Is it really better that Saddam’s gone?

[oncearugge]

Saddam and the other "removed" dictators were without doubt unpleasant people but to a great extent they kept the "lid" on.

Now they are gone and we can witness the wonderful emergence of American style "democracy" in the countries that have been liberated.

The hard line dictators need urgent replacement.

"Islam" and democracy do not mix !

Edited October 27, 2015 by oncearugge

[simple1]

Saddam and the other "removed" dictators were without doubt unpleasant people but to a great extent they kept the "lid" on.

Now they are gone and we can witness the wonderful emergence of American style "democracy" in the countries that have been liberated.

The hard line dictators need urgent replacement.

"Islam" and democracy do not mix !

Exactly what 'lid' did Saddam impose other than repression of anyone opposing his minority dictatorship, he was himself a supporter of terrorism against the population of Iraq. In addition don't forget the West's support for his unprovoked Iraqi attack on Iran led to an estimated one million plus deaths. Also Bush Senior's encouragement for the Shiite / Kurds rebellion against Saddam & his subsequent failure to provide any support that led to tens of thousands of deaths generated a major credibility gap for the US.

Hard line dictators are one of the primary reasons why the likes of Al Qaeda & Daesh arose if the first place; just look at their propaganda that identifies regional dictatorships as one of their main targets.

It's speculation, but just maybe if Brenner & others did not make so many policy mistakes after the invasion of Iraq the region would be in a let better space than it is today.

Edited October 27, 2015 by simple1

[Pakboong]

Tribal societies need and must have an iron fisted warlord to keep the tribal factions in line.

That was proved by Saddam's rule and Qaddafi's rule.

Certain western politicians didn't like it broke the pattern and now we have and see only to plainly the consequences of those actions.,

The population within the region has devolved back at least a hundred years and now the overflow is spilling into Europe and if not contained will move Europe back five hundred years..

The delights of a western influenced democracy are indeed manifold in their dubious benefits!!

The rubbish people come out with in order to justify their support for nasty dictatorships.

As opposed to support for democratically elected despots who see nothing wrong in bombing the crap out of a country or arming terrorists to destabilize a country to implement regime change when they feel like it

Yes the West has brought freedom and democracy to the area and the people should be far more thankful for all our troubles

They sure did and only had to kill 2,000,000 to do it. How long would it have taken the two evil dictators to kill that many?

[VIPinthailand]

now they can live the American dream..

House, car, swimming pool, RV, TV, and garage full of junks...

[pitrevie]

Well it is certainly better for the guy who threw the shoe at GWB. He would not have thrown his shoe at Saddam and certainly would not have needed his shoes afterwards.

[Si Thea01]

Is George Bush still searching for the weapons of mass destruction?

I think he is still searching for many things !

Two things he will never find, intelligence and a brain despite them going hand in hand.

[marcosss]

So now blaming it on WRONG INTELLIGENCE???

Im not here to judge if Saddam was good or bad, but sure the county's economy was much much better than what it is today, and their Currency was very strong and now its has hardly any value.

So many lives were taken away in that unjustified war.

Here let me help you. He gassed and murdered tens of thousands of his own fellow countrymen. He was bad. The world is a better place without him

gassing his own countrymen? Compared to the US decimating the entire country and leaving it in complete chaos? Your absolutely irrational if you believe Iraq is now a better place. Or maybe your a GW fan boy that believes that there were weapons of mass destruction as well.

Im thinking you didnt do,so well in school. Please tell me where in any part of my post did I say any of the blabber you wrote.....there wasnt even a punctuation mark of the crap that you wrote.

no I didn't go to school, I grew up in the Forrest & was raised by gorillas. That being the case, I can still see the damage that has been done by US foreign policy under the Bush, Cheney administration.

That was the point, even though it lacked punctuation........

Lack of punctuation = poor scholarly achievement

Making a point of one's poor punctuation = arse hole

Edited October 28, 2015 by marcosss

[chilli42]

Of course it's not better! It was one of the great foreign policy debacles of the last 30 years. Sadden was mother Theresa compared to what has been unleashed on Iraq since he was removed.

[SheungWan]

Of course it's not better! It was one of the great foreign policy debacles of the last 30 years. Sadden was mother Theresa compared to what has been unleashed on Iraq since he was removed.

Saddam Hussein as Mother Theresa. Fantastic.

[h90]

No doubt Saddam was a nasty dictator, just like Gaddafi or Assad. However the power vacuum just ends up being far far worse.

Europe is currently getting it's reward in a cultural reorientation, but what has the US gained? Nothing as a country but some corrupt entities & people have done well.

So as always ask who benefits? Well who does benefit from formerly strong Arab countries now fallen apart and in quasi anarchy?

Saddam, Gaddafi and Assad are angles when you are Christian/Atheist/woman/gay.

They are all socialists with good health and educational system. They didn't make any problems for people who don't oppose them.

But they were true evil against anyone who voiced a different political opinion.

So everyone who think they were nasty dictators, please think how would be your life under them and how would be your life under the Islamists these dictators suppressed.

It isn't Gaddafi/Assad vs. Swiss like Democracy. It is Gaddafi/Assad vs. Islamist dictatorship. As atheist I prefer to keep my head on my body...

[marcosss]

This article has a few pertinent points about our current situation, it's an interesting read.

http://www.thepeoplesvoice.org/TPV3/Voices.php/2015/10/27/syrian-war-pits-syria-russia-iran-versus

[marcosss]

No doubt Saddam was a nasty dictator, just like Gaddafi or Assad. However the power vacuum just ends up being far far worse.

Europe is currently getting it's reward in a cultural reorientation, but what has the US gained? Nothing as a country but some corrupt entities & people have done well.

So as always ask who benefits? Well who does benefit from formerly strong Arab countries now fallen apart and in quasi anarchy?

Saddam, Gaddafi and Assad are angles when you are Christian/Atheist/woman/gay.

They are all socialists with good health and educational system. They didn't make any problems for people who don't oppose them.

But they were true evil against anyone who voiced a different political opinion.

So everyone who think they were nasty dictators, please think how would be your life under them and how would be your life under the Islamists these dictators suppressed.

It isn't Gaddafi/Assad vs. Swiss like Democracy. It is Gaddafi/Assad vs. Islamist dictatorship. As atheist I prefer to keep my head on my body...

well put, couldn't agree with your views more.

[retarius]

Of course it's not better. When Saddam was in charge the 95% of people who were not seeking to oust him and steal his power had decent lives, you know sending their kids to school, electricity, jobs, shopping in markets without being afraid of being blown up....now what have the got?

[asean]

You even think about assassinating me and I will torture and kill not just you, but you wife, children, parents, grandparents, in laws, sisters brothers, cousins uncles aunties and after i wipe out all trace of your family lineage I will gas your entire village and let them know who brought this on them. This is how you rule multi sect islamic fanatics. And you know what??? It worked.

[simple1]

You even think about assassinating me and I will torture and kill not just you, but you wife, children, parents, grandparents, in laws, sisters brothers, cousins uncles aunties and after i wipe out all trace of your family lineage I will gas your entire village and let them know who brought this on them. This is how you rule multi sect islamic fanatics. And you know what??? It worked.

Was the murderous al-Anfal Campaign that killed thousands of Iraqi Kurds and ethnic Christians, together with the genocidal campaign against the Marsh Arabs motivated by attacking 'multi sect Islamic fanatics?

[marcosss]

You even think about assassinating me and I will torture and kill not just you, but you wife, children, parents, grandparents, in laws, sisters brothers, cousins uncles aunties and after i wipe out all trace of your family lineage I will gas your entire village and let them know who brought this on them. This is how you rule multi sect islamic fanatics. And you know what??? It worked.

Was the murderous al-Anfal Campaign that killed thousands of Iraqi Kurds and ethnic Christians, together with the genocidal campaign against the Marsh Arabs motivated by attacking 'multi sect Islamic fanatics?

even though atrocities and injustices were committed, the relative before & after comparison stands, it is far far worse now than what it was before the tyrant was deposed. And that is the only true measure. As for the Kurds, who I think should be granted autonomy, well now they have another genocidal tyrant in Erdogan.

[ddavidovsky]

Intentions were noble, but getting rid of Saddam was an experiment and was carried out with more optimism than intelligence. The idea was that the Iraqi people would be so thankful to be rid of him, that they would form a happy, western-friendly, progressive democracy. That didn't work. The west should have known better not to remove Gaddafi and Assad after that.

Big picture is that these nations are artificial creations composed of potentially warring factions living in desert conditions with limited resources. Stability is not possible until everybody has affluence and equality. As that is not going to happen in the foreseeable future, the factions will be continue to compete with each other for the ascendency that ensures their survival. The solution is mass migration of factions and a redefinition of borders. That has already been happening in parts of the world (such as Israel), and while it is happening it is a horrible mess, but its the only way to achieve long-term peace and general happiness.

The Palestinians should get their own country. The Kurds too. And the Alawites in Syria. The Shias could all move together if a new nation is carved out of part of Iraq. Nobody likes the upheaval, but mass migration is already taking place. All it takes is sufficient resignation.

But yes, it won't happen. Carry on with the wars and the genocides. That's the other way to sort things out.

[vogie]

So now blaming it on WRONG INTELLIGENCE???

Im not here to judge if Saddam was good or bad, but sure the county's economy was much much better than what it is today, and their Currency was very strong and now its has hardly any value.

So many lives were taken away in that unjustified war.

Here let me help you. He gassed and murdered tens of thousands of his own fellow countrymen. He was bad. The world is a better place without him

We probably killed more Iraqis than Saddam ever did. Is the world a better place since his death, I'll leave that to you to figure out.

[Scott]

You even think about assassinating me and I will torture and kill not just you, but you wife, children, parents, grandparents, in laws, sisters brothers, cousins uncles aunties and after i wipe out all trace of your family lineage I will gas your entire village and let them know who brought this on them. This is how you rule multi sect islamic fanatics. And you know what??? It worked.

Was the murderous al-Anfal Campaign that killed thousands of Iraqi Kurds and ethnic Christians, together with the genocidal campaign against the Marsh Arabs motivated by attacking 'multi sect Islamic fanatics?

even though atrocities and injustices were committed, the relative before & after comparison stands, it is far far worse now than what it was before the tyrant was deposed. And that is the only true measure. As for the Kurds, who I think should be granted autonomy, well now they have another genocidal tyrant in Erdogan.

Erdogan is in Turkey. This topic is about Iraq.

There have been no shortage of people-in-power who are out to get the Kurds, though.

[simple1]

You even think about assassinating me and I will torture and kill not just you, but you wife, children, parents, grandparents, in laws, sisters brothers, cousins uncles aunties and after i wipe out all trace of your family lineage I will gas your entire village and let them know who brought this on them. This is how you rule multi sect islamic fanatics. And you know what??? It worked.

Was the murderous al-Anfal Campaign that killed thousands of Iraqi Kurds and ethnic Christians, together with the genocidal campaign against the Marsh Arabs motivated by attacking 'multi sect Islamic fanatics?

even though atrocities and injustices were committed, the relative before & after comparison stands, it is far far worse now than what it was before the tyrant was deposed. And that is the only true measure. As for the Kurds, who I think should be granted autonomy, well now they have another genocidal tyrant in Erdogan.

I wasn't arguing the point you raise, I was querying whether it is truthful Saddam was in fact primarily waging war on 'Islamist fanatics'

[marcosss]

You even think about assassinating me and I will torture and kill not just you, but you wife, children, parents, grandparents, in laws, sisters brothers, cousins uncles aunties and after i wipe out all trace of your family lineage I will gas your entire village and let them know who brought this on them. This is how you rule multi sect islamic fanatics. And you know what??? It worked.

Was the murderous al-Anfal Campaign that killed thousands of Iraqi Kurds and ethnic Christians, together with the genocidal campaign against the Marsh Arabs motivated by attacking 'multi sect Islamic fanatics?

even though atrocities and injustices were committed, the relative before & after comparison stands, it is far far worse now than what it was before the tyrant was deposed. And that is the only true measure. As for the Kurds, who I think should be granted autonomy, well now they have another genocidal tyrant in Erdogan.

I wasn't arguing the point you raise, I was querying whether it is truthful Saddam was in fact primarily waging war on 'Islamist fanatics'

I'm sorry if I came across the wrong way, I'm in agreement with you and was hoping to add to your remarks.

[marcosss]

Intentions were noble, but getting rid of Saddam was an experiment and was carried out with more optimism than intelligence. The idea was that the Iraqi people would be so thankful to be rid of him, that they would form a happy, western-friendly, progressive democracy. That didn't work. The west should have known better not to remove Gaddafi and Assad after that.

Big picture is that these nations are artificial creations composed of potentially warring factions living in desert conditions with limited resources. Stability is not possible until everybody has affluence and equality. As that is not going to happen in the foreseeable future, the factions will be continue to compete with each other for the ascendency that ensures their survival. The solution is mass migration of factions and a redefinition of borders. That has already been happening in parts of the world (such as Israel), and while it is happening it is a horrible mess, but its the only way to achieve long-term peace and general happiness.

The Palestinians should get their own country. The Kurds too. And the Alawites in Syria. The Shias could all move together if a new nation is carved out of part of Iraq. Nobody likes the upheaval, but mass migration is already taking place. All it takes is sufficient resignation.

But yes, it won't happen. Carry on with the wars and the genocides. That's the other way to sort things out.

I think that you may have over looked one point, & that is the spread of Islam and it's fundamentalist ideology. & the spread is now an issue that has travelled well beyond the borders of Iraq and it's waring neighbours.

[spidermike007]

Intentions were noble, but getting rid of Saddam was an experiment and was carried out with more optimism than intelligence. The idea was that the Iraqi people would be so thankful to be rid of him, that they would form a happy, western-friendly, progressive democracy. That didn't work. The west should have known better not to remove Gaddafi and Assad after that.

Big picture is that these nations are artificial creations composed of potentially warring factions living in desert conditions with limited resources. Stability is not possible until everybody has affluence and equality. As that is not going to happen in the foreseeable future, the factions will be continue to compete with each other for the ascendency that ensures their survival. The solution is mass migration of factions and a redefinition of borders. That has already been happening in parts of the world (such as Israel), and while it is happening it is a horrible mess, but its the only way to achieve long-term peace and general happiness.

The Palestinians should get their own country. The Kurds too. And the Alawites in Syria. The Shias could all move together if a new nation is carved out of part of Iraq. Nobody likes the upheaval, but mass migration is already taking place. All it takes is sufficient resignation.

But yes, it won't happen. Carry on with the wars and the genocides. That's the other way to sort things out.

I am not sure optimism is the correct description. It was carried out with extreme hubris, arrogance, disdain for history, disdain for the local culture, ignorance and a ridiculous lack of situational awareness nor long term planning. Looking back in it, the whole situation was staggering in its ineptitude. Tiny George II could not have been less prepared nor more poorly advised, nor less prepared for the aftermath. Historically, that invasion was nothing short of an abomination. Who were the losers, besides Saddam? The Iraqi people, the Kurds and the US.

[Thorgal]

You even think about assassinating me and I will torture and kill not just you, but you wife, children, parents, grandparents, in laws, sisters brothers, cousins uncles aunties and after i wipe out all trace of your family lineage I will gas your entire village and let them know who brought this on them. This is how you rule multi sect islamic fanatics. And you know what??? It worked.

Was the murderous al-Anfal Campaign that killed thousands of Iraqi Kurds and ethnic Christians, together with the genocidal campaign against the Marsh Arabs motivated by attacking 'multi sect Islamic fanatics?

even though atrocities and injustices were committed, the relative before & after comparison stands, it is far far worse now than what it was before the tyrant was deposed. And that is the only true measure. As for the Kurds, who I think should be granted autonomy, well now they have another genocidal tyrant in Erdogan.

I wasn't arguing the point you raise, I was querying whether it is truthful Saddam was in fact primarily waging war on 'Islamist fanatics'

If you include the Shia movements during Iranian revolution under Ayatollah Khomeini as 'Islamic fanatics', then yes Saddam waged a war against a certain scholar of Islamic fanatism. This is the official and core interpretation.

But this war was not waged on religious motives. Iraq was dragged into this war under Carter administration with help of Israel. Furthermore there was a dispute of sovereignty and oil and gas exploration rights in a region in South Iraq/Iran, in Shat al Arab region.

http://www.wrmea.org/1989-april/the-shatt-al-arab-obstacle-to-iran-iraq-peace.html

Edited October 29, 2015 by Thorgal

[Thian]

Well the Americans opened this can of worms, where are they now to solve it??

Now Europe is loaded with refugee's causing huge internal problems (and fights soon).

The US are so quiet now......Even the Russians have to come to help.

And Europe also still suffers from the crisis caused by........right, their "friends".

[Andaman Al]

Is It Really Better That Saddam’s Gone?

No.

[Scott]

After living and working in the country for a number of years, I can't give a definitive opinion on this question. I tend to think it's better that he is gone, but the disintegration of the entire government, whether in Iraq or anywhere else, will and has caused chaos.