'Defrauded by my wife and criminals in Thailand' - BBC special report

[Tony125]

Check out this link

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/823651-unbuilt-phuket-condo-buyers-appeal-to-gov-to-push-refunds/?utm_source=newsletter-20150508-1451&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=news

Should be on topic as it shows condo owners being defrauded as well----- not very safe buying property in Phuket unless you are very carefull !

[thaibeachlovers]

Check out this link

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/823651-unbuilt-phuket-condo-buyers-appeal-to-gov-to-push-refunds/?utm_source=newsletter-20150508-1451&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=news

Should be on topic as it shows condo owners being defrauded as well----- not very safe buying property in Phuket unless you are very carefull !

It's not "safe" for farangs to "buy" property anywhere in Thailand, but still they do it, reasoning that "they" are different.

[sawadee1947]

Would you trust Thailand and its people with your retirement savings i sure wouldnt.

yes I would as long I can put my hand on my wallet...

[Robert24]

Anybody posting that condos are automatically the "legal" way to own property is misleading you.

Here is a description of a Typical new condo development on Phuket, which I checked out the paperwork for:

Total units 300

Foreign freehold 149 units

Leasehold 151 units

Leases are Available as a 30 year lease from the developers land holding company, which is owned 51% by Thais.

There are options to renew lease for 2 further lease of 30 years each.

However, the Land Dept will only register the first 30 year lease

Now, think about it.

300 Farang end up " buying" into this development.

There's a 7% rental return guaranteed for you, as an investor, for 3 years.

Now stop and THINK.

The developer, the law firm, the sales property agency, no matter how big, how international, all say that it's legal.

However, they cannot protect you if You ever have to go to Phuket Court, to protect your rights over some dispute ( eg access dispute) .

Based on a Judgement by the Phuket Court last year, there is a danger that you lease, will be ruled to be void. Krap.

This is a fact.

The Phuket property market, for condos and apartments is going to blow up one of these days . Mark my words. One disgusted Farang married couple ( I know, this makes it off topic).

one way to avoid problems is you buy only from reputable developers. Also I guess if you do a lease you not buy a property, you lease it. Granted there is an option to extend the lease after 30 years, but it's legally completely something else than if you buy a property. And agree with you, there have been legal problems with leases longer than 30 years.

[Robert24]

Been here in LOS 16 years and never married. Every farang ive known here has been married atleast once to a Thai ,lost alot of money including houses and all are now divorced. I'm the only one left living and working in Thailand.

What makes these mostly old ugly middleaged foreign men think that young Thai girls like them ? Theyre so gullible .

Its always about your money. Thais girls have said to me they like farang money.. They never say ( sincerely) that they like sleeping with farangs.

The only farang that i (think) is still married is an aussie who married here when he was about 23 and she the same. They live in OZ ,not here.

99% of girls who marry foreign men do so to escape poverty and support family including Thai BF or maybe even a sami.

Virtually every Thai girl on the internet sites is after an old retired foreign man 55-75 year olds for immediate marriage.

Suckers !.

I'm still married with a Thai and not divorced. And interesting enough I also have other friends in Thailand not divorced yet, both Thais and foreigners. But I can tell you I have many friends in Europe who are divorced (I reckon more than 50% of my friends in Europe are divorced) and they have lost not only their property to the ex-wife, many of them spent a fortune on divorce lawyers and at the end lost a lot and still have to pay on a monthly basis to their ex-wife for the children. I think in many ways a divorce here in Thailand sounds more straight forward and I think it's less advantageous for a woman to go through divorce here. Just my thought.... and sorry for going off topic but had to say it.

[Tony125]

Stop playing victim. You knew going in the inconsistentcies in legal recourse should things go wrong. Well they went wrong and you are living what you already knew.

The thing is most non nationals are now aware of the lack of law, justice, logic indeed blatant racism in the judicial system in Phuket. 10 years ago it was not apparent because people like Ian did not come out and bare their souls to be ridiculed when they should be applauded and supported. I don't think it was easy for him to go public but he hopefully will have prevented others from falling into the same trap. How many of those mightier than thou negative Thaivisa keyboard warriors have bank accounts or cars in Thailand because you can just as easily loose your car and the money in your bank account just like like Ian and have no idea until it is too late. What do you see at the start and finish of the Thaivisa newsletter every day? Houses for sale. How are Phuket newspapers mostly funded? Property advertising. The purchasing of property in Phuket is often promoted by the Governor and his administration and supported by the legal profession. The foreign currency used to purchase property in Thailand is converted to Thai Baht Thailand through the Bank of Thailand with the detail that the fund transfer is for the purchase of property. So is the legal profession and Bank of Thailand complicit in the fraud? If the purchase of property is illegal then the Bank of Thailand, legal profession and courts should make a clear statement that it is. Quite a few people I know are, as a result of this and other recent publicity cutting and running from Phuket. I think everybody should get behind Ian and support him and not slaughter the messenger. Shocking things have been said here about Ian with malice and little forethought. Cheap shots. He is already in a dark place and we should be supporting him. The man is clearly not a fool and did not put all his eggs in the one basket as many suggested because he has been fighting the corruption in Phuket and existing here for 5 years. Thaivisa would be all the better for each and every one of us if we supported each other.

I first visited Thailand in April 2000 fell in love with the country but even back then was warned about buying any property in Phuket .Was told about doggy practises to form companies and buy land and told sooner or later people would lose the property they bought. Heard that good Thai kids were given land in hills to grow crops build home but bad kids were given the beach land, worthless for growing. Who figured that farangs would want to come and spend big money for sand. Bad kids still dealing in Phuket.I used a foreign owned lawfirm with Thai lawyers working for them to buy property in Rayong, Pattaya BKK as they said "Thai lawyers look out for Thai " And for me saying not to put all your eggs in one basket the video and article make him out to be homeless and moving around Thailand in rented places trying to sue to get his money back because he doesm't have much money anymore. Does that not fit the expression putting all your eggs in one basket? so that when something goes wrong your left in a bad way?

As for all the adds selling properties around Phuket and Thailand there is no problem with that, no false advertising that your saying people are being given false info. The property is available for sale. You or Ian could have put family home in kids name----no one could have sold/leined house untill the child was 20. Also could put house in own name with seperated deed from the land. Also could have written as a loan to wife to be paid back in XXX amount of time with house/land as collateral/ If registeradat land court they will force selling of land if loan not paid back. Many ways to protext oneself IF you research.

If I have followed this case correctly and understood it fully, I think perhaps some people are missing the point here, it's not what he COULD have done that is the problem, it is what happened to him when he followed the law and the process as laid out in Thai law.

His signature was forged, which is a criminal act and no matter what else is said about the whole affair, he has been the victim of a crime which should have been sorted out by the Thai legal system.

The fact that he seems to have come up against what would appear to be a "conspiracy to defraud him" when seeking justice, exacerbates the problem even further.

There are probably many thousands of companies set up legally by farangs here and none of which have had this particular problem, however when a criminal gang with contacts in high places sets out to defraud you, things can become extremely difficult to remedy/rectify.

So in effect he was the victim of fraud and that can happen to anybody here, in any circumstances, any time, anywhere and any place, much the same as it can in other countries.

PETCHANET PRATRUANGKRAI

THE NATION October 12, 2015 1:00 am

THE COMMERCE Ministry's Business Development Department plans to focus its investigation on the use of Thai nationals as nominees of foreign-controlled companies in 10 business sectors where it believes the illegal practice is widespread.

Deputy director-general Chainarong Chochai said under a 2016 plan the department would tackle this practice vigorously through stringent law enforcement in a bid to prevent problems occurring under the Foreign Business Act.

The 10 sectors to be inspected are food and beverage, tourism, property rental, the property trade, car rental, spa, handicraft and souvenir retail, Internet retailing, direct sales, and education consultants.

Chainarong said that those sectors would be targeted because it was believed that a high proportion of their businesses were foreign controlled through the use of Thai nominees. He said the department would stringently investigate those businesses in an effort to prevent Thai enterprises and consumers being impacted negatively as some foreign-owned businesses were engaged in unscrupulous activities to lure consumers.

The inspection would focus on a business' share structure, investment capital, and technology transfer.

The department reported this year it had investigated six sectors - food and beverage, tourism, car rental, property rental and sales, and spa.

It said it investigated 6,175 firms in six provinces - Bangkok, Chon Buri, Surat Thani, Prachuap Khiri Khan,Chiang Mai, and Phuket - and found 13 firms were suspected of breaching the Foreign Business Act through the use of Thai nominees.

Those firms have also been probed by the Department of Special Investigation and the Revenue Department.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/823651-unbuilt-phuket-condo-buyers-appeal-to-gov-to-push-refunds/?utm_source=newsletter-20150508-1451&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=news

As I mentioned to you earlier was warned 15 yearsa go when first visiting Thailkand NOT to buy property in Phuket with nominiesas sooner or later Gov might crack down on a way to possibly circumvent Thai control of property.

[dageurreotype]

Check out this link

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/823651-unbuilt-phuket-condo-buyers-appeal-to-gov-to-push-refunds/?utm_source=newsletter-20150508-1451&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=news

Should be on topic as it shows condo owners being defrauded as well----- not very safe buying property in Phuket unless you are very carefull !

These fools were handing over money every month for two years to this property company without the project ever having broken ground. How is this relevant? Stupid is as stupid does.

[sendintheclowns]

I have posted this under another forum. I thought I would share it here, too.

My case has been reported, but only to the extent of the Judgements by the Phuket lower court and Appeal Court. If it is of any interest, we arey a retired western couple. We invested 4 million baht in a 30 year lease of an apartment, as we had retired here and wanted income to supplement our pensions. Under the contracts, the developer wax not allowed to borrow against nor to sell the property. He illegally sold the rights to all 12 apartments, with 30 registered year leases ( and their renewal options) to a Phuket businessman, for 15 million baht. The business man claimed that

- he did not visit the property, to notice that there were 12 occupied apartments,

- when he handed over the money to the developer at the Land Office, neither he nor his lawyer did "due diligence" by checking with the Registry Officer to see that there were 11 leases registered, against the buildings,

- when doing this transaction, neither he nor his lawyer noted that there was 1 additional lease application for registration, posted on the public notice board at the Land Office. All of this despite that his loan agreement referred to land, 2 buildings and a swimming pool.

The Court Judgement had nothing to do with the Pleading which we filed.

The Pleading was for the Court to rule under the Consumer Protection Act ( that the developer and the lender acted against our interests, by the developer transferring the property to the Thai lender.).

The Judgement said, in plain English, " this is not a lease. it is legally structured like a condo and the plans look like those of a condo. So it must be a condo. Under the Condo laws, you must buy the condo, not lease it. You did not buy it, or if you did, you did not register it as a purchase of a condo property. So your purchase is invalid. And - your lease is invalid. "

[sendintheclowns]

Some extra background to my case:

the Judgement also said that we should be charged for illegally trying to get around the restrictions on foreigners owning land.

The logic of this last point was due to us subscribing collectively for 49% of the company shares. These shares were be held for the duration of the lease ( and any extension), and to be returned once the lease expired. The lease structure was prepared by a Thai law firm, which is on the list of lawyers recommended by a number of Embassies, today. It was approved by each investor's personal law firm, in 2004. It has been used by 100's if not 1000's of apartment units sold, on Phuket alone. At Appeal, the Thai business man added an extra charge, that we had tried to defraud him. The irony of this part is he is a very successful business man, selling product to major non- Thai developers on Phuket. At the time of writing, there are apartments listed for resale, with similar lease paperwork registered in place. I have asked several developers and Property agencies if, what they are selling is legal . The answer is 'no problem'.

Now that our Judgement has been public, since early 2014, a number of law firms are reversing their long- standing advice. STILL, a number of law firms continue to say that there is nothing wrong our paperwork, except "maybe you should use a different set up for protecting your lease renewal option". so, legal advice in some cases is good for today - but you had better not go to court and have it reviewed by a Judge, as he may rule that you have nothing.

I think that the lesson learned is, no matter how careful you are with investing your money, in property, here in Thailland, no matter how good the advice you obtain from a law firm and a property agency, the advice may be useless, in hindsight. Because the system of regulations are not reliable. As Bill Barnett described it, you are safe if you buy from a major developer. The problem, is that, on Phuket, the major developers account for at most, 25% of the units sold. The 75% are subject to the laws of the jungle. And, although I love the country and would never leave, I and you are second class citizens. Excuse the length of these 2 posts. I hope there is some guidance i

[xylophone]

I first visited Thailand in April 2000 fell in love with the country but even back then was warned about buying any property in Phuket .Was told about doggy practises to form companies and buy land and told sooner or later people would lose the property they bought. Heard that good Thai kids were given land in hills to grow crops build home but bad kids were given the beach land, worthless for growing. Who figured that farangs would want to come and spend big money for sand. Bad kids still dealing in Phuket.I used a foreign owned lawfirm with Thai lawyers working for them to buy property in Rayong, Pattaya BKK as they said "Thai lawyers look out for Thai " And for me saying not to put all your eggs in one basket the video and article make him out to be homeless and moving around Thailand in rented places trying to sue to get his money back because he doesm't have much money anymore. Does that not fit the expression putting all your eggs in one basket? so that when something goes wrong your left in a bad way?

As for all the adds selling properties around Phuket and Thailand there is no problem with that, no false advertising that your saying people are being given false info. The property is available for sale. You or Ian could have put family home in kids name----no one could have sold/leined house untill the child was 20. Also could put house in own name with seperated deed from the land. Also could have written as a loan to wife to be paid back in XXX amount of time with house/land as collateral/ If registeradat land court they will force selling of land if loan not paid back. Many ways to protext oneself IF you research.

If I have followed this case correctly and understood it fully, I think perhaps some people are missing the point here, it's not what he COULD have done that is the problem, it is what happened to him when he followed the law and the process as laid out in Thai law.

His signature was forged, which is a criminal act and no matter what else is said about the whole affair, he has been the victim of a crime which should have been sorted out by the Thai legal system.

The fact that he seems to have come up against what would appear to be a "conspiracy to defraud him" when seeking justice, exacerbates the problem even further.

There are probably many thousands of companies set up legally by farangs here and none of which have had this particular problem, however when a criminal gang with contacts in high places sets out to defraud you, things can become extremely difficult to remedy/rectify.

So in effect he was the victim of fraud and that can happen to anybody here, in any circumstances, any time, anywhere and any place, much the same as it can in other countries.

PETCHANET PRATRUANGKRAI

THE NATION October 12, 2015 1:00 am

THE COMMERCE Ministry's Business Development Department plans to focus its investigation on the use of Thai nationals as nominees of foreign-controlled companies in 10 business sectors where it believes the illegal practice is widespread.

Deputy director-general Chainarong Chochai said under a 2016 plan the department would tackle this practice vigorously through stringent law enforcement in a bid to prevent problems occurring under the Foreign Business Act.

The 10 sectors to be inspected are food and beverage, tourism, property rental, the property trade, car rental, spa, handicraft and souvenir retail, Internet retailing, direct sales, and education consultants.

Chainarong said that those sectors would be targeted because it was believed that a high proportion of their businesses were foreign controlled through the use of Thai nominees. He said the department would stringently investigate those businesses in an effort to prevent Thai enterprises and consumers being impacted negatively as some foreign-owned businesses were engaged in unscrupulous activities to lure consumers.

The inspection would focus on a business' share structure, investment capital, and technology transfer.

The department reported this year it had investigated six sectors - food and beverage, tourism, car rental, property rental and sales, and spa.

It said it investigated 6,175 firms in six provinces - Bangkok, Chon Buri, Surat Thani, Prachuap Khiri Khan,Chiang Mai, and Phuket - and found 13 firms were suspected of breaching the Foreign Business Act through the use of Thai nominees.

Those firms have also been probed by the Department of Special Investigation and the Revenue Department.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/823651-unbuilt-phuket-condo-buyers-appeal-to-gov-to-push-refunds/?utm_source=newsletter-20150508-1451&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=news

As I mentioned to you earlier was warned 15 yearsa go when first visiting Thailkand NOT to buy property in Phuket with nominiesas sooner or later Gov might crack down on a way to possibly circumvent Thai control of property.

I am of the same opinion with regards to buying property in Thailand, and that is – – don't. I did some years ago and was lucky enough to get out of it with a profit, but I certainly wouldn't do it again.

I am all for the Thai Business Development Department focusing their attention on nominee companies, because they have always been illegal, although many lawyers have recommended them to potential property buyers.

I will stress once again that the OP stated, as far as I am aware, that he already had an existing business and the property was bought through this business, which is legal– – provided the company structure was legal of course.

A company can have Thai directors and shareholders and provided they have invested in the company and are receiving returns on their investment and so on, then all is fine. What is not legal is to set up a company solely for the purposes of property ownership, using Thai nominees who do not contribute anything to the company and whose names are used purely for the purposes of transferring the majority shareholding over to the farang, which is what the government now seems to be cracking down on, although it has supposedly "cracked down" on this practice many times before.

If the OP's company was legit, then he was a victim of FRAUD and not because he did anything wrong or because of anything he "could have done", but because he was the victim of a criminal act, just the same as someone could have done with his motor vehicle or anything for that matter, because once signatures are forged and people in high places come into the equation, there is no justice for folks like him (or us for that matter).

[thaibeachlovers]

I have posted this under another forum. I thought I would share it here, too.

My case has been reported, but only to the extent of the Judgements by the Phuket lower court and Appeal Court. If it is of any interest, we arey a retired western couple. We invested 4 million baht in a 30 year lease of an apartment, as we had retired here and wanted income to supplement our pensions. Under the contracts, the developer wax not allowed to borrow against nor to sell the property. He illegally sold the rights to all 12 apartments, with 30 registered year leases ( and their renewal options) to a Phuket businessman, for 15 million baht. The business man claimed that

- he did not visit the property, to notice that there were 12 occupied apartments,

- when he handed over the money to the developer at the Land Office, neither he nor his lawyer did "due diligence" by checking with the Registry Officer to see that there were 11 leases registered, against the buildings,

- when doing this transaction, neither he nor his lawyer noted that there was 1 additional lease application for registration, posted on the public notice board at the Land Office. All of this despite that his loan agreement referred to land, 2 buildings and a swimming pool.

The Court Judgement had nothing to do with the Pleading which we filed.

The Pleading was for the Court to rule under the Consumer Protection Act ( that the developer and the lender acted against our interests, by the developer transferring the property to the Thai lender.).

The Judgement said, in plain English, " this is not a lease. it is legally structured like a condo and the plans look like those of a condo. So it must be a condo. Under the Condo laws, you must buy the condo, not lease it. You did not buy it, or if you did, you did not register it as a purchase of a condo property. So your purchase is invalid. And - your lease is invalid. "

Oh dear, I do not know whether to sympathise or scorn you.

"due diligence"

Obviously you did not do any yourself, or you would have known that your scheme was illegal under Thai law- never trust a Thai lawyer in such things- find out for yourself.

We invested 4 million baht

You could have lived the life of Riley on that for 30 years, without "investing" it in a dodgy scam.

The rule which you obviously did not learn on arrival in Thailand was that to make a small fortune you must start with a large one.

[thaibeachlovers]

Some extra background to my case:

the Judgement also said that we should be charged for illegally trying to get around the restrictions on foreigners owning land.

The logic of this last point was due to us subscribing collectively for 49% of the company shares. These shares were be held for the duration of the lease ( and any extension), and to be returned once the lease expired. The lease structure was prepared by a Thai law firm, which is on the list of lawyers recommended by a number of Embassies, today. It was approved by each investor's personal law firm, in 2004. It has been used by 100's if not 1000's of apartment units sold, on Phuket alone. At Appeal, the Thai business man added an extra charge, that we had tried to defraud him. The irony of this part is he is a very successful business man, selling product to major non- Thai developers on Phuket. At the time of writing, there are apartments listed for resale, with similar lease paperwork registered in place. I have asked several developers and Property agencies if, what they are selling is legal . The answer is 'no problem'.

Now that our Judgement has been public, since early 2014, a number of law firms are reversing their long- standing advice. STILL, a number of law firms continue to say that there is nothing wrong our paperwork, except "maybe you should use a different set up for protecting your lease renewal option". so, legal advice in some cases is good for today - but you had better not go to court and have it reviewed by a Judge, as he may rule that you have nothing.

I think that the lesson learned is, no matter how careful you are with investing your money, in property, here in Thailland, no matter how good the advice you obtain from a law firm and a property agency, the advice may be useless, in hindsight. Because the system of regulations are not reliable. As Bill Barnett described it, you are safe if you buy from a major developer. The problem, is that, on Phuket, the major developers account for at most, 25% of the units sold. The 75% are subject to the laws of the jungle. And, although I love the country and would never leave, I and you are second class citizens. Excuse the length of these 2 posts. I hope there is some guidance i

maybe you should use a different set up for protecting your lease renewal option

In other words, you should use a different device for circumventing Thai law.

no matter how careful you are with investing your money, in property, here in Thailland

Had you invested in your own country and use the proceedings to live in LOS, you'd be sitting pretty now.

no matter how good the advice you obtain from a law firm and a property agency, the advice may be useless, in hindsight.

Of course it is.

The 75% are subject to the laws of the jungle.

"Due diligence" would have told you that.

I and you are second class citizens

Unless you have qualified for a Thai passport you are NOT a Thai citizen, and yes, all farangs are "second class" in LOS. How many zillions of times has it been said on these pages that our money is welcome in LOS, but us less so?

The lesson I learned in LOS over many, many years is never, never, never "invest" any money in LOS that I can't afford to lose.

[nontabury]

Some extra background to my case:

the Judgement also said that we should be charged for illegally trying to get around the restrictions on foreigners owning land.

The logic of this last point was due to us subscribing collectively for 49% of the company shares. These shares were be held for the duration of the lease ( and any extension), and to be returned once the lease expired. The lease structure was prepared by a Thai law firm, which is on the list of lawyers recommended by a number of Embassies, today. It was approved by each investor's personal law firm, in 2004. It has been used by 100's if not 1000's of apartment units sold, on Phuket alone. At Appeal, the Thai business man added an extra charge, that we had tried to defraud him. The irony of this part is he is a very successful business man, selling product to major non- Thai developers on Phuket. At the time of writing, there are apartments listed for resale, with similar lease paperwork registered in place. I have asked several developers and Property agencies if, what they are selling is legal . The answer is 'no problem'.

Now that our Judgement has been public, since early 2014, a number of law firms are reversing their long- standing advice. STILL, a number of law firms continue to say that there is nothing wrong our paperwork, except "maybe you should use a different set up for protecting your lease renewal option". so, legal advice in some cases is good for today - but you had better not go to court and have it reviewed by a Judge, as he may rule that you have nothing.

I think that the lesson learned is, no matter how careful you are with investing your money, in property, here in Thailland, no matter how good the advice you obtain from a law firm and a property agency, the advice may be useless, in hindsight. Because the system of regulations are not reliable. As Bill Barnett described it, you are safe if you buy from a major developer. The problem, is that, on Phuket, the major developers account for at most, 25% of the units sold. The 75% are subject to the laws of the jungle. And, although I love the country and would never leave, I and you are second class citizens. Excuse the length of these 2 posts. I hope there is some guidance i

maybe you should use a different set up for protecting your lease renewal option

In other words, you should use a different device for circumventing Thai law.

no matter how careful you are with investing your money, in property, here in Thailland

Had you invested in your own country and use the proceedings to live in LOS, you'd be sitting pretty now.

no matter how good the advice you obtain from a law firm and a property agency, the advice may be useless, in hindsight.

Of course it is.

The 75% are subject to the laws of the jungle.

"Due diligence" would have told you that.

I and you are second class citizens

Unless you have qualified for a Thai passport you are NOT a Thai citizen, and yes, all farangs are "second class" in LOS. How many zillions of times has it been said on these pages that our money is welcome in LOS, but us less so?

The lesson I learned in LOS over many, many years is never, never, never "invest" any money in LOS that I can't afford to lose.

You are correct, they are not 2nd class citizens, they are 2nd class residents, subject to all Thai corruption, including that handed down by most Thai judges.

[timewilltell]

Some extra background to my case:

the Judgement also said that we should be charged for illegally trying to get around the restrictions on foreigners owning land.

The logic of this last point was due to us subscribing collectively for 49% of the company shares. These shares were be held for the duration of the lease ( and any extension), and to be returned once the lease expired. The lease structure was prepared by a Thai law firm, which is on the list of lawyers recommended by a number of Embassies, today. It was approved by each investor's personal law firm, in 2004. It has been used by 100's if not 1000's of apartment units sold, on Phuket alone. At Appeal, the Thai business man added an extra charge, that we had tried to defraud him. The irony of this part is he is a very successful business man, selling product to major non- Thai developers on Phuket. At the time of writing, there are apartments listed for resale, with similar lease paperwork registered in place. I have asked several developers and Property agencies if, what they are selling is legal . The answer is 'no problem'.

Now that our Judgement has been public, since early 2014, a number of law firms are reversing their long- standing advice. STILL, a number of law firms continue to say that there is nothing wrong our paperwork, except "maybe you should use a different set up for protecting your lease renewal option". so, legal advice in some cases is good for today - but you had better not go to court and have it reviewed by a Judge, as he may rule that you have nothing.

I think that the lesson learned is, no matter how careful you are with investing your money, in property, here in Thailland, no matter how good the advice you obtain from a law firm and a property agency, the advice may be useless, in hindsight. Because the system of regulations are not reliable. As Bill Barnett described it, you are safe if you buy from a major developer. The problem, is that, on Phuket, the major developers account for at most, 25% of the units sold. The 75% are subject to the laws of the jungle. And, although I love the country and would never leave, I and you are second class citizens. Excuse the length of these 2 posts. I hope there is some guidance i

maybe you should use a different set up for protecting your lease renewal option

In other words, you should use a different device for circumventing Thai law.

no matter how careful you are with investing your money, in property, here in Thailland

Had you invested in your own country and use the proceedings to live in LOS, you'd be sitting pretty now.

no matter how good the advice you obtain from a law firm and a property agency, the advice may be useless, in hindsight.

Of course it is.

The 75% are subject to the laws of the jungle.

"Due diligence" would have told you that.

I and you are second class citizens

Unless you have qualified for a Thai passport you are NOT a Thai citizen, and yes, all farangs are "second class" in LOS. How many zillions of times has it been said on these pages that our money is welcome in LOS, but us less so?

The lesson I learned in LOS over many, many years is never, never, never "invest" any money in LOS that I can't afford to lose.

It is heartening to know there are people like you who are so clued up on the Thai system. Somewhat less enthralling is the contempt in which you hold those who do not have your knowledge on the subject matter. Many people are coming to Thailand believing at least some of the hype and believing they can invest their money and that a system of justice exists that will not support scammers, thieves and cheats. Unfortunately the Thai system of justice, bent, corrupt gangs of lawyers who persecute foreigners and any lawyer who dares represent them, and judges who do not even try to apply the law in favour of a foreigner almost as if it is a loss of face on the whole country that a Thai could be a cheat, corrupt or otherwise scamming foreigners. The abject racism and scale of the problem is very much not know by all and sundry though I accept if you now know how to search and pick the right keywords you will no doubt find the horror stories.

The fact is most buyers are absolutely not aware of the facts as you know them or as I know them now. They are lied to by the TAT, lied to by the property industry, lied to by propaganda encouraging them to invest in the property industry, invest in Thailand, invest, invest, invest. One might be led to believe that with all the effort put into advertising Thailand as being a wonderful place to invest that there might actually be some laws that go to protect those who benefit the country by investing.

The reality is that you are on a hiding to a racist nothing here. Do not invest is right. Do not invest and do not believe a soul here because the lies are so plentiful it is impossible to find the truth that might lie somewhere. It certainly does not lie in the justice system that deserves to lead the Phuket property market into the annihilation because as a foreigner you will be targeted, scammed, lied to and led up the garden path by lawyers who have no morals and even less ethics.

However that is the story that needs to get out and your condescending tone to a retired couple is really unnecessary and in poor taste.

[dageurreotype]

It is heartening to know there are people like you who are so clued up on the Thai system. Somewhat less enthralling is the contempt in which you hold those who do not have your knowledge on the subject matter. Many people are coming to Thailand believing at least some of the hype and believing they can invest their money and that a system of justice exists that will not support scammers, thieves and cheats. Unfortunately the Thai system of justice, bent, corrupt gangs of lawyers who persecute foreigners and any lawyer who dares represent them, and judges who do not even try to apply the law in favour of a foreigner almost as if it is a loss of face on the whole country that a Thai could be a cheat, corrupt or otherwise scamming foreigners. The abject racism and scale of the problem is very much not know by all and sundry though I accept if you now know how to search and pick the right keywords you will no doubt find the horror stories.

The fact is most buyers are absolutely not aware of the facts as you know them or as I know them now. They are lied to by the TAT, lied to by the property industry, lied to by propaganda encouraging them to invest in the property industry, invest in Thailand, invest, invest, invest. One might be led to believe that with all the effort put into advertising Thailand as being a wonderful place to invest that there might actually be some laws that go to protect those who benefit the country by investing.

The reality is that you are on a hiding to a racist nothing here. Do not invest is right. Do not invest and do not believe a soul here because the lies are so plentiful it is impossible to find the truth that might lie somewhere. It certainly does not lie in the justice system that deserves to lead the Phuket property market into the annihilation because as a foreigner you will be targeted, scammed, lied to and led up the garden path by lawyers who have no morals and even less ethics.

However that is the story that needs to get out and your condescending tone to a retired couple is really unnecessary and in poor taste.

Yes very nice post. Omitting the fact that many (most) 'investors') new to Thailand would not heed your warning over some smooth talking slimeball in a suit. I tried warning a 'retired couple' re the idiot 90+90+90 and was ignored. They lost everything. I'm pretty sure the above case was similar. The problem is, most people are prepared to listen to what they believe to be authoritative voices. There's simply no helping some people. Same the World over, but in a third world country? Seriously?

[Nomyai]

So what happening with this de-fraudation case? Any un-defraudation going on?

[thaibeachlovers]

Some extra background to my case:

the Judgement also said that we should be charged for illegally trying to get around the restrictions on foreigners owning land.

The logic of this last point was due to us subscribing collectively for 49% of the company shares. These shares were be held for the duration of the lease ( and any extension), and to be returned once the lease expired. The lease structure was prepared by a Thai law firm, which is on the list of lawyers recommended by a number of Embassies, today. It was approved by each investor's personal law firm, in 2004. It has been used by 100's if not 1000's of apartment units sold, on Phuket alone. At Appeal, the Thai business man added an extra charge, that we had tried to defraud him. The irony of this part is he is a very successful business man, selling product to major non- Thai developers on Phuket. At the time of writing, there are apartments listed for resale, with similar lease paperwork registered in place. I have asked several developers and Property agencies if, what they are selling is legal . The answer is 'no problem'.

Now that our Judgement has been public, since early 2014, a number of law firms are reversing their long- standing advice. STILL, a number of law firms continue to say that there is nothing wrong our paperwork, except "maybe you should use a different set up for protecting your lease renewal option". so, legal advice in some cases is good for today - but you had better not go to court and have it reviewed by a Judge, as he may rule that you have nothing.

I think that the lesson learned is, no matter how careful you are with investing your money, in property, here in Thailland, no matter how good the advice you obtain from a law firm and a property agency, the advice may be useless, in hindsight. Because the system of regulations are not reliable. As Bill Barnett described it, you are safe if you buy from a major developer. The problem, is that, on Phuket, the major developers account for at most, 25% of the units sold. The 75% are subject to the laws of the jungle. And, although I love the country and would never leave, I and you are second class citizens. Excuse the length of these 2 posts. I hope there is some guidance i

maybe you should use a different set up for protecting your lease renewal option

In other words, you should use a different device for circumventing Thai law.

no matter how careful you are with investing your money, in property, here in Thailland

Had you invested in your own country and use the proceedings to live in LOS, you'd be sitting pretty now.

no matter how good the advice you obtain from a law firm and a property agency, the advice may be useless, in hindsight.

Of course it is.

The 75% are subject to the laws of the jungle.

"Due diligence" would have told you that.

I and you are second class citizens

Unless you have qualified for a Thai passport you are NOT a Thai citizen, and yes, all farangs are "second class" in LOS. How many zillions of times has it been said on these pages that our money is welcome in LOS, but us less so?

The lesson I learned in LOS over many, many years is never, never, never "invest" any money in LOS that I can't afford to lose.

It is heartening to know there are people like you who are so clued up on the Thai system. Somewhat less enthralling is the contempt in which you hold those who do not have your knowledge on the subject matter. Many people are coming to Thailand believing at least some of the hype and believing they can invest their money and that a system of justice exists that will not support scammers, thieves and cheats. Unfortunately the Thai system of justice, bent, corrupt gangs of lawyers who persecute foreigners and any lawyer who dares represent them, and judges who do not even try to apply the law in favour of a foreigner almost as if it is a loss of face on the whole country that a Thai could be a cheat, corrupt or otherwise scamming foreigners. The abject racism and scale of the problem is very much not know by all and sundry though I accept if you now know how to search and pick the right keywords you will no doubt find the horror stories.

The fact is most buyers are absolutely not aware of the facts as you know them or as I know them now. They are lied to by the TAT, lied to by the property industry, lied to by propaganda encouraging them to invest in the property industry, invest in Thailand, invest, invest, invest. One might be led to believe that with all the effort put into advertising Thailand as being a wonderful place to invest that there might actually be some laws that go to protect those who benefit the country by investing.

The reality is that you are on a hiding to a racist nothing here. Do not invest is right. Do not invest and do not believe a soul here because the lies are so plentiful it is impossible to find the truth that might lie somewhere. It certainly does not lie in the justice system that deserves to lead the Phuket property market into the annihilation because as a foreigner you will be targeted, scammed, lied to and led up the garden path by lawyers who have no morals and even less ethics.

However that is the story that needs to get out and your condescending tone to a retired couple is really unnecessary and in poor taste.

Sorry to be condescending, but the point of my post is to warn other persons coming to Thailand that all is not rosy in LOS.

Frankly though, I wonder at anyone that apparently invests significant amounts of money in a foreign country without doing significant research first. Would anyone that has been caught in a Thai scam have been so willing to give away their money in Nigeria or Sudan, for instance?

[slipperx]

Some extra background to my case:

the Judgement also said that we should be charged for illegally trying to get around the restrictions on foreigners owning land.

The logic of this last point was due to us subscribing collectively for 49% of the company shares. These shares were be held for the duration of the lease ( and any extension), and to be returned once the lease expired. The lease structure was prepared by a Thai law firm, which is on the list of lawyers recommended by a number of Embassies, today. It was approved by each investor's personal law firm, in 2004. It has been used by 100's if not 1000's of apartment units sold, on Phuket alone. At Appeal, the Thai business man added an extra charge, that we had tried to defraud him. The irony of this part is he is a very successful business man, selling product to major non- Thai developers on Phuket. At the time of writing, there are apartments listed for resale, with similar lease paperwork registered in place. I have asked several developers and Property agencies if, what they are selling is legal . The answer is 'no problem'.

Now that our Judgement has been public, since early 2014, a number of law firms are reversing their long- standing advice. STILL, a number of law firms continue to say that there is nothing wrong our paperwork, except "maybe you should use a different set up for protecting your lease renewal option". so, legal advice in some cases is good for today - but you had better not go to court and have it reviewed by a Judge, as he may rule that you have nothing.

I think that the lesson learned is, no matter how careful you are with investing your money, in property, here in Thailland, no matter how good the advice you obtain from a law firm and a property agency, the advice may be useless, in hindsight. Because the system of regulations are not reliable. As Bill Barnett described it, you are safe if you buy from a major developer. The problem, is that, on Phuket, the major developers account for at most, 25% of the units sold. The 75% are subject to the laws of the jungle. And, although I love the country and would never leave, I and you are second class citizens. Excuse the length of these 2 posts. I hope there is some guidance i

maybe you should use a different set up for protecting your lease renewal option

In other words, you should use a different device for circumventing Thai law.

no matter how careful you are with investing your money, in property, here in Thailland

Had you invested in your own country and use the proceedings to live in LOS, you'd be sitting pretty now.

no matter how good the advice you obtain from a law firm and a property agency, the advice may be useless, in hindsight.

Of course it is.

The 75% are subject to the laws of the jungle.

"Due diligence" would have told you that.

I and you are second class citizens

Unless you have qualified for a Thai passport you are NOT a Thai citizen, and yes, all farangs are "second class" in LOS. How many zillions of times has it been said on these pages that our money is welcome in LOS, but us less so?

The lesson I learned in LOS over many, many years is never, never, never "invest" any money in LOS that I can't afford to lose.

It is heartening to know there are people like you who are so clued up on the Thai system. Somewhat less enthralling is the contempt in which you hold those who do not have your knowledge on the subject matter. Many people are coming to Thailand believing at least some of the hype and believing they can invest their money and that a system of justice exists that will not support scammers, thieves and cheats. Unfortunately the Thai system of justice, bent, corrupt gangs of lawyers who persecute foreigners and any lawyer who dares represent them, and judges who do not even try to apply the law in favour of a foreigner almost as if it is a loss of face on the whole country that a Thai could be a cheat, corrupt or otherwise scamming foreigners. The abject racism and scale of the problem is very much not know by all and sundry though I accept if you now know how to search and pick the right keywords you will no doubt find the horror stories.

The fact is most buyers are absolutely not aware of the facts as you know them or as I know them now. They are lied to by the TAT, lied to by the property industry, lied to by propaganda encouraging them to invest in the property industry, invest in Thailand, invest, invest, invest. One might be led to believe that with all the effort put into advertising Thailand as being a wonderful place to invest that there might actually be some laws that go to protect those who benefit the country by investing.

The reality is that you are on a hiding to a racist nothing here. Do not invest is right. Do not invest and do not believe a soul here because the lies are so plentiful it is impossible to find the truth that might lie somewhere. It certainly does not lie in the justice system that deserves to lead the Phuket property market into the annihilation because as a foreigner you will be targeted, scammed, lied to and led up the garden path by lawyers who have no morals and even less ethics.

However that is the story that needs to get out and your condescending tone to a retired couple is really unnecessary and in poor taste.

Sorry to be condescending, but the point of my post is to warn other persons coming to Thailand that all is not rosy in LOS.

Frankly though, I wonder at anyone that apparently invests significant amounts of money in a foreign country without doing significant research first. Would anyone that has been caught in a Thai scam have been so willing to give away their money in Nigeria or Sudan, for instance?

No I am sure they would not because those countries are very well known for their general lawlessness and don't pretend to be anything else. The situation here is probably notice better but the difference is the efforts made by the country to seek foreign investment and pretend it is a country worthy of its place as a welcoming country. None of that bull is contradicted by the Embassies that must know thecreal situation but step back from ever criticizing or publicicing that the place is just a lot of pretty wrapping paper around a country that is unfit for any investment except at corporation level and even that is debatable. The image is a shocking and perpetuated sham

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[xylophone]

Some extra background to my case:

the Judgement also said that we should be charged for illegally trying to get around the restrictions on foreigners owning land.

The logic of this last point was due to us subscribing collectively for 49% of the company shares. These shares were be held for the duration of the lease ( and any extension), and to be returned once the lease expired. The lease structure was prepared by a Thai law firm, which is on the list of lawyers recommended by a number of Embassies, today. It was approved by each investor's personal law firm, in 2004. It has been used by 100's if not 1000's of apartment units sold, on Phuket alone. At Appeal, the Thai business man added an extra charge, that we had tried to defraud him. The irony of this part is he is a very successful business man, selling product to major non- Thai developers on Phuket. At the time of writing, there are apartments listed for resale, with similar lease paperwork registered in place. I have asked several developers and Property agencies if, what they are selling is legal . The answer is 'no problem'.

Now that our Judgement has been public, since early 2014, a number of law firms are reversing their long- standing advice. STILL, a number of law firms continue to say that there is nothing wrong our paperwork, except "maybe you should use a different set up for protecting your lease renewal option". so, legal advice in some cases is good for today - but you had better not go to court and have it reviewed by a Judge, as he may rule that you have nothing.

I think that the lesson learned is, no matter how careful you are with investing your money, in property, here in Thailland, no matter how good the advice you obtain from a law firm and a property agency, the advice may be useless, in hindsight. Because the system of regulations are not reliable. As Bill Barnett described it, you are safe if you buy from a major developer. The problem, is that, on Phuket, the major developers account for at most, 25% of the units sold. The 75% are subject to the laws of the jungle. And, although I love the country and would never leave, I and you are second class citizens. Excuse the length of these 2 posts. I hope there is some guidance i

maybe you should use a different set up for protecting your lease renewal option

In other words, you should use a different device for circumventing Thai law.

no matter how careful you are with investing your money, in property, here in Thailland

Had you invested in your own country and use the proceedings to live in LOS, you'd be sitting pretty now.

no matter how good the advice you obtain from a law firm and a property agency, the advice may be useless, in hindsight.

Of course it is.

The 75% are subject to the laws of the jungle.

"Due diligence" would have told you that.

I and you are second class citizens

Unless you have qualified for a Thai passport you are NOT a Thai citizen, and yes, all farangs are "second class" in LOS. How many zillions of times has it been said on these pages that our money is welcome in LOS, but us less so?

The lesson I learned in LOS over many, many years is never, never, never "invest" any money in LOS that I can't afford to lose.

It is heartening to know there are people like you who are so clued up on the Thai system. Somewhat less enthralling is the contempt in which you hold those who do not have your knowledge on the subject matter. Many people are coming to Thailand believing at least some of the hype and believing they can invest their money and that a system of justice exists that will not support scammers, thieves and cheats. Unfortunately the Thai system of justice, bent, corrupt gangs of lawyers who persecute foreigners and any lawyer who dares represent them, and judges who do not even try to apply the law in favour of a foreigner almost as if it is a loss of face on the whole country that a Thai could be a cheat, corrupt or otherwise scamming foreigners. The abject racism and scale of the problem is very much not know by all and sundry though I accept if you now know how to search and pick the right keywords you will no doubt find the horror stories.

The fact is most buyers are absolutely not aware of the facts as you know them or as I know them now. They are lied to by the TAT, lied to by the property industry, lied to by propaganda encouraging them to invest in the property industry, invest in Thailand, invest, invest, invest. One might be led to believe that with all the effort put into advertising Thailand as being a wonderful place to invest that there might actually be some laws that go to protect those who benefit the country by investing.

The reality is that you are on a hiding to a racist nothing here. Do not invest is right. Do not invest and do not believe a soul here because the lies are so plentiful it is impossible to find the truth that might lie somewhere. It certainly does not lie in the justice system that deserves to lead the Phuket property market into the annihilation because as a foreigner you will be targeted, scammed, lied to and led up the garden path by lawyers who have no morals and even less ethics.

However that is the story that needs to get out and your condescending tone to a retired couple is really unnecessary and in poor taste.

I have a great deal of sympathy for "sendintheclowns" and the situation he now finds himself in.

It is all very well for other posters to say to this guy (couple) that they should have done their due diligence, however what do you do when you want to find out about the law in a country and how it applies to property you are buying; well you go to see a lawyer in a reputable law firm, and even better if It is a well-known law firm and is well used by farangs, so that's what they did.

The fact that this law firm decided to put in place an illegal structure, and the fact that this illegal structure has been used in one form or another for a great deal of property purchases in Thailand would be unknown to this couple, mainly because it seems the norm; i.e. it has happened hundreds if not thousands of times already. So even if they did their own "due diligence" they would have found that this very structure was being used by just about all and sundry (legal firms that is) and was being recommended by them as "legal", so where do you go from there?

They followed what just about everybody would do with regards to the legal processes and they were stitched up by the very legal profession that was supposed to protect them and I'm afraid there is no "antidote" for this and no amount of doing your own due diligence would make the slightest bit of difference.

As I have posted before, I bought property here when I first came over and I relied upon a couple of law firms, and many farangs who had bought here and who were perfectly happy with their purchases, and with all of the investigations/due diligence I conducted, there was nothing in it which would lead me to believe that I would be stitched up by the legal system and developers for that matter, not to mention the justice system (I wasn't as it happens and I also made a profit on two properties, but that was probably more luck than judgement).

Now of course we know differently, this because there are/have been many cases coming to light, BUT, and here is the rub, you can still find lawyers/legal firms who will recommend purchasing a property utilising the nominee/share reallocation method, so newcomers are still at the mercy of a corrupt system, and that really is the crux of the matter.

[EJK]

Old news old scam welcome to Thailand

People are generally very good although if you mix with the wrong woman you will find yourself paying the cost

They have no morals and they go to Temple thinking there forgiven..

Not worry her end will be not a good one

[JoopJoop]

Having performed satisfactory due diligence and ultimately being scammed by the very people and profession that should be protecting ones interests, I have to say, at the end of the day, it came down to the woman.....the Mother of your children. She ultimately was the one that precipitated this massive <deleted> up.

Most dudes here, as with the OP chose the wrong woman.

I'd say it's that fact alone that will make or break your life here. Keeping sharp and knowing that all others are snakes in the grass should keep you sound.

[MaeJoMTB]

Having performed satisfactory due diligence and ultimately being scammed by the very people and profession that should be protecting ones interests, I have to say, at the end of the day, it came down to the woman.....the Mother of your children. She ultimately was the one that precipitated this massive <deleted> up.

Most dudes here, as with the OP chose the wrong woman.

I'd say it's that fact alone that will make or break your life here. Keeping sharp and knowing that all others are snakes in the grass should keep you sound.

Except ..... every woman who can grab your cash is 'the wrong woman'.

Keep your money well out of their reach, and almost every woman is 'the right woman'.

[thaibeachlovers]

Some extra background to my case:

the Judgement also said that we should be charged for illegally trying to get around the restrictions on foreigners owning land.

The logic of this last point was due to us subscribing collectively for 49% of the company shares. These shares were be held for the duration of the lease ( and any extension), and to be returned once the lease expired. The lease structure was prepared by a Thai law firm, which is on the list of lawyers recommended by a number of Embassies, today. It was approved by each investor's personal law firm, in 2004. It has been used by 100's if not 1000's of apartment units sold, on Phuket alone. At Appeal, the Thai business man added an extra charge, that we had tried to defraud him. The irony of this part is he is a very successful business man, selling product to major non- Thai developers on Phuket. At the time of writing, there are apartments listed for resale, with similar lease paperwork registered in place. I have asked several developers and Property agencies if, what they are selling is legal . The answer is 'no problem'.

Now that our Judgement has been public, since early 2014, a number of law firms are reversing their long- standing advice. STILL, a number of law firms continue to say that there is nothing wrong our paperwork, except "maybe you should use a different set up for protecting your lease renewal option". so, legal advice in some cases is good for today - but you had better not go to court and have it reviewed by a Judge, as he may rule that you have nothing.

I think that the lesson learned is, no matter how careful you are with investing your money, in property, here in Thailland, no matter how good the advice you obtain from a law firm and a property agency, the advice may be useless, in hindsight. Because the system of regulations are not reliable. As Bill Barnett described it, you are safe if you buy from a major developer. The problem, is that, on Phuket, the major developers account for at most, 25% of the units sold. The 75% are subject to the laws of the jungle. And, although I love the country and would never leave, I and you are second class citizens. Excuse the length of these 2 posts. I hope there is some guidance i

maybe you should use a different set up for protecting your lease renewal option

In other words, you should use a different device for circumventing Thai law.

no matter how careful you are with investing your money, in property, here in Thailland

Had you invested in your own country and use the proceedings to live in LOS, you'd be sitting pretty now.

no matter how good the advice you obtain from a law firm and a property agency, the advice may be useless, in hindsight.

Of course it is.

The 75% are subject to the laws of the jungle.

"Due diligence" would have told you that.

I and you are second class citizens

Unless you have qualified for a Thai passport you are NOT a Thai citizen, and yes, all farangs are "second class" in LOS. How many zillions of times has it been said on these pages that our money is welcome in LOS, but us less so?

The lesson I learned in LOS over many, many years is never, never, never "invest" any money in LOS that I can't afford to lose.

It is heartening to know there are people like you who are so clued up on the Thai system. Somewhat less enthralling is the contempt in which you hold those who do not have your knowledge on the subject matter. Many people are coming to Thailand believing at least some of the hype and believing they can invest their money and that a system of justice exists that will not support scammers, thieves and cheats. Unfortunately the Thai system of justice, bent, corrupt gangs of lawyers who persecute foreigners and any lawyer who dares represent them, and judges who do not even try to apply the law in favour of a foreigner almost as if it is a loss of face on the whole country that a Thai could be a cheat, corrupt or otherwise scamming foreigners. The abject racism and scale of the problem is very much not know by all and sundry though I accept if you now know how to search and pick the right keywords you will no doubt find the horror stories.

The fact is most buyers are absolutely not aware of the facts as you know them or as I know them now. They are lied to by the TAT, lied to by the property industry, lied to by propaganda encouraging them to invest in the property industry, invest in Thailand, invest, invest, invest. One might be led to believe that with all the effort put into advertising Thailand as being a wonderful place to invest that there might actually be some laws that go to protect those who benefit the country by investing.

The reality is that you are on a hiding to a racist nothing here. Do not invest is right. Do not invest and do not believe a soul here because the lies are so plentiful it is impossible to find the truth that might lie somewhere. It certainly does not lie in the justice system that deserves to lead the Phuket property market into the annihilation because as a foreigner you will be targeted, scammed, lied to and led up the garden path by lawyers who have no morals and even less ethics.

However that is the story that needs to get out and your condescending tone to a retired couple is really unnecessary and in poor taste.

I have a great deal of sympathy for "sendintheclowns" and the situation he now finds himself in.

It is all very well for other posters to say to this guy (couple) that they should have done their due diligence, however what do you do when you want to find out about the law in a country and how it applies to property you are buying; well you go to see a lawyer in a reputable law firm, and even better if It is a well-known law firm and is well used by farangs, so that's what they did.

The fact that this law firm decided to put in place an illegal structure, and the fact that this illegal structure has been used in one form or another for a great deal of property purchases in Thailand would be unknown to this couple, mainly because it seems the norm; i.e. it has happened hundreds if not thousands of times already. So even if they did their own "due diligence" they would have found that this very structure was being used by just about all and sundry (legal firms that is) and was being recommended by them as "legal", so where do you go from there?

They followed what just about everybody would do with regards to the legal processes and they were stitched up by the very legal profession that was supposed to protect them and I'm afraid there is no "antidote" for this and no amount of doing your own due diligence would make the slightest bit of difference.

As I have posted before, I bought property here when I first came over and I relied upon a couple of law firms, and many farangs who had bought here and who were perfectly happy with their purchases, and with all of the investigations/due diligence I conducted, there was nothing in it which would lead me to believe that I would be stitched up by the legal system and developers for that matter, not to mention the justice system (I wasn't as it happens and I also made a profit on two properties, but that was probably more luck than judgement).

Now of course we know differently, this because there are/have been many cases coming to light, BUT, and here is the rub, you can still find lawyers/legal firms who will recommend purchasing a property utilising the nominee/share reallocation method, so newcomers are still at the mercy of a corrupt system, and that really is the crux of the matter.

I appreciate what you say, but even though I never intended to buy property/ business in LOS, even 23 years ago I was fully aware just from talking to people and reading ( no internet then ) that it was not possible to own anything other than a condo on the 49% deal.

I suspect that the people in question rushed into the situation, relying only on the lawyers words and not asking any expats, or even long time tourists as to the reality.

These days, I'm sure if one googles "scams in Thailand" one would find all the information that one could hope for re the real situation.

Regardless, if this thread saves even one farang from making a mistake, it will have been worth it.

[xylophone]

maybe you should use a different set up for protecting your lease renewal option

In other words, you should use a different device for circumventing Thai law.

no matter how careful you are with investing your money, in property, here in Thailland

Had you invested in your own country and use the proceedings to live in LOS, you'd be sitting pretty now.

no matter how good the advice you obtain from a law firm and a property agency, the advice may be useless, in hindsight.

Of course it is.

The 75% are subject to the laws of the jungle.

"Due diligence" would have told you that.

I and you are second class citizens

Unless you have qualified for a Thai passport you are NOT a Thai citizen, and yes, all farangs are "second class" in LOS. How many zillions of times has it been said on these pages that our money is welcome in LOS, but us less so?

The lesson I learned in LOS over many, many years is never, never, never "invest" any money in LOS that I can't afford to lose.

It is heartening to know there are people like you who are so clued up on the Thai system. Somewhat less enthralling is the contempt in which you hold those who do not have your knowledge on the subject matter. Many people are coming to Thailand believing at least some of the hype and believing they can invest their money and that a system of justice exists that will not support scammers, thieves and cheats. Unfortunately the Thai system of justice, bent, corrupt gangs of lawyers who persecute foreigners and any lawyer who dares represent them, and judges who do not even try to apply the law in favour of a foreigner almost as if it is a loss of face on the whole country that a Thai could be a cheat, corrupt or otherwise scamming foreigners. The abject racism and scale of the problem is very much not know by all and sundry though I accept if you now know how to search and pick the right keywords you will no doubt find the horror stories.

The fact is most buyers are absolutely not aware of the facts as you know them or as I know them now. They are lied to by the TAT, lied to by the property industry, lied to by propaganda encouraging them to invest in the property industry, invest in Thailand, invest, invest, invest. One might be led to believe that with all the effort put into advertising Thailand as being a wonderful place to invest that there might actually be some laws that go to protect those who benefit the country by investing.

The reality is that you are on a hiding to a racist nothing here. Do not invest is right. Do not invest and do not believe a soul here because the lies are so plentiful it is impossible to find the truth that might lie somewhere. It certainly does not lie in the justice system that deserves to lead the Phuket property market into the annihilation because as a foreigner you will be targeted, scammed, lied to and led up the garden path by lawyers who have no morals and even less ethics.

However that is the story that needs to get out and your condescending tone to a retired couple is really unnecessary and in poor taste.

I have a great deal of sympathy for "sendintheclowns" and the situation he now finds himself in.

It is all very well for other posters to say to this guy (couple) that they should have done their due diligence, however what do you do when you want to find out about the law in a country and how it applies to property you are buying; well you go to see a lawyer in a reputable law firm, and even better if It is a well-known law firm and is well used by farangs, so that's what they did.

The fact that this law firm decided to put in place an illegal structure, and the fact that this illegal structure has been used in one form or another for a great deal of property purchases in Thailand would be unknown to this couple, mainly because it seems the norm; i.e. it has happened hundreds if not thousands of times already. So even if they did their own "due diligence" they would have found that this very structure was being used by just about all and sundry (legal firms that is) and was being recommended by them as "legal", so where do you go from there?

They followed what just about everybody would do with regards to the legal processes and they were stitched up by the very legal profession that was supposed to protect them and I'm afraid there is no "antidote" for this and no amount of doing your own due diligence would make the slightest bit of difference.

As I have posted before, I bought property here when I first came over and I relied upon a couple of law firms, and many farangs who had bought here and who were perfectly happy with their purchases, and with all of the investigations/due diligence I conducted, there was nothing in it which would lead me to believe that I would be stitched up by the legal system and developers for that matter, not to mention the justice system (I wasn't as it happens and I also made a profit on two properties, but that was probably more luck than judgement).

Now of course we know differently, this because there are/have been many cases coming to light, BUT, and here is the rub, you can still find lawyers/legal firms who will recommend purchasing a property utilising the nominee/share reallocation method, so newcomers are still at the mercy of a corrupt system, and that really is the crux of the matter.

I appreciate what you say, but even though I never intended to buy property/ business in LOS, even 23 years ago I was fully aware just from talking to people and reading ( no internet then ) that it was not possible to own anything other than a condo on the 49% deal.

I suspect that the people in question rushed into the situation, relying only on the lawyers words and not asking any expats, or even long time tourists as to the reality.

These days, I'm sure if one googles "scams in Thailand" one would find all the information that one could hope for re the real situation.

Regardless, if this thread saves even one farang from making a mistake, it will have been worth it.

I guess we will have to agree to disagree, although I also appreciate what you say.

I followed a similar route to you when I came here and asked lawyers and legal firms, real estate agents and developers and many of the farangs who owned houses in the Soi in which I bought mine, just to make sure I had everything right, and sure enough all of them told me that buying a property through a company was a good way to go, others suggesting that a 30+30+30 year lease would be fine and so on, so even the farangs who had bought houses "illegally" were still not aware that they had, and still aren't. I know this because a few of them still argue with me that their structure (nominee company) is legal because their lawyer told them so.

So if the independent lawyers, Legal firms, developers, accountants and so on are still advocating an illegal system and farang friends whom you ask are still sure that what they have bought has been done legally, then you are pretty well stuffed. And it's all very well saying use the Internet, but many of the people who have bought houses this way are still convinced that theirs is the right way, so the Internet will not give you a definitive answer.

To further add fuel to the fire, if the lawyers, legal firms, accountants, Justice system, police, military and many government officials are corrupt, then there is not much in the way of assistance that can help a farang once he has been lied to.

[Lampang2]

found girl same age as you guys and not from pattaya or bar !!!!!!

That's crazy talk!

[emoji1]

[fang37]

Only Lanpangese folks is crazy.

[Heng]

Love makes people stupid, and it's way too easy to fall in love in a foreign country. And that's why it stings, because the love part is real (between two people, sometimes more, and of course the love of money).

:-)

[Nomyai]

Foreign Investment- does buying or building a house for a former bargirl or the like qualify as Foreign Investment like a Toyota Car Plant...........................................hahahaha. Maybe you can recover assets using Freign Investment Treaties...................hHAHAHAHA.

Sorry this is all so silly. I really cant believe this stuff happens so regularly.

[AZBill]

This doesn't happen to everyone and there are good Thai women. Getting out of Thailand is a good idea though. I'm ten years in and all is good living in the U.S. My wife has learned many things about the value of money and work. She's also one of the most honest and honorable people I have ever known. We have many Thai-American couples as friends here and most are very normal and happy. Not a fat or bald guy among them! That's a myth perpetuated by western women so they don't need to face rejection head on.

[bander]

Thailand is L.O.S. (land of scam)

Don't bring money to Thailand, keep them in a safe country far away from your Thai wife.

Don't buy any condo, house or property in your wife or company name.

Rental is the only option for expats if you want to live a long and healthy life here.