Scotland's Sturgeon says: I can win an independence vote

[RuamRudy]

15 minutes ago, nontabury said:

 

  Well Many Scots are very unhappy with this SNP government. 

  Yes, Ruam Ruby another poster received this very morning from a Scot living under the SNP in Scotland. Not in some distant country.

 

 

What is this to tell us? That many Scots are bad a photoshop? Again, nonsense posts from your imaginary friends who have nothing tangible to offer, no substance, no insight, no attempt to offer evidence - no wonder they are yoons, they have nothing but bland, baseless headlines to offer! Probably brexiters too!

[webfact]

UPDATE:

 

Scottish Parliament backs referendum call

 

EDINBURGH: -- Nicola Sturgeon's call for a second referendum on independence for Scotland has been formally backed by the Scottish Parliament.

 

Full story:  http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/975904-scottish-parliament-backs-independence-referendum-call/

[RuamRudy]

57 minutes ago, SheungWan said:

 

Yes, Scottish football hooliganism was a disgrace, but I am not sure that we should go down the route of thumbing our noses at each other's home fans because my money is on one of the home nations looking considerably worse than the others in that respect..

Edited March 29, 2017 by RuamRudy

[evadgib]

21 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

Ah - so nothing to back up your position so try to claim you were trolling? Less Project Fear, more Project Feeble...

If backup is necessary it'll be found on any soundtrack as described. 

 

Checkout the difference between trolling and banter. 

 

The fact that you were active when I retired last night and were still tapping away this morning when I signed in was a reminder of your self-appointed role as goalkeeper-in-chief for the SNP but I nonetheless credited you with a sense of humour and acknowledge many of the points you have raised regardless of whether or not I agree.

 

Project feeble? I don't do project fear & frankly expected a little more originality. Checkout some the posts by the wee low flier for tips on how its done.

 

Keep an eye out for the fly...

[citybiker]

What a ridiculous headline - of course the campaign will end, in about 2 years when we make the correct decision.
 
And again the Yoon refrain is that the SNP is not running the country properly, but you offer nothing objective to back that up - simply  more very thin, watery mud being hurled.

So only focusing on the headline, the SNP fairy tale denial & ignorance is obviously clouding many that know the SE promises are worse than mud.

Quicksand, SNP......simply no planning.


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[RuamRudy]

39 minutes ago, citybiker said:

 

 

So only focusing on the headline, the SNP fairy tale denial & ignorance is obviously clouding many that know the SE promises are worse than mud.

Quicksand, SNP......simply no planning.


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I read the article but there was only a series of Tories voicing their outrage, nothing of substance whatsoever, as pretty much all the Yoon debate is.

[evadgib]

'Simply Nae Planning'?

 

I like that! 

[RuamRudy]

1 minute ago, evadgib said:

'Simply Nae Planning'?

 

I like that! 

Are you referring to the SNP (who submitted a proposal for a workable solution to the Brexit problem that satisfies both Scotland and the rest of the UK) or the Westminster government who are hell bent on driving Brexit to its conclusion without one iota of an understanding, previously or now, as to what that conclusion will be?

 

No planning? No understanding from Westminster - on any front.

[vogie]

2 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

Are you referring to the SNP (who submitted a proposal for a workable solution to the Brexit problem that satisfies both Scotland and the rest of the UK) or the Westminster government who are hell bent on driving Brexit to its conclusion without one iota of an understanding, previously or now, as to what that conclusion will be?

 

No planning? No understanding from Westminster - on any front.

There is no Brexit problem, the starting pistol will be fired today. Why should Scotland be a special case? And if we are hearing you correctly you want to leave the union and have Brussels dictating your government and laws, where is the indipendence there. As Reese Mogg said on question time the SNP would have to be known as the Brussels Nats Party.

[evadgib]

Why not suggest to your masters that they include the rest of the Kingdom next time? That'll guarantee success 

Edited March 29, 2017 by evadgib

[RuamRudy]

1 minute ago, vogie said:

There is no Brexit problem, the starting pistol will be fired today. Why should Scotland be a special case? And if we are hearing you correctly you want to leave the union and have Brussels dictating your government and laws, where is the indipendence there. As Reese Mogg said on question time the SNP would have to be known as the Brussels Nats Party.

Here we go again... Did David Cameron ask Brussels for permission to hold a referendum to leave the EU? The freedom that the UK has within the EU is far greater than Scotland has within our so called union of equals.

[RuamRudy]

2 minutes ago, evadgib said:

Why not suggest to your masters that they include the rest of the Kingdom next time? That'll guarantee success 

My masters? You suggested earlier that I was the self-appointed goal keeper of the SNP, and now they are my masters?

 

For the record, I am not a member of the SNP. I joined in the mid 90s but I let my membership lapse for reasons that I can no longer recall. Not all those who support independence are card carrying members, and not all would vote for them after independence, assuming, that is, that they remain a cohesive organisation once their fundmental objective had been achieved.

[evadgib]

...anyone seen my car keys?

[transam]

3 minutes ago, evadgib said:

...anyone seen my car keys?

Sorry no, I was out mowing the lawn......

[sandyf]

5 hours ago, webfact said:

UPDATE:

 

Scottish Parliament backs referendum call

 

EDINBURGH: -- Nicola Sturgeon's call for a second referendum on independence for Scotland has been formally backed by the Scottish Parliament.

 

Full story:  http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/975904-scottish-parliament-backs-independence-referendum-call/

The terminology is misleading. It would not be a second independence referendum per se. It would be the first referendum on whether it would be in Scotlands interests to leave one badly managed union and try and join another nearly as badly managed union.

Of course it all depends on whether the badly managed union will offer its prisoner a pardon or make it serve the full sentence.

[dabhand]

On ‎28‎/‎03‎/‎2017 at 7:26 AM, RuamRudy said:

32% & 36% in favour of independence in 2014, although that was before the lies and underhand tactics of their LibDem MP was revealed in the Court of Session. It would be interesting to see how they feel now, aware as they are, of the lies told by the Better Together campaign. One way might be to consider the results of the 2015 general election - the SNP share of the vote grew by over 27%, hardly a sign of hardening unionism:

 

Party		Candidate	Votes	%	±
	Liberal Democrats	Alistair Carmichael[8]	9,407	41.4	−20.6
	SNP	Danus Skene	8,590	37.8	+27.2
	Conservative	Donald Cameron[9]	2,025	8.9	−1.6
	Labour	Gerry McGarvey	1,624	7.1	−3.5
	UKIP	Robert Smith[10]	1,082	4.8	−1.6

 

 

Another way might be to consider the results of the 2016 SP election. A bit more recent than your data and, incidentally, after the resolution of the CoS action concerning the LibDem MP, so no need to wonder how they feel now. The vote is in.

 

What did these show? Well, in both Orkney and Shetland the LibDems were at 67% of the votes cast, with increases of 31% in Orkney and 20% in Shetland over the 2011 SP election. Possibly a sign of hardening unionism?

 

Strange how the more recent SP elections were not mentioned in your post. Then again, maybe not.

 

 

[RuamRudy]

15 minutes ago, dabhand said:

Another way might be to consider the results of the 2016 SP election. A bit more recent than your data and, incidentally, after the resolution of the CoS action concerning the LibDem MP, so no need to wonder how they feel now. The vote is in.

 

What did these show? Well, in both Orkney and Shetland the LibDems were at 67% of the votes cast, with increases of 31% in Orkney and 20% in Shetland over the 2011 SP election. Possibly a sign of hardening unionism?

 

Strange how the more recent SP elections were not mentioned in your post. Then again, maybe not.

 

 

Do the voters send different messages to Westminster and Holyrood? I suspect they do and it suits my own aspirations, but possibly you want to believe the UK is sacrosanct, and the residents of the Orkneys and Shetlands feel similar. Why would they not show any interest in the Tories, I wonder, and are they really so capricious that they would through a tantrum in 2015, only to come to their Yoon senses in 2016?

[evadgib]

Popcorn- check

Telly on- check

Chair reclined- check

 

I'm ready for the PMs Brrrexit delivery to the house immediately after PMQs 

[7by7]

5 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

Did David Cameron ask Brussels for permission to hold a referendum to leave the EU? The freedom that the UK has within the EU is far greater than Scotland has within our so called union of equals.

 

The UK is a sovereign state; the EU is an organisation of sovereign states.

 

None of the countries which make up the UK are sovereign states; it is the UK, and therefore the UK Parliament, which is sovereign.

 

Article 50 allows an EU member state to leave the EU. If and how a member state reaches the decision to do so is up to the member state concerned.

 

There is no such provision in the Act of Union nor any other UK legislation. 

 

You are comparing apples and oranges.

 

Of course, Sturgeon could hold her referendum any time she chooses; but without the authorisation of the UK Parliament the result would not be legally binding; it would instead just be a glorified and expensive opinion poll.

 

 

 

[Mosha]

There was a time Scottish Nationalists complained about being dragged into Europe. A shame de Gaulle wasn't immortal.

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[sandyf]

18 hours ago, 7by7 said:

Of course, Sturgeon could hold her referendum any time she chooses; but without the authorisation of the UK Parliament the result would not be legally binding; it would instead just be a glorified and expensive opinion poll.

 

Only if it went against her. A result in her favour would almost certainly lead to a judicial review over the question of authorisation and taking it to the extreme a strong vote in favour could result in a Declaration of Independence. Wouldn't be the first one the UK has had to deal with.

[evadgib]

Polling the entire Kingdom would RTU them so far they'd wake up in Panama 

[evadgib]

https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/david-davis-commons-statement-on-the-great-repeal-bill-white-paper

[7by7]

9 hours ago, sandyf said:

Only if it went against her. A result in her favour would almost certainly lead to a judicial review over the question of authorisation and taking it to the extreme a strong vote in favour could result in a Declaration of Independence. Wouldn't be the first one the UK has had to deal with.

 I'm not convinced that a judicial review would be appropriate, or if it were it would find in Sturgeon's favour.

 

Remember; a judicial review wont decide if the decision of a public body, including Parliament, was right or wrong, only if that decision was made in a lawful way or not.

 

Under the Scotland Ac 1998, as amended by the Scotland Act 2016, all the powers of the Scottish parliament are devolved from Westminster and, in theory at least, Westminster could take those powers back at any time.

 

Not that I envisage such an event; the result would be politically disastrous for any Westminster government which attempted such a thing!

 

But that's irrelevant anyway. Scottish independence is a constitutional matter, and so comes under the remit of Westminster, not Holyrood. Remember that to enable the 2014 referendum to be controlled by Holyrood and for Westminster to accept the result a s.30 order had to be made in order to transfer the necessary power from Westminster to Holyrood. Without such an order, Holyrood has no power in this area and any referendum result would only be advisory at best.

 

This is interesting: Stephen Tierney: A Second Independence Referendum in Scotland: The Legal Issues

(Stephen Tierney is Professor of Constitutional Theory and Director of the Edinburgh Centre for Constitutional Law at the University of Edinburgh.)

 

A Unilateral Declaration of Independence? Always possible, of course. But a sensible or even the right course of action?

 

From the pro independence Autonomy Scotland: The idea of Scottish MPs unilaterally declaring independence is bonkers. Although, to be fair, the author does say that such an idea would not be undemocratic if the vast majority of Scottish people wanted independence; indicated by a large percentage of the electorate, not just those voting, in a second referendum voting for independence.

 

Then there is the question of who would recognise Scotland if they did declare UDI. It's almost certain the EU wouldn't as member countries with regions of their own seeking to break away, e.g. Spain, would veto it.

 

Difficult to join an organisation that doesn't recognise your existence!

 

Edited March 30, 2017 by 7by7

[sd44]

One of the threats /bribes /inducements of the Bitter Together campaign was that the only way Scotland could remain in the EU was to remain in the UK.

Many of us saw that you be as much nonsense as the other London lies, but sadly many fell for it, a bit like the government backed lie of EU money being diverted to the NHS - a despicably cynical attempt to pervert the democratic process.

A referendum won on a basket of lies is nothing more than a travesty of democracy.

But Scotlands voters knew an EU referendum was coming up after the indy one.

[7by7]

2 hours ago, sd44 said:

But Scotlands voters knew an EU referendum was coming up after the indy one.

To be fair; they didn't.

 

The Scottish independence referendum was in 2014; the promise to hold a referendum on the UK's membership of the EU was made in the Conservative manifesto for the 2015 general election.

[nontabury]

3 hours ago, 7by7 said:

To be fair; they didn't.

 

The Scottish independence referendum was in 2014; the promise to hold a referendum on the UK's membership of the EU was made in the Conservative manifesto for the 2015 general election.

I seem to recall the Conservatives giveing a promise or a pledge to hold a referendum before 2015. In fact one year  D.C promised a cast iron guarantee to hold a referendum. Admittedly not in this interview,but he certainly did in another.

 

 

Edited March 31, 2017 by nontabury

[sandyf]

9 hours ago, 7by7 said:

 I'm not convinced that a judicial review would be appropriate, or if it were it would find in Sturgeon's favour.

 

Fortunately opinions do not count for much, she is free to proceed as she sees fit.

[sandyf]

18 minutes ago, nontabury said:

I seem to recall the Conservatives giveing a promise or a pledge to hold a referendum before 2015.

Many seem to ignore the fact that many voted against Alex Salmond, nothing to do with the UK or the EU. Remember that less than 52% will get you an overwhelming mandate.

[rockingrobin]

33 minutes ago, nontabury said:

I seem to recall the Conservatives giveing a promise or a pledge to hold a referendum before 2015. In fact one year  D.C promised a cast iron guarantee to hold a referendum. Admittedly not in this interview,but he certainly did in another.

 

 

Statements and commitments are meaningless until they come to fruition,

A bill to hold a eu referendum was defeated in 2012

January 2013 D Cameron promised the referendum

Edited March 31, 2017 by rockingrobin