Forensic team to testify in Koh Tao murder trial

[AleG]

One thing is crystal clear. If the rtp had a DNA match there wouldn't have been all this subterfuge. They would have placed it on the table and let the defence independently test it. It beggars belief that anyone believes the rtp.

They did allow the defense to independently test it, the defense refused to do so.

Sigh! You keep repeating this, and I need to keep correcting what may mislead the casual reader. The RTP did not offer independent testing of the semen sample. They claimed (unconvincingly) that it was "all used up". They offered degraded replicated DNA from an intermediate stage in the testing process that cannot be shown with confidence to have any relationship to any original semen sample.

You too are repeating as fact the ad-hoc explanation for the defense to drop their long pursued request to retest the DNA evidence.

Unless of course you can offer any credible source to support the claim that "They offered degraded replicated DNA from an intermediate stage in the testing process"; to save time don't bother with the article quoting a witness testifying that all DNA samples were replicated, because that doesn't mean that there are no original samples also available.

[Madaussie]

A wider angle for you..

Hannah-Witheridge-FB-v2-hoe-web.jpg

Thanks. But so you see the sharp edges/angles on that piece of wood that was lying there and the police picked up? And compare that to the other photos where the wood appears to have been rounded at the edges? And the angle that the wood is lying is different on the different pics. Makes me wonder why the police were happy to have that little bit of investigating filmed?

That little bit filmed was later on possibly as there was already flowers placed for David and Hannah and there was also Foreigners walking all over the place

[Fat Haggis]

GB has removed all doubt on his trolling... The guys has gone from objective to insane.

The hoe has a chip in it GB,.. Also, how do they have David and Hannah's DNA? The defense? You're that clueless, eh.

There's still no evidence credible against the B2 at this point and you can't help but squak about things you clearly can't even follow much less draw your own conclusion from. You're effectively what I like to call "blinded by desire" ... Not surprising, similar to the killers on Sairee last year. I can't wait until the real evidence is put fourth.. Your silence will be worth it's weight in gold!

Well not this one which was taken near the crime scene.

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2014/09/15/1410782612391_wps_30_KOH_TAO_THAILAND_SEPTEMBE.jpg

Did you notice that the Dog Food is not in this picture and like the one you believe is the true photo? Anyone can make a picture of a Garden Hoe and say it came from the crime. Or at least anyone with a Dog can.

No need to call anyone names here, unless you want this forum shut down. A civilized person with a brain doesn't have to use childish name calling to get a point across.

yep, pretty much the same way anyone can take a still from a cctv camera and claim it's proof of a persons whereabouts

[berybert]

Look at the rock by the hoe.

Zoom in if you need to, I'm pretty sure that Aleg and GB can be seen crawling underneath it.

[RWA]

Take a look at the clip at 5.10 it shows the RTP picking up this piece of wood

Watched it. That wood does not look like the more rounded piece of wood in the photos linked with my post.

Not saying your wrong, just for me I'm not convinced, the supposed hammer head has the same markings as the concrete.

Catsanddogs, I'm gonna join you now (opening my last "Domain de la Banniere" and have a glass with you)

Cheers!

ThailandChilli is right!

The cop @5:20 is really picking up "our hammer" that is only piece of wood and that "claw" a piece of concrete all right!

It is really just the angle and perspective of that one shot, that makes this hammer illusion.

I will PM you both this images when I overlayed them and put them on the same direction and perspective (angle), you will see it clearly then.

Also, on the second look at "your" pic, you will notice that that hammer would be out of proportion (see it below)

Thailandchilli, you were quick, thank you!

(btw, this is what I love on TV. How the bunch of insightful, smart people, often with cool sense of humor, sharing info, knowledge, experience, ideas, etc., in constructive discussion and helping manner)

[catsanddogs]

Take a look at the clip at 5.10 it shows the RTP picking up this piece of wood

Watched it. That wood does not look like the more rounded piece of wood in the photos linked with my post.

Not saying your wrong, just for me I'm not convinced, the supposed hammer head has the same markings as the concrete.

Catsanddogs, I'm gonna join you now (opening my last "Domain de la Banniere" and have a glass with you)

Cheers!

ThailandChilli is right!

The cop @5:20 is really picking up "our hammer" that is only piece of wood and that "claw" a piece of concrete all right!

It is really just the angle and perspective of that one shot, that makes this hammer illusion.

I will PM you both this images when I overlayed them and put them on the same direction and perspective (angle), you will see it clearly then.

Also, on the second look at "your" pic, you will notice that that hammer would be out of proportion (see it below)

Thailandchilli, you were quick, thank you!

(btw, this is what I love on TV. How the bunch of insightful, smart people, often with cool sense of humor, sharing info, knowledge, experience, ideas, etc., in constructive discussion and helping manner)

Cheers RWA! Gone and got my hopes raised and now feel a tad silly . So much want this case to move on with transparency and justice like most on here but the news coming out of the court is so painfully slow. God knows how the victims parents must be feeling. The B2 still haven't finished giving their testimonies, which I imaged would be first on the agenda. Thank you for your uplifting post.

[balo]

hoehoe1.jpg

the original hoe below (notice the broken corner ) and hoe in the news clip above.

I do not understand your logic as we only see one side of the hoe at any given time. One side has a broken edge and my guess is the other side isn't broken - so the photo is of the unbroken side and the other photo shows the broken side - simple.

You must be looking at different pictures than I am it is clearly two different hoes , look at the video also 1 hoe is not broken

I agree when looking at the pictures they look different.

But then the big question remains : Why would RTP switch hoes when the whole world is watching ? They know that pictures of the murder weapon has been published all over internet. Then someone comes up with a brilliant idea to swich the hoes and plant some DNA on it? Doesnt make sense.

[Aj Mick]

One thing is crystal clear. If the rtp had a DNA match there wouldn't have been all this subterfuge. They would have placed it on the table and let the defence independently test it. It beggars belief that anyone believes the rtp.

They did allow the defense to independently test it, the defense refused to do so.

The did not refuse to do so. They have chosen not to do so.

[IslandLover]

hoehoe1.jpg

the original hoe below (notice the broken corner ) and hoe in the news clip above.

Leave the detective work to capable people; that is a leave in front of the blade, it's not a hole on the blade.

What was that you said....................yes leave it to capable people shall we

From the Washington Post on September 15, 2015:

A rusty hoe, its blade broken and caked in gore, lay nearby.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2015/09/15/rape-murder-and-a-deepening-mystery-on-a-tiny-tropical-island/?postshare=5391442327496335

[Aj Mick]

Take a look at the clip at 5.10 it shows the RTP picking up this piece of wood

In light of all the Thai media's interest in the murders a year ago, the current paucity of reporting seems odd…..

[webfact]

KOH TAO
Hoe, clothing become focus of case
Chularat Saengpassa,
Suwannee Bandisak
The Nation


Family members of the two Myanmar defendants show up at the Koh Samui Provincial Court yesterday to listen to the court hearing on the much-publicised murder of two British tourists on Koh Tao last year.

KOH SAMUI: -- TWO KEY AGENCIES have come to the same conclusion that the DNA of two Britons who were brutally killed on Koh Tao last year appeared on a hoe believed to be the murder weapon.

But just one, the Central Institute of Forensic Science (CIFS), has publicly announced that the hoe did not contain the DNA of the two defendants, both Myanmar nationals.

"As far as I know, the police report does not mention whether the DNA of the defendants was found on the hoe," Dr Worawee Waiyawuth, a forensic physician at the CIFS, said after testifying before the Koh Samui Provincial Court as a witness yesterday. Khunying Porntip Rojanasunan, director-general of the CIFS, said the police had relied on the tests conducted by the Office of Police Forensic Science.

Three officials from the CIFS yesterday took the witness stand in defence of the two Myanmar migrant workers, 22-year-old Zaw Lin and Wai Phyo.

Despite initially confessing to the double murders, the two defendants now insist they are innocent and that they had been coerced into confession.

The chief judge had allowed Porntip to re-test the hoe at the request of defence lawyers.

"We received the items of evidence for this case on July 17," Worawee said yesterday.

He reckoned that some DNA traces could disappear from the evidence over time.

The shocking murders of the two Britons took place on Koh Tao of Surat Thani province in September last year.

Holder of a doctorate degree from Germany, Worawee yesterday confirmed the credibility of the CIFS by explaining that it had won internationally recognised ISO 17025 certification.

He said an analyst at the CIFS had examined the DNA without knowing whom the DNA samples belonged to and which cases the DNA test results would be used for. After the examination was completed, another official would compare the DNA while fully aware for which case the results would be used.

"Then, I checked all the documents before signing to endorse the results of the test," Worawee said.

Nakhon Chomphuchat, a lawyer for the defendants, yesterday called Pol Colonel Krissada Mitruamsap from the CIFS to the witness stand.

During the court session, Nakhon pointed out that police had not yet examined the underpants of the victims as evidence items. Krissada said the underpants and shorts should in fact be used as evidence.

"They are needed in the process to identify the culprits," Krissada said.

This biology expert has solved many big cases in Thailand before, including the murder of Dr Phassaporn Boonka-whosemsanti, whose body was dissected by her husband. The CIFS has just received the clothing and other evidence for examination.

The families of the two defendants also appeared in the courtroom yesterday. The defendants, throughout the court session, did not show any sign of stress.

Today, a DNA-collection expert from Australia will testify in court in defence of the defendants.

Source: http://www.nationmultimedia.com/national/Hoe-clothing-become-focus-of-case-30269346.html


-- The Nation 2015-09-23

[Aj Mick]

hoehoe1.jpg

the original hoe below (notice the broken corner ) and hoe in the news clip above.

Leave the detective work to capable people; that is a leave in front of the blade, it's not a hole on the blade.

So AeG, you seem to have plenty to say…… Would you regard yourself as capable.

Your unerring support of those whose lack of professionalism, ineptness, and inability / unwillingness to answer questions that puts their capability into doubt, along with your own inclination to "muddle the waters" and and unwillingness to give straight answers to questions, makes you seem rather disingenuous.

[fritzzz25]

OK but how do you explain her DNA on the handle?

This is new

Maybe she fended off one blow and skin cells attached to the handle, maybe she didn't and she was simply hit by the handle in addition to the head of the hoe, maybe she grabbed it when being attacked, maybe it was used to restrain her and pressed against her body, maybe it was left over her body for some time, plenty of possible explanations.

Thats alot of maybe's for you AleG.

Maybe you would have expected the B2 DNA to be on the weapon. Oh know you told us last week it had been washed off. My apologies I just remembered.

Do you know what is the likelihood of transfer DNA on wooden objects to be detected?

I did some research and from what I found it is less than 40% under ideal conditions: sterilized wood, 60 full seconds of firm grasping, no contaminants or further handling, straight into a sealed bag and to the lab for analysis.

What is the conclusion from all this? The often left out quote from the article that's been making the rounds here:

The prosecution asked Mr Waiyawuth if the third, incomplete, profile could belong to one of the suspects. He replied that only a quarter of the indicators from one of the suspects matched the partial profile.

The prosecution said: “So his participation cannot be ruled out.”

Mr Waiyawith replied: “No, but he cannot be included either.”

The results of the DNA analysis of the hoe can't rule out or incriminate the defendants, so in that regard the situation is the same as before the retesting.

You did some research? Or you read some research that someone else did? Two different things.

[BeautifulPain]

Not many updates out yet from today hopefully more reports will pop up.

I still cannot believe they did not test the hoe after they believed it to be one of or the murder weapon. Seriously how in gods name is that even possible ?

The police got a confession so let's assume this was a true representation of what happened. Then they get the B2 to do a re enactment, clearly no matter if you think the B2 are innocent or guilty, unless you are a delusional blind man/woman neither confession or re enactment fits with the evidence that has been shown in court.

With the DNA on the hoe it shows us that both Hannah and David handled this but only ( from what I have read ) Hannah appears to have been attacked with it, why have we not heard/seen in any rtp reports / b2 confessions a legitimate scenario on how David was attacked?

The only reason I can see the B2 being guilty but lying in parts of the confession/re enactment is if they were protecting people who were also involved. I can see no other plausible reason for them to lie though I welcome any theories on the matter.

I still think the defence must explain certain points, something is missing that would convince me of their complete innocence, perhaps it will be forthcoming over the next few days, but regardless of that if I was a judge residing over this case I simply could not find them guilty based on what we have seen in the media.

A question for those who think we have seen a fair trial and sound evidence that points towards guilty - if this was NS/Mon or any of those guys / Sean Mcanna, that were on trial with this evidence presented and the discrepancies/mistakes by the RTP, can you honestly say you would still lean towards a guilty verdict ?

The prosecution have not presented independent DNA evidence we have not seen one credible report, if they had it it would have been their opening and strongest evidence. They would have shoved it straight out there basically say g to the defence ok you may have things to contest but contest this independent undeniable evidence of your clients DNA been found inside one of the victims which places your clients at the scene of the crime involved without doubt with one of the deceased.

If they had done that this case would been much simpler, why they didn't I can only speculate on but I'll save that for another post.

[fritzzz25]

The prosecution never claimed that DNA from the hoe implicated the defendants, the results from the retesting... don't implicate the defendants, ergo, irrelevant.

The DNA I refereed to is from inside Witheridge, recovered during her autopsy, the one the defense choose not to contest directly because I don't think they want to have its validity verified.

Witnesses presenting evidence in court does not equal "unsubstantiated reports", much as you'd wish it to be so. What is unsubstantiated though is your accusation that the people that did so committed perjury.

There have been many conflicting reports of what has been said...statements retracted...contradicted....and blatently false delivered in the courtroom as reported in media and then minutely detailed by the heavy hitters in this thread.

Stealth loonodingle mad aussie etc...care to re entertain said reports? If we had proper recording mechanisms this would all be put to bed but i do remember you blowing your trumpet over the last year about waiting for the trial. Sir...this trial is full of shit. I believe you are a pretty smart guy. Answer khun Matt's questions please.

Conflicting statements and reports, as you pointed out, reported by the media; more often than not originating with the defense team who obviously has an incentive to discredit the investigation as much as possible and inflate any little fact or event in their favour.

As for khunmatts questions, first of I have already answered the questions, secondly by his past interactions with Balo I determined that he is not interested in an honest discussion, thirdly the moderators have repeatedly reminded that the discussion is not about forum members, it's about a court case and finally his questions are based on lies some people have been maliciously spreading about me.

In short, he is all the attention he deserves.

It comes down to the credibility of posters and the information they provide. Why would the moderators allow people to come on here and present obviously false information in order to derail a topic or provide "facts" that they cannot back up.

It would be like if I went to a school to learn a new skill and then I posted a review about how awesome they were at teaching me but yet I was someone who already had done that "skill" for several years previously. It would be outright dishonest of me and would show that my intentions are for an ulterior motive.......

[BeautifulPain]

I see that report states they received clothing and other evidence for testing, It will be interesting to see if they find the same DNA profile on the hoe and the clothes, that's if they are able to compare and be sure they are the same profile.

It also states that DNA can disintegrate over time, we know Hannah's DNA was on the handle, so I would imagine whoevers the other profile is on the handle must be strongly linked to wielding the hoe.

[GOLDBUGGY]

The prosecution never claimed that DNA from the hoe implicated the defendants, the results from the retesting... don't implicate the defendants, ergo, irrelevant.

The DNA I refereed to is from inside Witheridge, recovered during her autopsy, the one the defense choose not to contest directly because I don't think they want to have its validity verified.

Witnesses presenting evidence in court does not equal "unsubstantiated reports", much as you'd wish it to be so. What is unsubstantiated though is your accusation that the people that did so committed perjury.

There have been many conflicting reports of what has been said...statements retracted...contradicted....and blatently false delivered in the courtroom as reported in media and then minutely detailed by the heavy hitters in this thread.

Stealth loonodingle mad aussie etc...care to re entertain said reports? If we had proper recording mechanisms this would all be put to bed but i do remember you blowing your trumpet over the last year about waiting for the trial. Sir...this trial is full of shit. I believe you are a pretty smart guy. Answer khun Matt's questions please.

Conflicting statements and reports, as you pointed out, reported by the media; more often than not originating with the defense team who obviously has an incentive to discredit the investigation as much as possible and inflate any little fact or event in their favour.

As for khunmatts questions, first of I have already answered the questions, secondly by his past interactions with Balo I determined that he is not interested in an honest discussion, thirdly the moderators have repeatedly reminded that the discussion is not about forum members, it's about a court case and finally his questions are based on lies some people have been maliciously spreading about me.

In short, he is all the attention he deserves.

there's one under oath

• From the trial: Under oath Lieutenant Colonel Somsak Nurod stated he had spoken to the pathologist on the 2nd and 3rd Oct but after that had no further contact with him. The defense then produced a statement from the pathologist stating that Lieutenant Colonel Somsak Nurod had made two separate trips to meet him in late Oct and another on 18th Nov. The pathologist’s statement confirmed they talked about the hair found in Hannah’a hand. When challenged about this Lieutenant Colonel Somsak Nurod then admitted he had had further discussions with the pathologist but would not reveal what was said between them. http://www.eveningnews24.co.uk/news/senior_police_officers_give_contradictory_evidence_at_hannah_witheridge_murder_trial_1_4215995?utm_medium=twitter&utm_source=twitterfeed

Perjury is knowing saying a lie under oath. The key word here is "Knowingly". Like any crime Perjury requires a motive to.

Since the Lieutenant Colonel had no reason to lie, as this same Pathologist took the stand a month earlier and said everything he knew, he simply forgot the exact dates. The time in question occurred almost a year ago.Without looking how many emails did you get in the month of October 2014.

If you took the stand and the defense asked you a question that you did not expect, like "What is the Maiden Name of your Great Grandmother on your Mother's side", and you didn't know that does this make you stupid? If you said you thought it was Smith and it turned out to be Jones, does this make you a liar and you should be charged with Perjury? I hardly think so.

It was a loaded question just like the one I proposed to make the Lieutenant Colonel look incompetent. It was plain to see.

[JLCrab]

Andy Hall ‏@Atomicalandy 2 minutes ago

Will be using videos of testimony/analysis to highlight some of the key points in my own testimony that has been supported by other experts

Andy Hall ‏@Atomicalandy 3 minutes ago

I will explain Samui court about allegations of torture on Koh Tao during the murder investigation, using all evidence I have at my disposal

Andy Hall ‏@Atomicalandy 6 minutes ago

I will testify about all@what MWRN has done to seek to contribute to 'justice' in the Koh Tao murder case since late September 2014

Andy Hall ‏@Atomicalandy 12 minutes ago

Ready to testify this morning as defense witness in Koh Tao case. Hope my testimony will at least shed light on Koh Tao migrant situation

[fritzzz25]

A prolific poster of months gone by has gone silent in the defence of the RTP. It appears that poster is living up to the old saying of "Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and to remove all doubt.".

Unfortunately a couple of posters are proving this adage is correct........

[IslandLover]

Trial resumes in Thailand of two men accused of murdering Norfolk woman Hannah Witheridge

Half a dozen members of the Witheridge family, accompanied by British police officers, were in court in Koh Samui to hear testimony from a Thai forensics expert confirming that no DNA from the two accused had been found on the alleged murder weapon, a garden hoe.

He explained that initial tests by Thailand’s independent Central Institute of Forensics (CIFS) on the hoe had revealed two people’s DNA - a male and a female. However when a further test was conducted on only the male DNA, using Y chromosome testing, it was actually found to be the DNA of two men, but neither matched the men in the dock today, or their friend who was close to the murder scene at the same time as then.

http://www.edp24.co.uk/news/crime/trial_resumes_in_thailand_of_two_men_accused_of_murdering_norfolk_woman_hannah_witheridge_1_4242304?utm_medium=twitter&utm_source=dlvr.it

@StealthEnergiser - the link you have provided doesn't lead to same EDP article. There were two articles written by Sarah Yuen yesterday (22 Sept) for the EDP and both of them were less detailed than what you have written above - weird. Why would the EDP edit their articles to leave out such important details? It is particularly annoying because the EDP is the only western news agency that is reporting on this case at the moment.

[GOLDBUGGY]

One thing is crystal clear. If the rtp had a DNA match there wouldn't have been all this subterfuge. They would have placed it on the table and let the defence independently test it. It beggars belief that anyone believes the rtp.

They did allow the defense to independently test it, the defense refused to do so.

No they didn't. The so called semen samples were all used up. Only the profiles were available and by that time the defence has all the evidence they needed to disprove the rtp case . That's my polite response to your baiting.

So where did the DNA of Hannah and David come from if it did not come from here? The ones they claim match the hoe.

The Forensics would only have Hannah's DNA as David lived in a different area in the UK so I presume it was sent their. So if you are so sure these samples where used up then where did they get them from? Could they also now not test Hannah's Sample, if it is good as they claim for the hoe, to the 2 Accused DNA Samples they took themselves?

[IslandLover]

Trial resumes in Thailand of two men accused of murdering Norfolk woman Hannah Witheridge

The prosecution presented evidence that DNA from both the accused men was found on Ms Witheridge’s body. However the defence lawyers insist their clients are innocent, and say they will put forward testimony this week which will prove the two Burmese men did not kill Ms Witheridge or Mr Miller.

The trial continues.

http://www.greatyarmouthmercury.co.uk/news/trial_resumes_in_thailand_of_two_men_accused_of_murdering_norfolk_woman_hannah_witheridge_1_4242304?utm_medium=twitter&utm_source=twitterfeed

Can somebody on this forum who knows something about DNA kindly explain this?

Mr Waiyawuth said that a quarter of the indicators from one of the suspects matched the partial profile but that did not mean he could be included as a suspect. DNA experts agree that DNA profiling demands a 99.9999% accurate match.

What is meant by "a quarter of the indicators from one of the suspects matched the partial profile"? Does this mean that the partial profile was from someone of the same ethnicity, i.e. Asian, as one of the suspects?

[GOLDBUGGY]

You mean like those secret document the Defense Team didn't let anyone see or talk about but were passed under the table to the Judges? Or as it was reported by the Media.

You're goner have to eat your words regarding the documents because they have significant dislcosure

Oh? So what are they then? You talk like you know. Perhaps you can share with the rest of us then.

I don't know what they are but in a fair and transparent trial I never heard of secret documents being passed around where the other side can't even contest them, as they don't know what they are. Have You?

I will remind you GB don't worry.

Unfortunately there is some legal considerations being taken into account as the coroner's have taken it upon themselves to interject some information that would otherwise be disclosed at the inquest in the hope that the B2 get a fair trial.

It obviously hasn't sat easily with either coroner so they have allowed the defence to hand their findings to the court. I cant tell you if It will be made public but its on record in the event of an appeal. I do hope it is as I am sure you are.

Why would this be on anyone's record when it can't be argued in a court of law and can't be verified.

If the Official Legal Stance of the UK Justice System is to not provide evidence in a trial that carries Capital Punishment then this is their Law and should remain in force. So if this Forensic Expert who preformed an Autopsy on Hannah provided any information concerning this case without prior permission from the government their, which appears to be the case, then she broke the law and in my books she should be punished for that.

As far as I can see this would only give the UK Justice System a Big Black Eye as far as any other future dealings with the Thai Justice System. After this disclosure, as you call it, I wouldn't trust them either.

[GOLDBUGGY]

Oh? So what are they then? You talk like you know. Perhaps you can share with the rest of us then.

I don't know what they are but in a fair and transparent trial I never heard of secret documents being passed around where the other side can't even contest them, as they don't know what they are. Have You?

Whoops I forgot to answer the other part.

" I never heard of secret documents being passed around where the other side can't even contest them"

Well cast your mind back a few weeks ago the police handed in several documents at the end of the days hearing that the defence had not had sight off. so don't be surprised will you. It happens its Thailand

There was no claim made by the Media or Defense that these were secret documents. Only you have made such a claim. It was reported to be supporting documents for a case they had presented. Not some unknown for the UK Forensics Expert, that nobody got to see and like the Defense presented.

[IslandLover]

The Mystery Deepens

"Today one of her science officers, from the Central Institute of Forensic Science (CIFS) in Bangkok, testified that the majority of the DNA found on the murder weapon belonged to Ms Witheridge herself, and 24 year-old Mr Miller"

http://www.edp24.co.uk/news/crime/trial_resumes_in_thailand_of_two_men_accused_of_murdering_norfolk_woman_hannah_witheridge_1_4242304

For me, the most shocking bit from the above article is this:

Defence lawyers have repeatedly challenged the prosecution to submit the clothing Ms Witheridge was seen to still be wearing in murder scene photographs for DNA testing.

“The clothes on Hannah’s body are very important evidence that should have been tested to determine whether there was DNA on them. But the investigator chose not to submit this, the reason we will never know,” said Mr Chomphuchat.

It is inexcusable.

[IslandLover]

This must be horrific listening for the Witherbridge family.

Forensic Science Officer Worawee Waiyawuth said DNA testing in their laboratory showed Ms Witheridge had held the hoe handle for the longest time, leaving a DNA trace which was not blood, although her blood was on the blade.

This scenario does not paint the picture put to us by the positioning of Hannah's body when found at the crime scene, instead it shows a lengthy struggle and fight put up by Hannah

It makes the final scene look even more like it was set in my mind.

I should think the hoe was used to disfigure her face after death, and after her body had been deliberately left in that obscene pose down by the rocks. It is truly sickening.

[GOLDBUGGY]

Oh? So what are they then? You talk like you know. Perhaps you can share with the rest of us then.

I don't know what they are but in a fair and transparent trial I never heard of secret documents being passed around where the other side can't even contest them, as they don't know what they are. Have You?

I will remind you GB don't worry.

Unfortunately there is some legal considerations being taken into account as the coroner's have taken it upon themselves to interject some information that would otherwise be disclosed at the inquest in the hope that the B2 get a fair trial.

It obviously hasn't sat easily with either coroner so they have allowed the defence to hand their findings to the court. I cant tell you if It will be made public but its on record in the event of an appeal. I do hope it is as I am sure you are.

I don't care what it is unless it is some Trade Secret or a Military Secret which could harm Thailand. It should be made public in a public trial, if it can be used in any way. I don't care if these documents came from the Pope himself. If it was the Prosecution that did this everyone here would be jumping up and down and screaming how unfair this is. .

Ok so you don't care, not a lot you do care about apart from a guilty verdict is there.

I care about the 2 True Victims in this case which is Hannah and David. Therefore I do not want to see 2 Accused Rapists and Murderers walk free until it is proven beyond a "Reasonable Doubt" they are in fact Innocent. Do you see where they have done that as I don't.

Someone who may have forgotten to put the correct date on a DNA Document does not convince me the 2 Accused are innocent. Nor is the UK Justice System who fail to provide written declaration that this Mobile Phone belongs to David, as by law they are not allowed to, even if they give a verbal confirmation. Even that this case wasn't handled perfectly with apparent blunders. But none so far that proves the DNA Match with Hannah is false, and why after a year the Defense is still trying to prove that today.

You on the other hand think the victims here are the 2 Accused. You base your judgement on a case that wasn't handled perfectly, which has only been reported about by the Defense Team since last November as the Prosecution has said very little. On 2 Baby Faced Accused Rapists and Murderers who simply said they didn't do it and were tortured into a confession, with no proof so far any of that is true, and when anyone accused with a crime like this would lie through their teeth to save their own skins.

The Defense has a chance this week to prove their case, so let's let them do their job.

[saminoz]

the scene is looking different

No, it's exactly the same as before; the prosecution never claimed DNA from the defendants was found on the hoe. The only thing that has come from the independent testing of it is that it was, indeed, the murder weapon; so nothing new.

Meanwhile the actual DNA evidence the prosecution is basing their case on is being contested only indirectly by trying to discredit the process that yielded the results, instead of the actual results themselves; which I don't think carries much weight because it's not possible to by mistake or accident arrive at two DNA profiles matching the defendants.

The only thing that would produce a match is a deliberate faking of the results after the two defendants were arrested, and until they can provide any sort of evidence for such thing, IMO, the DNA evidence still stands.

Setting aside the fact that your opinion and mistaken views lack credibility again, we still only have the RTP's word that the DNS matched.

The only DNA supposedly left for the defence to test was that replicated by the RTP forensics team whose competence and professionalism has already been trashed by Thailand's foremost DNA expert!

With the replicated DNA, no one could tell whether it originated from a semen sample or sweat or a mouth swab so, yes, it would be extremely easy for the RTP to substitute the B2's DNA in this way. Remember that the samples had not been labelled correctly (thus destroying the possibility of anonymity or impartiality in the process), nor had the chain of custody process been followed, much less adhered to!

Of course in all this, if you still believe everything that comes out of the RTP camp (of which you are a clear follower) then you also probably think that the sun revolves around the earth, the earth pivots on Bangkok and that the earth is flat!!

[GOLDBUGGY]

I don't care what it is unless it is some Trade Secret or a Military Secret which could harm Thailand. It should be made public in a public trial, if it can be used in any way. I don't care if these documents came from the Pope himself. If it was the Prosecution that did this everyone here would be jumping up and down and screaming how unfair this is. .

Well GB if you feel so strongly then let them know they need to abide by your criteria.

The Lady you need to speak is Jacqueline Lake. Below is the contact details for you (thought I would save you the hassle)

Please do let us know how you get on I am intrigued

Address: 69-75 Thorpe Rd, Norwich, Norfolk NR1 1UA, United Kingdom

Phone:+44 1603 663302

norfolk@coroner.norfolk.gov.uk.

http://www.norfolk.gov.uk/Community_and_living/Coroners/index.htm

Well for one thing it was you who claimed I would eat my words like you knew something. Not me!

But to be totally honest, if what she has to say isn't brought out in court as evidence, then I really don't care what she has to say at all.

For every Psychiatrist who takes the stand to say the accused was crazy at the time of the murder, you will find another that will say he was not. For every Forensic Expert who takes the stand and says this happened or that, you will find another to say it didn't happen that way at all.

From what I understand the DNA Testing Equipment doesn't think or lie. It just prints out if it matches or it doesn't. Now it is up to the Defense Team to try and prove why it didn't do that, if it didn't.

I take it you wont be contacting her then GB??

And I take it your saying her findings are worthless?

You'll find the Coroners reports contradict several things including the injuries both David and Hannah had suffered. You will remember first they said she was raped. Then they said she wasn't. Then they said she was raped in both lower passages. I think they where coving all their bases actually. Well that could be one of the contradictions. But who knows I am Mad Hey....

Ohhh I forgot that bit. They have been submitted as evidence into the court. Face saving at the moment for the RTP as they don't want them published maybe?

"They have been submitted as evidence into court". ???

Do you mind posting a Link that claims this? I just saw it was passed to a judge.

Or is this just another one of your posts where you secretly claim you are privy to information that all the rest of us here are not? If you do work for the Defense Team then it is pretty difficult to argue any point with you, true or false, since you would have more information. But it also clearly points to which side you are on no matter what the truth is to.

The RTP first said they thought Hannah was raped. They later claimed they were not sure as the DNA Evidence hadn't come back yet as that took near a week. With that confirmation they then claimed she was.

Yeah! I am sure the Defense is really concerned about making the RTP look bad. Get Real!

[saminoz]

Wow. Maybe try again with your spectacles on? The hoe pictured on the beach is missing part of its business end. Top right corner Buggy..... Go have a look.

Oh you mean your photo with that big magnify glass over that corner to make it look like it is cut.

Look on Google for the real photos. They have plenty of true one there.

OMG!!!