Koh Tao murders: 2 DNA profiles from alleged murder weapon do not match defendants' DNA

[metisdead]

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Andy Hall‏@Atomicalandy

Reminder Koh Tao murder trial will re-commence for 4 final defense witness days of 18 day scheduled hearings 22-25 Sept at Koh Samui court.

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Andy Hall‏@Atomicalandy

The defense team will call expert witnesses concerning DNA, torture, crime scene investigation and migrant worker Koh Tao situation/policy

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Andy Hall‏@Atomicalandy

Koh Tao murder case defendants Wai Phyo/Zaw Linn yet to complete/start their testimony 2 Samui court, international experts still remain too

Since the trial will recommence on September 22, and to put a rest to the usual round and round speculation and baiting posts, this topic is now in recess until the trial reconvenes on 22 September.

[webfact]

NEW TOPIC

Forensic team to testify in Koh Tao trial

Full story: http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/857515-forensic-team-to-testify-in-koh-tao-murder-trial/

/Admin

[Scott]

HELP OUR BOYS — Rights group seeks govt support for Koh Tao murder suspects

A special investigations team representing two Myanmar migrant workers on trial for murder in Thailand have called on the Myanmar government to exert diplomatic pressure on Thailand to prevent a miscarriage of justice. Zaw Lin and Win Zaw Tun are accused of killing two British tourists on the island of Koh Tao in September 2014.

“The defence witnesses have already proved in court that the total lack of DNA evidence means the two Myanmar nationals are innocent,” said U Htoo Chit, a member of the special investigation team, which is comprised of Thai lawyers and Myanmar human rights activists.

http://globalnewlightofmyanmar.com/help-our-boys-rights-group-seeks-govt-support-for-koh-tao-murder-suspects/

[metisdead]

Burmese Investigators Urge Public to Monitor Koh Tao Trial

RANGOON — Two migrant workers accused of a grisly dual murder on a Thai island are innocent and should be cleared of all charges, a team of investigators representing the Burmese government told reporters in Rangoon on Thursday, urging the public to monitor the case as it continues later this month.

Zaw Lin and Win Zaw Htun were arrested in late 2014 after the mutilated bodies of two British tourists—Hannah Witheridge and David Miller—were discovered on a beach in Koh Tao, southern Thailand. A postmortem examination revealed that Witheridge had been raped.

The gruesome murder and subsequent trial has raised questions about Thailand’s safety as a tourist destination, the competence of its police force and its treatment of migrant workers.

Read more here: http://www.irrawaddy.org/burma/burmese-investigators-urge-public-to-monitor-koh-tao-trial.html

[Johnniey]

The scapes will be unscaped but no goats will EVER be found. More scapes maybe. The family responsible are far too high to be prosecuted.

It's obvious for me as I've lived here 30 years but in case you didn't know apporximately 200,000 people in Thailand are ABOVE the law - understand?

[BritTim]

The Burmese kids have been locked up for a year

In the early morning of 2nd Oct 2014, exactly ONE YEAR AGO now, two young 21 year old Myanmar migrants working on Koh Tao island in the Gulf of Thailand were arrested on suspicion of the 15th Sept 2014 horrific murders of UK nationals Hannah Witheridge and David Miller, as well as for rape, theft and immigration offences.

https://m.facebook.com/andy.hall.3110/posts/10153246438505677

[BritTim]

@IanYarwoodLaw Sep 29

Ian Yarwood ‏@IanYarwood_Law Sep 29

#KohTao MURDER:THAILAND DECIDES NOT TO SUBJECT ITS DNA CHAIN OF CUSTODY DOCUMENTS TO SCRUTINY BY INTERNATIONAL EXPERT

Ian Yarwood ‏@IanYarwood_Law Sep 29

@IanYarwood_Law @Atomicalandy @nakhonct One reasonable inference is the chain of custody documents do not support police case.

Ian Yarwood ‏@IanYarwood_Law Sep 29

@IanYarwood_Law Second reasonable inference is that the police & prosecutor know this especially in view of other "evidence" that collapsed

https://twitter.com/IanYarwood_Law

[Johnniey]

@IanYarwoodLaw Sep 29

Ian Yarwood ‏@IanYarwood_Law Sep 29

#KohTao MURDER:THAILAND DECIDES NOT TO SUBJECT ITS DNA CHAIN OF CUSTODY DOCUMENTS TO SCRUTINY BY INTERNATIONAL EXPERT

Ian Yarwood ‏@IanYarwood_Law Sep 29

@IanYarwood_Law @Atomicalandy @nakhonct One reasonable inference is the chain of custody documents do not support police case.

Ian Yarwood ‏@IanYarwood_Law Sep 29

@IanYarwood_Law Second reasonable inference is that the police & prosecutor know this especially in view of other "evidence" that collapsed

https://twitter.com/IanYarwood_Law

Everybody knows it. Doesn't mean squiddely dot.

[thailandchilli]

Thai Autopsy Bite Marks ++

Much as the prosecution and witnesses have dismally failed to provide any credible evidence to back up their claims of DNA, phone, confessions etc. The same can be said for the poor Thai autopsy report and its findings. Especially in light of the UK report dismissing the bite mark and highlighting zero evidence of rape.

I took a look at the procedure that a pathologist needs to follow if he finds a bite mark along with a few other significant areas that a professional investigation would include and we can see exactly why the Thai report is completely uncredible:

Adequate photographs are crucial for thorough documentation of autopsy findings:

• Photographs should be in colour (transparency or negative/ print), in focus, adequately illuminated, and taken by a professional or good quality camera. Each photograph should contain a ruled reference scale, an identifying case name or number, and a sample of standard grey. A description of the camera (including the lens “f-number” and focal length), film and the lighting system must be included in the autopsy report. If more than one camera is utilized, the identifying information should be recorded for each. Photographs should also include information indicating which camera took each picture, if more than one camera is used. The identity of the person taking the photographs should be recorded;
• Serial photographs reflecting the course of the external examination must be included. Photograph the body prior to and following undressing, washing or cleaning and shaving;
• Supplement close-up photographs with distant and/or immediate range photographs to permit orientation and identification of the close-up photographs;
• Photographs should be comprehensive in scope and must confirm the presence of all demonstrable signs of injury or disease commented upon in the autopsy report;
• Identifying facial features should be portrayed (after washing or cleaning the body), with photographs of a full frontal aspect of the face, and right and left profiles of the face with hair in normal position and with hair retracted, if necessary, to reveal the ears;

Before the clothing is removed, examine the body and the clothing. Photograph the clothed body. Record any jewellery present; The clothing should be carefully removed over a clean sheet or body pouch. Let the clothing dry if it is bloody or wet. Describe the clothing that is removed and label it in a permanent fashion. Either place the clothes in the custody of a responsible person or keep them, as they may be useful as evidence or for identification.

Note any bite marks; these should be photographed to record the dental pattern, swabbed for saliva testing (before the body is washed) and excised for microscopic examination. Bite marks should also be analysed by a forensic odontologist, if possible.

Photographs should be comprehensive in scope and must confirm the presence of all demonstrable signs of injury or disease commented upon in the autopsy report;

http://www.forensicpathologyonline.com/e-book/autopsy

Also in the above document it lays out some basic but essential procedures that should occur before an autopsy, the AC bar comes to mind along with the first rescue workers at the scene:

Obtain information from scene witnesses, including those who last saw the decedent alive, and when, where and under what circumstances. Interview any emergency medical personnel who may have had contact with the body;

Evidence that must be saved includes:

a. All foreign objects, including projectiles, projectile fragments, pellets, knives and fibres. Projectiles must be subjected to ballistic analysis;
b. All clothes and personal effects of the deceased, worn by or in the possession of the deceased at the time of death

Edited October 2, 2015 by thailandchilli

[StealthEnergiser]

[StealthEnergiser]

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Andy Hall‏@Atomicalandy

Today submitted documents via Koh Tao defence lawyers to Koh Samui court request police investigators are called to court to explain conduct

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Andy Hall‏@Atomicalandy

Conduct in question relates to certain police officers unacceptable/unprofessional use of social media including posting crime scene photos

[StealthEnergiser]

we are unable to link this story but worth a look if you google "the-chilling-effect-koh-tao-suspects"

[Mooner]

@IanYarwoodLaw Sep 29

Ian Yarwood ‏@IanYarwood_Law Sep 29

#KohTao MURDER:THAILAND DECIDES NOT TO SUBJECT ITS DNA CHAIN OF CUSTODY DOCUMENTS TO SCRUTINY BY INTERNATIONAL EXPERT

Ian Yarwood ‏@IanYarwood_Law Sep 29

@IanYarwood_Law @Atomicalandy @nakhonct One reasonable inference is the chain of custody documents do not support police case.

Ian Yarwood ‏@IanYarwood_Law Sep 29

@IanYarwood_Law Second reasonable inference is that the police & prosecutor know this especially in view of other "evidence" that collapsed

https://twitter.com/IanYarwood_Law

Everybody knows it. Doesn't mean squiddely dot.

Amazingly not everyone!! The RTP supporters will be spinning harder than a Russian ballerina to explain this one.

[Fat Haggis]

The crime scene management was the first issue that has come to haunt the cops as it was never done properly.

The Judges themselves must be aware that procedures were not carried out correctly.

The crime scene and the bodies themselves were not subject to forensic pathologists, which Dr. Porntip highlighted on several occasions, it would have taken a couple of hours to get one on scene, why didn't the coppers request one, unless they already know that an "outside agency" would be all over it like a tramp on chips, and thier "theory/stories/version of events" would possibly have been blown out of the water, pretty much like it has been already.

The decision to not produce the chain of custody documents must also have the judges question why not?

If this was as watertight as the police and the prosecution claimed, they would have been producing these documents in triplicate and ramming it down the defence's throat.

Just like the DNA match, it's nothing more than RTP hearsay, no chain of custody documents, is really the final unraveling of the charade of a watertight case, I feel sorry for the families of the victims as whatever "evidence" it was that they felt comfortable in releasing theses statements with regards to the accused having a case to answer to, with compelling and overwhelming evidence to support this.

Edited October 2, 2015 by Fat Haggis

[BritTim]

Follow

Andy Hall‏@Atomicalandy

Today submitted documents via Koh Tao defence lawyers to Koh Samui court request police investigators are called to court to explain conduct

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Andy Hall‏@Atomicalandy

Conduct in question relates to certain police officers unacceptable/unprofessional use of social media including posting crime scene photos

I am sure Andy is better informed than I am, and this contradicts a speculation of mine. I had wondered if those posts and photos were actually evidence of a faction in the police helping to reveal the truth. Would we have known what we do about changes to the crime scene without those photos? Shows how "logical" inferences are not always accurate ones.

[Dogmatix]

Follow

Andy Hall‏@Atomicalandy

Today submitted documents via Koh Tao defence lawyers to Koh Samui court request police investigators are called to court to explain conduct

Follow

Andy Hall‏@Atomicalandy

Conduct in question relates to certain police officers unacceptable/unprofessional use of social media including posting crime scene photos

I am sure Andy is better informed than I am, and this contradicts a speculation of mine. I had wondered if those posts and photos were actually evidence of a faction in the police helping to reveal the truth. Would we have known what we do about changes to the crime scene without those photos? Shows how "logical" inferences are not always accurate ones.

Ironically the public posting of photos has probably been quite helpful to the defence, particularly as police declined to give them any official crime scene photographs at all. Since the crime scene was not sealed off and the police allowed their mates like Mon to wander all over it, it is hard to say whether the photographs that ended up on sites like Liveleak and Bloodandgore etc were taken by police officers, their friends, or random members of the public.

[StealthEnergiser]

Follow

Andy Hall‏@Atomicalandy

Today submitted documents via Koh Tao defence lawyers to Koh Samui court request police investigators are called to court to explain conduct

Follow

Andy Hall‏@Atomicalandy

Conduct in question relates to certain police officers unacceptable/unprofessional use of social media including posting crime scene photos

I am sure Andy is better informed than I am, and this contradicts a speculation of mine. I had wondered if those posts and photos were actually evidence of a faction in the police helping to reveal the truth. Would we have known what we do about changes to the crime scene without those photos? Shows how "logical" inferences are not always accurate ones.

This looks like a good tactic to me as the RTB have said due to budget restraints they couldn't supply many photo's to the defence .

Andy may now be able to show photo's that the RTP didn't want to show and more evidence of crime scene manipulation.

[thailandchilli]

The Burmese kids have been locked up for a year

In the early morning of 2nd Oct 2014, exactly ONE YEAR AGO now, two young 21 year old Myanmar migrants working on Koh Tao island in the Gulf of Thailand were arrested on suspicion of the 15th Sept 2014 horrific murders of UK nationals Hannah Witheridge and David Miller, as well as for rape, theft and immigration offences.

https://m.facebook.com/andy.hall.3110/posts/10153246438505677

Mr. Hall. there are so many of you working so very hard and personally sacrificing so very much with no personal benefits to yourself or any financial compensation for all the hard work all of you have done. it is truly inspiring and courageous efforts by all of you! I will never forget the weekend when you and Aye Mar Cho were exhausted from working your other full time jobs in bangkok and had to take the grueling bus trip down here AND back to Bangkok, because at that time, the funds in the defense fund were so minimal, to work on this case because it's so important for the lives and families of the accused, Read more here https://www.facebook.com/andy.hall.3110/posts/10153246438505677?comment_id=10153246490985677&offset=0&total_comments=31&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R9%22%7D

[boomerangutang]

Still no forensics on David to speak of. Only cursory and probably inaccurate cursory findings by Thai forensics, and none by Brit forensics. If Jersey (David's home) doesn't have a forensic expert, then they should make (or should have made) some other provision for an autopsy for him. I still can't banish the sight of two of Mon's buddies ('Stingray Man' and 'Big Ears cop') proudly sporting shark tooth rings in photos, just prior to the crime. If David's wounds were all caused by the blunt cement-encrusted hoe, then I'm Elvis.

Not the RTP, not the prosecution, not the judges, not Brit forensics, not even the defense team are trying to find the real perps in this case. They're all dancing around the issue and trying to focus everything on the scapegoats. I can understand the defense doing what they have to do (primarily find discrepancies between Thai and Brit forensics), but come on folks, what's most important in this case?!

The most important things, in my opinion, are:

>>> getting justice for Hannah and David,

>>> some sort of closure for the victims' families

>>> finding who really did the crime

>>> trying to make KT and other Thai beach resorts less dangerous.

All those factors seem incidental or unimportant to RTP, prosecution and the court - judging by their actions and words.

[BritTim]

Still no forensics on David to speak of. Only cursory and probably inaccurate cursory findings by Thai forensics, and none by Brit forensics. If Jersey (David's home) doesn't have a forensic expert, then they should make (or should have made) some other provision for an autopsy for him. I still can't banish the sight of two of Mon's buddies ('Stingray Man' and 'Big Ears cop') proudly sporting shark tooth rings in photos, just prior to the crime. If David's wounds were all caused by the blunt cement-encrusted hoe, then I'm Elvis.

Not the RTP, not the prosecution, not the judges, not Brit forensics, not even the defense team are trying to find the real perps in this case. They're all dancing around the issue and trying to focus everything on the scapegoats. I can understand the defense doing what they have to do (primarily find discrepancies between Thai and Brit forensics), but come on folks, what's most important in this case?!

The most important things, in my opinion, are:

>>> getting justice for Hannah and David,

>>> some sort of closure for the victims' families

>>> finding who really did the crime

>>> trying to make KT and other Thai beach resorts less dangerous.

All those factors seem incidental or unimportant to RTP, prosecution and the court - judging by their actions and words.

The UK response at top levels is disappointing, but not unexpected. I am still surprised, but delighted, that the Norfolk coroner, recognizing that the Thai forensic report on Hannah was falsified in important respects, gave the defense access to the Home Office pathologist report on Hannah. I doubt the Norfolk coroner has a copy of the Thai or UK Home Office pathologist report on David. I have no idea if the defense tried to approach the Jersey coroner for David's postmortem report.

It is not the job of the court (prosecution, defense or judges) to try to collect evidence against those not being tried.

I do think, if they have the power, the judges should insist on a full list of remaining reference samples used in alleged DNA testing. They should further insist on transparent retesting, independent of the RTP or defense. Depending on the results, the judges should issue a strongly worded statement indicating the need for a full investigation without the involvement of the original investigators (especially the local Region 8 mob).

The defense has already demanded a proper investigation, but they have no real power or influence to get one started.

If there were ever semen samples, and they still exist containing the Burmese kid's DNA, the prosecution should submit them for transparent, independent retesting to bolster their case. Anyone wanting to bet they will has a taker (me).

I am extremely pessimistic that the real murderers will ever be prosecuted. Only determined action from the top levels of the Thai government could make that happen, and there is no money in it for them.

[smedly]

this case needs the PM to intervene, he got himself involved early on when he said the police had a solid case (that is what he was told and I believe him), that has turned out to be untrue, I trust the PM in most things to be a man that doesn't tolerate any bull and in this case unless he does something very quickly he will find that he endorsed a complete farce and will lose face - time to get the DSI involved and get to the bottom of why this has caused such a blight on Thailand and an international outcry

I was going to say "Thailands reputation is in question" but I couldn't write that because you have to get one of those first and this is not how to do that, not the current PM's fault but he is in the driving seat to make changes - out to you PM Ptayuth Chan (O) Cha - get involved and rattle a few heads and get to the bottom of this, the world is watching, do the right thing

and OT comment - your single gateway is a nonsense idea and will hurt Thailand and it's IT infrastructure, Thailand moving forward not backward please

[smedly]

The crime scene management was the first issue that has come to haunt the cops as it was never done properly.

The Judges themselves must be aware that procedures were not carried out correctly.

The crime scene and the bodies themselves were not subject to forensic pathologists, which Dr. Porntip highlighted on several occasions, it would have taken a couple of hours to get one on scene, why didn't the coppers request one, unless they already know that an "outside agency" would be all over it like a tramp on chips, and thier "theory/stories/version of events" would possibly have been blown out of the water, pretty much like it has been already.

The decision to not produce the chain of custody documents must also have the judges question why not?

If this was as watertight as the police and the prosecution claimed, they would have been producing these documents in triplicate and ramming it down the defence's throat.

Just like the DNA match, it's nothing more than RTP hearsay, no chain of custody documents, is really the final unraveling of the charade of a watertight case, I feel sorry for the families of the victims as whatever "evidence" it was that they felt comfortable in releasing theses statements with regards to the accused having a case to answer to, with compelling and overwhelming evidence to support this.

good post, they didn't want anyone involved that could not be bought or controlled, and since the directors cut was clear as to who was in the chair from early footage a certain person was wading through the scene to make sure it was played as scripted - lights camera action, and meanwhile back at the AC bar ............oh that bit was scripted out and on the cutting floor

[stephenterry]

Still no forensics on David to speak of. Only cursory and probably inaccurate cursory findings by Thai forensics, and none by Brit forensics. If Jersey (David's home) doesn't have a forensic expert, then they should make (or should have made) some other provision for an autopsy for him. I still can't banish the sight of two of Mon's buddies ('Stingray Man' and 'Big Ears cop') proudly sporting shark tooth rings in photos, just prior to the crime. If David's wounds were all caused by the blunt cement-encrusted hoe, then I'm Elvis.

Not the RTP, not the prosecution, not the judges, not Brit forensics, not even the defense team are trying to find the real perps in this case. They're all dancing around the issue and trying to focus everything on the scapegoats. I can understand the defense doing what they have to do (primarily find discrepancies between Thai and Brit forensics), but come on folks, what's most important in this case?!

The most important things, in my opinion, are:

>>> getting justice for Hannah and David,

>>> some sort of closure for the victims' families

>>> finding who really did the crime

>>> trying to make KT and other Thai beach resorts less dangerous.

All those factors seem incidental or unimportant to RTP, prosecution and the court - judging by their actions and words.

While I agree completely, the trial will need to be concluded and verdicts announced before moving on to your agenda - that is, if anyone at any level is willing to take that step. The court hearings could take years if appeals are granted.

The judges, both sets of lawyers, and the investigating RTP must know that there is no evidence to convict the B2, but the charade (and that's what it is) must be played out to the conclusion. Call it a face-saving exercise, and/or a complete lack of concern for the accused, or whatever spin is put on it, there is no current will to bring about any change to the judicial system and/or halt the trial process.

It is what it is, and that's the bottom line.

[stephenterry]

I believe that when David's autopsy is released in the public arena, it would illuminate the various weapon wounds and defence cuts that caused his death - a number not consistent with anything other than a gang attack utilising various cutting implements. Certainly not one hoe.

Should it be released before any Appeals court hearing, it could provide the 'missing' evidence that the B2 scenario conjured up by the RTP is not factual, and should not be relied upon in a court of law.

The overriding difficulty the defence team face here, is that the RTP will not release any information, reports, or any semblance of evidence that could be examined and critiqued by independent experts. The RTP are sticking to hearsay, smoke and mirrors to gain a conviction as is the normal practice here in Thailand. I am hoping it won't happen, but I'm not holding my breath.

[BoristheBlade]

Whoever released the crime pictures of the victims, should be sent to jail immediatly and sacked from their employment.

Any human being that can upload pictures of the two murder victims is a very sick individual, and in my opinion is just as bad as the people who committed these acts, maybe the people are known to each other?

[Lite Beer]

Public urged to monitor the Koh Tao murder trial by Burmese investigators

KOH SAMUI: -- Zaw Lin and Wei Phyo, the two men who stand accused of the murders in Koh Tao last September, are innocent and should be cleared of all charges according to a team of investigators representing the Burmese Government who spoke to reporters in Rangoon on Thursday. During the press interview the team urged the public to monitor the case as it continues on the 10th and 11 of this month, on what are due to be the final hearing dates.

Burmese investigation teamThe two Burmese men are accused of the rape and murder of Hannah Witheridge, and the murder of David Miller, backpackers who travelled separately to the island last year. The gruesome murders have cast a shadow over the island and raised questions about tourist safety in Thailand and well as migrant worker issues.

The accused, who initially confessed to the crimes, later retracted their confessions saying they were tortured into admitting involvement in the crime. Htoo Chit, a migrant rights advocate who has been leading the investigation team formed by the Burmese Embassy in Thailand said the evidence presented during the case was overwhelmingly in favor of the defendants and that the Thai justice system should declare them innocent. “At first, they confessed because they were tortured and threatened in police custody, but they told us everything because they trust us,” Htoo Chit said. “I believe they are innocent and will be free soon, but we must monitor [the decision of the court] and whether they are acquitted.” He went on to explain that one of the most crucial pieces of evidence was the DNA testing administered by the Thai investigators that has come under increasing scrutiny. He says that DNA testing typically takes around 20 days where the tests in this case took only three days. Furthermore Thai forensic pathologist Dr. Pornthip Rojanasunan, who was called by the defense testified that the assumed murder weapon, a garden hoe, did not show any trace of the DNA of either defendants.

Those close to the case believe the two migrant workers are being used as scapegoats in a trial that has been riddled with ambiguity and accusations of foul play. During the proceedings the translator hired to assist with investigation was revealed to be a Rohingya Muslim who was fluent in neither Thai nor the defendants native Arakanese.

Yesterday (October 2nd) marked one year in jail for the two 22 year old defendants who maintain all they did on the night of the horrific murders was play guitar on the beach close to where the crimes took place and have told members of their support group that they had no knowledge of either victim prior to the news they had been murdered the following day, had no motive for hurting anybody on an island they rely on to earn money to provide for their families and pray for justice for the families of the victims. The two, who face the death penalty if found guilty of the crimes, have remained calm during the trial during which they have received support from their mothers, both widows, who have travelled to the island to support their sons. Neither of the accused have a history of any criminal activity.

-- Samui Times 2015-10-03

[AGareth2]

we are unable to link this story but worth a look if you google "the-chilling-effect-koh-tao-suspects"

unable to open

[z42]

It's disgusting. The investigation has discovered NO evidence that can be corroborated 100% as being genuine that ties these 2 luckless young men to the crimes.

If it is proved unequivocally to be a fit up then those responsible should themselves face the gallows / the needle.

This is a serious black eye that will hang over Thailand for many years.

[canuckamuck]

All they need to do is bring in some real police and this would solved in a weekend.

[BritTim]

we are unable to link this story but worth a look if you google "the-chilling-effect-koh-tao-suspects"

unable to open

Search for "the-chilling-effect-koh-tao-suspects" in Google. There is a down arrow to the right of the link. Click on this and then click on "cached".