No security on new debit cards

[The manic]

My bank recently cancelled my cash card and replaced it with a debit card. However, the first time I used it I was not asked for any kind of security and the transaction was completed without even entering my pin code.  The krungsri bank assured me no transaction could be done without the pin code but this is not true.  Any thoughts?

[Fookhaht]

Excuse my ignorance, but what is the difference between a cash card and a debit card?


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[Lannig]

As far as I know, when you make a purchase using a debit card, the amount is immediately taken from your bank account (hence they are sometimes called "online" debit cards)

With a credit card, depending on the country and the bank, the cumulated amount of all purchases made with that card is withdrawn from your account every month or you have to pay this amount by yourself to the credit card company by the due date.

[DILLIGAD]

What transaction did you undertake without the entering of a PIN number?


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[Fookhaht]

As far as I know, when you make a purchase using a debit card, the amount is immediately taken from your bank account (hence they are sometimes called "online" debit cards)
With a credit card, depending on the country and the bank, the cumulated amount of all purchases made with that card is withdrawn from your account every month or you have to pay this amount by yourself to the credit card company by the due date.

The poster does not mention a credit card.


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[Oxx]

There's a new-ish system, where you sign your signature on the screen of an electronic box.  If the transaction is less than a certain value (it's different for Visa and Mastercard) then no signature is required.

[Lannig]

5 hours ago, Fookhaht said:

The poster does not mention a credit card.
 

I was replying to the 2nd post... did you bother reading the whole topic before writing this?

[lopburi3]

You are not normally required to enter a PIN code to use a normal debit card here - you just sign the receipt.  The new Bangkok Bank Union Pay does require entry of a PIN code as well as signature but believe that is an exception.  

[The manic]

15 hours ago, DILLIGAD said:

What transaction did you undertake without the entering of a PIN number?


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I paid a hospital bill.  in the past I have paid up to 25000 baht using my UK cc without any security check but with cash you can argue about a false claim.  With Debit cards you cannot as the money has gone from. your account.  To reiterate:the introduction of debit cards in thailand has not been supported by stringent security measures such as a demand for a pin number

[The manic]

52 minutes ago, lopburi3 said:

You are not normally required to enter a PIN code to use a normal debit card here - you just sign the receipt.  The new Bangkok Bank Union Pay does require entry of a PIN code as well as signature but believe that is an exception.  

The whole point of pin numbers is to use them.  A signature can be copied as it is on the back of the card.   Therefore if I mislaid my card and somebody found it they could clear my whole account out.  That equals a complete lack of security. 

[The manic]

6 hours ago, Oxx said:

There's a new-ish system, where you sign your signature on the screen of an electronic box.  If the transaction is less than a certain value (it's different for Visa and Mastercard) then no signature is required.

This has no relevance to the topic I started. 

[The manic]

15 hours ago, Lannig said:

As far as I know, when you make a purchase using a debit card, the amount is immediately taken from your bank account (hence they are sometimes called "online" debit cards)

With a credit card, depending on the country and the bank, the cumulated amount of all purchases made with that card is withdrawn from your account every month or you have to pay this amount by yourself to the credit card company by the due date.

Thanks for explaining to me that which I have known for forty years.  But in the past 40 years when I have used a debit card I have been required to supply a a secret pin number.  A debit card that can be used with a pin is a severe risk. 

[lopburi3]

28 minutes ago, The manic said:

The whole point of pin numbers is to use them.  A signature can be copied as it is on the back of the card.   Therefore if I mislaid my card and somebody found it they could clear my whole account out.  That equals a complete lack of security. 

It would appears to be you not keeping your card secure.  Most of the world's debit cards have not required use of PIN except at an ATM machine.  Just like a credit card it is based on your signing a voucher for payment.  If you do not sign such a voucher you are not liable for payment and after investigation funds should be replaced.  

[RBOP]

6 minutes ago, lopburi3 said:

It would appears to be you not keeping your card secure.  Most of the world's debit cards have not required use of PIN except at an ATM machine.  Just like a credit card it is based on your signing a voucher for payment.  If you do not sign such a voucher you are not liable for payment and after investigation funds should be replaced.  

We hope. 

[Oxx]

40 minutes ago, The manic said:

This has no relevance to the topic I started. 

 

My, you are an ungrateful little wretch, aren't you.

 

You wrote "the first time I used it I was not asked for any kind of security" and I explained one circumstance under which this might happen.  If you can't see the relevance, then you're also lacking in insight.

[Lannig]

You know what, The Manic and Fookhaht? I misread the topic, I just just trying to be helpful, admittedly off-topic this time. And this was welcomed with the usual TVF's friendliness. Sometimes I wonder why I still bother.

[KhunBENQ]

1 hour ago, The manic said:

This has no relevance to the topic I started. 

How can one know if you still do not describe what your "use" was?

Where, what amount?

Card handed over? Inserted to a reader?

You also give no details about the card?

Is it a Krungsri Visa card with chip?

 

What member oxx describes is probably  the so called VisaPayWave, a wireless technology where just holding the card near some terminal will initiate the payment.

Up to so limited amount no other security needed.

25 Euro or so in Germany.

I got such a thing from a German bank recently.

As I don't use it here for payment it is locked away and will never make the way to my wallet.

This is by far an invention of a specific bank.

 

If helpful attempts from other members are continued to be answered in such impolite way the thread will be closed.

This is not your banks hotline.

 

[scorecard]

1 hour ago, The manic said:

Thanks for explaining to me that which I have known for forty years.  But in the past 40 years when I have used a debit card I have been required to supply a a secret pin number.  A debit card that can be used with a pin is a severe risk. 

-

Edited February 10, 2017 by scorecard

[heybuz]

my debit siam commercial has a 6 digit pin and won't work without it

[topt]

1 hour ago, KhunBENQ said:

How can one know if you still do not describe what your "use" was?

Where, what amount?

Card handed over? Inserted to a reader?

You also give no details about the card?

Is it a Krungsri Visa card with chip?

 

What member oxx describes is probably  the so called VisaPayWave, a wireless technology where just holding the card near some terminal will initiate the payment.

Up to so limited amount no other security needed.

25 Euro or so in Germany.

I got such a thing from a German bank recently.

As I don't use it here for payment it is locked away and will never make the way to my wallet.

This is by far an invention of a specific bank.

 

If helpful attempts from other members are continued to be answered in such impolite way the thread will be closed.

This is not your banks hotline.

 

Re Oxx comments are you referring to what are called "contactless payment cards"?

These have been available for a number of different cards in the UK for more than a few years. The latest debit card from my bank received in the last couple of months has this feature and a previous cc I had also contained. The limit in the UK is £30 but with some you have to put the pin in for your very first transaction. 

See here for example https://www.lloydsbank.com/current-accounts/debit-card/contactless.asp#tab-row-2

So not an invention of a specific bank

 

Interesting general article on contactless cards here including security issues - https://www.nytimes.com/2016/10/31/technology/how-to-protect-yourself-when-using-a-contactless-card.html?_r=0

Edited February 10, 2017 by topt
Added link

[jamie2009]

I have. used my UK Credit and Debit Card in Big C, Tesco etc, I bought an IPad in the Apple Store and have never been asked for a Pin Number not even ID.

[ThaiWai]

1 hour ago, Lannig said:

You know what, The Manic and Fookhaht? I misread the topic, I just just trying to be helpful, admittedly off-topic this time. And this was welcomed with the usual TVF's friendliness. Sometimes I wonder why I still bother.

Actually you misread several posts 

 

8 hours ago, Fookhaht said:

The poster does not mention a credit card.
 

"I was replying to the 2nd post... did you bother reading the whole topic before writing this?"

 

And when you got called on it you got snarky. Don't try to act like an innocent victim now. 

[Oxx]

35 minutes ago, topt said:

Re Oxx comments are you referring to what are called "contactless payment cards"?

 

I don't think so.  When I go to TOPS supermarket my Krungsri VISA debit card is swiped.  If the amount is less than (I think) 700 baht, that completes the transaction.  If it's more, I have to sign on the screen of a small box on the counter.  Different from what you're describing which  I think in Thailand is called "PayWave" or something similar.

[masuk]

18 hours ago, Lannig said:

As far as I know, when you make a purchase using a debit card, the amount is immediately taken from your bank account (hence they are sometimes called "online" debit cards)

With a credit card, depending on the country and the bank, the cumulated amount of all purchases made with that card is withdrawn from your account every month or you have to pay this amount by yourself to the credit card company by the due date.

I was advised that to be a farang with a credit card, I'd need to deposit a largish amount into a fixed deposit account of some sort.

 

No one has EVER checked my signature against that on my normal DEBIT card.

[abab]

Funny ! I have never seen a shop asking to enter your pin in Thailand...

[abab]

3 hours ago, The manic said:

Thanks for explaining to me that which I have known for forty years.  But in the past 40 years when I have used a debit card I have been required to supply a a secret pin number.  A debit card that can be used with a pin is a severe risk. 

 

 

Yes you know everything but keep asking very smart questions...

 

 

[Suradit69]

1 hour ago, jamie2009 said:

I have. used my UK Credit and Debit Card in Big C, Tesco etc, I bought an IPad in the Apple Store and have never been asked for a Pin Number not even ID.

I've occasionally used US issue cards at Bangkok Hospital Pattaya, Big C Extra, Friendship, Fascino and Index, all without the need for a pin.

[Pib]

The OP's transaction was processed in "Chip and Signature mode" vs Chip and PIN mode.  Quite common for purchases to be processed as Chip & Signature in Thailand, the U.S., and many countries around the world for cards with or without chips.  Now folks from Europe are probably more use to Chip & PIN purchases simply because Europe prefers PIN entry.

 

The OP's card does have Chip & PIN mode (plus several other modes I will not go into) but that Chip & PIN mode will only be used if the merchant prefers that mode;  however, many merchants prefer the Chip & Signature mode as they consider the security adequate, the transaction goes faster, people don't have to remember their PIN and the merchant "really" want to make a sale even for those folks who can't seem to remember their PIN.  

 

When a person's card (debit or credit) is put in the Point of Service (POS) machine at checkout one of the first things that happen is for the POS and card to come to agreement on what "mode" is preferred/allowed.     Both must agree on the mode to be used.  The merchant POS is probably setup to prefer or only allow Chip & Signature mode....as long as a person card is coded to allow that mode the transaction will continue as Chip & Signature.   If the person's card is setup to only allow Chip & PIN but the merchant's POS is setup not to accept that mode, then the transaction can not continue.  

 

The merchant/checkout clerk will probably/may say something is wrong with the card when in fact the POS is displaying "PIN Reqd" but the checkout staff have been told by management not to process PIN Reqd transactions.  It depends on the merchant...how bad they want to make the sale.

 

As most folks have seen while checking out from a Thai store like Lotus,  Big C, many others, the POS machine where a PIN entry would have to be made is out of reach of the customer....usually behind the counter very close to the cash register machine.   That is because the merchant does not want to do PIN entry transactions, be it a chipped or older style non-chip card.

 

And as one poster already mentioned more checkouts are being setup to not even require a signature (nor PIN) for low amounts....like for Visa card it must exceed Bt700....for Mastercard the amount must exceed Bt1000.   Not talking contactless payment here....I'm talking amounts for any type of card.    When the amount is below these amounts no PIN entery, Signature on a paper receipt, or Signature on a electronic screen is required.   The POS just immedately processes the transaction prints out the final receipt.  I frequent several grocery stores in Bangkok like that, such as Tops in Central Pinklao

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Jonmarleesco]

I assume you're referring to a debit card transaction, not an ATM one? In which case, the chip-and-pin technology you're no doubt thinking of is not yet in wide usage in LoS. And KKB cards don't yet support it.

[jacko45k]

15 hours ago, The manic said:

The whole point of pin numbers is to use them.  A signature can be copied as it is on the back of the card.   Therefore if I mislaid my card and somebody found it they could clear my whole account out.  That equals a complete lack of security. 

Then set a limit and SMS alerts as soon as you can.

Problem is at the till too, whereby a card in the name of John Smith, can also be used by someone whose real name is Abdul.