Gen Prawit hints at curbs on UDD’s anti-cheating centres

[smedly]

Let these insidious people do their best.

Lie , cheat, steal , lock away and keep oppressive law.

Those who marched in Bangkok would be regretful .( by now)

Let sanctions occur .

Let the country slide.

This was all done in the name of elites.

Intervention by army coup came when only dozens remained listening to the hate filled ranters.

The excuses did not cut then (don't now.)

They are not a government but military body.

And the real cheating is even attempting audaciously to maintain that control.

As for westerners with faded memories or some distorted view of events why bother.

They are meaningless to the reality.

And the faster the army oppress and cement their dominance over the population the faster the population will realise its choices ahead.

And world respond in kind

hard to tell who exactly you are referring too, sounds very much like stinking rich corrupt shin family and all those that feed from the trough they create - and there are many

[rubl]

Let these insidious people do their best.

Lie , cheat, steal , lock away and keep oppressive law.

Those who marched in Bangkok would be regretful .( by now)

Let sanctions occur .

Let the country slide.

This was all done in the name of elites.

Intervention by army coup came when only dozens remained listening to the hate filled ranters.

The excuses did not cut then (don't now.)

They are not a government but military body.

And the real cheating is even attempting audaciously to maintain that control.

As for westerners with faded memories or some distorted view of events why bother.

They are meaningless to the reality.

And the faster the army oppress and cement their dominance over the population the faster the population will realise its choices ahead.

And world respond in kind

I beg to differ. The UDD and their boss have shown no remorse. The boss is still in elite form just like his sister.

As for world respond, keep dreaming.

After all "no need for a referendum", "we wanr a referendum", "we want a different referendum", "we don't like the draft charter", "we don't read the draft charter", "it's a bad draft charter", we will finally have the referendum. It looks like the same number of Thai like in 1997 and 2007 will have actually read the draft. That's a few busloads, even the (Thai reading) foreigners here seem to add up to more. My conclusion the Thai will vote again like someone has told them. That's something you don't see at the polling day. so no need for observers.

[smutcakes]

This discussion and most of the posts on this thread are quite frankly pointless, the UDD have no mandate or authority to even comment on such matters for a start.

Does anyone actually know what value an observer would add.............

When people vote they generally do it in private - no foul can be detected at that level

People talk about vote buying in Thailand like there is someone standing at the booth offering 500 baht to tick a certain box, that is not how vote buying in Thailand works, it all takes place in the villages through the head man, he distributes the funds to his flock and they are told to vote a certain way, they have no choice - money talks and elections are bought here, no observers will ever be in a position to witness vote buying in Thailand, nobody will ever dare speak out about it but we all no it goes on and is prolific

Which one is it? Voting is done in private so presumably they have a choice of what way to vote? Yet you say they have no choice?

If it is done in private, but they have no choice, what are you implying? That boxes are tampered with? Or the way people vote is being made known to someone?

Your post seems to contradict itself.

[rubl]

As even Winnie reminded me when I explicitly wrote "this is my opinion", you guys also have opinions. Somewhat weird ones the last replies here suggest, but still your opinions.

There's no need for PR, the junta isn't into those 'democratic' games. To have foreign observers may be nice, but that's not good enough a reason, not even if the foreign organisation pays the bill.

As for having the UDD around. As long as they do not deny or play down having a criminal fugitive as 'de facto' leader they should be denied.

I wrote before, we'll have a few policemen and maybe a few soldiers around the polling stations and that should be enough. Even the temporarily taking care of the empty PM caretaker position the caretaking MoFA Surapong suggested the army raise Martial Law and post at polling stations for the election. So, from that side no objections either.

Aye, to the junta by your own words and yourself by extension as an unwavering loyalist to them, democracy is a "game". Enough said.

Are the few policemen and maybe few soldiers round polling stations and the caretaking MOFA Surapong regular contributors here, then? And how do you know these a few policemen and maybe few soldiers are one with your categorical statement that there is no need for observers?

As agreed, no consensus that observers would not be desirable.

Try to read and understand, my dear baboon. I wrote the junta is not into those democratic games in relation to someone suggesting the PR value of having foreign observers.

The police and/or soldiers are normally there at polling stations, every time. No need to suggest they've been observers only.

Agreed, no consensus on 'observers not desirable', just like no consensus on 'observers desirable'. Mind you, most reasons given are based on distrust and heresay and therefore without real value. The "good PR" reason has no value.

[rubl]

This discussion and most of the posts on this thread are quite frankly pointless, the UDD have no mandate or authority to even comment on such matters for a start.

Does anyone actually know what value an observer would add.............

When people vote they generally do it in private - no foul can be detected at that level

People talk about vote buying in Thailand like there is someone standing at the booth offering 500 baht to tick a certain box, that is not how vote buying in Thailand works, it all takes place in the villages through the head man, he distributes the funds to his flock and they are told to vote a certain way, they have no choice - money talks and elections are bought here, no observers will ever be in a position to witness vote buying in Thailand, nobody will ever dare speak out about it but we all no it goes on and is prolific

Which one is it? Voting is done in private so presumably they have a choice of what way to vote? Yet you say they have no choice?

If it is done in private, but they have no choice, what are you implying? That boxes are tampered with? Or the way people vote is being made known to someone?

Your post seems to contradict itself.

The social pressure and the repercussions make the choice a 'no choice'. If you knew more about how life in rural Thailand is controlled you would know this.

[smedly]

Let these insidious people do their best.

Lie , cheat, steal , lock away and keep oppressive law.

Those who marched in Bangkok would be regretful .( by now)

Let sanctions occur .

Let the country slide.

This was all done in the name of elites.

Intervention by army coup came when only dozens remained listening to the hate filled ranters.

The excuses did not cut then (don't now.)

They are not a government but military body.

And the real cheating is even attempting audaciously to maintain that control.

As for westerners with faded memories or some distorted view of events why bother.

They are meaningless to the reality.

And the faster the army oppress and cement their dominance over the population the faster the population will realise its choices ahead.

And world respond in kind

I beg to differ. The UDD and their boss have shown no remorse. The boss is still in elite form just like his sister.

As for world respond, keep dreaming.

After all "no need for a referendum", "we wanr a referendum", "we want a different referendum", "we don't like the draft charter", "we don't read the draft charter", "it's a bad draft charter", we will finally have the referendum. It looks like the same number of Thai like in 1997 and 2007 will have actually read the draft. That's a few busloads, even the (Thai reading) foreigners here seem to add up to more. My conclusion the Thai will vote again like someone has told them. That's something you don't see at the polling day. so no need for observers.

another very sensible post from someone who usually makes sense

100% correct mate

[Eric Loh]

This discussion and most of the posts on this thread are quite frankly pointless, the UDD have no mandate or authority to even comment on such matters for a start.

Does anyone actually know what value an observer would add.............

When people vote they generally do it in private - no foul can be detected at that level

People talk about vote buying in Thailand like there is someone standing at the booth offering 500 baht to tick a certain box, that is not how vote buying in Thailand works, it all takes place in the villages through the head man, he distributes the funds to his flock and they are told to vote a certain way, they have no choice - money talks and elections are bought here, no observers will ever be in a position to witness vote buying in Thailand, nobody will ever dare speak out about it but we all no it goes on and is prolific

Now that we know how vote buying works, we really need neutral observers when you consider that the junta has full control from village head upwards and they have the financial might to bus in voters and influence voters. Don't you think so?

[smedly]

This discussion and most of the posts on this thread are quite frankly pointless, the UDD have no mandate or authority to even comment on such matters for a start.

Does anyone actually know what value an observer would add.............

When people vote they generally do it in private - no foul can be detected at that level

People talk about vote buying in Thailand like there is someone standing at the booth offering 500 baht to tick a certain box, that is not how vote buying in Thailand works, it all takes place in the villages through the head man, he distributes the funds to his flock and they are told to vote a certain way, they have no choice - money talks and elections are bought here, no observers will ever be in a position to witness vote buying in Thailand, nobody will ever dare speak out about it but we all no it goes on and is prolific

Which one is it? Voting is done in private so presumably they have a choice of what way to vote? Yet you say they have no choice?

If it is done in private, but they have no choice, what are you implying? That boxes are tampered with? Or the way people vote is being made known to someone?

Your post seems to contradict itself.

I thought you said you understood how it works here or at least you seem to think so

should I continue or are you getting it.....here's a (no) clue

[smutcakes]

This discussion and most of the posts on this thread are quite frankly pointless, the UDD have no mandate or authority to even comment on such matters for a start.

Does anyone actually know what value an observer would add.............

When people vote they generally do it in private - no foul can be detected at that level

People talk about vote buying in Thailand like there is someone standing at the booth offering 500 baht to tick a certain box, that is not how vote buying in Thailand works, it all takes place in the villages through the head man, he distributes the funds to his flock and they are told to vote a certain way, they have no choice - money talks and elections are bought here, no observers will ever be in a position to witness vote buying in Thailand, nobody will ever dare speak out about it but we all no it goes on and is prolific

Which one is it? Voting is done in private so presumably they have a choice of what way to vote? Yet you say they have no choice?

If it is done in private, but they have no choice, what are you implying? That boxes are tampered with? Or the way people vote is being made known to someone?

Your post seems to contradict itself.

The social pressure and the repercussions make the choice a 'no choice'. If you knew more about how life in rural Thailand is controlled you would know this.

But its private Rubl, so you are saying that the results are not private?

Would this rank on your value added for foreign observers to check that the results remain private?

[smedly]

this threads content is now just megga trolling

please carry on without me

PS I hope army staff are doing the counting lol

Edited June 17, 2016 by smedly

[smutcakes]

This discussion and most of the posts on this thread are quite frankly pointless, the UDD have no mandate or authority to even comment on such matters for a start.

Does anyone actually know what value an observer would add.............

When people vote they generally do it in private - no foul can be detected at that level

People talk about vote buying in Thailand like there is someone standing at the booth offering 500 baht to tick a certain box, that is not how vote buying in Thailand works, it all takes place in the villages through the head man, he distributes the funds to his flock and they are told to vote a certain way, they have no choice - money talks and elections are bought here, no observers will ever be in a position to witness vote buying in Thailand, nobody will ever dare speak out about it but we all no it goes on and is prolific

Which one is it? Voting is done in private so presumably they have a choice of what way to vote? Yet you say they have no choice?

If it is done in private, but they have no choice, what are you implying? That boxes are tampered with? Or the way people vote is being made known to someone?

Your post seems to contradict itself.

I thought you said you understood how it works here or at least you seem to think so

should I continue or are you getting it.....here's a (no) clue

So no answer?

You said they voted in private, so essentially they have a choice- yet you also said they have no choice?

Which is it?

[smutcakes]

this threads content is now just megga trolling

please carry on without me

PS I hope army staff are doing the counting lol

Translated: I have tied myself in knots and been pulled up on it.

I have no answer so i will spit my dummy, claim everyone is wumming and sulk off.

[Plutojames88]

Let these insidious people do their best.

Lie , cheat, steal , lock away and keep oppressive law.

Those who marched in Bangkok would be regretful .( by now)

Let sanctions occur .

Let the country slide.

This was all done in the name of elites.

Intervention by army coup came when only dozens remained listening to the hate filled ranters.

The excuses did not cut then (don't now.)

They are not a government but military body.

And the real cheating is even attempting audaciously to maintain that control.

As for westerners with faded memories or some distorted view of events why bother.

They are meaningless to the reality.

And the faster the army oppress and cement their dominance over the population the faster the population will realise its choices ahead.

And world respond in kind

They are not regretful- this is exactly what they want. Sure they might differ a little here and there, but overall they dont want democracy and they certainly dont want to have what they perceive as lower class people having a say in issues.

The massive irony about the anti-corruption protests being that the bed rock of them was formed by the Thai bureaucracy and Government sectors, which as anyone in Thailand knows are corrupt to the core.

I wish they would just call a spade a spade and say what it really is. It is simply the self-proclaimed upper class and their judicial, bureaucratic and military allies not wanting to lose control of the corruption/wealth that they have come to think as their divine right.

A simple look at most Government departments and the people working there would show a huge web of interlinked family /friend ties, they are like giant mafia organizations, who all just follow the leader, and invariably the leaders are part of the old Bangkok clique whose families have been milking the country since the beginning of time.

Though true many misguided gold shop owners and spoilt students , air hosties, and mall workers joined in knowing their personal proximity to divine right.

Many now watch the wheels fall off as they now spin ever so slowly.

Shops don't make the profits business is bad.

Freedoms curtailed.

Early days ......

But the course is set.

And it's maybe one ride no one get off?

The country is unlikely to remain peaceful

Edited June 17, 2016 by Plutojames88

[GeorgesAbitbol]

this threads content is now just megga trolling

please carry on without me

PS I hope army staff are doing the counting lol

PS I hope army staff are doing the counting lol

How is the River Kwai Bridge?

[Plutojames88]

this threads content is now just megga trolling

please carry on without me

PS I hope army staff are doing the counting lol

PS I hope army staff are doing the counting lol

How is the River Kwai Bridge?

Sure Cowards might not care until reds come to town , and hell breaks loose.

And oppression of a mass population of some 68 million by a tiny sector is a ticking time bomb

This thread highlights the processes and perceived rigging ...limited speech and oppression.

A historical account in discourse of events that won't end well long term

Edited June 17, 2016 by Plutojames88

[heybruce]

This discussion and most of the posts on this thread are quite frankly pointless, the UDD have no mandate or authority to even comment on such matters for a start.

Does anyone actually know what value an observer would add.............

When people vote they generally do it in private - no foul can be detected at that level

People talk about vote buying in Thailand like there is someone standing at the booth offering 500 baht to tick a certain box, that is not how vote buying in Thailand works, it all takes place in the villages through the head man, he distributes the funds to his flock and they are told to vote a certain way, they have no choice - money talks and elections are bought here, no observers will ever be in a position to witness vote buying in Thailand, nobody will ever dare speak out about it but we all no it goes on and is prolific

Which one is it? Voting is done in private so presumably they have a choice of what way to vote? Yet you say they have no choice?

If it is done in private, but they have no choice, what are you implying? That boxes are tampered with? Or the way people vote is being made known to someone?

Your post seems to contradict itself.

Doesn't seem to contradict itself, it does contradict itself. It also presents a good argument for neutral, meaning foreign, observers.

[heybruce]

this threads content is now just megga trolling

please carry on without me

PS I hope army staff are doing the counting lol

"PS I hope army staff are doing the counting lol"

So you're hoping for election fraud conducted by the army. Nobody's surprised.

Edited June 17, 2016 by heybruce

[heybruce]

I had to look up wumming: the verb form of wum (wind-up merchant), a predominantly online phenomena of espousing contrary viewpoints purely to string people along and get a reaction from others. a mild-mannered form of trolling.

Perfect description. Many excellent reasons for international observers to monitor the referendum, no reason not to have them for anyone interested in a fair vote. rubl rejects this without explanation other than to describe all reasons for observers--rule by a military that staged a coup against an elected government, censorship of the press and population at large, a history of vote buying that meant a great deal to junta supporters in the past but for some reason isn't important now--as assumptions without value.

As defending the junta and its actions becomes harder I predict rubl will use this tactic more frequently--abandon any pretense of rational debate and dismiss all posts he dislikes as being without value.

Regarding "no insults", it was just a few days ago that you dismissed my posts as "rubbish" without any explanation why. You can't insult others then expect them to respect your new "no insults" request. Just as you can't insist people stay narrowly focused on-topic on some threads while going wildly off-topic with "amnesty bill" and "convicted fugitive" on others.

Apples and oranges. Plus a UDD which has a criminal fugitive as de facto leader and still demands to be present as observers. 'good reasons' only as seen by some depending on value given. No reason for PR as some suggested. Annoying isn't it, not even the UDD denies or tries to play down that 'de facto' leadership of our most favourite criminal fugitive. Still an excellent reason not to 'invite' the UDD to sent observers.

BTW describing post content as BS is not the same as calling someone a liar, or suggesting he has problems with the truth.

So, Heybruce the windup artist

My posts were about the need for international monitors for the referendum, they had nothing to do with the UDD or PR. Many reasons good reasons have been given for international monitors, none have been given against them.

You posted:

"till now the reasoning for UDD and foreign observers is based on assumptions without real value."

Of course you don't attempt to explain why the excellent reason for foreign observers have no real value.

BTW nobody called you a liar that I'm aware of, though many people have called your posts BS. The difference is that when call call your posts BS we generally explain why. When you call other posts BS you don't explain why, which is insulting. It's also trolling.

Good reasons is your interpretation and a few others. It seems based on distrust, unjustified distrust, expecially as the same guys suggested the referendum doesn't really matter. The suggestion by one of the PR value of having foreign observers is no valid reason.

There is no reason to have the UDD around as long as they have no problem with that criminal fugitive as 'de facto' leader. That 'self-exiled' running away from the law figure.

BTW you yourself called me a liar a while ago. I appended the clasp to my signature that time. You also called me 'associating with and being dregs of Thai society'. Some call me desperate or despicable or say I should be ashamed of myself. In another topic Winnie wrote " I'm sure this is not the first time in your life that honesty and a certain tendency to right-wing views have been a problem for you"

All because I have an opinion different from what you and others here tell I should have.

The truth will set you free and that's not trolling.

I don't recall calling you a liar, but if you post a link to the offending post I'm sure we will find a demonstrable lie. Regarding you associating with the dregs of Thai society, you've repeatedly posted derogatory posts about Thais. I don't recall you ever posting anything positive about Thai's, either individually or collectively. I can't see how this can be true unless you only associate with the dregs of Thai society.

Your are trying to shift the argument away from the need for foreign observers/monitors of the referendum and focusing on the UDD observers. I and others have focused on the need for international monitoring of the vote. This need is clear to everyone, especially those hoping to fix the vote without getting caught.

"It seems based on distrust, unjustified distrust, expecially as the same guys suggested the referendum doesn't really matter."

How remarkably astute of you, you noticed that a lot of people don't trust the junta. What was your first clue?

Some people think the referendum doesn't matter. I'm not one of them. I don't think the referendum will return democracy to Thailand, but a rejection will strongly influence how the junta maintains control, and make it harder to justify continued undemocratic rule. What happens then is unknown.

[Winniedapu]

Interesting commentaries on the referendum, but it is less than 2 months away. The result is already determined.

My bet on the probability as it shows itself today, is a landslide defeat (rightly because the draft charter is a piece of cr@p), followed immediately by a brief period of calm and then multitudinous tantrums by Dumpy and Grumpy, followed by article 44 imposition of a draft charter suspiciously similar but carefully not the same as the one defeated.

Then sit back and watch the international community run around like headless chookies. Alas the danger of assuming that Thai pooyays will behave like normal people, Normal people they aren't.

My opinion.

W

[rubl]

This discussion and most of the posts on this thread are quite frankly pointless, the UDD have no mandate or authority to even comment on such matters for a start.

Does anyone actually know what value an observer would add.............

When people vote they generally do it in private - no foul can be detected at that level

People talk about vote buying in Thailand like there is someone standing at the booth offering 500 baht to tick a certain box, that is not how vote buying in Thailand works, it all takes place in the villages through the head man, he distributes the funds to his flock and they are told to vote a certain way, they have no choice - money talks and elections are bought here, no observers will ever be in a position to witness vote buying in Thailand, nobody will ever dare speak out about it but we all no it goes on and is prolific

Which one is it? Voting is done in private so presumably they have a choice of what way to vote? Yet you say they have no choice?

If it is done in private, but they have no choice, what are you implying? That boxes are tampered with? Or the way people vote is being made known to someone?

Your post seems to contradict itself.

The social pressure and the repercussions make the choice a 'no choice'. If you knew more about how life in rural Thailand is controlled you would know this.

But its private Rubl, so you are saying that the results are not private?

Would this rank on your value added for foreign observers to check that the results remain private?

Oh the results are private, of course. It's just that there are other circumstances which escape any foreign observer and TVF posters. Like the number of votes cast and the expectation some have of the results. The polling station people who may or may not talk afterwards. Foreign observers cannot cover what's only mentality.

Training in democracy would be a step in the right direction. From a NDI document on training for democracy as they've done in countries not used to it, like the Gaza Strip and Bosnia.

"For democracy to develop and endure as a form of government, citizens need to exercise their

rights and responsibilities. Without the active involvement of citizens in political life, government

power can be abused and the basic rights and freedoms guaranteed by democracy can eventually be

limited. Because democracy requires informed public participation, citizens must first understand

diverse ideas about citizenship, politics and government. Moreover, they need the knowledge to

make decisions about the proper use of authority, along with the skills to voice their concerns and to

hold government officials accountable.

In many emerging democracies, citizens are accustomed to playing no role in political affairs

and are conditioned to be deferential to a “top-down” system of authority. This situation is often found

in former communist countries, as well as nations traditionally segregated along ethnic or tribal lines,

or surfacing from military dictatorships. In each case, individual rights and freedoms were limited,

and government decisionmaking was often arbitrary. Consequently, citizens enter their respective

transition process with inherent assumptions and experiences that frequently contradict the principles

and practices of democracy. Although democracy is typically viewed favorably, inexperience and

widespread misunderstanding about its true nature often limit the ability of citizens to participate

effectively in democratic political processes."

[rubl]

Good reasons is your interpretation and a few others. It seems based on distrust, unjustified distrust, expecially as the same guys suggested the referendum doesn't really matter. The suggestion by one of the PR value of having foreign observers is no valid reason.

There is no reason to have the UDD around as long as they have no problem with that criminal fugitive as 'de facto' leader. That 'self-exiled' running away from the law figure.

BTW you yourself called me a liar a while ago. I appended the clasp to my signature that time. You also called me 'associating with and being dregs of Thai society'. Some call me desperate or despicable or say I should be ashamed of myself. In another topic Winnie wrote " I'm sure this is not the first time in your life that honesty and a certain tendency to right-wing views have been a problem for you"

All because I have an opinion different from what you and others here tell I should have.

The truth will set you free and that's not trolling.

I don't recall calling you a liar, but if you post a link to the offending post I'm sure we will find a demonstrable lie. Regarding you associating with the dregs of Thai society, you've repeatedly posted derogatory posts about Thais. I don't recall you ever posting anything positive about Thai's, either individually or collectively. I can't see how this can be true unless you only associate with the dregs of Thai society.

Your are trying to shift the argument away from the need for foreign observers/monitors of the referendum and focusing on the UDD observers. I and others have focused on the need for international monitoring of the vote. This need is clear to everyone, especially those hoping to fix the vote without getting caught.

"It seems based on distrust, unjustified distrust, expecially as the same guys suggested the referendum doesn't really matter."

How remarkably astute of you, you noticed that a lot of people don't trust the junta. What was your first clue?

Some people think the referendum doesn't matter. I'm not one of them. I don't think the referendum will return democracy to Thailand, but a rejection will strongly influence how the junta maintains control, and make it harder to justify continued undemocratic rule. What happens then is unknown.

"Your are trying to shift the argument away from the need for foreign observers/monitors of the referendum and focusing on the UDD observers. I and others have focused on the need for international monitoring of the vote. This need is clear to everyone, especially those hoping to fix the vote without getting caught."

Actually you are trying to shift and I humour you by giving reasons why I see no need for foreign observers following which I return to the topic of "Gen Prawit hints at curbs on UDD’s anti-cheating centres"

"How remarkably astute of you, you noticed that a lot of people don't trust the junta. What was your first clue?"

A handful of posters here who try to keep on pushing for foreign observers for reasons they think important. Reasons like "PR value", "why not", etc.

"Some people think the referendum doesn't matter. I'm not one of them. I don't think the referendum will return democracy to Thailand, but a rejection will strongly influence how the junta maintains control, and make it harder to justify continued undemocratic rule. What happens then is unknown. "

That's what you think, I think differently.

Now to the insults

"I don't recall calling you a liar, but if you post a link to the offending post I'm sure we will find a demonstrable lie. Regarding you associating with the dregs of Thai society, you've repeatedly posted derogatory posts about Thais. I don't recall you ever posting anything positive about Thai's, either individually or collectively. I can't see how this can be true unless you only associate with the dregs of Thai society."

We will not find as TVF is difficult to search. At that time there was only a Heybruce not liking my opinion and calling what I wrote a lie. Even more interesting is the dregs part. Dregs of society are the lower classes, the dropouts, the poor, all those a democracy tries to take care of. Posters here even justly complain when someone calls red-shirts buffaloes and lower classes. So as fighter for democracy as you'd like to have it known you're fighting for the rights of the dregs, including my rights. Now that's nice. Of course the "I can't see" covers the possibility you might be wrong about me and the need to defend me.

ADD: actually I found it

I wrote

"No, those opposed to a government with a pretty face as PM and run by a criminal fugitive, the one from the topic warning about democracy."

and you didn't like that and gave it your own interpretation

"You lied rubl, you are clearly opposed to that elected government, and eager to avoid new elections in a real democracy because you know you once again won't like the results."

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/908898-thaksin-warns-on-democracy-economy-in-new-year-message/page-4#entry10623794

Edited June 17, 2016 by rubl

[Plutojames88]

Criminal Is Thaksin

Good is junta

It's pure comedy.

Sad but true people exist that see these ironic constrictions of logic

Without the slightest contradiction to self awareness of their error

Edited June 17, 2016 by Plutojames88

[heybruce]

Good reasons is your interpretation and a few others. It seems based on distrust, unjustified distrust, expecially as the same guys suggested the referendum doesn't really matter. The suggestion by one of the PR value of having foreign observers is no valid reason.

There is no reason to have the UDD around as long as they have no problem with that criminal fugitive as 'de facto' leader. That 'self-exiled' running away from the law figure.

BTW you yourself called me a liar a while ago. I appended the clasp to my signature that time. You also called me 'associating with and being dregs of Thai society'. Some call me desperate or despicable or say I should be ashamed of myself. In another topic Winnie wrote " I'm sure this is not the first time in your life that honesty and a certain tendency to right-wing views have been a problem for you"

All because I have an opinion different from what you and others here tell I should have.

The truth will set you free and that's not trolling.

I don't recall calling you a liar, but if you post a link to the offending post I'm sure we will find a demonstrable lie. Regarding you associating with the dregs of Thai society, you've repeatedly posted derogatory posts about Thais. I don't recall you ever posting anything positive about Thai's, either individually or collectively. I can't see how this can be true unless you only associate with the dregs of Thai society.

Your are trying to shift the argument away from the need for foreign observers/monitors of the referendum and focusing on the UDD observers. I and others have focused on the need for international monitoring of the vote. This need is clear to everyone, especially those hoping to fix the vote without getting caught.

"It seems based on distrust, unjustified distrust, expecially as the same guys suggested the referendum doesn't really matter."

How remarkably astute of you, you noticed that a lot of people don't trust the junta. What was your first clue?

Some people think the referendum doesn't matter. I'm not one of them. I don't think the referendum will return democracy to Thailand, but a rejection will strongly influence how the junta maintains control, and make it harder to justify continued undemocratic rule. What happens then is unknown.

"Your are trying to shift the argument away from the need for foreign observers/monitors of the referendum and focusing on the UDD observers. I and others have focused on the need for international monitoring of the vote. This need is clear to everyone, especially those hoping to fix the vote without getting caught."

Actually you are trying to shift and I humour you by giving reasons why I see no need for foreign observers following which I return to the topic of "Gen Prawit hints at curbs on UDD’s anti-cheating centres"

"How remarkably astute of you, you noticed that a lot of people don't trust the junta. What was your first clue?"

A handful of posters here who try to keep on pushing for foreign observers for reasons they think important. Reasons like "PR value", "why not", etc.

"Some people think the referendum doesn't matter. I'm not one of them. I don't think the referendum will return democracy to Thailand, but a rejection will strongly influence how the junta maintains control, and make it harder to justify continued undemocratic rule. What happens then is unknown. "

That's what you think, I think differently.

Now to the insults

"I don't recall calling you a liar, but if you post a link to the offending post I'm sure we will find a demonstrable lie. Regarding you associating with the dregs of Thai society, you've repeatedly posted derogatory posts about Thais. I don't recall you ever posting anything positive about Thai's, either individually or collectively. I can't see how this can be true unless you only associate with the dregs of Thai society."

We will not find as TVF is difficult to search. At that time there was only a Heybruce not liking my opinion and calling what I wrote a lie. Even more interesting is the dregs part. Dregs of society are the lower classes, the dropouts, the poor, all those a democracy tries to take care of. Posters here even justly complain when someone calls red-shirts buffaloes and lower classes. So as fighter for democracy as you'd like to have it known you're fighting for the rights of the dregs, including my rights. Now that's nice. Of course the "I can't see" covers the possibility you might be wrong about me and the need to defend me.

ADD: actually I found it

I wrote

"No, those opposed to a government with a pretty face as PM and run by a criminal fugitive, the one from the topic warning about democracy."

and you didn't like that and gave it your own interpretation

"You lied rubl, you are clearly opposed to that elected government, and eager to avoid new elections in a real democracy because you know you once again won't like the results."

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/908898-thaksin-warns-on-democracy-economy-in-new-year-message/page-4#entry10623794

"Actually you are trying to shift and I humour you by giving reasons why I see no need for foreign observers following which I return to the topic of "Gen Prawit hints at curbs on UDD’s anti-cheating centres""

The topic does cover foreign observers and Prawit's opposition to them. From the OP:

"General Prawit said that there is no need for the UDD or any political groups to set up centres to monitor the referendum in order to prevent possible cheating because there are two already two agencies responsible for monitoring the referendum namely the Election Commission and the government sector’s Anti-Corruption Commission.’

He also dismissed any suggestion of bringing in foreign observers to observe the referendum, saying that referendum is an internal affairs of Thailand."

"A handful of posters here who try to keep on pushing for foreign observers for reasons they think important. Reasons like "PR value", "why not", etc."

Of course you want to focus on these easy to dismiss reasons. My reasons for foreign observers are:

1. The junta came to power by toppling an elected government, showing contempt for election results.

2. The junta has censored press and speech, making a free election and monitoring of the election by the press impossible.

3. Many junta supporters insist that Thai elections always suffer from vote buying, voter intimidation, and other faults. Foreign observers will help alleviate these problems.

Can you explain why these are not valid reasons for foreign observers?

Regarding my stating that you lied, I stand by it. When have you ever supported an elected government in Thailand?

Regarding my stating you only associated with the dregs of Thai society, prove me wrong. Tell us about the fine and admirable Thai people in your life.

[Dumbastheycome]

As usual the debate has devolved into personal insult rather than the real focus of the original issue. And the basis of that is that the outcome of current enactions is totally outside of any influences of the majority of belligerants here.

Personal opinion of historical , current ,or outcome eventualities need remain opinion rather than edicts. God gifts of the mind are irrelevant.

[Plutojames88]

As usual the debate has devolved into personal insult rather than the real focus of the original issue. And the basis of that is that the outcome of current enactions is totally outside of any influences of the majority of belligerants here.

Personal opinion of historical , current ,or outcome eventualities need remain opinion rather than edicts. God gifts of the mind are irrelevant.

Many opinions also can be validated as having a factual bases.

The military pose as a lawfully moral government raising questions when their power is by gun over a populace.?

Ethically , it is wrong for said government who maintain this power to enforce political silence , no protests , and opposition to their viewpoint .

And many of their edicts sound double speak.

Elections were promised but not delivered ...etc etc.

These views are widely held in international norms

The opinions of where such behaviours may lead is relevant in context if he writer is addressing a mechanism of that government within a topic that displays precisely that point.

Eg restrictions.

Sure opinions remain so for the future.

However the past and the present can have very much absolutes that fall under historical truths.

Most glaring being their right to impose their will over a population without mandate

Edited June 18, 2016 by Plutojames88

[Plutojames88]

[quote name="heybruce"

Of course you want to focus on these easy to dismiss reasons. My reasons for foreign observers are:

1. The junta came to power by toppling an elected government, showing contempt for election results.

2. The junta has censored press and speech, making a free election and monitoring of the election by the press impossible.

3. Many junta supporters insist that Thai elections always suffer from vote buying, voter intimidation, and other faults. Foreign observers will help alleviate these problems.

Can you explain why these are not valid reasons for foreign observers?

Regarding my stating that you lied, I stand by it. When have you ever supported an elected government in Thailand?

Regarding my stating you only associated with the dregs of Thai society, prove me wrong. Tell us about the fine and admirable Thai people in your life.

These are very valid points .

[smedly]

As usual the debate has devolved into personal insult rather than the real focus of the original issue. And the basis of that is that the outcome of current enactions is totally outside of any influences of the majority of belligerants here.

Personal opinion of historical , current ,or outcome eventualities need remain opinion rather than edicts. God gifts of the mind are irrelevant.

Many opinions also can be validated as having a factual bases.

The military pose as a lawfully moral government raising questions when their power is by gun over a populace.?

Ethically , it is wrong for said government who maintain this power to enforce political silence , no protests , and opposition to their viewpoint .

And many of their edicts sound double speak.

Elections were promised but not delivered ...etc etc.

These views are widely held in international norms

The opinions of where such behaviours may lead is relevant in context if he writer is addressing a mechanism of that government within a topic that displays precisely that point.

Eg restrictions.

Sure opinions remain so for the future.

However the past and the present can have very much absolutes that fall under historical truths.

Most glaring being their right to impose their will over a population without mandate

Unfortunately there are many guns in Thailand with people who are more than willing to use them.

Political change takes time especially in a country like this were so many things need fixing, elections are on their way if you think otherwise then that is your opinion.

There are many divisive people here with their own version of democracy and social order, the number one goal is being able to work the system and enrich themselves - money number one not democracy.

Historical truths are interesting, we could talk about that with most countries in the world and some of the recent histories (last 100 years) are less than savory, which parts of the US constitution didn't apply to black people ? various countries with periods of ethnic cleansing, Germany a fine example, and lets not forget Cambodia, Thailand maybe not so bad.

Edited June 19, 2016 by smedly

[Winniedapu]

As usual the debate has devolved into personal insult rather than the real focus of the original issue. And the basis of that is that the outcome of current enactions is totally outside of any influences of the majority of belligerants here.

Personal opinion of historical , current ,or outcome eventualities need remain opinion rather than edicts. God gifts of the mind are irrelevant.

Many opinions also can be validated as having a factual bases.

The military pose as a lawfully moral government raising questions when their power is by gun over a populace.?

Ethically , it is wrong for said government who maintain this power to enforce political silence , no protests , and opposition to their viewpoint .

And many of their edicts sound double speak.

Elections were promised but not delivered ...etc etc.

These views are widely held in international norms

The opinions of where such behaviours may lead is relevant in context if he writer is addressing a mechanism of that government within a topic that displays precisely that point.

Eg restrictions.

Sure opinions remain so for the future.

However the past and the present can have very much absolutes that fall under historical truths.

Most glaring being their right to impose their will over a population without mandate

Unfortunately there are many guns in Thailand with people who are more than willing to use them.

Political change takes time especially in a country like this were so many things need fixing, elections are on their way if you think otherwise then that is your opinion.

There are many divisive people here with their own version of democracy and social order, the number one goal is being able to work the system and enrich themselves - money number one not democracy.

Historical truths are interesting, we could talk about that with most countries in the world and some of the recent histories (last 100 years) are less than savory, which parts of the US constitution didn't apply to black people ? various countries with periods of ethnic cleansing, Germany a fine example, and lets not forget Cambodia, Thailand maybe not so bad.

I love it when this tripe gets trotted out:

"Political change takes time especially in a country like this were so many things need fixing,"

How much time should be allowed in addition to the hundreds of years which have elapsed since the world started moving to egalitarian systems? How many more hundreds of years of accepting people raping and pillaging the country would you like to give them?

"elections are on their way if you think otherwise then that is your opinion"

Elections are not on the way. If you think differently, then that is your opinion.

Opinions aside, the reality is there is no good reason to think this junta government has any intention of allowing free and fair voting under an egalitarian constitution, none at all.

The rest of the post is frankly silly and suggests delusion, I can't bring myself to address more than the most obvious flaws in reasoning, which I have done.

I have never understood any some people, in preference to just saying they have an obsession with thugs, like to say that everything they do is good and wonderful and sunshine and light and freedom and democracy and truth and........ imho, it's just aberrant behaviour.

Winnie

[Wilsonandson]

Just been surfing twitter and saw this:-

Wayne Hay

@wayne_hay

Senior Correspondent, Al Jazeera English

Bangkok

[smedly]

As usual the debate has devolved into personal insult rather than the real focus of the original issue. And the basis of that is that the outcome of current enactions is totally outside of any influences of the majority of belligerants here.

Personal opinion of historical , current ,or outcome eventualities need remain opinion rather than edicts. God gifts of the mind are irrelevant.

Many opinions also can be validated as having a factual bases.

The military pose as a lawfully moral government raising questions when their power is by gun over a populace.?

Ethically , it is wrong for said government who maintain this power to enforce political silence , no protests , and opposition to their viewpoint .

And many of their edicts sound double speak.

Elections were promised but not delivered ...etc etc.

These views are widely held in international norms

The opinions of where such behaviours may lead is relevant in context if he writer is addressing a mechanism of that government within a topic that displays precisely that point.

Eg restrictions.

Sure opinions remain so for the future.

However the past and the present can have very much absolutes that fall under historical truths.

Most glaring being their right to impose their will over a population without mandate

Unfortunately there are many guns in Thailand with people who are more than willing to use them.

Political change takes time especially in a country like this were so many things need fixing, elections are on their way if you think otherwise then that is your opinion.

There are many divisive people here with their own version of democracy and social order, the number one goal is being able to work the system and enrich themselves - money number one not democracy.

Historical truths are interesting, we could talk about that with most countries in the world and some of the recent histories (last 100 years) are less than savory, which parts of the US constitution didn't apply to black people ? various countries with periods of ethnic cleansing, Germany a fine example, and lets not forget Cambodia, Thailand maybe not so bad.

I love it when this tripe gets trotted out:

"Political change takes time especially in a country like this were so many things need fixing,"

How much time should be allowed in addition to the hundreds of years which have elapsed since the world started moving to egalitarian systems? How many more hundreds of years of accepting people raping and pillaging the country would you like to give them?

"elections are on their way if you think otherwise then that is your opinion"

Elections are not on the way. If you think differently, then that is your opinion.

Opinions aside, the reality is there is no good reason to think this junta government has any intention of allowing free and fair voting under an egalitarian constitution, none at all.

The rest of the post is frankly silly and suggests delusion, I can't bring myself to address more than the most obvious flaws in reasoning, which I have done.

I have never understood any some people, in preference to just saying they have an obsession with thugs, like to say that everything they do is good and wonderful and sunshine and light and freedom and democracy and truth and........ imho, it's just aberrant behaviour.

Winnie

and you are the master

Of tripe

absolutely clueless

I normally don't respond to personal attacks but you started it

degrading a discussion to personal attacks is all you "are" good at, it is a small minded response from someone very obviously lacking in intellect, go and blow it out somewhere else