Trump says U.S. to withdraw from Paris climate accord

[ddavidovsky]

4 minutes ago, simple1 said:

The PA is “non-binding.” In lay terms, the deal makes no changes to a country’s laws, and thus does not require acceptance by domestic legislative bodies to be considered as in effect. As such, the PA does not carry the full force of law, and no U.S. entity is required to undertake any new burdens to comply with it.

Read more: https://www.americanactionforum.org/research/paris-agreement-stay-not-stay/#ixzz4ipFM2atj 
Follow us: @AAF on Twitter

So the CO2 taxes involved were not to be legally enforced - only a polite request? Sounds like a legal cavil to maintain that the Agreement has no necessary legal implication whatsoever, when that was certainly the moral intention. Fact is, the Agreement is intended to have practical consequences. How to make it work if not through law?

 

All of which proves that the process of governance on such matters is inadequate. America is unravelling.

[Rob13]

7 minutes ago, Ramen087 said:

Incorrect, the USA is not moving backward.  The USA has plenty of forward looking programs that will continue to exist.  Don't believe the doomsayer hype.  The innovation in the energy sector is not coming to a halt.  There is money to be made in it, and the fundamentals of the market will keep innovators doing their thing. 

I'd like to believe you but I'm not seeing it in the news, which is pretty much my only source of info for this kind of stuff. 

[Ramen087]

1 minute ago, Rob13 said:

I'd like to believe you but I'm not seeing it in the news, which is pretty much my only source of info for this kind of stuff. 

You need to read it in the news that businesses fill a void where there is money to be made?  Do you think all forward looking energy companies are just going to close shop now that this decision has been made?  I find that highly doubtful.

[sujoop]

1 hour ago, Ramen087 said:

DT doing what he said he would during the campaign.

He's putting the USA's own interests first, prioritizing jobs in the here and now.

 

Jobs? Ok, let's talk jobs. Trump (and his minority of supporters) go on about  bringing back dwindling, sunset industry, coal mine jobs etc. I'm all for trying to shore up any jobs that are out there  but a FORWARD  thinking leader would prioritize getting solidly behind supporting highly skilled NEW & future job creation sectors to REPLACE those jobs which we KNOW are fast becoming redundant. Promoting the fastest growing alternative energy sector is a no brainer and would be irresponsible not to (even if the main motivation appears to be 'WHITE-out' anything Obama ever touched...)

 

Meanwhile, DESPITE the real-life Simpson's cartoon cariacture  as the President and a minority of supporters who appear determined to win Darwin awards while happily waltzing along into the tar pits (and attempt to drag us with them) the facts are:
 

Solar Employs More People In U.S. Electricity Generation Than Oil, Coal And Gas Combined
https://www.forbes.com/sites/niallmccarthy/2017/01/25/u-s-solar-energy-employs-more-people-than-oil-coal-and-gas-combined-infographic/#50d5df2a2800
 

 

U.S. Solar Jobs Jumped Almost 25% In the Past Year
The rise in installations was caused by a rapid decrease in the cost of solar panels and unprecedented consumer demand
http://fortune.com/2017/02/07/us-solar-jobs-2016/
--------------

WHITE HOUSE: The Paris climate accord "would effectively decapitate our coal industry, which now supplies about one-third of our electric power."

THE FACTS: The U.S. coal industry was in decline long before the Paris accord was signed in 2015. The primary cause has been competition from cleaner-burning natural gas, which has been made cheaper and more abundant by hydraulic fracturing. Electric utilities have been replacing coal plants with gas-fired facilities because they are more efficient and less expensive to operate.

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/international/world-news/ap-fact-check-trumps-shaky-claims-on-climate-accord/articleshow/58953525.cms

[Rob13]

10 minutes ago, Ramen087 said:

You need to read it in the news that businesses fill a void where there is money to be made?  Do you think all forward looking energy companies are just going to close shop now that this decision has been made?  I find that highly doubtful.

 

Problem with that scenario is innovative start up companies need a little help to get started, especially in fields dominated by powerhouses like the O&G cartel. Trump has nixed any support a small start up in alternative energies may hope to get from the gov. 

 

Waiting around for the oil and gas conglomerates to come up with an alternative income for themselves is backward thinking, which from where I'm sitting is what trump's policy is about.

 

Climate change is real or not, It's time the US moved on from fossil fuels. It won't happen without gov support and input.

 

Edited June 2, 2017 by Rob13

[Ramen087]

All of those solar businesses will continue to exist. And now so will the coal jobs, which provide 30 plus percent of electricity.

 

They may continue to decline, but let them do what they can while market forces do the rest. 

 

Win-Win.

 

Leaving the accord does nothing to stop the innovators from continuing to do business. 

 

If you feel the need to bash the USA's President, go head. You'll have lots of company on this forum. 

[Ramen087]

2 minutes ago, Rob13 said:

Problem with that scenario is innovative start up companies need a little help to get started, especially in fields dominated by powerhouses like the O&G cartel. Trump has nixed any support a small start up in alternative energies may hope to get from the gov. 

Waiting around for the oil and gas conglomerates to come up with an alternative income for themselves is backward thinking, which from where I'm sitting is what trump's policy is about.

Climate change is real or not, It's time the US moved on from fossil fuels. It won't happen without gov support and input.

There is no problem with that scenario. I had no idea that a real business that fills a real need would need a subsidy to exist.  If you have a business plan that works, you can find the venture capital.  Other means can be sought via agreements with local governments, but that is off topic... so if you'd like to discuss it, you may want to start a thread. There also exists on this board a climate change thread.  Not a subject related to this thread either. This thread is about the decision to leave the Paris Accord. 

[stevenl]

16 minutes ago, Ramen087 said:

You need to read it in the news that businesses fill a void where there is money to be made?  Do you think all forward looking energy companies are just going to close shop now that this decision has been made?  I find that highly doubtful.

Yes, we can only hope many people will ignore Trump on this.

[55Jay]

3 hours ago, sujoop said:

Military experts say climate change poses 'significant risk' to security

A coalition of 25 military and national security experts, including former advisers to Ronald Reagan and George W Bush, has warned that climate change poses a “significant risk to US national security and international security” that requires more attention from the US federal government.
 

The prominent members of the US national security community warned that warming temperatures and rising seas will increasingly inundate military bases and fuel international conflict and mass migration, leading to “significant and direct risks to US military readiness, operations and strategy”.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2016/sep/14/military-experts-climate-change-significant-security-risk

 

Military Leaders Urge Trump to See Climate as a Security Threat

Stresses from climate change can increase the likelihood of international or civil conflict, state failure, mass migration and instability in strategically significant areas around the world, the defense experts argue.
 

Many military leaders say that considering climate change and renewable energy has made their branches more resilient fighting forces and bureaucracies, starting with reducing emissions and creating a nimble fighting culture that is less dependent on fossil fuels.
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/military-leaders-urge-trump-to-see-climate-as-a-security-threat/

------------------

Thus one assumes Trump's too clever by half supporters who's main pillar is anti-refugee/immigrant etc would thrust their doors open if (or rather when) people start (or rather ramp-up) displacement,  fights over climate change affected areas, dwindling resources, fresh water, etc....

After all that, your point fails because it relies on a ubiquitous distortion. 

 

[Ramen087]

22 minutes ago, Ramen087 said:

You need to read it in the news that businesses fill a void where there is money to be made?  Do you think all forward looking energy companies are just going to close shop now that this decision has been made?  I find that highly doubtful.

 

5 minutes ago, stevenl said:

Yes, we can only hope many people will ignore Trump on this.

 

Are you serious? 

[simple1]

7 minutes ago, ddavidovsky said:

So the CO2 taxes involved were not to be legally enforced - only a polite request? Sounds like a legal cavil to maintain that the Agreement has no necessary legal implication whatsoever, when that was certainly the moral intention. Fact is, the Agreement is intended to have practical consequences. How to make it work if not through law?

 

All of which proves that the process of governance on such matters is inadequate. America is unravelling.

Agree. The Paris Agreement was specifically designed to permit flexibility by governments on what they will / will not do on an ongoing basis, not a fixed in time legally binding worldwide agreement which would have been impossible to achieve. IMO an idealistic document, but some countries seek to achieve improvement  of their environment and economy for their population and others. Trump's decision appears to indicate he did not understand the construct of the Agreement, thereby putting himself on the outer or to use blunter words, a target of ridicule.

[Rob13]

5 minutes ago, Ramen087 said:

. I had no idea that a real business that fills a real need would need a subsidy to exis

 

Business 101. They do when competing a field of billion dollar corporations.

 

The idea is to stay competitive in a changing world, right now China is moving ahead in the energy sector because of the R&D their doing. What you and your trumpies are suggesting is maintaining the status quo to keep a few coal jobs going, while cutting the life line to companies working on the cutting edge of energy technology. It's a lose/lose situation. Like trying to hold on to your stone tools in an emerging bronze age. 

 

[iReason]

9 minutes ago, Ramen087 said:

I had no idea that a real business that fills a real need would need a subsidy to exist.

 

Is that right?

 

Well, here is a beginners primer:

 

The 8 Biggest Corporate Welfare Recipients in America

http://www.cheatsheet.com/business/high-on-the-hog-the-top-8-corporate-welfare-recipients.html/?a=viewall

 

The United States of subsidies: The biggest corporate winners in each state

https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/govbeat/wp/2015/03/17/the-united-states-of-subsidies-the-biggest-corporate-winners-in-each-state/?utm_term=.b075ce79a665

 

Two-Thirds Of Federal Subsidies Benefit Big Business, Banks

http://dailycaller.com/2015/03/17/two-thirds-of-federal-subsidies-benefit-big-business-banks/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporate_welfare

 

Write your Congressperson. 

[Ramen087]

7 minutes ago, Rob13 said:

Business 101. They do when competing a field of billion dollar corporations.

The idea is to stay competitive in a changing world, right now China is moving ahead in the energy sector because of the R&D their doing. What you and your trumpies are suggesting is maintaining the status quo to keep a few coal jobs going, while cutting the life line to companies working on the cutting edge of energy technology. It's a lose/lose situation. Like trying to hold on to your stone tools in an emerging bronze age. 

You are incorrect about calling me a trumpie or in a group of such; if you have a point to make, do that.

Personal insults as you obviously intended with your comment are not necessary and unwelcome.

It's nice to be nice.

TESLA automotive? Seems to me they got something done using cash and government agreements as I previously wrote. They compete against billion $$$ companies. 

Win-Win. 

Oh, and don't forget this: This thread is about leaving the Paris Accord. I'm done chatting regarding barrier to entry. 

Edited June 2, 2017 by Ramen087

[Ramen087]

@ iReason    as previously stated, my submission was a one time off topic response...

 

Bye.

[Rob13]

8 minutes ago, Ramen087 said:

You are incorrect about calling me a trumpie or in a group of such; if you have a point to make, do that.

Personal insults as you obviously intended with your comment are not necessary and unwelcome.

 

trumpie is no more an insult than calling an IT guy a techie. 

 

As for Tesla, They have received billions from the gov.

The gov't can act on behalf of the people and promote next generation technology to keep the country competitive or support the dinosaur oil companies at the cost of maintaining the position of global leader.

Edited June 2, 2017 by Rob13

[iReason]

7 minutes ago, Ramen087 said:

@ iReason    as previously stated, my submission was a one time off topic response...

Bye.

 

Hopefully, you've gone off to educate yourself.

[Ramen087]

1 minute ago, Rob13 said:

 

 

[stevenl]

27 minutes ago, Ramen087 said:

 

 

Are you serious? 

Of course I am. And it seems others like BP, Exxon Mobile, GE etc. agree with me.

[dunroaming]

10 hours ago, mesquite said:

Cue the whiners.  And 3...2...1.

I don't think that whining covers it really.  This is Trump doing what all the well informed people around the world expected him to do and is in line with his usual stupidity.  It just ticked another box to confirm his lunacy and that was illustrated by his statement.  He clearly does not understand how an international agreement works and he makes himself look even stupider by saying after they leave they will attempt to re-negotiate a better deal.  Dumb doesn't even come close.

[kannot]

6 hours ago, darksidedog said:

Maybe the plan is for America to become the new North Korea. The similarities are there. Both are focused on isolationism and both are run by an untrustworthy, fat psychopathic megalomaniac.

yet Americans  can get on a  plane and travel anywhere in the world...........how about North Koreans?

[kannot]

2 hours ago, MRYANG said:

Trump can't lessen pollution. Only YOU can. Stop buy stuff. Use bicycle. Do you already? Probably not and STILL whining. Sigh.... stupid at best.

i had  no  kids

[CGW]

10 hours ago, Aforek said:

Biggest ass hole in the world, biggest criminal in the world, Trump you are the shame of  America  

now USA will be hated by the rest of the planet, because of you 

I don't know if you realise this but America is not well thought of by the "rest of the planet" regardless of what Trump does or doesn't do!

"Your" actions over the past 25 years+ haven't been very well received by most, could you not have a change of policy and look internally at the mess your country and people are in and stop trying to be the worlds policeman?

Stop having such high opinions of yourselves, its really not very admirable you know!

Thank you.

[owl sees all]

Climate change: Trump's latest inner-circle meeting.

 

Trump to aide - that's another problem sorted.

Aide to trump - what's next Mr President?

Trump to aide - sort out that Asian dick head; what's his name?

Aide to Trump - Kim Jung IIl!?

Trump to aide - yes that's him; the fat little shit. Blow him to <deleted>>.

Aide to Trump - and after that Mr President?

Trump to Aide - the wall, the wall. Get me Mexico on-line now!

Aide to Trump - anything else Mr President?

Trump to Aide - yes; get me some hair spray. I'm clean out.

[sujoop]

1 hour ago, Ramen087 said:

If you feel the need to bash the USA's President, go head. You'll have lots of company on this forum. 

 

Not just this forum, the majority in the U.S. and the world are sadly laughing too. Trump supporters just don't 'get it' why the vast majority  deservedly laugh (or sadly shake heads) at a President who proclaims 'A NEW era in energy'  while prioritizing bringing back a few sunset coal jobs...

 

Or laugh when Ivanka says 'I'm very proud of my father's advocacy for women'...

Or when Sean Spicer claims it was 'the largest inauguration in history'...

Or, wonder why the whole audience laughs when Kellyanne Conway complains about 'liars' while offering 'alternative facts' ... (to which she reacted perplexed, not 'getting' why everyone was laughing;)

 

Could also add endless buffoonery and self-boasting Trump tweets as well. Bottom line: Trump has reduced America to a laughing stock and if one is not embarrassed, aware, or disturbed by this, one must be suffering from Kellyane syndrome above...

[dunroaming]

27 minutes ago, CGW said:

I don't know if you realise this but America is not well thought of by the "rest of the planet" regardless of what Trump does or doesn't do!

Not sure that is strictly true.  Obama was well respected outside of the USA, the problem really is Trump and his mob.  The Iraq fiasco under Bush did an enormous amount of damage to America's credibility and now with Trump the hole gets considerably deeper. 

 

But it is time for the arrogance to go and reality to kick in

[Jingthing]

International perception of the USA ebbs and flows but trump is bringing approval down dramatically. Excepting certain dictatorships.

 

 

[owl sees all]

4 hours ago, Grouse said:

Your country is about 250 years old.

 

Europe and Asia have been around for thousands of years

What was in the USA before the country was formed? Surely the continents are roughly the same age?! But this is not the point being made here, I'm sure. All the industrialised countries have been polluting the earth for the last 250 years.

[Grouse]

2 hours ago, Ramen087 said:

http://nypost.com/2017/06/01/in-ditching-paris-deal-trump-does-right-by-america-and-the-world/       Why the decision to leave the Paris Accord makes sense ...

 

Excerpt Below: 

 

In fact, Trump had already abandoned the Paris goals by junking Obama’s Clean Power Plan. Yet he’s not turning back the clock. He’s just saying no to what Obama sought to impose — a rush to a low-carbon America at huge economic cost.

 

Under Paris, as Trump noted, the United States would’ve had to close all its coal plants, even as China builds hundreds more — and coal still generates a third of US electricity.

 

Yet America will continue to cut its carbon emissions: They’re already down by a fifth since 2000, thanks to fracking and the gradual replacement of coal plants with natural-gas ones. That’s better than Europe did as it implemented Kyoto by making electricity cost twice as much as it does here.

 

Nor did Paris make sense. As Danish economist Bjorn Lomborg notes, it entails costs of over $1 trillion a year to shave 0.36 degrees Fahrenheit off global temperatures by 2100 — a tenth the reduction it said is necessary.

 

The better response, Lomborg argues, is massive R&D in non-carbon power — so that humanity needn’t impoverish itself to “save the planet.” As he pursues smart post-Paris policies, Trump ought to boost outlays for “green energy” R&D.

https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/01/18/world/asia/china-coal-power-plants-pollution.html

 

Looks like China are the world leaders now!

[Grouse]

6 minutes ago, owl sees all said:

What was in the USA before the country was formed? Surely the continents are roughly the same age?! But this is not the point being made here, I'm sure. All the industrialised countries have been polluting the earth for the last 250 years.

Population per sq km over time.