Inverted aircon

[Naam]

20 minutes ago, Prbkk said:

Home pro is saying 24,000 for each unit

Home Pro info = rubbish²

[dddave]

I purchased a Samsung 18,000 BTU Inverter unit two and a half years ago. I paid about B23,000 installed.  It is installed in my 55 s/m studio apt.  It operates pretty much 24/7 most of the time, excepting cool season.  Both the indoor and outdoor units operate very quietly.  My electric bill dropped dramatically when I installed it however my previous unit was very old and inefficient. On average, over the year, excepting cool season, I figure it cost me about B80 a 24 hour day to run, based on direct power rate, about B4/unit.

 

I have, however had to put about B10,000 into repairs since I purchased it including just last week when I had to have a solenoid replaced, about B4000.  Six months ago it was something else...B3000.   Samsung service is near useless...Long, long waits on phone to even get through, then never less than five days wait for the technicians to come, then usually another few days to get the parts.

Warranty??  Forget about it...whatever goes wrong is never covered.  It was purchased at POWER MALL and their warranty is also vapor...they just give you the number for Samsung.  To say I'm done with Samsung is an understatement.  Admittedly, my unit gets heavy use but 10,000 Baht in repairs over less than 3 years is unacceptable.

[Prbkk]

8 minutes ago, Naam said:

Home Pro info = rubbish²

Yes, well I suspected as much, reinforced by the fact that they all run away and hide when they see me coming.

So, any advice on what I might need?

[Naam]

Just now, Prbkk said:

Yes, well I suspected as much, reinforced by the fact that they all run away and hide when they see me coming.

So, any advice on what I might need?

-m² of your bedrooms?

-desired temp ºC bedrooms?

-average time of use bedrooms from > to?

-number of persons sleeping?

-desired temp ºC living/dining area?

-average time of use living/dining area from > to?

-average number of persons in living/dining area?

[Prbkk]

2 minutes ago, Naam said:

-m² of your bedrooms?

-desired temp ºC bedrooms?

-average time of use bedrooms from > to?

-number of persons sleeping?

-desired temp ºC living/dining area?

-average time of use living/dining area from > to?

-average number of persons in living/dining area?

35 SQM each, 22 degrees, 8 hours, 2 per room, 22 degrees, 12 hours max per day ( between 9.00am-midnight, usually 2 people, rarely more than 6.

Thanks.

[Naam]

16 minutes ago, Prbkk said:

22 degrees

is indeed a high demand that makes me retract my "rubbish" comment

did your presently installed units cool to your satisfaction during last years april temps of 36-38ºC? if yes i suggest to go for units each 18k btu/h.

[Prbkk]

1 minute ago, Naam said:

is indeed a high demand that makes me retract my "rubbish" comment

did your presently installed units cool to your satisfaction during last years april temps of 36-38ºC? if yes i suggest to go for units each 18k btu/h.

Thanks, yes the current 18,000 units do the job ok even in the worst of the hot . But they are 10 years old and I decided to replace before they die ( and I die, hopefully).

[Gary A]

I think it is highly possible that at least the inverter units are overrated as far as BTUs. I say that because the bedroom with the 9,000 BTU old Samsung gets cooler than my computer room. Both rooms are the same size. and no direct sun on either room.  The outside compressor unit for the inverter is about three and a half meters from the computer room. Since the unit came pre charged, I suspected that it was undercharged because of the longer piping. We got a free cleaning and checkup from the installer (Home Pro). I wasn't home but my wife said they checked everything and it was OK. It would appear, at least to me that the Panasonic inverter 12,000 BTU is considerably overrated. As I mentioned before, if I had it to do over again, I would have bought a conventional 9,000 BTU unit.

 

My bedroom at the condo is larger than the rooms at the house. The 10,200 BTU conventional LG does a great job even on the hottest days.

[Naam]

3 hours ago, Gary A said:

It would appear, at least to me that the Panasonic inverter 12,000 BTU is considerably overrated.

all inverters are overrated because there is no tangible method to test actual performance except in a lab where all variables are constant. that applies also to reports such as "my electricity is now only..." without background info, e.g. "i finally got rid of that 15 year old no-name rattler which had to be topped up once a year."

[Gary A]

I can't say anything about the running costs but I can say that a ten year old 9,000 BTU Samsung cools better than a 12,000 BTU Panasonic inverter. When the Samsung gives up, I'll e buying an LG the same as the one I bought for the condo.

[Naam]

6 minutes ago, Gary A said:

I can't say anything about the running costs but I can say that a ten year old 9,000 BTU Samsung cools better than a 12,000 BTU Panasonic inverter. When the Samsung gives up, I'll e buying an LG the same as the one I bought for the condo.

the inverter aficionados will crucify you for that blasphemy!

[mogandave]

Also note the, making sure your doors and windows are well sealed and getting some insulation in the ceiling will help a lot.

Curtains and double-pane windows are a quick pay-back


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[Gary A]

1 hour ago, Naam said:

the inverter aficionados will crucify you for that blasphemy!

 

I just call it as I see it. Maybe I should mention that both rooms have poorly fitted single pane windows. I doubt if the lowered ceilings help any.

[Naam]

2 hours ago, mogandave said:

Also note the, making sure your doors and windows are well sealed and getting some insulation in the ceiling will help a lot.

Curtains and double-pane windows are a quick pay-back
 

double-pane no savings when you ventilate the home (as i do) with small exhaust fans 24/7 and a short "blast" with a huge wholehouse fan every morning before sunrise. additional average energy cost apr-oct ~2,500.- / nov-mar ~1,000.- Baht.

 

gereally double-pane glass, if not required for noise reduction, is wasted money in a tropical country with an average "delta t" of 6ºC.  

 

sorry for being a pain in the àrse  

[Naam]

2 hours ago, Gary A said:

 

I just call it as I see it. Maybe I should mention that both rooms have poorly fitted single pane windows. I doubt if the lowered ceilings help any.

right you are. high ceilings and lower mounted inside units (which do not suck the hottest room air but leave it undisturbed) help.

[mogandave]

double-pane no savings when you ventilate the home (as i do) with small exhaust fans 24/7 and a short "blast" with a huge wholehouse fan every morning before sunrise. additional average energy cost apr-oct ~2,500.- / nov-mar ~1,000.- Baht.
 
gereally double-pane glass, if not required for noise reduction, is wasted money in a tropical country with an average "delta t" of 6ºC.  
 
sorry for being a pain in the àrse  

I am not clear how reducing the thermal conductivity of the windows results in "no" savings.

[Naam]

29 minutes ago, mogandave said:

I am not clear how reducing the thermal conductivity of the windows results in "no" savings.
 

with the insignificant delta t in tropical countries the savings do not cover return on initial capital outlay for a private person. moreover (to the best of my knowledge) "real" double-pane glazing with either a vacuum between the panes or filled with Argon is not available in Thailand but has to be imported.

[Gary A]

If I were to build a new house, I would take care to install much better windows than are in our older house. The existing window frames are made of wood and are about 6 by 4 feet. There are a lot of windows and all are the same. It simply would not be cost effective to replace those windows. I have made sure that they are closed as tightly as possible by driving wooden wedges in the outside frames. The ceilings were lowered simply because they look better. If I had to heat the house, I would have added insulation but battling the heat is the objective and since hot air rises, insulation in the ceiling would help nothing.

[KittenKong]

22 hours ago, dddave said:

Admittedly, my unit gets heavy use but 10,000 Baht in repairs over less than 3 years is unacceptable.

 

My Hitachi air-con is on more or less all day and all night all the year. It is getting on for four years old. It's never had any repairs at all. Just a proper clean every 4-6 months.

[KittenKong]

20 minutes ago, Gary A said:

I would have added insulation but battling the heat is the objective and since hot air rises, insulation in the ceiling would help nothing.

 

If the roof of your house is directly above your ceiling and you have no insulation then you may find that the ceiling does get hot from radiated heat from the roof. If so a reflective aluminium membrane in the loft space would probably reduce your cooling costs quite significantly. For flat concrete roofs the saving would be even greater. These get really hot as anyone on the top floor of a condo will probably know.

[mogandave]

with the insignificant delta t in tropical countries the savings do not cover return on initial capital outlay for a private person. moreover (to the best of my knowledge) "real" double-pane glazing with either a vacuum between the panes or filled with Argon is not available in Thailand but has to be imported.

Not sure what the delta t is, but there are some good window manufacturers here, at least one that exports to the US, although the name escapes me.

I think the nitrogen charged are more effective at reducing heat transfer than vacuum, but I know little about air conditioning and less about windows.

[mogandave]

If heat rises, how does it get here from the Sun? ( just kidding)


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[Gary A]

2 hours ago, KittenKong said:

 

If the roof of your house is directly above your ceiling and you have no insulation then you may find that the ceiling does get hot from radiated heat from the roof. If so a reflective aluminium membrane in the loft space would probably reduce your cooling costs quite significantly. For flat concrete roofs the saving would be even greater. These get really hot as anyone on the top floor of a condo will probably know.

 

Our roof likely absorbs a lot of heat. Under the roof is the original ceiling and then another lower ceiling. Laying my hand on the lowered ceiling feels warm but certainly not hot. I think the cool air from the aircon stays below this. I think gable end extraction fans would help but my house had no gable ends. I had considered one of those wind powered whirligig extractors but the risk of damage to the roof tiles was too great. My electric bill is quite reasonable so I'm satisfied as things are.  

[Naam]

8 hours ago, Gary A said:

since hot air rises, insulation in the ceiling would help nothing.

it helps a lot to prevent heat transfer from the attic down to your rooms. even a properly ventilated attic can't have a lower temperature than the ambient one which is much higher than the air in an airconditoned room.

[Naam]

6 hours ago, mogandave said:

Not sure what the delta t

δt  difference of temperatures (inside/ambient). in tropical countries (aircon) rather low 6 max 10ºC but in countries with harsh winters up to 50ºC and more. in Germany triple pane glazing is nowadays mandatory for new buildings.  

[Naam]

6 hours ago, mogandave said:

I think the nitrogen charged are more effective at reducing heat transfer than vacuum

no medium transfers less heat than a vacuum. the slightly pressured gas makes double pane glazing more shock resistant, i.e. less breakage.

[Naam]

6 hours ago, mogandave said:

there are some good window manufacturers here, at least one that exports to the US, although the name escapes me.

that's quite possible. my 15 years experience in the U.S. of A. is that Americans are the biggest energy wasters. their main concern is the price of gasoline, which they call "gas", per gallon. 

[mogandave]

δt  difference of temperatures (inside/ambient). in tropical countries (aircon) rather low 6 max 10ºC but in countries with harsh winters up to 50ºC and more. in Germany triple pane glazing is nowadays mandatory for new buildings.  

I would think in Thailand 10 would be about average.

[Naam]

1 minute ago, Naam said:

Americans are the biggest energy wasters

in 1993 i took the building authority of Volusia County, Florida to court because i was ordere not to bury the flexible ducts of my central airconditioning systems under R60 blown-in insulation as they can't be checked periodically for leakage. i won!

[Naam]

1 minute ago, mogandave said:

I would think in Thailand 10 would be about average.

our home is kept at ~26º but the outside temperature is not a constant 36º all year. november till mid march the differential is barely 4º and 10º might be reached only in april/may and that not every day.