Renewal of UK Driving Licence (heads up)

[Keesters]

On 5/20/2017 at 6:44 AM, simoh1490 said:

Yes I do understand that workaround, but UK DVLC rules (technically) say that if you leave the UK to live in another country you must surrender your UK license and get one from your country of residence, the fact that most of us don't and that some of you use a UK accommodation address doesn't make it legal.

 

FWIW I used to be really precious about my UK license but after 15 years I've come to realise that my Thai license is far more useful, it makes renting a car in the UK much much easier since there are no DVLC checks and every car rental agency accepts it without question. It also means I can buy an annual car insurance excess policy which costs about 35 Pounds and means I don't have to buy rental agency insurance products and that saves a lot of money.

You are correct. The other guy isn't. Impossible to get a UK license sent directly overseas. This came about because of EU rules that you must be a resident to have a license. Not just an address but be a resident, i.e. spent the majority of your time there. Same goes for UK international licenses issued by AA. Used to have them sent to me all over the world. Can't do that now.

 

I tried having a license sent to my cousin in Sussex. He never got it. I never got my fee back.

 

[Steiner]

On 5/20/2017 at 6:29 AM, simoh1490 said:

The governement gateway option to renew a UK license has been around for years, I used it to renew my UK license over six years ago whilst living in Thailand (which is illegal by the way but hey).

Isn't your UK license null and void if you've lived outside the UK for 3rys?

Once they sync all of the passport entry/exits etc to driving licenses, those options will be lost to many. 

[MW72]

19 hours ago, dabhand said:

Not sure about online application, but you can apply for a UK IDP by post via the AA. I have used this method in the past as I needed it when driving in Egypt up to about 2012. Not applied since then. There may be online options with other organisations.

 

https://www.theaa.com/driving-advice/driving-abroad/apply-for-an-idp-by-post

 

Thanks for the advice.

 

I did a bit of researching and surprisingly the AA only accept cheques or postal orders in this day and age. I've not had a cheque book for years!. The RAC provide the same service and accept credit or debit cards and are 50p cheaper! The AA will post your IDP oversees for an additional charge which is handy. The RAC do not mention overseas delivery. Surprisingly enough the post office are the only people who do not offer a postal service for an IDP

[MW72]

21 minutes ago, Steiner said:

Isn't your UK license null and void if you've lived outside the UK for 3rys?

Once they sync all of the passport entry/exits etc to driving licenses, those options will be lost to many. 

I'm not sure it is as black & white as that. I've been overseas for 12 years and not had any issues but I've never had to renew my license. Had a couple of IDPs in this time. I know guys who have been oversees since the Falklands war kicked off and had no issues with their license. Perhaps the fact that they have property in the UK as well as employment with a UK company and a UK bank account helps.

[topt]

3 hours ago, simoh1490 said:

Well, I've searched and I can't find where I've read that non-resident expat's should surrender their UK drivers license  after moving abroad, there are however a number of other expat forums out there that discuss this very issue and some claim the license should be surrendered

As I and someone else posted on page 1 of this thread - too much credence given to anonymous unofficial online sources perhaps.......

 

3 hours ago, simoh1490 said:

What is clear though is that the rules state the license cannot be used legally if you now reside in another country

Where do the rules actually state this - because I cannot see anything other than contact the country's DVLA that you are in if abroad. If you do not need to change your address for any reason then technically it does not appear that you are breaking any rules?

Also your point above contradicts your last paragraph

[Andrew Dwyer]

I'm not sure it is as black & white as that. I've been overseas for 12 years and not had any issues but I've never had to renew my license. Had a couple of IDPs in this time. I know guys who have been oversees since the Falklands war kicked off and had no issues with their license. Perhaps the fact that they have property in the UK as well as employment with a UK company and a UK bank account helps.

It's certainly a grey area.

I lived and worked o/seas for 20 years for a UK company, had no property in the uk ( used my fathers as mailing address ), but maintained a uk bank account and uk driving license even though I claimed my tax back every year as non resident.

Now I'm retired and " living " in LOS I'm hoping to maintain banking and DL, just gotta be a bit careful [emoji15].

[Eff1n2ret]

I bet there isn't a single contributor to this thread asserting what the "rules" are who has ever read the relevant Road Traffic Acts or the Statutory Regulations issued under them. When there was a similar thread to this some time ago I did start looking at them, but I can't be bothered to do it again.

Without looking at the actual law, we are left with following the meagre information and instructions supplied by the DVLA. This page:-

 

https://www.gov.uk/dvla-change-address

 

says that you must report changes of address, and it's a £1000 fine if you don't. This includes 'temporary' moves, so arguing that you don't have 'permanent' residence in Thailand won't wash. If you follow the 'Update the address' link it's quite clearly stated that you must be a resident of Great Britain (what happens in Northern Ireland I've no idea).

 

The only reference on the website to 'Surrendering your licence' concerns medical unfitness. I've never seen anything suggesting a requirement to do so, time-limited or not, if you move abroad.

 

So those of us expats (I suspect most of us) who hang on to our UK licences as long as we can are in the slightly anomalous position that we risk a fine if we don't tell the DVLA that we've moved abroad, but not telling them doesn't in itself  invalidate the licence.

Edited May 21, 2017 by Eff1n2ret

[simoh1490]

13 minutes ago, topt said:

As I and someone else posted on page 1 of this thread - too much credence given to anonymous unofficial online sources perhaps.......

 

Where do the rules actually state this - because I cannot see anything other than contact the country's DVLA that you are in if abroad. If you do not need to change your address for any reason then technically it does not appear that you are breaking any rules?

Also your point above contradicts your last paragraph

In the link provided much earlier, this one: https://www.gov.uk/change-address-driving-licenc. it says, "You can be fined up to £1,000 if you don’t tell DVLA when your address changes". It then goes on to say,  you need to be " to be a resident of Great Britain". It also says, you have " to give the addresses you’ve lived at in the last 3 years", and, if you live abroad " You can’t register your new address on your British driving licence".

 

So, if you live abroad and you keep your UK license and return to the UK from time to time and use it whilst there, you contravene the rules as described above - either you haven't told DVLC of your new address and/or you can't register that new address..

 

As for anonymous information blah blah: I'm not in the habit of posting anonymous unsupportable statement, I have seen the rule I described earlier on a governement web site, as it seems so have others, where that web site statement is remains unclear at this point.

 

Last Para: yup, you're right it's illegal to do that hence the UK license must be surrendered when you become an expat, was that your point!

Edited May 21, 2017 by simoh1490

[simoh1490]

12 minutes ago, Eff1n2ret said:

I bet there isn't a single contributor to this thread asserting what the "rules" are who has ever read the relevant Road Traffic Acts or the Statutory Regulations issued under them. When there was a similar thread to this some time ago I did start looking at them, but I can't be bothered to do it again.

Without looking at the actual law, we are left with following the meagre information and instructions supplied by the DVLA. This page:-

 

https://www.gov.uk/dvla-change-address

 

says that you must report changes of address, and it's a £1000 fine if you don't. This includes 'temporary' moves, so arguing that you don't have 'permanent' residence in Thailand won't wash. If you follow the 'Update the address' link it's quite clearly stated that you must be a resident of Great Britain (what happens in Northern Ireland I've no idea).

 

The only reference on the website to 'Surrendering your licence' concerns medical unfitness. I've never seen anything suggesting a requirement to do so, time-limited or not, if you move abroad.

 

So those of us expats (I suspect most of us) who hang on to our UK licences as long as we can are in the slightly anomalous position that we risk a fine if we don't tell the DVLA that we've moved abroad, but not telling them doesn't in itself  invalidate the licence.

It seems to me we have been through this subject on TVF several times over the years and maybe that is part of the problem, information and statements that once existed on DVLC and UK Gov. web sites isn't there any longer or has been moved. Because I for one did go through the rules about four years ago when we had this debate and I'm certain that what I wrote above is what was written in "the rules" at the time.

[lungnorm]

3 hours ago, simoh1490 said:

Well, I've searched and I can't find where I've read that non-resident expat's should surrender their UK drivers license  after moving abroad, there are however a number of other expat forums out there that discuss this very issue and some claim the license should be surrendered - I'm sure we all got that information from the same place but I can't see where.

 

What is clear though is that the rules state the license cannot be used legally if you now reside in another country, neither can an overseas address be registered on it (and of course, using a false address is also not allowed). And indeed the license itself can't be renewed (legally) if you live overseas, which makes it all but useless, unless you intend to resettle in the UK once again before the expiry date of the license, in which case changing the address to your new one and pretending you've never left would probably work, under the rules.

 

On related aspects: as a returning expat you would be allowed to use your Thai 5 year license in the UK before having to convert to a UK license. Also, if driving in the UK and in possession of a UK license and a foreign license, the UK license takes precedence, regardless of what you might claim, as long as it remains a valid license.

I see you have created a fine old mess with your incorrect post. Tried to tell you but you either thought you knew it all or you were half way thru demolishing a Chang pile. 

[jacko45k]

On 20/05/2017 at 10:18 AM, possum1931 said:

It doesn't mater what's illegal and what's not, if it suits you and you can get away with it then good, just as long as no ordinary person is inconvenienced.

Until you are involved in an accident and the insurance company refuses to cover your 3rd party liability, because you were driving on a licence you are not entitled to use.  All about 'what ifs' I suppose.

[rockingrobin]

42 minutes ago, topt said:

As I and someone else posted on page 1 of this thread - too much credence given to anonymous unofficial online sources perhaps.......

 

Where do the rules actually state this - because I cannot see anything other than contact the country's DVLA that you are in if abroad. If you do not need to change your address for any reason then technically it does not appear that you are breaking any rules?

Also your point above contradicts your last paragraph

Road Traffic Act

 

 

[simoh1490]

2 hours ago, rockingrobin said:

Road Traffic Act

 

 

In which, para 99 sub 4 states:

 

4) Where the name or address of the licence holder as specified in a licence ceases to be correct, its holder must forthwith surrender the licence to the Secretary of State and provide him with particulars of the alterations falling to be made in the name or address and, in the case of a provisional licence as respects which the prescribed conditions are satisfied, with a statement of his sex and date of birth.

 

http://www.ukmotorists.com/vehicle licensing.asp

 

There, does that satisfy everyone now!

 

Edited May 21, 2017 by simoh1490

[simoh1490]

2 hours ago, lungnorm said:

I see you have created a fine old mess with your incorrect post. Tried to tell you but you either thought you knew it all or you were half way thru demolishing a Chang pile. 

And since you've been so helpful and such a delight in this thread, you get your very own personal copy of the link, to read, just so you don't forget - remember, Para 99, sub 4:

 

http://www.ukmotorists.com/vehicle licensing.asp

 

[NoshowJones]

2 hours ago, jacko45k said:

Until you are involved in an accident and the insurance company refuses to cover your 3rd party liability, because you were driving on a licence you are not entitled to use.  All about 'what ifs' I suppose.

Read my post again, I said "as long as no one is inconvenienced", if anyone drives without the proper licence and insurance, they deserve all they get.

[Moonlover]

32 minutes ago, simoh1490 said:

In which, para 9 sub 4 states:

 

4) Where the name or address of the licence holder as specified in a licence ceases to be correct, its holder must forthwith surrender the licence to the Secretary of State and provide him with particulars of the alterations falling to be made in the name or address and, in the case of a provisional licence as respects which the prescribed conditions are satisfied, with a statement of his sex and date of birth.

 

http://www.ukmotorists.com/vehicle licensing.asp

 

Does that satisfy everyone now!

 

A nice try, but wrong. You are using the beginning of the paragraph out of context.

 

Remove the bold type and the underscore and read the sentence in full and a different story emerges.

 

It is saying (in not very good English) ''If your name or address has changed, you must surrender your licence to have it it updated''.

 

This reference has been lifted, not from the Road Traffic Act itself, but from a web site that is using the information therein.

 

Here is the real Road Traffic Act reference concerning the surrendering of licences. Lifted from:

 

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/52/section/99

 

(32ZA)  ''Where it appears to the Secretary of State that a licence holder is not lawfully resident in the United Kingdom, the Secretary of State may serve notice in writing on that person revoking the licence and requiring the person to surrender the licence and its counterpart forthwith to the Secretary of State, and it is the duty of that person to comply with the requirement''.

 

(3ZB )For the purposes of subsection (3ZA) a person is not lawfully resident in the United Kingdom if the person requires leave to enter or remain in the United Kingdom but does not have it.]

 

And make sure you read the second paragraph carefully before leaping to your keyboards!

 

 

[topt]

48 minutes ago, simoh1490 said:

In which, para 99 sub 4 states:

 

4) Where the name or address of the licence holder as specified in a licence ceases to be correct, its holder must forthwith surrender the licence to the Secretary of State and provide him with particulars of the alterations falling to be made in the name or address and, in the case of a provisional licence as respects which the prescribed conditions are satisfied, with a statement of his sex and date of birth.

 

http://www.ukmotorists.com/vehicle licensing.asp

 

There, does that satisfy everyone now!

 

Not absolutely sorry.

This to me refers to only surrendering your licence to have the name/address changed as part of the same sentence says "and provide.....".

 

If moving abroad meant you had to send in your licence it would say so in the gov.uk page but it doesn't it states -

Moving abroad

If you move abroad, check with the driving licence authorities there to find out how to get a local driving licence. (https://www.gov.uk/driving-abroad)

 

And as already given - https://www.gov.uk/change-address-driving-licence

If you’re moving abroad

You can’t register your new address on your British driving licence. Contact the driving licence authority in your new country of residence.

 

It may be semantics but the argument discussion was about having to send back your UK licence just because you were not resident in the UK anymore. My interpretation of the Road Traffic Act section 4 you quoted is different to yours as nowhere does it specifically state that you have to surrender the licence if you move abroad - who knows if one day you may come back again.......

 

PS - Sorrry Moonlover did not see your reply until posting.

Edited May 21, 2017 by topt
PS

[simoh1490]

1 minute ago, topt said:

Not absolutely sorry.

This to me refers to only surrendering your licence to have the name/address changed as part of the same sentence says "and provide.....".

 

If moving abroad meant you had to send in your licence it would say so in the gov.uk page but it doesn't it states -

Moving abroad

If you move abroad, check with the driving licence authorities there to find out how to get a local driving licence. (https://www.gov.uk/driving-abroad)

 

And as already given - https://www.gov.uk/change-address-driving-licence

If you’re moving abroad

You can’t register your new address on your British driving licence. Contact the driving licence authority in your new country of residence.

 

It may be semantics but the argument discussion was about having to send back your UK licence just because you were not resident in the UK anymore. My interpretation of the Road Traffic Act section 4 you quoted is different to yours as nowhere does it specifically state that you have to surrender the licence if you move abroad - who knows if one day you may come back again.......

It's not even semantics, it's simply trying to hang on to a dead argument despite the details and the act itself being presented to you

 

Why not send your license in and explain, as you are required to do that your address has changed to overseas and see if you get it back again!

 

[topt]

1 minute ago, simoh1490 said:

It's not even semantics, it's simply trying to hang on to a dead argument despite the details and the act itself being presented to you

 

Why not send your license in and explain, as you are required to do that your address has changed to overseas and see if you get it back again!

 

Why on earth would I want to do that as already quoted gov.uk sites don't ask you to do that................

 

As Moonlover has already pointed out the actual act seems somewhat different to what you posted plus as I mention your posting is open to interpretation. This is not a debating contest so I am leaving it here unless someone comes up with an incontrovertible quote to say I have to surrender my licence just because I currently do not live in the UK.

 

If someone does then I will concede I am wrong but I still won't be sending my licence back

[rockingrobin]

14 minutes ago, Moonlover said:

A nice try, but wrong. You are using the beginning of the paragraph out of context.

 

Remove the bold type and the underscore and read the sentence in full and a different story emerges.

 

It is saying (in not very good English) ''If your name or address has changed, you must surrender your licence to have it it updated''.

 

This reference has been lifted, not from the Road Traffic Act itself, but from a web site that is using the information therein.

 

Here is the real Road Traffic Act reference concerning the surrendering of licences. Lifted from:

 

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/52/section/99

 

(32ZA)  ''Where it appears to the Secretary of State that a licence holder is not lawfully resident in the United Kingdom, the Secretary of State may serve notice in writing on that person revoking the licence and requiring the person to surrender the licence and its counterpart forthwith to the Secretary of State, and it is the duty of that person to comply with the requirement''.

 

(3ZB )For the purposes of subsection (3ZA) a person is not lawfully resident in the United Kingdom if the person requires leave to enter or remain in the United Kingdom but does not have it.]

 

And make sure you read the second paragraph carefully before leaping to your keyboards!

 

 

Look at section 7, and 7AA

[rockingrobin]

3 minutes ago, topt said:

Why on earth would I want to do that as already quoted gov.uk sites don't ask you to do that................

 

As Moonlover has already pointed out the actual act seems somewhat different to what you posted plus as I mention your posting is open to interpretation. This is not a debating contest so I am leaving it here unless someone comes up with an incontrovertible quote to say I have to surrender my licence just because I currently do not live in the UK.

 

If someone does then I will concede I am wrong but I still won't be sending my licence back

Take section 4 of the act alongside section 7, 7AA

If your UK licence details are incorrect , then you surrender it to the SoS (va DLVC) , who will issue another licence as long a UK resident.

[simoh1490]

This thread has similar characteristics to any NHS eligibility thread, wot, you say I'm not eligible, of course I am, I always was in the past plus I'm British, I pay taxes and my dad fought in the war! UK license, have to surrender it, there must be some mistake, I always was......................etc etc.

[Moonlover]

6 minutes ago, rockingrobin said:

Look at section 7, and 7AA

Explain why you're referring to these sections please. I do not see that they are in any way relevant.

[transam]

1 minute ago, simoh1490 said:

This thread has similar characteristics to any NHS eligibility thread, wot, you say I'm not eligible, of course I am, I always was in the past plus I'm British, I pay taxes and my dad fought in the war! UK license, have to surrender it, there must be some mistake, I always was......................etc etc.

Well yeh.....And I am sticking to that too.....

[topt]

9 minutes ago, rockingrobin said:

Take section 4 of the act alongside section 7, 7AA

If your UK licence details are incorrect , then you surrender it to the SoS (va DLVC) , who will issue another licence as long a UK resident.

Yes I agree/concede section 4 is the kicker.

What I do not understand though is the lack of a clear statement (which would be so easy) on the relevant .gov.uk sites if, and its a big if, they really wanted this to be enforced. Since you often use your home licence to apply for one abroad one can perhaps assume that pragmatism actually did win out in this case?

[simoh1490]

6 minutes ago, transam said:

Well yeh.....And I am sticking to that too.....

I think that at some point in these types of debates as to what is fact and what is not, some folks (not you) just need to just put up their hands and say OK, that's what it might be but I don't care, I chose to to ignore the rules for drivers licenses/NHS/state pension increases/fuel allowance etc etc. That way we can have the debate/do the research and get to the facts so that everyone else can make an informed decision rather than have them believe a particular set of untruths that are masquerading as fact.

[Eff1n2ret]

39 minutes ago, Moonlover said:

.

 

Here is the real Road Traffic Act reference concerning the surrendering of licences. Lifted from:

 

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/52/section/99

 

(32ZA)  ''Where it appears to the Secretary of State that a licence holder is not lawfully resident in the United Kingdom, the Secretary of State may serve notice in writing on that person revoking the licence and requiring the person to surrender the licence and its counterpart forthwith to the Secretary of State, and it is the duty of that person to comply with the requirement''.

 

(3ZB )For the purposes of subsection (3ZA) a person is not lawfully resident in the United Kingdom if the person requires leave to enter or remain in the United Kingdom but does not have it.]

 

And make sure you read the second paragraph carefully before leaping to your keyboards!

 

 

You have quoted from the wrong part of the Act, it doesn't apply to British citizens or any legal resident. You have ignored other subsections of Para 99 as follows:-

 

"(4)Where the name or address of the licence holder as specified in a licence ceases to be correct, its holder must forthwith surrender the licence to the Secretary of State and provide him with particulars of the alterations falling to be made in the name or address ...

(5)A person who fails to comply with the duty under subsection (4) above is guilty of an offence."

 

This is preceded by sections 1 and 3 as follows:

 

"(1)A licence shall, unless previously revoked or surrendered, remain in force

(3)Where it appears to the Secretary of State—

(b)that the particulars specified in a licence granted by him to any person do not comply with any requirement imposed since the licence was granted by any provision made by or having effect under any enactment,

the Secretary of State may serve notice in writing on that person revoking the licence and requiring him to surrender the licence forthwith to the Secretary of State."

 

(1) is very important because it means that even if you are deemed to have committed an offence under (4) and (5), your licence is still valid until the DVLA write to you to revoke it. I have been unable to find anything that suggests otherwise.

But it does look, contrary to what I previously thought, that if you move abroad you should "forthwith" tell the DVLA. But you're a mug if you do.

Edited May 21, 2017 by Eff1n2ret

[uptheos]

Don't worry Theresa (Farage) May and Phil next door are working on plans to make it tougher, no doubt.

[GBK]

On 20/05/2017 at 2:43 PM, transam said:

Sure, but I am NOT a permanent resident in LOS...They won't let me be one.....

You have applied and been declined?

[Moonlover]

15 minutes ago, Eff1n2ret said:

You have quoted from the wrong part of the Act, it doesn't apply to British citizens or any legal resident. You have ignored other subsections of Para 99 as follows:-

 

"(4)Where the name or address of the licence holder as specified in a licence ceases to be correct, its holder must forthwith surrender the licence to the Secretary of State and provide him with particulars of the alterations falling to be made in the name or address ...

(5)A person who fails to comply with the duty under subsection (4) above is guilty of an offence."

 

This is preceded by sections 1 and 3 as follows:

 

"(1)A licence shall, unless previously revoked or surrendered, remain in force

 

(3)Where it appears to the Secretary of State—

(b)that the particulars specified in a licence granted by him to any person do not comply with any requirement imposed since the licence was granted by any provision made by or having effect under any enactment,

the Secretary of State may serve notice in writing on that person revoking the licence and requiring him to surrender the licence forthwith to the Secretary of State."

 

(1) is very important because it means that even if you are deemed to have committed an offence under (4) and (5), your licence is still valid until the DVLA write to you to revoke it. I have been unable to find anything that suggests otherwise.

But it does look, contrary to what I previously thought, that if you move abroad you should "forthwith" tell the DVLA. But you're a mug if you do.

Do you suppose that the many thousands of armed forces personnel, members of the diplomatic service, expat workers and volunteer workers etc. etc. that serve abroad. surrender their licences? Of course they don't!

 

Do  you suppose that they ever get a letter from DVLA asking them to do so. Of course they don't.

 

Because under the provision I have just sited. As long as you are a British Subject, you  do not require ''leave to enter or remain in the United Kingdom'' you are thus entitled to keep your licence, where ever you may be living at the time.

 

I personally have lived abroad 6 times, for periods lasting from 2 years up to 14 years. And have never encountered any difficulty on my return with renewing or changing the details of my licence.