Opponents Of Thai Coup Concentrated In Nation's North

[Plus]

And Chamlong at least was highly influental in TRT

That's an overstatement!

His only influence was his personal relationship with Thaksin, he didn't have any MPs under control, he didn't have any money, he didn't play any role in the governement, basically he was a nobody. I doubt Chamlong was even a TRT member, let alone had any influence in the party.

He was personally invited by Thaksin as an "unpaid advisor" in 2002 and given free lodgings in an "outhouse" in the government compound, then we were treated to headlines like "Mentor raps PM's knuckles"

Date:Nov 28,2002", and by the middle of 2004 it was over.

``I assure you that what I am doing now has nothing to do with Thai Rak Thai. I am not politically affiliated to any political party, even Thai Rak Thai,'' said Maj-Gen Chamlong in an interview with the Bangkok Post.

That's what he said in a run up to 2004 Bangkok Governor's elections. In that interview he severely critisised Thaksin and for the first time called him "my mistake". Immediately after that Newin, Thaksin's attack dog, declared that Chamlong's foundation illegaly obtained their land in Kanchanaburi and launched investigations. The story dominated the news for a week or so. In the end Newin was told to back off as it was a bad publicity for the government.

He won a flip-flop award of the year in 2004 for his on-off relationships with Thaksin as he was contradicting himself with every step.

[ColPyat]

You didn't mention the prelude to that episode. Just a few months earlier Burmese took their own embassy hostage and Chuan personally made sure that there was no blood spilt. Next time around, when they took THAI hospital hostage, no one would listen to him. There was no mercy.

I don't see how it was his personal fault.

So what?

It was a gross human rights violation for which neither the paticipants nor the ones who gave the orders were held responsible. Other than the numbers, what is the difference to the drugwar killings? People were summarily executed without due process.

[sriracha john]

You didn't mention the prelude to that episode. Just a few months earlier Burmese took their own embassy hostage and Chuan personally made sure that there was no blood spilt. Next time around, when they took THAI hospital hostage, no one would listen to him. There was no mercy.

I don't see how it was his personal fault.

To be fair, Plus, there were a number of differences between the Tak Bai incident I mentioned and the Ratchaburi hospital incident you mentioned:

Tak Bai - unarmed local protestors, no hostages taken

Ratchaburi - heavily armed foreign soldiers, hundreds of hostages taken

It's not really something that is comparable.

[Plus]

I replied to Colpyat about Chuan being responsible for Rathcaburi summary executions. It was a second hostage situation for him. First time he was too soft on Burmese in army's view, second time even if he protested, no one on the ground would have listened to him. His soft approach lost credibility when Thai citizens were taken hostage by the same people he let away.

He should have tried to bring perpetrators to justice afterwards and there were calls from the public but police and military didn't listen. Like with drug killings Thais showed no mercy.

When the army finally caught "God twins" they treated them in the most humane way.

That was a cheap shot at Chuan.

I draw no parallels between Tak Bai and Ratchaburi.

[ColPyat]

I replied to Colpyat about Chuan being responsible for Rathcaburi summary executions. It was a second hostage situation for him. First time he was too soft on Burmese in army's view, second time even if he protested, no one on the ground would have listened to him. His soft approach lost credibility when Thai citizens were taken hostage by the same people he let away.

He should have tried to bring perpetrators to justice afterwards and there were calls from the public but police and military didn't listen. Like with drug killings Thais showed no mercy.

When the army finally caught "God twins" they treated them in the most humane way.

That was a cheap shot at Chuan.

I draw no parallels between Tak Bai and Ratchaburi.

So, do i understand it correctly - because he was Chuan (with Surayudh as army commander), he is exonerated from taking responsibility over the Ratchaburi killings, and because the police and military "didn't listen to him" they don't need to be investigated, though Thaksin has to take responsibility for the Drug war killings because he is Thaksin?

And, i don't really understand that "no mercy" comment. Are you trying to tell me that because they are Thais it is OK to show "no mercy" by summary executing criminals, by this act not to adhering to the declaration of human rights and due process according to their own law?

No, this is not a 'cheap shot at Chuan' - this is a typical example how selective you are with your accusations - one case of human rights violations you ignore and explain away because you prefer the government in power at that time, while the other you condemn because you you dislike the government in power.

Both though are gross human rights violations, and according to the law valid at the time should have been investigated and brought to trial.

As to the drugwar killings, i don't see any investigation set in motion yet by present government. How do you explain that?

[Plus]

So, do i understand it correctly - because he was Chuan (with Surayudh as army commander), he is exonerated from taking responsibility over the Ratchaburi killings, and because the police and military "didn't listen to him" they don't need to be investigated, though Thaksin has to take responsibility for the Drug war killings because he is Thaksin?

Thaksin made drug war his flagship policy. Chuan let the military handle the hostage situation. Notice any difference?

this is a typical example how selective you are with your accusations - one case of human rights violations you ignore and explain away because you prefer the government in power at that time

NO, it's because I believe that particular person in power at that time was not responsible for what happened. And also because what happened was against that particular person's official policy and his previous decisions in similar circumstances.

And I don't blame Thaksin for Tak Bai either - he wasn't there, he didn't give orders to shoot at the crowd and he didn't manage transportation himself. Drug war was different. It wasn't an incindent, it was a policy.

[ColPyat]

So, do i understand it correctly - because he was Chuan (with Surayudh as army commander), he is exonerated from taking responsibility over the Ratchaburi killings, and because the police and military "didn't listen to him" they don't need to be investigated, though Thaksin has to take responsibility for the Drug war killings because he is Thaksin?

Thaksin made drug war his flagship policy. Chuan let the military handle the hostage situation. Notice any difference?

this is a typical example how selective you are with your accusations - one case of human rights violations you ignore and explain away because you prefer the government in power at that time

NO, it's because I believe that particular person in power at that time was not responsible for what happened. And also because what happened was against that particular person's official policy and his previous decisions in similar circumstances.

And I don't blame Thaksin for Tak Bai either - he wasn't there, he didn't give orders to shoot at the crowd and he didn't manage transportation himself. Drug war was different. It wasn't an incindent, it was a policy.

Chuan let the military at that time led by the present prime minister handle the situation. He never ordered an investigation into the incident.

Tak Bai is very much Thaksin's responsibility, it is a direct result of his policy towards the situation in the three changwats, and especially because his government did not properly investigate and punish the perpetrators.

Drug war was policy, but black list killings were not official policy, and never acknowledged by Thaksin, or his government, and the law enforcement agencies and affiliated militias who did the killings.

Nevertheless, all those incidents require by Thai law impartial investigation, and perpetrators brought to trial, regardless which government was or is in power.

None of these incidents though have been sufficiently investigated, by no government, and not by the present government either.

The only significant incident that is presently investigated is the Somchai disappearance. And that only because of foreign pressure, and the need of the present government to pacify foreign voices of discontent.

That should be to the thinking person a sign with how little regard Thailand treats human rights issues, and not just Thaksin. It is convenient to devilise Thaksin alone, but as long as a whole system of abuse with a history spanning decades is not questioned, nothing will change to the better here in Thailand, and the next human rights violations are just waiting to happen.

[Plus]

It's not that you can't see it, but you DON'T WANT to see the difference between letting the military to do whatever they think is necessary to solve the hostage situation and Thaksin's drug war.

It's not that you can't see, but you DON'T WANT to see the difference between Chuan and Thaksin.

I'm afraid no amount of information or persuasion is going to help.

[ColPyat]

It's not that you can't see it, but you DON'T WANT to see the difference between letting the military to do whatever they think is necessary to solve the hostage situation and Thaksin's drug war.

It's not that you can't see, but you DON'T WANT to see the difference between Chuan and Thaksin.

I'm afraid no amount of information or persuasion is going to help.

I exactly know the difference between Chuan and Thaksin. I don't think you do.

Regarding human rights violations, they have happened in both governments, and in both governments little has been done to investigate those. Yes, i am aware that there were far more human rights violations under Thaksin. The question though here is not the quantity, but the response of the governments, and they were equaly miserable.

What you don't see is the main difference from the perspective of the people up North and in Isaarn who have been and still are supporters of Thaksin. Chuan has done very little to respond to their problems. Because of this Thaksin was elected in the first place.

And if you understand this, you will also understand why the opposition to the coup is in those areas very strong.

The only way how this government will be able to contain the opposition is by giving more development to those areas and sectors of society than Thaksin has done. These people need to see results, very fast, and lasting results. Otherwise Thaksin will come back one day. It has been more than one and a half months already, and nothing has been done.

Time is running out soon. TRT leaders, their affiliates, and unrelated opposition groups are there and working while the government is drawn out between the problems in the south, their own increasing infights, trying to investigate the Shincorp sale and pacifying the outside world. All those issues hold very little relevance to the demands of the majority of Thais who are living in the neglected provinces of the North and Isaarn.

[Plus]

the opposition to the coup is in those areas very strong

Speculation. I asked at least twice in this thread if it really exists and how strong it is. No responce, nothing. Nada.

Just keep repeating the same line.

[ColPyat]

the opposition to the coup is in those areas very strong

Speculation. I asked at least twice in this thread if it really exists and how strong it is. No responce, nothing. Nada.

Just keep repeating the same line.

Not for every question you can expect a quantification backed by watertight research. Exactly how strong and determined the opposition upcountry is the military does not know yet, neither does the known opposition from the traditional democracy activists from the universities. And the leaders of the known TRT affiliated and other upcountry groups keep themselves still covered presently.

What they do know though that there is strong opposition there, how strong the next couple of months will show. Neither is known if these groups who often come from very different political and ideological backgrounds will find a common platform.

If you read the published articles of statements of the government and the CNS, then you hear that they have moved away from the ridiculous number of 86% of Thais supporting the coup. Nowadays they talk about "kuen dai naam", a bit stronger than the english translation of 'undercurrents'. It should be a clear indicator that things are still very unstable.

There have been already many events that have either been completely kept out of the media, or have been played down.

[JacknDanny]

Col ppyat.

I dont know if you are writing what you believe in or are just trying to wind people up!!

You come across as intelligent, so if you have lived in Thailand and are aware of politics over here, then comparing Chuan with Thaksin is comparing day with night.

Chuan was a simple , honest , genuine, gentleman, thought of very highly by most people, particularly the hierarchy.

Thaksin, is an evil manipulator who has brought corruption to an unbelievable level. He uses the lack of education in parts of the country to his advantage. He is a ####### ####. And if you are unable to see that then you must have had your head in the sand over the past few years

[ColPyat]

Col ppyat.

I dont know if you are writing what you believe in or are just trying to wind people up!!

You come across as intelligent, so if you have lived in Thailand and are aware of politics over here, then comparing Chuan with Thaksin is comparing day with night.

Chuan was a simple , honest , genuine, gentleman, thought of very highly by most people, particularly the hierarchy.

Thaksin, is an evil manipulator who has brought corruption to an unbelievable level. He uses the lack of education in parts of the country to his advantage. He is a ####### ####. And if you are unable to see that then you must have had your head in the sand over the past few years

Well, some people here, including you, must have buried their heads in the sand before Thaksin took over.

I have already pointed out that there are huge differences between Chuan and Thaksin, but not along the simplistic 'good' vs. 'bad' lines you seem to advocate.

Chuan personally was definately most of the things you attribute him to be (not though the powers of his party - they were no differently corrupt than anybody else. May i remind you of the Sor Por Kor 401 issue that brought Chuan 1 to fall).

Neverthess, human rights violations have happened under his government, and he defended them. No help for the problems of the upcountry poor have happened under his time, and as i have pointed out - this was the main reason Thaksin was elected in the first place. And re-elected again because he fulfilled his promises to those sectors of society.

I don't understand why also westerners here fall under the usual personalisation of politics in Thailand. There are strong issues, and Thaksin was the first politician that has campaigned on a policy platform, or, at least, a resemblance of it.

These issues continue, and the Democrats still fail to form and communicate policies to the people, unless you call the constant pressing for inquiries into Thaksin as a sufficient platform for gathering votes in order to govern Thailand.

Just because one is 'liked espcially by the hirarchy' is not enough in contemporary Thailand to gather enough votes.

Edited November 9, 2006 by ColPyat

[Plus]

human rights violations have happened under his government, and he defended them

He DEFENDED human rights violations? Where? When?

Forget it, there's no point.

Also there's no point in describing how decentralisation policy started in Chuan's day would have helped poor comparing to Thaksin's handouts. Also there's no point in reminding you that he took a bankrupt country through IMF austerity measures, there was not a time for pork barrel politics or free health care. Forget it. You won't listen anyway.

[Plus]

I actually think that with farmers, time is on generals side, with educated people, it's against them.

The longer farmers live without Thaksin, the more distant memory he becomes. Nothing has changed without him, healthcare even became completely free. They won't march on Bangkok to demand constitution or media freedom.

Let's see how popular he is without marketing.

"Undercurrents", as I understand from scarce news available, is not the mass movement, it's probably just parts of TRT machinery, certainly people with power, connections, knowledge, and resources, but they need foot soldiers to achieve anything, they need masses to manipulate.

Time is not on their side as discontent with the junta is apparently limited to urbanites only.

[ColPyat]

human rights violations have happened under his government, and he defended them

He DEFENDED human rights violations? Where? When?

Forget it, there's no point.

I believe i have pointed already out that during the Ratchaburi killings he defended the actions of the forces on the ground even though there was clear evidence that the hostage takers were executed after the situation was solved. But that appearantly conveniently escapes your attention.

"Undercurrents", as I understand from scarce news available, is not the mass movement, it's probably just parts of TRT machinery, certainly people with power, connections, knowledge, and resources, but they need foot soldiers to achieve anything, they need masses to manipulate.

Well, then, if you want to understand more than maybe you should go a bit deeper than what the scarce news present you. Or, you should not speculate and debate on things that you have no information about other than what little is given to you by the media.

[Siripon]

You didn't mention the prelude to that episode. Just a few months earlier Burmese took their own embassy hostage and Chuan personally made sure that there was no blood spilt. Next time around, when they took THAI hospital hostage, no one would listen to him. There was no mercy.

I don't see how it was his personal fault.

So what?

It was a gross human rights violation for which neither the paticipants nor the ones who gave the orders were held responsible. Other than the numbers, what is the difference to the drugwar killings? People were summarily executed without due process.

How the colonel likes to wind people up! I thought he resigned from this forum a few months ago after another attack of petulance.

'A gross human rights violation'! The hospital in Ratchaburi was attacked and seized by armed gunmen, Burmese Karen. What was the government supposed to do, offer them a safe passage to....where? And risk copycat instances.

In the drugwar killings people were gunned down whereever they were, they hadn't seized hostages and demanded to be allowed to sell amphetamines, they were simply killed going about their daily business.

If you can't see the difference, well....

Anyway you must be feeling happy tonight colonel after PM Surayud promised to make income distribution one of his priorities.

Regarding sor bor kor, one of the Democrats' policies of land distribution to the poor in the 90's, do you remember who scuppered it?

Your favourite politician, Jamlong who pulled out of the Democrat coalition thus prompting an election. It seems he couldn't bear Chuan getting the spotlight after Black May in spite of Jamlong's bravery in that incident.

[ColPyat]

How the colonel likes to wind people up! I thought he resigned from this forum a few months ago after another attack of petulance.

'A gross human rights violation'! The hospital in Ratchaburi was attacked and seized by armed gunmen, Burmese Karen. What was the government supposed to do, offer them a safe passage to....where? And risk copycat instances.

In the drugwar killings people were gunned down whereever they were, they hadn't seized hostages and demanded to be allowed to sell amphetamines, they were simply killed going about their daily business.

If you can't see the difference, well....

Anyway you must be feeling happy tonight colonel after PM Surayud promised to make income distribution one of his priorities.

Regarding sor bor kor, one of the Democrats' policies of land distribution to the poor in the 90's, do you remember who scuppered it?

Your favourite politician, Jamlong who pulled out of the Democrat coalition thus prompting an election. It seems he couldn't bear Chuan getting the spotlight after Black May in spite of Jamlong's bravery in that incident.

I don't think that i like your tone. We can disagree, but still keep a minimum of politeness in order to avoid the previous flame wars.

What the government was supposed to do in the Ratchaburi affair was finding out why the killed hostage takers were all shot in the head exclusively, no further bullet holes in the room in which they were shot in a supposed firefight, and one of them even displayed on a photo with hands still cuffed in the back.

Given this evidence Chuan's position of "either us or them" sounds a tad bit strange.

Regarding Chamlong's "bravery", there often is a fine line between bravery and fanatism. Chamlong has crossed that line long before the may incident.

[Plus]

There was a police enquiry after Ratchaburi incindent, and I don't remember Chuan defending police/military killing hostage takers as you claim.

you should not speculate and debate on things that you have no information about other than what little is given to you by the media.

Didn't stop you speculating that "the opposition is very strong" just a few posts ago.

My "understanding", btw, was formed after asking no less than three times in this very thread about any evidence of this undercurrent's strength, and your attempt at excusing yourself from producing any evidence. Forget the evidence, not even a good rumor.

I can simply repeat myself as we haven't progressed even an inch.

"Speculation. I asked at least twice in this thread if it really exists and how strong it is. No response, nothing. Nada.

Just keep repeating the same line."

[ColPyat]

There was a police enquiry after Ratchaburi incindent, and I don't remember Chuan defending police/military killing hostage takers as you claim.

you should not speculate and debate on things that you have no information about other than what little is given to you by the media.

Didn't stop you speculating that "the opposition is very strong" just a few posts ago.

My "understanding", btw, was formed after asking no less than three times in this very thread about any evidence of this undercurrent's strength, and your attempt at excusing yourself from producing any evidence. Forget the evidence, not even a good rumor.

I can simply repeat myself as we haven't progressed even an inch.

"Speculation. I asked at least twice in this thread if it really exists and how strong it is. No response, nothing. Nada.

Just keep repeating the same line."

Go back a few posts and i have explained you why you cannot get presently any quantitive answer on your question regarding the size of those 'undercurrents'. That even the government, that is very keen on promoting their supposed support under the population, is worried about those 'undercurrents' should be indicator enough that they do clearly exist.

Do your own research on the subject as i cannot under present boardrules go any further. A hint - follow current affairs not just from the arm chair and behind the screen, but go to the locations and events yourself, and speak with people there.

As to Chuan defending the actions in Ratchaburi, read his quotes from the Time Asia article i have posted a few posts before. I don't remember any more in depth enquiry than the ones made about the drugwar killings after the birthday speach 2003, and with no different result. If you can find one please post it, i would be very interested.

[JacknDanny]

There was a police enquiry after Ratchaburi incindent, and I don't remember Chuan defending police/military killing hostage takers as you claim.

you should not speculate and debate on things that you have no information about other than what little is given to you by the media.

Didn't stop you speculating that "the opposition is very strong" just a few posts ago.

My "understanding", btw, was formed after asking no less than three times in this very thread about any evidence of this undercurrent's strength, and your attempt at excusing yourself from producing any evidence. Forget the evidence, not even a good rumor.

I can simply repeat myself as we haven't progressed even an inch.

"Speculation. I asked at least twice in this thread if it really exists and how strong it is. No response, nothing. Nada.

Just keep repeating the same line."

Go back a few posts and i have explained you why you cannot get presently any quantitive answer on your question regarding the size of those 'undercurrents'. That even the government, that is very keen on promoting their supposed support under the population, is worried about those 'undercurrents' should be indicator enough that they do clearly exist.

Do your own research on the subject as i cannot under present boardrules go any further. A hint - follow current affairs not just from the arm chair and behind the screen, but go to the locations and events yourself, and speak with people there.

As to Chuan defending the actions in Ratchaburi, read his quotes from the Time Asia article i have posted a few posts before. I don't remember any more in depth enquiry than the ones made about the drugwar killings after the birthday speach 2003, and with no different result. If you can find one please post it, i would be very interested.

Col pyat,

Without starting any flaming, you really are like the Bill O Reilly of Thai Visa. A big bully coming up with all sorts of untruths and because of your eloquence, make it sound like the truth. Whenever someone like Plus or Siripon challenge you because their knowledge is at least on a par with yours, your just woffle on another load of cr*p.

Everyone is entitled to their opinions. In this case you are way off the mark pal!!!!!!!!!!

[younghusband]

There was a police enquiry after Ratchaburi incindent, and I don't remember Chuan defending police/military killing hostage takers as you claim.

you should not speculate and debate on things that you have no information about other than what little is given to you by the media.

Didn't stop you speculating that "the opposition is very strong" just a few posts ago.

My "understanding", btw, was formed after asking no less than three times in this very thread about any evidence of this undercurrent's strength, and your attempt at excusing yourself from producing any evidence. Forget the evidence, not even a good rumor.

I can simply repeat myself as we haven't progressed even an inch.

"Speculation. I asked at least twice in this thread if it really exists and how strong it is. No response, nothing. Nada.

Just keep repeating the same line."

Go back a few posts and i have explained you why you cannot get presently any quantitive answer on your question regarding the size of those 'undercurrents'. That even the government, that is very keen on promoting their supposed support under the population, is worried about those 'undercurrents' should be indicator enough that they do clearly exist.

Do your own research on the subject as i cannot under present boardrules go any further. A hint - follow current affairs not just from the arm chair and behind the screen, but go to the locations and events yourself, and speak with people there.

As to Chuan defending the actions in Ratchaburi, read his quotes from the Time Asia article i have posted a few posts before. I don't remember any more in depth enquiry than the ones made about the drugwar killings after the birthday speach 2003, and with no different result. If you can find one please post it, i would be very interested.

Col pyat,

Without starting any flaming, you really are like the Bill O Reilly of Thai Visa. A big bully coming up with all sorts of untruths and because of your eloquence, make it sound like the truth. Whenever someone like Plus or Siripon challenge you because their knowledge is at least on a par with yours, your just woffle on another load of cr*p.

Everyone is entitled to their opinions. In this case you are way off the mark pal!!!!!!!!!!

Although having some issues with points made by both Colpyat and Plus, their discussion actually has a quality that is rather rare on this forum.The distinguishing feature is that both actually know and value the country with a measure of intellectual depth and experience, though obviously coming from very different sets of perception.The forum needs both of them as active participants.

What the forum doesn't need are interventions of the kind you have posted with the schoolyard mentality (and language) of syncophants ganging up on one person or another.Grow up.

[JacknDanny]

There was a police enquiry after Ratchaburi incindent, and I don't remember Chuan defending police/military killing hostage takers as you claim.

you should not speculate and debate on things that you have no information about other than what little is given to you by the media.

Didn't stop you speculating that "the opposition is very strong" just a few posts ago.

My "understanding", btw, was formed after asking no less than three times in this very thread about any evidence of this undercurrent's strength, and your attempt at excusing yourself from producing any evidence. Forget the evidence, not even a good rumor.

I can simply repeat myself as we haven't progressed even an inch.

"Speculation. I asked at least twice in this thread if it really exists and how strong it is. No response, nothing. Nada.

Just keep repeating the same line."

Go back a few posts and i have explained you why you cannot get presently any quantitive answer on your question regarding the size of those 'undercurrents'. That even the government, that is very keen on promoting their supposed support under the population, is worried about those 'undercurrents' should be indicator enough that they do clearly exist.

Do your own research on the subject as i cannot under present boardrules go any further. A hint - follow current affairs not just from the arm chair and behind the screen, but go to the locations and events yourself, and speak with people there.

As to Chuan defending the actions in Ratchaburi, read his quotes from the Time Asia article i have posted a few posts before. I don't remember any more in depth enquiry than the ones made about the drugwar killings after the birthday speach 2003, and with no different result. If you can find one please post it, i would be very interested.

Col pyat,

Without starting any flaming, you really are like the Bill O Reilly of Thai Visa. A big bully coming up with all sorts of untruths and because of your eloquence, make it sound like the truth. Whenever someone like Plus or Siripon challenge you because their knowledge is at least on a par with yours, your just woffle on another load of cr*p.

Everyone is entitled to their opinions. In this case you are way off the mark pal!!!!!!!!!!

Although having some issues with points made by both Colpyat and Plus, their discussion actually has a quality that is rather rare on this forum.The distinguishing feature is that both actually know and value the country with a measure of intellectual depth and experience, though obviously coming from very different sets of perception.The forum needs both of them as active participants.

What the forum doesn't need are interventions of the kind you have posted with the schoolyard mentality (and language) of syncophants ganging up on one person or another.Grow up.

First of all younghusband, if you are going to criticise my remarks and use big words that you do not understand, then kindly SPELL them correctly. There is no such word as 'syncophant'. The word I believe you are looking for is 'sycophant', which means 'servile self seeker who attempts to win favour by flattering influential people". As I do not know either Siripon or Plus, I could not possibly know whether they are influential or not, thereby I am innocent of the charge you accuse me of.

I am sure Col pyat is more than capable of looking after himself.

That is why this is a FORUM, different people put their different ideas on the table. My opinion is that Clo pyat is wrong and the other 2 are right.

[Totster]

Usual suspects bickering again.

If it carries on the topic will be closed, and warnings issued.

totster

[younghusband]

There was a police enquiry after Ratchaburi incindent, and I don't remember Chuan defending police/military killing hostage takers as you claim.

you should not speculate and debate on things that you have no information about other than what little is given to you by the media.

Didn't stop you speculating that "the opposition is very strong" just a few posts ago.

My "understanding", btw, was formed after asking no less than three times in this very thread about any evidence of this undercurrent's strength, and your attempt at excusing yourself from producing any evidence. Forget the evidence, not even a good rumor.

I can simply repeat myself as we haven't progressed even an inch.

"Speculation. I asked at least twice in this thread if it really exists and how strong it is. No response, nothing. Nada.

Just keep repeating the same line."

Go back a few posts and i have explained you why you cannot get presently any quantitive answer on your question regarding the size of those 'undercurrents'. That even the government, that is very keen on promoting their supposed support under the population, is worried about those 'undercurrents' should be indicator enough that they do clearly exist.

Do your own research on the subject as i cannot under present boardrules go any further. A hint - follow current affairs not just from the arm chair and behind the screen, but go to the locations and events yourself, and speak with people there.

As to Chuan defending the actions in Ratchaburi, read his quotes from the Time Asia article i have posted a few posts before. I don't remember any more in depth enquiry than the ones made about the drugwar killings after the birthday speach 2003, and with no different result. If you can find one please post it, i would be very interested.

Col pyat,

Without starting any flaming, you really are like the Bill O Reilly of Thai Visa. A big bully coming up with all sorts of untruths and because of your eloquence, make it sound like the truth. Whenever someone like Plus or Siripon challenge you because their knowledge is at least on a par with yours, your just woffle on another load of cr*p.

Everyone is entitled to their opinions. In this case you are way off the mark pal!!!!!!!!!!

Although having some issues with points made by both Colpyat and Plus, their discussion actually has a quality that is rather rare on this forum.The distinguishing feature is that both actually know and value the country with a measure of intellectual depth and experience, though obviously coming from very different sets of perception.The forum needs both of them as active participants.

What the forum doesn't need are interventions of the kind you have posted with the schoolyard mentality (and language) of syncophants ganging up on one person or another.Grow up.

First of all younghusband, if you are going to criticise my remarks and use big words that you do not understand, then kindly SPELL them correctly. There is no such word as 'syncophant'. The word I believe you are looking for is 'sycophant', which means 'servile self seeker who attempts to win favour by flattering influential people". As I do not know either Siripon or Plus, I could not possibly know whether they are influential or not, thereby I am innocent of the charge you accuse me of.

I am sure Col pyat is more than capable of looking after himself.

That is why this is a FORUM, different people put their different ideas on the table. My opinion is that Clo pyat is wrong and the other 2 are right.

Deleted in view of mod's comments

Edited November 10, 2006 by younghusband

[hammered]

Heard from my wifes side relatives in the North. They are mostly elderly poor farming folk with all their kids having left for other places. Anyway they were saying in the villages they live in most people want to get on with life and are not bothered if Thaksin comes back or not. They are more interested in keeping the 30 baht health plan and seem to think they will. However, there are influential people who used to be with Thaksin who are trying to stir things up. At least in the families villages they have had little sucess to date. These stirrers tend not to be the big influential people who locally have distanced themselves from Thaksin quite noticeably. They are a lower rung of influentials who owe their position and influence totally to Thaksin and TRT. Atleast some of the family recognize this too.

Thing are not as simple as they are often presented.

[Plus]

More or less as I thought. Ordinary folks don't really care about Thaksin as long as their lives are not affected, but some disgruntled "dark influences" might try to stir up trouble. The longer the situation drags on, the less support for their cause they find. Thaksin is becoming last year boyfriend. Timt to move on.

Completely opposite situation in Bangkok - more and more people are running out of patience.

People demand Constitution and so far there has been little progress on that front.

On the positive side, the generals seem to respond to public pressure far better than Thaksin.

[ColPyat]

Anyway they were saying in the villages they live in most people want to get on with life and are not bothered if Thaksin comes back or not.

Obviously the vast majority of people do not ever consider going to demonstrations and such, they have better things to do, whatever their political position may be. The question though is how many people would consider going. A few thousand, or a few tenthousand are not many if compared to whole population of those provinces, but if congregated in one place, they look like a whole lot. And their number can be exagerated as well, as you have seen in the PAD demonstrations in which there were never more than 50 000 people (though cleverly exagerated by organisers and supportative media).

During the days of the Lumpini Park show, i did not imagine that this small bunch of people, only a few thousand at most at the time, were able to ever be more than a pimple on Thaksin's behind.

Organsisations such as the 'Caravan of the Poor' (pro Thaksin), the 'Assembly of the Poor' (no direct party affiliation though as far as i know not pro coup), or the Taxi driver association (vehemently pro TRT and anti coup) are still existing. Many other organisations are not pro coup as well.

Don't forget either that the army is not monolithic, and the coup has disturbed vested interests and carreers there.

We do not know how the connections between TRT leadership and the lower ranks you decribed are, if there is one, or not.

And yes, 'dark influences', and not so dark influences are stirring things up. How successful they will be, and how much support they will have under the population partly depends on the performance of the government, and on the condition of the economy.

So far the government talks a lot, some makes sense, some not. But real results have not been achieved, so far. And i have no idea yet how the economy is doing now.

The political unrest of the last 9 months or so is about far wider issues than just Thaksin alone. Boardrules prohibit me from being any less cryptic, but you may guess my meaning. Therefore i do fear that we will have to live with instability for some time to come.

Edited November 10, 2006 by ColPyat

[hammered]

Anyway they were saying in the villages they live in most people want to get on with life and are not bothered if Thaksin comes back or not.

Obviously the vast majority of people do not ever consider going to demonstrations and such, they have better things to do, whatever their political position may be. The question though is how many people would consider going. A few thousand, or a few tenthousand are not many if compared to whole population of those provinces, but if congregated in one place, they look like a whole lot. And their number can be exagerated as well, as you have seen in the PAD demonstrations in which there were never more than 50 000 people (though cleverly exagerated by organisers and supportative media).

During the days of the Lumpini Park show, i did not imagine that this small bunch of people, only a few thousand at most at the time, were able to ever be more than a pimple on Thaksin's behind.

Organsisations such as the 'Caravan of the Poor' (pro Thaksin), the 'Assembly of the Poor' (no direct party affiliation though as far as i know not pro coup), or the Taxi driver association (vehemently pro TRT and anti coup) are still existing. Many other organisations are not pro coup as well.

Don't forget either that the army is not monolithic, and the coup has disturbed vested interests and carreers there.

We do not know how the connections between TRT leadership and the lower ranks you decribed are, if there is one, or not.

And yes, 'dark influences', and not so dark influences are stirring things up. How successful they will be, and how much support they will have under the population partly depends on the performance of the government, and on the condition of the economy.

So far the government talks a lot, some makes sense, some not. But real results have not been achieved, so far. And i have no idea yet how the economy is doing now.

The political unrest of the last 9 months or so is about far wider issues than just Thaksin alone. Boardrules prohibit me from being any less cryptic, but you may guess my meaning. Therefore i do fear that we will have to live with instability for some time to come.

I wouldnt disagree with any of that, and the information I have is only a snapshot from several villages in 2 provinces up North.

At first I also thought that it only helped Mr. Thaksin by his constantly being in the media but now I start to wonder if the current government would also rather have all talk focused on a guy a long way away rather than other stuff. It is as you say quite complicated.

[ando]

Good to see the country has been returned to a state of freedom and democracy now that the evil dictator has been deposed

Opps, -- Am I allowed to say that?