'Defrauded by my wife and criminals in Thailand' - BBC special report

[lostoday]

The age difference is not significant and has absolutely nothing to do with anything in this case or any other case. The rules presented are nonsense and mean nothing. Most of you have no real knowledge of relationships; how Thais think and react and how they view Westerners. I feel sorry for most of you . You are trapped in a life of lies and paranoia.It's no wonder you can't find a real relationship in Thailand or anywhere else.

I am in a "real" relationship.

I don't know how Thais think nor do I care.

Most Thai couples I see are with the partners their own age. The very few times I see an older Thai guy with a girl that's 20 years younger is when it's obvious that it's his Mia noi. This is clearly visible by the way she dresses. But, of course the obese old Farang is different. Keep lying to yourself.

1. I'm in a relationship because I have a lot of money. 2. I have children older than my wife. 3. My children have children who are older than my wife. What do you think is different about my relationship and yours?

PS Don't forget number 1.

Edited September 19, 2015 by lostoday

[jackh]

This is simply ingrained in Thai culture. A farang dog is to be exploited in any way possible and the more you can get, the bigger face you get. Never trust any Thai on any level and you can probably make out living in Thailand. Foreigners think with the wrong brain and fall into the trophy wife syndrome thinking they will be the exception to the rule. If they only take your money and not your life, then walk away feeling lucky.

You can learn it the easy way or the hard way....up to you .

[twix38]

Absolutely Harley Clarkey.

It's the Thai way to play the long game when brought to justice. They just delay and postpone and push around hoping people will get bored and/or run out of money and the will to live - as well as often the threats and intimidation from the perpetrators.

I would go a bit further. Why is is acceptable to give many Thai ladies the temptation of a lifetime by having the set up of not being able to own land as a foreigner in the way we do. There could be zones where a limited landsize is able to be owned by a Foreigner or a handful of specialised Tourist Lawyers (like the Tourist Police) to hear cases of property fraud.

The system we have now is a state sponsored wealth transfer scheme when you put mind-numbing amounts of money in reach (or control) of comparitively poor Thais. What do you think the likely outcome will be in many instances and the fact that the state bodies, police, lawyers, officials, courts then all give the run-around only confirms the original intent as one which they are not displeased with!!

I listen to the Thai official and it makes my blood boil. They all just give out a smoke screen or bluff it out. You know right then that it's on to the next person ad infinitum and trying to pin it down is a frustration beyond belief as they skirt around the issue or seek to side-track(that old ploy of making you dispair and eventually give up in frustration at the logic and provaracation) - LIKE at lawyers office: what day did the transfer take place? You come to Police station tomorrow. What day did the transfer take place? I look your copy passport........... and on and on. We think it's a language problem, but it's also deliberate and called the run-a-round.

To have a law in place that puts such temptation of riches is asking for these outcomes to regularly occur and of course they do.

Or accept we cannot own houses that we buy n the traditional accepted and expected sense because we cannot own the land they sit on. Therefore and in that case it's about time the Eurozone block took reciprical action on Thai owned property and commercial land holdings in Europe!

We would only then get fair laws and treatment here.

Edited September 19, 2015 by twix38

[lostoday]

He's not basing a marriage on body weight.

He's suggesting that a young, good-looking slim woman is hardly going to fall genuinely in love with an old foreigner, 3 times her weight, twice her age and who doesn't speak her language.

Do you think slim, petite women actually ENJOY sex with fat old men?

Don't you think it's far more likely that they fake enjoyment to make sure the money keeps flowing?

Really Normal - young guys on the way to Thailand.

Oh give it up, mate.

A 60 year old farang looking like that and with even modest finances would be in the West cleaning up with younger women.

He would be here fishing in the same waters as you lot.

My god you finally got it. Congratulations. A young guy with anything on the ball with even modest finances would be in the West cleaning up with young Western women not here in Thailand competing with us old fat guys.

[lostoday]

If you can't trust your wife to buy property, how really strong is the relationship? Think about it.

I would not trust Mother Theresa or the Pope to buy property for me not in my name. Think about it.

[harleyclarkey]

I personally know Ian Rance and Colin Vard and have an intimate knowledge of the whole sorry mess.

The core issue here is not age, size, or whether they should have seen the end result. Good on you clever street wise guys here with crystal balls....it's about all the balls you have.

Shame on you Thailand and all of those who refuse to help and are in a position to do so. Very very few of you uncaring idiots here with little to offer, other than pathetic suggestions and criticism, would have the brains and stamina and courage have stood up to these vile criminals for 5 years now.

As you know them,

You can tell us how he imagined a 20 year old slim woman could ever love a guy that old and that big?

What was he thinking?

He has now wasted a further 5 years of his life, and large amounts of money, on a hopeless cause.

Not to mention risking his life every time he enters Thailand.

That isn't brave, that's stupid IMHO.

Hopeless cause......You have the gift of foresight? Maybe you could give me next weeks Euromillions numbers?

He/they and many oithers like them had trust in the system and had no idea this could go so horribly wrong with so many corruption.

If he was, say, black would you also ask why she would possibly marry a black man. Or maybe he is disabled....why would she possibly marry a disabled person.

Keep your vile prejudices away from this forum and anywhere else.

[tomacht8]

I personally know Ian Rance and Colin Vard and have an intimate knowledge of the whole sorry mess.

The core issue here is not age, size, or whether they should have seen the end result. Good on you clever street wise guys here with crystal balls....it's about all the balls you have.

It is simply about fraud and the collusion of the authorities that are meant to protect you. The cheating, corrupt, scheming authorities. Did you see the "lawyer" who witnessed a signature without the signatory being present. How obscene is this? The Phuket lawyers for Colin who actually forged his signature. The removal of vital evidence by the police....their absolute refusal to allow police reports against their fellow officers and fellow cheats. The lawyer, paid an absolute fortune, who didn't manage to get a single property back....yet alone a stick of furniture. The dissolution of a property company without the main directors knowledge yet alone his consent.

The extent of the fraud and the number of those who colluded is very frightening indeed. The money we are talking about here extends to well over 2 million, yes million, euro. They were both robbed of their properties and it is accepted that the signatories on many documents have been forged. So why are the transactions not put aside by a court, reversed and the properties returned to their rightful owners???

The main issue for me is that not one single person or agency in Phuket or Bangkok said ...stop! This is wrong and needs to be put right. Not a single agency gave any real and genuine help. Note the police chief on the BBC programme who promised help and 4 months later he hasn't lifted a finger. My congratulations to Jonathan Head and the BBC for running this. However the programme concentrated mainly on Ian and Colins story is perhaps more horrifying.

Have you any idea of what it is like to travel to Phuket 50 times to have your case adjourned again, and again and again for no logical reason other than to wear you down with the defendants hoping that you run out of money. The chief justice on Phuket is on record as saying cases must not be adjourned many times and must be heard. Useless....another sheep with no teeth. This is Thai "justice". Have you ever being in a court where the defendant is allowed four pages of evidence to be admitted when Colin is refused a single word? Why did the judge allow, in yet another case, verbal testimony from the defendants and refuse, absolutely refuse, to hear a single word from the plaintiff, Colin.

Both partners are serving jail terms for fraud....in Colins case his partner is serving 17 years. The Phuket judge in the criminal case (seemingly about the only one competent to rule over a case) stated it was fraud that was perpetrated on Colin. In any country in the world the burden of proof in a criminal case is higher than that for a civil case. You would therefore imagine, and perhaps take for granted, that any civil action afterwards would be a formality. It has been anything but for both there victims of appalling crimes.

Shame on you Thailand and all of those who refuse to help and are in a position to do so. Very very few of you uncaring idiots here with little to offer, other than pathetic suggestions and criticism, would have the brains and stamina and courage have stood up to these vile criminals for 5 years now.

Yes that's a shame that there is no strong regulatory hand.

He believed the whole land developers and the lawyers.

I do not know the case in detail, but I suspect that he has bought the land through a Thai LTD.

This is especially dangerous if you do not know the other company shareholders, especially if they are ordered through a lawyer with the tenor: No problem.

This company constructions are in a gray area and defacto often invalid in terms of land ownership rights.

Also are land leases with the tenor:

30 years + 30 years + 30 years legally invalid.

Defacto doing here some dubious land developers illegal transactions.

Unfortunately, the Thai authorities do not do something against these half illegal property sellers.

Each one who promises here in Thailand land ownership for foreigners without problems:

run away and hands off.

[stoneyboy]

If Thailand was so welcoming to foreigners they would change the visa regulations and their laws allowing ownership of property without having to jump through hoops.

The bottom line is as many people know,they protect their own and go out of their way to blame others,this is evident in many recent hi profile criminal cases that are ongoing.

You gain minimal rights after marrying and raising children here and that information is there for all and sundry to discover before committing to a life here.

To bleat on about the Thai criminal justice system is simply ludicrous,in a country that currently has no elected government is it surprising when cases such as Dear Ian's arise.

As they say leave your western morals and laws at home they simply do not apply here.

I admire the guy for playing the waiting game but have little sympathy for people who come here and expect things to be like home when it all goes belly up.

It's time for Ian to move on with his life and forget the whole affair,something he seems to not be able to do as he is intent on becoming involved with a new Thai wife and raising his children in a country he has very little good to speak about given his recent experience.

Edited September 19, 2015 by stoneyboy

[harleyclarkey]

I personally know Ian Rance and Colin Vard and have an intimate knowledge of the whole sorry mess.

The core issue here is not age, size, or whether they should have seen the end result. Good on you clever street wise guys here with crystal balls....it's about all the balls you have.

Shame on you Thailand and all of those who refuse to help and are in a position to do so. Very very few of you uncaring idiots here with little to offer, other than pathetic suggestions and criticism, would have the brains and stamina and courage have stood up to these vile criminals for 5 years now.

As you know them,

You can tell us how he imagined a 20 year old slim woman could ever love a guy that old and that big?

What was he thinking?

He has now wasted a further 5 years of his life, and large amounts of money, on a hopeless cause.

Not to mention risking his life every time he enters Thailand.

That isn't brave, that's stupid IMHO.

Perhaps that stupid thing women go for....personality, kindness, generosity, security, ...did I leave something out?

You are yet another unsympathetic, smug armchair commentator here and you clearly have the gift of foresight. Perhaps you would drop me next weeks numbers for the Euromillions?/

He/they trusted the system and had no idea at the time it could all go so horribly wrong.

Old....fat? If he was, say, black or disabled would you also ask here as to why she would marry a black man or a disabled man?

Keep your vile prejudices off this forum and anywhere else.

[theguyfromanotherforum]

At the beginning of the video Ian says he wanted to retire in Thailand because it's warm and the laws were sound. At the end he claims the opposite.

He seems to be in denial like many posters here.

[micmichd]

lostoday:

Can you imagine it's a just matter of taste if a Farang prefers a Thai to a Farang woman?

[hawksway]

Golden rule - never invest more than you can easily afford to lose!

Inequality + injustice breed criminality.

[lostoday]

lostoday:

Can you imagine it's a just matter of taste if a Farang prefers a Thai to a Farang woman?

I don't know what you are talking about. Try quoting my post that you are referencing.

[kennypowers]

The good news is that this has gone viral and has been reported as a "don't invest in Thailand" campaign. The prime minister will not be happy about this documentary and will hopefully act to help these guys, not because he cares, but because he won't want to lose face and put off would-be investors. But then as we all know, when it comes to the islands like Phuket and Samui, there are seriously powerful families that rule above the police and government.

[jamestan]

There are so many cheating here. There is nothing we can do. I was one of those people who had been cheated. We trusted them 100%, but they used our kindness, and friendliness to cheat .

[Hugh Jarse]

For people trying to find it on iPlayer, it starts 89:19 in on the Victoria Derbyshire episode.

I player only available in the UK.... Any workaround?

One option is tosearch www.HMA.com and go from there. Easy.

[Kiwi1]

May I veer off topic a little?

I have heard stories of vicious scams worked on farangs in Thailand by other farangs in positions of trust. This thread is full of warnings about doing business with Thais, but personally I am also very cautious about doing business with farangs here unless I know a good deal about them.

The marital disaster discussed here which involved illegality can be matched by the damage which can be inflicted on (usually) a man by the law relating to marriage in the west.

One thinks of the case of Robin Williams who faced with a ruinous divorce settlement and with the prospect of having to go on the road again as an entertainer in his seventies took his own life.

I am not a lawyer and may not have the facts completely correct, but in my native country New Zealand they have the Family (destruction) Court. This court meets in secret and heavy penalties, ie jail time, threaten anybody who divulges what goes on in these courts.

The matter is made worse because you cannot not be married in New Zealand. Just shack up with someone for a couple of years and she (it is usually she) can go to the Family Court and sue for maintenance and a portion of your possessions. In the case of a more regular marriage, a man may find himself stripped of his possessions and pay ruinous maintenance for decades.

The Family Court will not accept DNA evidence to determine paternity of children.

The sort of damage inflicted on the unfortunate subject in this thread could have been inflicted on him quite legally if he was in a broadly similar situation in New Zealand. And his attempts to publicise his plight would certainly put him in jail.

All perfectly legal.

Different ships, different long splices.

[Hugh Jarse]

The good news is that this has gone viral and has been reported as a "don't invest in Thailand" campaign. The prime minister will not be happy about this documentary and will hopefully act to help these guys, not because he cares, but because he won't want to lose face and put off would-be investors. But then as we all know, when it comes to the islands like Phuket and Samui, there are seriously powerful families that rule above the police and government.

EArlier this week the PM was optimistic about attracting more Foreign Direct Investment (FDI) to Thailand . I wish him every success and moreso, in his efforts to stamp out corruption , in Phuket and elsewhere.

[VIPinthailand]

Just another example of never buying property in Thailand and never Invest any Money in anything here ...

Tell that to Bill Heinecke who made his US$ 1.14 billion fortune in Thailand

Or my good friend Peter who built Cape Yamu in Phuket, or my good friend Alan Zeman and his Paradise Group that built Andara in Phuket....

I know a lot of guys who've done very well in Thailand.

Far more than the ones who've lost money.

I see it the same way,

and would not generalize this like:

- never buy a house,

- never do business or

- never marry a thai woman.

There are those who are lucky and others have bad luck.

I consider myself one of the lucky.

More than 20 years married, healthy children and my Thai wife is diligent.

But who knows in advance how it goes in the future?

Nobody.

This applies to businesses and for women

That's why

My advice is, no matter in which country you are going:

50% of your funds should be in your name and in your home country.

The other 50% of your funds you can then invest with appropriate safeguards in a foreign country.

Never, put your entire fortune on a single horse.

50% of your funds in Thailand? A bit high!

Sounds high, but i live here 9 month every year, so i have good control.

But this 50% are well diversified.

I own condo, cars, motorbikes, bank accounts and an thai equity portfolio in my name.

We have 3 businesses, a resort and valuable land on an island.

Landowners are my wife and children.

I am secure in 30-year lease and loan contracts.

2 Business are in my name.

If my wife kicks me out tomorrow morning, I have access to 50% of our Thai assets.

The other half belongs to her and the children, and it is well deserved.

50% you say? interesting

is she good looking because I may be interested.

please tell her to contact me immediately.

[tomacht8]

Just another example of never buying property in Thailand and never Invest any Money in anything here ...

Tell that to Bill Heinecke who made his US$ 1.14 billion fortune in Thailand

Or my good friend Peter who built Cape Yamu in Phuket, or my good friend Alan Zeman and his Paradise Group that built Andara in Phuket....

I know a lot of guys who've done very well in Thailand.

Far more than the ones who've lost money.

I see it the same way,

and would not generalize this like:

- never buy a house,

- never do business or

- never marry a thai woman.

There are those who are lucky and others have bad luck.

I consider myself one of the lucky.

More than 20 years married, healthy children and my Thai wife is diligent.

But who knows in advance how it goes in the future?

Nobody.

This applies to businesses and for women

That's why

My advice is, no matter in which country you are going:

50% of your funds should be in your name and in your home country.

The other 50% of your funds you can then invest with appropriate safeguards in a foreign country.

Never, put your entire fortune on a single horse.

50% of your funds in Thailand? A bit high!

Sounds high, but i live here 9 month every year, so i have good control.

But this 50% are well diversified.

I own condo, cars, motorbikes, bank accounts and an thai equity portfolio in my name.

We have 3 businesses, a resort and valuable land on an island.

Landowners are my wife and children.

I am secure in 30-year lease and loan contracts.

2 Business are in my name.

If my wife kicks me out tomorrow morning, I have access to 50% of our Thai assets.

The other half belongs to her and the children, and it is well deserved.

50% you say? interesting

is she good looking because I may be interested.

please tell her to contact me immediately.

LOL

Every day I have to shoo the beggars from our court.

[Hugh Jarse]

So he loses a shit load of money, advises people not to retire here, then re-marries!

For purely practical reasons, try bringing up kids as a lone parent!. He probably has no problems either with getting his new wife entry clearance to the UK where he will no doubt settle and his kids get a free education. A sad case indeed , a man who trusted too much before realising that there is little recourse to due process and an independant ,unbiased legal culture.

[tangmu]

Did anyone see the movie ALEX THE ALLEY CAT? a spoof on this very subject. Its not really funny rather just another fact of life.

That's why they call it Amazing Thailand!

https://www.amazon.com/gp/video/detail/B00533XD2Q?ie=UTF8&*Version*=1&*entries*=0

[stickylies]

Living the Life...

[Cypress Hill]

Great thread if only for the comedy value

He's not basing a marriage on body weight.

He's suggesting that a young, good-looking slim woman is hardly going to fall genuinely in love with an old foreigner, 3 times her weight, twice her age and who doesn't speak her language.

Do you think slim, petite women actually ENJOY sex with fat old men?

Don't you think it's far more likely that they fake enjoyment to make sure the money keeps flowing?

Really Normal - young guys on the way to Thailand.

Oh give it up, mate.

A 60 year old farang looking like that and with even modest finances would be in the West cleaning up with younger women.

He would be here fishing in the same waters as you lot.

My god you finally got it. Congratulations. A young guy with anything on the ball with even modest finances would be in the West cleaning up with young Western women not here in Thailand competing with us old fat guys.

With respect, I don't think you and I are dealing with the same kind of women.

[lostoday]

Great thread if only for the comedy value

Don't you think it's far more likely that they fake enjoyment to make sure the money keeps flowing

Oh give it up, mate.

A 60 year old farang looking like that and with even modest finances would be in the West cleaning up with younger women.

He would be here fishing in the same waters as you lot.

My god you finally got it. Congratulations. A young guy with anything on the ball with even modest finances would be in the West cleaning up with young Western women not here in Thailand competing with us old fat guys.

With respect, I don't think you and I are dealing with the same kind of women.

I agree. As a young man I left Thailand and went back to the West because the old guys got all the attractive women in Thailand.

When I retired I came back to Thailand to take advantage of the anomaly in Thai courtship rituals.

[tuanku]

My wife is Thai, most of my male friends have Thai wives. Nobody I know has had anything like this happen to them, and I believe that almost if not all of the people I know in my situation, including myself, are happy they met someone here and have made the commitment to living here. Having said that - when things do go wrong, there is no restitution under the law and I think we should be aware of that and be careful about over-investing financially.

However I suffered far more both emotionally and financially with my divorce in the west when my first marriage broke down than I am ever likely to do if it happened a second time around.

My advice, for what it is worth, is to choose carefully, do some trust testing early on, take you wife home with you for a year or two if possible, and always keep something for yourself - foreign assets, property, investments outside Thailand, just in case. It is hard to compete for ownership of anything within Thailand with a Thai, be it a wife, business partner, or employer.

[faraday]

Can we ever truly trust another person?

Do we ever truly know someone?

[tomacht8]

Can we ever truly trust another person?

Do we ever truly know someone?

Yes you can do in the presence, today.

What will happen tomorrow, nobody knows.

Maybe you're then the bad partner who forsake his faithful wife for an another.

Life is not a one-way street.

[green job]

Can we ever truly trust another person?

Do we ever truly know someone?

No never again.

[VIPinthailand]

you can only trust your mother because she is the one who carried you