said the police had informed him that samples gathered on the island were "finished" and they could not be analysed again.

11th July BBC video report http://www.bbc.com/news/world-33492790

[impulse]

As someone on another forum said, this case is much bigger than just the families now.

It should be. Sadly, it will end up just like 1000 other horrific stories in 100 tourist traps all over the world- forgotten in the next news cycle.

Sure, the folks already tied to Thailand will pay attention. But next year's tourist- cares more about what time the bars will close, the price of a hotel, and whether they really cancelled the full moon parties.

That's not the way it should be. Lives and deaths should mean something.

[BoristheBlade]

Sadly we shall never know... give the families some peace...

If one of my family had suffered what David and Hannah have endured, I would at the very least want justice to be served.

I would want the murderers and conspirators jailed for a long time following a professional investigation by the Thai law enforcement agencies.

This simply has not happened.

The family must know this and MUST act.

While I sympathise with your ideals, it is unlikely (unless there is a massive sea-change at the top of the Thai pyramid) that any further investigation would occur. Ask Kirsty Jones' mother who has campaigned for many years and got nowhere, not only with Thai officialdom, but also the FCO who refuse to release documents that could assist her in finding out the truth.

Money buys justice here, and it's already been paid. Hence, the best you can hope for is a mistrial. Then hire a band of vigilantes (and I'm not condoning any such action) to go to Koh Tao, rattle a few cages, and meter your own justice. Because, if you rely on law and order here, you're going to be long dead before that happens.

I totally agree.

but what a fitting and lasting tribute to Hannah and David it would be, if the public outcry brought real change to the Thai justice system.

The General who seized power stated that he wanted to bring real change to Thailand, to eliminate corruption.

The General is now Prime minister, Sir now you have your chance. Show the world you are going to make Thailand a fair and honest nation.

[JLCrab]

Milan, Mid-October, 2014: Say what?

Okay, go and plant this phone in the bushes.

So this is the phone found in the bushes.

You have made a mistake, English is not easy to understand, is it.

Well it may be what the UK PM didn't say to the TH PM regarding KT is: "Guess what surprise we have in store for you!"

[Johnny S]

I have never seen such a pathetic bunch of comments on this case. You can hate me for this but most of you write such rubbish. Forget to show trial, forget the evidence, lost or not. Forget the competence of the Police. Forget that the British Police have not issued an official comment ( Politics ) Just talk to the local Thais on the Islands. They know who committed the evil deeds but will not tell you for fear. The local Thai families rule these Islands, not the Police, Not the local or national government not anyone but the locals. Stay with them and you have nothing to fear but cross them and your dead. Worse thing is that the British Government does nothing to help but of course they must get permission of the United States before speaking. Also we have no right to criticize Thai Justice system. We are guests in their country and if you dont like it go home.

Don't think anyone hate you ... You just take care of your bar or dive business on Koh Toilet and let Evil take its course ...

Enjoy your Chang with the local killer(s) - It will happen again on that Island of Death

[kiwikeith]

When you spend time on a little Thai island, as in a good few months rather than a couple of weeks, you can see that they are run by a select few, in a certain way.

For the families of the deceased now the language barrier must be hugely frustrating.

The families just want closure. As any grieving parent does.

I know this sort of thing must happen the world over but it's really distressing to watch unfurl before our very eyes.

It is so blatantly obvious that this is a farce, and very painfull for the parents, however If I was one of the parents I would be shouting out loud for the Burmese boys defence, why let innocent boys die for your loved one as well, dont they understand they have mothers and fathers as well.

There have been several cases where parents stuck it to the Thai police, one was in pattaya where a Thai girl had her New Zealand boyfrind executed on a motorbike and she walked untill the parents came to Thailand and the truth came out and now shes still in the Hilton.

Another victory was when 60 minutes swab sampled the hotel room in Chiang Mai in secret and discovered deadly toxins in the air con filters and on matteress's however nobody took a rap for it but the truth and cause of death embaressed the Thai

police who tried to portray it as food poisening.

The parents should suck in some deep breath and face up to the Media or 2 more innocent boys will die and be on their conscience as well for the rest of their lives.

They I am sorry to say would have power if they stood up instead of waffleing along with this sick joke/ jacked up littany of lies and garbage.

[boomerangutang]

As stated very early on, I am confident these two will plead guilty. There will be no verdict from the court. Despite those that have an agenda to ignore reality for their own axes to grind to ignore facts and reality and focus on obscure implausible scenarios, the evidence is overwhelming these two did it. This is just a show for defense to see if there is any way to punch holes in the case and garner public support from the public before striking a deal that will hopefully spare the defendants life in the long run and have them one day see freedom again.

That is how I saw it to John. But now I am not so sure anymore. With all this controversy surround this case I am not so sure a deal may be even offered now.

The way I see it, and only my humble opinion, if a Plea Bargain was made now, the controversy would still exist. With strong evidence, this could play out in court, still get a conviction, and perhaps remove some doubt. Not all! But some! But???

The defendents didn't venture to plea bargain earlier, when the RTP and prosecution and PM kept crowing about what a strong case they had against them. Why would defendents and their attorneys venture to plea bargain now? In case you haven't noticed, the prosecutions' case is self-destructing day by day. When your opposing team is kicking own-goals, you're not going to concede defeat, are you?

[6NS]

I see Sean Mcanna has changed his name. The guilty parties(IMO) The Island mafia were wanting to kill him, I wonder why? He should on the stand.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a5_Pkc3Ja7U

My heart is so thumping now.

Everyone must listen to these songs he's written and singing. Watch all the videos.

I'm without words.

I think I get it now. This can not be the Sean from the Island of Ko Tao that fateful night.

Wow, I was beside myself there.

[Si Thea01]

out to you General Payuth Chan (O) Cha - you really need to take a very big interest in this case as the damage to Thailand will be far reaching - something is very wrong with this case and if you want international credit pr even National credit then you need to get involved and start getting were it's at.....the truth, and hold those people who tried to distort justice accountable, show everyone that Thailand is turning a corner and will no longer tolerate these Mafia heads who ruin tourism with their greed and lies and MURDER

Prayut is serving his masters well and some of them are likely to be connected to the criminal hierarchy of this island as indicated by the change of investigators at the beginning of this case. Then I suggest that in the view of the PM everything is AOK. He is also the chief distorter of justice.

We often use incidents such as these awful crimes as the basis for the demise of tourism in Thailand, Thai tourism may have taken a hit recently but more likely due to economic events in the world.

People after a relaxing and value for money break probably don't exercise a social conscience, if we were to do so would we ever visit a developing nation.

Have a look at You Tube some time the kids are crazy about Thailand video after video of kids having fun in the sun. Why wouldn't they be at their age did I listen to old farts talking politics and screaming for justice, of course not there was too much fun to be had.

OK I'm rambling a bit, I believe the prosecutions case will fail and the B2 will go home and that will be the end of it.

Why are were going off on this tangent? What in the hell is the relevance of bringing the PM into the equation? Who are the masters he is serving and how are they likely to be connected to the criminal hierarchy on this island? Maybe you should choose what you say very carefully, I thought it was against forum rules to defame someone, which you're dong a pretty good job of but then it seems you, like many on here, post defamatory remarks whilst hiding behind the cloak of anonymity.

You know, despite whether one likes him or not, he just cannot win, If he get's involved, he's accused of political intervention or some other nefarious activity or even criminal association, or if he doesn't, he's defamed and criticised for not taking action. Do you and a few others on here have a problem sticking with the topic or is your mindset so limited you cannot and just need to spout irrelevant aspects to further some agenda you clearly have.

At least you last sentence contains some honesty, the first 5 words, the rest, your opinion, of which I neither agree or disagree with, I'm just one who is prepared to wait and continue reading the many satirical posts dreamt up by the experts.

[Just1Voice]

I had a question about the forensics, but what the hell, it would be a waste of time on here.

[Si Thea01]

I see Sean Mcanna has changed his name. The guilty parties(IMO) The Island mafia were wanting to kill him, I wonder why? He should on the stand.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a5_Pkc3Ja7U

My heart is so thumping now.

Everyone must listen to these songs he's written and singing. Watch all the videos.

I'm without words.

I think I get it now. This can not be the Sean from the Island of Ko Tao that fateful night.

Wow, I was beside myself there.

You're without words. You would be the only poster on here to admit that, then you disappoint by posting more words. You are telling a little fib I think.

[boomerangutang]

I thought the court ordered the re-testing of the evidence...

It did in April, then put it off in June until July 8. Then put it off a day - then another day...

Now, it appears the court is allowing re-testing of evidence, but (surprise!) is putting parameters on what evidence. The unmentioned no-no, by the court, is 'don't test any DNA or anything connected to Headman's family or friends' - even though two of those people were initial prime suspects, and hundreds of thousands of Thais and farang still believe they should be looked at.

if so, then it has to follow the chain of evidence as well, which is to prove that it had not been subjected to any outside interference or contamination, then the actual testing to determine that the DNA is from whom it is alleged, and that it was obtained, legally. But now you have brought back the old tampering with evidence scenario suggesting that they may be found guilty, no matter what. I think the court is being fair and impartial and is showing this by allowing a defence request to take place. But others will say this is just for show, won't they?

When Nomsod's DNA was tested (and I believe his DNA was typed correctly) officials quickly asserted there was no match with DNA from the crime scene. Similarly, a brief time after the B2 were at the 'safe house' the same Thai officials claimed the B2 DNA matched. So convenient. Yet, when seekers of truth want to ascertain whether the samples labeled as 'DNA taken from Hannah' is what they're claimed to be - Thai officials are befuddled and obscure.

The court may be sincere in trying to be objective, but the RTP are up to their same smoke and mirrors, dimestore tricks - and their ruses are already starting to be uncloaked.

Note: immediately after Nomsod's DNA was typed, RTP declared they would not share the finding with Brit authorities. When asked why, by Thai press corps, RTP responded: "The British already know we're doing a perfect job. We don't need to send them Nomsod's DNA." One wonders what other evidence Thai cops aren't sharing with British experts.

[6NS]

I see Sean Mcanna has changed his name. The guilty parties(IMO) The Island mafia were wanting to kill him, I wonder why? He should on the stand.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a5_Pkc3Ja7U

My heart is so thumping now.

Everyone must listen to these songs he's written and singing. Watch all the videos.

I'm without words.

I think I get it now. This can not be the Sean from the Island of Ko Tao that fateful night.

Wow, I was beside myself there.

You're without words. You would be the only poster on here to admit that, then you disappoint by posting more words. You are telling a little fib I think.

I didn't start it,

I just got sucked in.

Go back and look.

And then listen to the singers words.

[boomerangutang]

Sean's an ok musician and songwriter. Tho he could enunciate better. Perhaps it's the Kurt Cobain influence of slurring words.

I was trying to gauge whether the song was perhaps a commentary on the Ko Tao crime, but couldn't decipher his brand of English.

[thailandchilli]

I see Sean Mcanna has changed his name. The guilty parties(IMO) The Island mafia were wanting to kill him, I wonder why? He should on the stand.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a5_Pkc3Ja7U

My heart is so thumping now.

Everyone must listen to these songs he's written and singing. Watch all the videos.

I'm without words.

I think I get it now. This can not be the Sean from the Island of Ko Tao that fateful night.

Wow, I was beside myself there.

You're without words. You would be the only poster on here to admit that, then you disappoint by posting more words. You are telling a little fib I think.

What was it you said in an earlier post "I'm just one who is prepared to wait and continue reading the many satirical posts dreamt up by the experts."

Sounds like you've now joined in the many satirical posts you apparently identified.

[StealthEnergiser]

I see Sean Mcanna has changed his name. The guilty parties(IMO) The Island mafia were wanting to kill him, I wonder why? He should on the stand.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a5_Pkc3Ja7U

My heart is so thumping now.

Everyone must listen to these songs he's written and singing. Watch all the videos.

I'm without words.

I think I get it now. This can not be the Sean from the Island of Ko Tao that fateful night.

Wow, I was beside myself there.

You're without words. You would be the only poster on here to admit that, then you disappoint by posting more words. You are telling a little fib I think.

Bring him back now holes are showing in the charges he can do jail time for lying under oath.

[brewsterbudgen]

As someone on another forum said, this case is much bigger than just the families now.

It should be. Sadly, it will end up just like 1000 other horrific stories in 100 tourist traps all over the world- forgotten in the next news cycle.

Sure, the folks already tied to Thailand will pay attention. But next year's tourist- cares more about what time the bars will close, the price of a hotel, and whether they really cancelled the full moon parties.

That's not the way it should be. Lives and deaths should mean something.

It's a tragedy and a horrific crime, but life has to go on. Thailand has had its fair share of tragedies (the tsunami, horrific acts of terrorism on a regular basis in the South, hundreds killed on the streets of Bangkok in riots, regular military coups, daily road deaths) yet tourism continues. I doubt this crime will have any effect, especially when compared to the other horrors taking place globally, like what happened in Tunisia.

[6NS]

Sean's an ok musician and songwriter. Tho he could enunciate better. Perhaps it's the Kurt Cobain influence of slurring words.

I was trying to gauge whether the song was perhaps a commentary on the Ko Tao crime, but couldn't decipher his brand of English.

Hello Boomerangutang,

But this song righter is not the Sean from the Ko Tao murders, is he?

Did you listen to all the songs? The third song!!! I am taken back.

I hope this song righter is not the Sean from Ko Tao.

[newnative]

From the get go these 2 boys were unlikely suspects in my opinion. But excellent patsies being poor, uneducated, and with no influence. I have little doubt their so-called confessions were coerced. Put a plastic bag over my head and nearly suffocate me and I'll confess to anything, too. It seems the police have attempted to get the owner of the hoe to lie to the court. If they are capable of doing that, then all the so-called evidence is now even more questionable. And, it was all very tainted even before this latest. To me, it's a complete waste of time to argue about re-testing the dna evidence. Why re-test something that may have been planted by the police in the first place? What does that get you? Certainly no closer to the truth.

[eliotness]

There are a few points I think about:

Why is there never been a mention of the girl screaming, surely if attacked she would have screamed ? No one yet has reported hearing a scream.

It has been suggested that a gun was used. The beach was near tourist accommodation, but there has been no reports of anyone hearing gunshots. Of course a silencer could have been used, but this would mean the murder was planned well in advance, or maybe the sound of gunshots is a regular occurrence on the Island.

It has been alleged that the hoe may have been used to remove/destroy flesh from around the bullet wound. That might explain the horrific injuries around the girls neck and the huge amount of blood shown on the hoe. I would expect the British autopsy to shed more light on this.

The horrible pictures of the two bodies shown on the internet showed several deep narrow wounds on the bodies that would indicate knife wounds rather than wounds inflicted by a hoe. It has also been stated in earlier posts that the male had "defensive" wounds, indicating that a fight had taken place. A knife is much more useful in a close quarter fight than a cumbersome hoe. If the guys from the local "mafia" were involved them I would certainly expect them to carry knives and maybe even guns. Heck even in the backwoods of Thailand the local thugs have knives and guns aplenty.

The cowardly nature of mafia type gangs would mean that the leader would not "get his hands dirty" and his henchmen would have overpowered and killed the male. That might explain the earlier report that 3 were involved and 3 different sperm types were found in and on the girls body.

If the condom belonged to the British male tourist, then the chances are he bought it in England. There was a story a while ago on TVF trying to be humorous about Thai vs Farang condoms. If the condom could be proved to have come from the UK, or not, it could be significant.

The Scottish lad who was an initial suspect was caught on CCTV fleeing into a 7/11 and asking for help as he was being followed by 2 scary looking guys who allegedly worked for the "big boss". He must be a vital witness in this case and have the defence got a statement from him they're holding back ? Where DNA samples ever taken from those 2 men.

The B2 are supposed to have bought L&M cigs, but a report I saw earlier on TVF stated that of the 3 cigs ends found, 2 were Malboro and 1 L&M. Furthermore there was a report earlier that the girl's DNA had been found on 1 cig even though she didn't smoke. Any walk on a beach in Thailand will find fag ends in abundance . Because of the time difference between the murders taking place and the arrival of the police what influence did the tide have on the murder scene ?

The checking of the son's DNA within an 8 hour period is just not credible. How can this be allowed ?

If the B2 did commit the murders then why didn't they flee the island immediately and why did they allow their DNA to be tested in the initial check ? - which actually cleared them. Furthermore were they that stupid to dispose of one of the phones in the bin outside of where they lived.

There are too many questions unanswered. I hope most questions will be answered during the trial, but like many posters I have a very bad feeling about this and I feel so so sorry for the families of the 2 victims of this horrible crime.

[boomerangutang]

There are still 2 more days for prosecution in July: 22nd and 28th

Then 5 days for prosecution in late August: 18, 19, 20, 21 and 27th

Then defense gets 5 days in September (half as many as prosecution): 1st, 2nd, 22, 24, 25

Judges' decision: 26 Sept, one year and 11 days after the crime. By that time, the B2 will have been shackled and in prison a year. If found guilty, there will be appeals and no-bail conditions will be maintained, so the B2 could wind up spending years in prison for a crime they likely didn't commit.

[Rykbanlor]

Of course it's the same Sean. Clearly.