ATM withdrawals from overeas account

[oldsailor35]

Can someone please explain to me the benefit for or against when machine asks for "proceed with conversion" or "without conversion"

Thank you.

[oldsailor35]

mmmmm No replies, and i thought i was the only one who does not know !

[TheAppletons]

What you are describing is known as "Dynamic Currency Conversion". You always want to proceed "without conversion".

Choosing "without conversion" means you'll get the VISA/Mastercard rate of international exchange...in other words, pretty much the best rate of exchange you can obtain.

Choosing "with conversion" means the bank gets to pick an exchange rate for you...and you will lose out big time on that exchange rate.

Just google "Dynamic Currency Conversion" and you'll get lots of hits. Here's one"

https://transferwise.com/blog/2012-11/choose-local-currency-at-foreign-atm/

[mesquite]

This has been covered here before. Use the search function.

[BudRight]

Always use local currency.

[Thanyaburi Mac]

I've never seen that comment when I've done an ATM withdrawal from my U.S. bank.

Mac

[Crossy]

I've never seen that comment when I've done an ATM withdrawal from my U.S. bank.

Mac

I've seen it several times, IIRC when using a Visa branded card to withdraw cash. But it does seem to vary bank to bank.

[Pib]

What you are describing is known as "Dynamic Currency Conversion". You always want to proceed "without conversion".

Choosing "without conversion" means you'll get the VISA/Mastercard rate of international exchange...in other words, pretty much the best rate of exchange you can obtain.

Choosing "with conversion" means the bank gets to pick an exchange rate for you...and you will lose out big time on that exchange rate.

Just google "Dynamic Currency Conversion" and you'll get lots of hits. Here's one"

https://transferwise.com/blog/2012-11/choose-local-currency-at-foreign-atm/

^^^Ditto. Select proceed without conversion to get the Visa/Mastercard exchange rate which will be several percent better than the Dynamic Currency Conversion (DCC) rate the local bank ATM will provide. DCC bad for the customer; good for the bank.

And to rub salt in the withdrawal fee and lower DCC exchange rate your card-issuing bank may still apply a foreign transaction fee on top of the ATM lower exchange rate; not because Visa/Mastercard/your card-issuing bank was involved in the currency exchange but simply because it was a foreign transaction.

[oldsailor35]

What you are describing is known as "Dynamic Currency Conversion". You always want to proceed "without conversion".

Choosing "without conversion" means you'll get the VISA/Mastercard rate of international exchange...in other words, pretty much the best rate of exchange you can obtain.

Choosing "with conversion" means the bank gets to pick an exchange rate for you...and you will lose out big time on that exchange rate.

Just google "Dynamic Currency Conversion" and you'll get lots of hits. Here's one"

https://transferwise.com/blog/2012-11/choose-local-currency-at-foreign-atm/

^^^Ditto. Select proceed without conversion to get the Visa/Mastercard exchange rate which will be several percent better than the Dynamic Currency Conversion (DCC) rate the local bank ATM will provide. DCC bad for the customer; good for the bank.

And to rub salt in the withdrawal fee and lower DCC exchange rate your card-issuing bank may still apply a foreign transaction fee on top of the ATM lower exchange rate; not because Visa/Mastercard/your card-issuing bank was involved in the currency exchange but simply because it was a foreign transaction.

A big thank you to TheAppletons. I have been using the incorrect option as have certain others here. I appreciate your help.

[Pib]

Banks go all out to use the conversion selection "wording" which steers you towards selecting DCC...make a person think he is selecting the best option for the customer when in fact the wording steers the person to the best option profit-wise for the bank. Banksters they are.

[PattayaPhom]

Does anybody living here seriously use a Foreign ATM card anymore when there are so many other cheaper ways of obtaining cash

[Aachen]

I've never seen that comment when I've done an ATM withdrawal from my U.S. bank.

Mac

This is a worldwide problem/ripoff to get extra money off the customer..

Edited November 5, 2015 by Aachen

[Aachen]

Does anybody living here seriously use a Foreign ATM card anymore when there are so many other cheaper ways of obtaining cash

You mean, robbing a bank? That can be more expensive.

[Pib]

Does anybody living here seriously use a Foreign ATM card anymore when there are so many other cheaper ways of obtaining cash

I sure do...my cards are no foriegn transaction fee cards that also reimburse ATM fees. I also get the full Visa exchange rate which is plus or minus a few stang the Thai bank TT Buying Rate used for incoming wire transfers. With no foriegn transaction fee and ATM fee reimbursement that's referred to as free. You got something cheaper than free?

[lopburi3]

As said, for those that live next to an ATM and have no fee and reimbursement there is a case to be made for using card. It can also be good for tourists even with some charges. But for most, who do not have access to such cards or the time to use them, there are reasonable electronic alternatives for those staying long term. But as Pib uses it is the cheapest option.

But for short stay the card is very central and a good option as long as they avoid those conversions that try to use DCC. Never accept that method (you have the right to refuse - although merchant may not be too open in advising that - trying to make it to your advantage as you know the exact cost in your home currency - most would not accept if they actually knew the cost of this 'feature'.

[KhunBENQ]

Surprising that still so many haven't heard of this DCC swindle/exortion

It has been covered so often in the forum.

NEVER accept a conversion to your home currency by the issuing bank ("ATM"). No DCC!

NEVER accept a transaction where your home currency is displayed.

ALWAYS select the option to be billed in Thai Baht (as you have originally entered and what you receive).

As small and hidden the option maybe and as big the advantages of the conversion are advertised.

The rates which the ATM operating Thai banks use are terrible. Loosing 5% of your money would be a good result.

I thinks its even worse.

When being billed in THB the rates are determined by the card issuing bank/credit card organizations.

Edited November 5, 2015 by KhunBENQ

[oldsailor35]

Does anybody living here seriously use a Foreign ATM card anymore when there are so many other cheaper ways of obtaining cash

Wish i knew what they are. However today i took TheAppletons advice and it only cost me Bht160 to withdraw 20,000 bht last time it was almost 1000 bht.

[Pib]

And what is a durn shame that in the name of "competition" government agencies such as the Australian Competition and Consumer Commission (ACCC) are filing and winning law suits against credit card networks such as Visa which forces the card networks to allow merchants and bank ATMs to offer/use DCC.

Once again in the name of competition if you consider competition giving the merchant/bank ATM the authority to use the DCC ripoff by saying the merchant/bank ATM has the right to accomplish the currency exchange versus the card network. Unfortunately, I have yet to run across a DCC transaction offered by a merchant or bank ATM that provides a better exchange rate/lower fee than the card network. Seems all the DCC transactions are in the 3 to 4% fee/lower exchange rate ballpark compared to Visa/Mastercard.

And as mentioned earlier even when accepting a DCC transaction you may still be hit with the foreign transaction fee of your card-issuing bank. Not because your bank was involved in the currency exchange transaction but simply because it was a foreign transaction (accomplished in another country).

For example, see this article on how the ACCC is improving competition. While technically it is improving competition, it's the type of competition that results in more fees for the customer and higher profits for the merchant/banks.

Even with this ruling against Visa in Australia, it seems Visa logo cards are much less likely to be offered a DCC transaction at a Thai ATM compared to Mastercard. I use U.S. Visa debit cards at Thai ATMs and have never been offerred a DCC transaction, but I routinely see Thaivisa posts of folks with Mastercard logo cards being offerred DCC. But at a merchant, it seems Visa or Mastercard logo cards are equally susceptible to DCC transactions.

Just remember if a purchase action receipt for signature prints out showing Thai baht "and" your home country currency that is a DCC transaction....DO NOT sign it. Tell the clerk to cancel that transaction and rerun in Thai baht only. It only takes them about a minute to do it (i've done it numerous times) although a few may make it sound like it's an impossible feat. Those who tell you no-can-do are just lying to you/been directed by store management to say only DCC can be done for foreign cards. I've never run up against the no-can-do clerk but I see Thaivisa posts from folks who have. If unsure if a store defaults to DCC for foreign cards best to tell them when handing them your card to "charge Thai baht"...be sure to have direct eye contact when saying that and don't release the card to their hand until they understand as that should prevent them from running the DCC in the first place...instead, a press a button to charge Thai baht and the receipt for signature prints out showing only Thai baht which is not a DCC transaction/not a ripoff.

[chaihot]

Does anybody living here seriously use a Foreign ATM card anymore when there are so many other cheaper ways of obtaining cash

Does anybody living here seriously use a Foreign ATM card anymore when there are so many other cheaper ways of obtaining cash

I sure do...my cards are no foriegn transaction fee cards that also reimburse ATM fees. I also get the full Visa exchange rate which is plus or minus a few stang the Thai bank TT Buying Rate used for incoming wire transfers. With no foriegn transaction fee and ATM fee reimbursement that's referred to as free. You got something cheaper than free?

Absolutely! I use the Schwab card for ATM use and I track my rates monthly. Schwab refunds the ATM fee in full each month.

Using Debit and Credit cards, I get BETTER than Street rate most of the time. Plus when using credit, I get rewards. I live in Thailand and have for many years. I don't know what I would do if we couldn't use our cards!

Debit and credit cards have allowed me to not be tied to "cash" in local currency. My money is in the US, so it is ultra convenient that I can obtain BETTER rates than the street and then pay my bill easily from my US account.

BTW, yes I have local accounts and can transfer money through New York BB. But I don't get the reward points or miles; and there is no benefit to using cash.

[Pib]

Using no foreign transaction fee credit cards can indeed significantly lower a person's need for cash in Thailand, paying wire transfer fees, incurring ATM fees, etc. The wife and I use our U.S. no foreign transaction fee credit cards which also pay 1.5% cash back as much as we can in Thailand versus using cash to buy groceries, fuel, medical expenses, hardware store buys, Lotus buys, Big C buys, just for many, many buys. Pay off the credit bills in full each month so no interest charge is incurred. The Visa/Mastercard exchange rate is plus or minus a few stang of the Thai bank TT Buying Rate used for incoming wire transfers. Yeap, using such credit cards can greatly lower your cash needs in Thailand and, if important to a person, also continue to help maintain their credit rating in their home country.

[lopburi3]

But there is no need to use cash for payments when living here if you do not want to do so - every Thai bank account offers debit cards that can be used for local payments if you want. But for those of us that have lived here long term the key factor was that credit cards incurred additional payments of several percent over paying cash until quite recently (and international ATM access was not reliable) - and a logical alternative has been local debit cards for those who live there life in a house of cards. But this is the land of ATM's so cash is always within a few steps and a local ATM/debit card is all that is required for most who live here full time.

[ajdigs]

First, I apologize if my inquiry is a repeat or proves to be in the wrong thread. I seek no debates or advice on fees but frustrated there must be a simple explanation why it appears I am solely excluded from ATM use.

I'd be very grateful for a solution, even an explanation as to why every ATM rejects my Canadian Mastercard yet visiting a tellers during opening hours presents no obstacles. I've had the MC for awhile now but options other than cash advance were usually available until a about a year ago when longer bouts away from home lent justification.

My worst nightmare is losing both passport and credit cards so as a traveller, I was grateful my habit of keeping a copy rather than the actual passport on my person was enough if and when the unexpected decision for cash advance seemed justified. Aeon at Terminal 21 was the only location where its two ATM's proved capable.I wasn't fully committed because the bank closed earlier than the mall with the machines inside.

Inaccessible if the mall was closed, let alone from the street made this to me borderline pointless and tipped towards self serving more than mutual benefit... But still glad I had "insurance".

An hour and a half at Emporium, concluded with Bangkok Bank's insightful possibilty of insignificance that only half their B20,000 limit was attempted the previous evening and also during their operating hours because it was possible the machine did not stock enough large denomination bills on both occasions. Obviously I was alone in significance of concern.

Apparently willing merchants like Top's Market or Boots pharmacy as my charges confirmed proved Mastercard's previous belief I was only capable of the user interface on Aeons machines.

Ten miutes sitting on plastic lawn chairs at Huaykwang doesn't seem necessary to forecast Mastercard's offer for a solution now just because Aeon's ATMs conclude they also find me incapable of navigation.

As a consolation, upon noticing my failed attempts, the Aeon teller's stern but polite suggestion to validate my card's good standing prompted a questionable desire to prove my innocence of credit card fraud mentioned every other day in every other media source relevant to this geography.

Bangkok residents of time may have recognized the relieved tails wagging in unison when the teller declared personal benefits for future reference and sought a solution from head office.

If not then surely recognizable is the sound of cut phone line when I pointed out precedence or successful previous use makes the third repetition of a painful lecture on institutional cooperation unnecessary.
Is it offensive if I highlight the likelihood of a change of policy rather than hesitancy initiating cooperation with my bank...If underwritten by Mastercard, does it even matter?

Time in Bangkok being proportional to fate leaves me no other conclusion should I ever lose my passport.

I have enormous respect and admire with envy the Thai people's ability to take frugality beyond sensible to even stylish.

But when cheap backhands me because I've lost my passport with no cash at hand, not sure how cool the minimum charge amounts at any place offering discount prices would seem.

The obscene number of lost passports may limit my odds of being on the passenger list of vanished airplanes but on sheer obvervation the taxis or BTS guarantees I walk to and from the embassy or the airport without cash.

Hopefully the embassy accepts my credit card for the replacement fees because during my 1 to 3 week wait, the 10 -15 daily exposures to duplication my credit card faces for even phone top ups are likely increasing my paranoia anyways.

Take sympathy on the rant and shed possible insight without opening a Thai account if possible for the time being.Coin toss decides the Canadian gov's lacking or abundant imagination regarding overseas accounts.

Thanks in advance.

Edited November 15, 2015 by ajdigs

[lopburi3]

I must say understanding the above is a bit above my ability but is your MC a credit or debit card? At ATM you must select the correct key. And to what bank clearance system is it linked? Different ATM's accept different systems with Cirrus and Plus two of the most common.

[Pib]

@ajdigs,

Not quite sure what your exact complaint is but I think you are saying your your card don't work at all or works intermittently in Thai ATMs. If that's the case it's not because it's a Canadian card because other cards can experience the same problem. The problem may be limitations your home country card-issuing bank has placed on the card and/or the card and ATM just have a compatibility problem with each other. A Point of Service (POS) machine used by a bank teller or merchant may read your card just fine where an ATM will not. A person also has to be sure not to exceed what the daily or per transaction limit is as set by your card-issuing bank....the ATM will also have a limit but the screen will clearly tell you that limit...just be sure you are not exceeding either limit.. And of course your card has to use a network (i.e., Cirrus, Plus, etc) that the ATMs also use.

I remember an issue a few years ago where Capital One debit cards switched their Mastercard to a new network (Cirrus or some network...don't quote me on the exact underlying network), but it caused CapOne customers overseas big problems for ATM withdrawals but generally not POS/merchant purchases. It appeared just to be a cost cutting exercise to reduce costs of CapOne debit card withdrawals. Strange situation....don't know how that finally worked out but I think CapOne added another underlying card network to make ATM withdrawals work in most foreign countries.

A recent example for me which I think is a card & ATM compatibility problem: one of the debit cards I use is a U.S. Schwab Visa debit card...been using it for years. In the years of use in Thailand I only had one time where where the "magnetic strip" version of the card just stopped woring in an ATM...I contacted Schwab about the issue and they said they had blocked it because of some failed withdrawal attempts from Thailand...I told them I'm indeed in Thailand, that was me attempting to do the withdrawals, and pretty sure the ATM was just had a bad day/not connecting to the Visa network properly. Schwab unblocked the card and it continued to work fine for years. But a few months ago I got their new "chipped" card they are sending out to everyone and I have had problems in numerous Thai ATMs accepting it....intermittent at best. I called Schwab about the issue and they sent me a new chipped card as they said sometimes even chips have problems. Anyway the new chipped card showed up, I used it once and it worked...figured the problem is fixed. But when using it again last week the problem resurfaced...it would not work in a Krungsri or TMB ATM (where it has worked before) but it worked in a KrungThai ATM. Once again I called Schwab and they said they saw no attempts to withdrawal from the Krungsri or TMB ATMs although they accepted my PIN, entry of withdrawal amount but would just failed when hitting the submit button to get your cash....the Schwab guy said that means the ATM is just not properly connecting to the Visa networ. But I don't believe that because I had just used my other U.S. debit card (a magnetic strip card) in the TMB machine and previously in the Krungsri ATM and never had an issue. Just something about the new Schwab "chipped" debit card that is not agreeing with some Thai ATMs--or at least the Krungsri and TMB ATMs in this particular mall I always use...I have not tried other Krungsri or TMB ATMs yet....that's my next test. I like to use Krungsri and TMB ATMs since they give Bt30K per transaction where almost all other Thai ATMs only give Bt20K (like KrungThai and AEON) or Bt25K (like Bangkok Bank).

Edited November 16, 2015 by Pib

[4evermaat]

Decline DCC conversion. So you can use your cards network exchange rate. I've only seen krung thai atm do this.

Read the screen CAREFULLY to make sure you decline the conversion. They make the options very similar-looking, perhaps hoping you will press a button to just get on with the transaction.

Try to use thai atms that do not upsell the conversion at all. Bangkok bank, kasikorn bank, and tmb do not ask for conversion.

[ajdigs]

I must say understanding the above is a bit above my ability but is your MC a credit or debit card? At ATM you must select the correct key. And to what bank clearance system is it linked? Different ATM's accept different systems with Cirrus and Plus two of the most common.

Apologize for the late response to your suggestion and also to the heady rant. I suppose contributing frustrations of that day got the better of me but the correct keys for credit or debit were selected. Not sure of ATM protocol but every attempt has the machine accept the pin to start then concludes with me accepting the 200Baht fee for cash withdarawl. So it is at the very last pocedure it will decline the transaction. Thanks for responding.

[ajdigs]

@ajdigs,

Not quite sure what your exact complaint is but I think you are saying your your card don't work at all or works intermittently in Thai ATMs. If that's the case it's not because it's a Canadian card because other cards can experience the same problem. The problem may be limitations your home country card-issuing bank has placed on the card and/or the card and ATM just have a compatibility problem with each other. A Point of Service (POS) machine used by a bank teller or merchant may read your card just fine where an ATM will not. A person also has to be sure not to exceed what the daily or per transaction limit is as set by your card-issuing bank....the ATM will also have a limit but the screen will clearly tell you that limit...just be sure you are not exceeding either limit.. And of course your card has to use a network (i.e., Cirrus, Plus, etc) that the ATMs also use.

I remember an issue a few years ago where Capital One debit cards switched their Mastercard to a new network (Cirrus or some network...don't quote me on the exact underlying network), but it caused CapOne customers overseas big problems for ATM withdrawals but generally not POS/merchant purchases. It appeared just to be a cost cutting exercise to reduce costs of CapOne debit card withdrawals. Strange situation....don't know how that finally worked out but I think CapOne added another underlying card network to make ATM withdrawals work in most foreign countries.

A recent example for me which I think is a card & ATM compatibility problem: one of the debit cards I use is a U.S. Schwab Visa debit card...been using it for years. In the years of use in Thailand I only had one time where where the "magnetic strip" version of the card just stopped woring in an ATM...I contacted Schwab about the issue and they said they had blocked it because of some failed withdrawal attempts from Thailand...I told them I'm indeed in Thailand, that was me attempting to do the withdrawals, and pretty sure the ATM was just had a bad day/not connecting to the Visa network properly. Schwab unblocked the card and it continued to work fine for years. But a few months ago I got their new "chipped" card they are sending out to everyone and I have had problems in numerous Thai ATMs accepting it....intermittent at best. I called Schwab about the issue and they sent me a new chipped card as they said sometimes even chips have problems. Anyway the new chipped card showed up, I used it once and it worked...figured the problem is fixed. But when using it again last week the problem resurfaced...it would not work in a Krungsri or TMB ATM (where it has worked before) but it worked in a KrungThai ATM. Once again I called Schwab and they said they saw no attempts to withdrawal from the Krungsri or TMB ATMs although they accepted my PIN, entry of withdrawal amount but would just failed when hitting the submit button to get your cash....the Schwab guy said that means the ATM is just not properly connecting to the Visa networ. But I don't believe that because I had just used my other U.S. debit card (a magnetic strip card) in the TMB machine and previously in the Krungsri ATM and never had an issue. Just something about the new Schwab "chipped" debit card that is not agreeing with some Thai ATMs--or at least the Krungsri and TMB ATMs in this particular mall I always use...I have not tried other Krungsri or TMB ATMs yet....that's my next test. I like to use Krungsri and TMB ATMs since they give Bt30K per transaction where almost all other Thai ATMs only give Bt20K (like KrungThai and AEON) or Bt25K (like Bangkok Bank).

Apoligize for the late response but your probable cause of a faulty chip so far has proven correct. I was just forwarded a replacement card yesterday and it worked at the chip readable ATM at Villa Market on Thonglor. I must admit my original gaffe assuming the ATM's were already chip readable but still was unable at Thanachart's ATM's. I've only attempted the ATM at Villa so far.

I guess my venting originated with the analysis given by MasterCard asserting most if not all ATM's would accept my previous card based on successful retail transactions.

This previous to Bangkok Bank's Emporium branch's analysis of not enough large denominations stocked in their ATM's. The claim being made during a cash advance counter transaction with the said Mastercard. Then finally with Aeon's prodding of calling head office for an answer in their presence. Only to have their rep hang up on me after I pointed out previous success to refute the plausibility of their institutional relationship building program is at a stall.

To sum it up, while I admit my local knowledg's is less than stellar, it would have saved me alot of time, money on long distance and venting on threads if the banks had shown no empathy rather than misguided empathy. I likely would have concluded a replacement card much sooner rather than hold their possibilities for weeks at a time until the need for ATM's arose. Thanks for the rundown on TMB as their ATM's seem to be most accessible chip capable machines in the city center area.

[mesquite]

Using no foreign transaction fee credit cards can indeed significantly lower a person's need for cash in Thailand, paying wire transfer fees, incurring ATM fees, etc. The wife and I use our U.S. no foreign transaction fee credit cards which also pay 1.5% cash back as much as we can in Thailand versus using cash to buy groceries, fuel, medical expenses, hardware store buys, Lotus buys, Big C buys, just for many, many buys. Pay off the credit bills in full each month so no interest charge is incurred. The Visa/Mastercard exchange rate is plus or minus a few stang of the Thai bank TT Buying Rate used for incoming wire transfers. Yeap, using such credit cards can greatly lower your cash needs in Thailand and, if important to a person, also continue to help maintain their credit rating in their home country.

Same for me.

[mahtin]

Decline DCC conversion. So you can use your cards network exchange rate. I've only seen krung thai atm do this.

Read the screen CAREFULLY to make sure you decline the conversion. They make the options very similar-looking, perhaps hoping you will press a button to just get on with the transaction.

Try to use thai atms that do not upsell the conversion at all. Bangkok bank, kasikorn bank, and tmb do not ask for conversion.

Kasikorn most certainly will attempt to bamboozle you into this scam where you are offered a criminally low rate of exchange.

Select the option to continue without using it.

[KhunBENQ]

Krungthai, Kasikorn, Krungsri...

I have first seen it at Krungsri, but seems like the DCC scam spreads more and more.