Testosterone, steroids, etc.

[faraday]

UK peptides.com has good reviews.

 

I bought some tb500 for my dogs tendonitis, & they were delivered safely without intervention.

 

Hmmm....just checked that site, & it's for sale.

 

Ok then, musclegurus.com is a good review site, from my experience in treating my dogs.

 

 

[Ks45672]

3 hours ago, hyku1147 said:

SubQ TRT produces less aromatasation than intramuscular injection.

Is there any conclusive studies backing this up? 

 

Currently I use a 1" 25 guage needle to inject and it works fine in every major muscle but i have used 1.75"  21 and 23 needles in the past 

 

Would be open to try lowering my dose and doing subq and using a smaller needle although I don't really get any pain from Im Shots modern research says subq maybe more optimal 

 

 

[mokwit]

Popular belief has it that lower aromatisation from SubQ because released more slowly from fat and smaller injections means less of an overshoot - it is overshoot of T that leads to higher E.

[WaveHunter]

5 hours ago, simon43 said:

In response to WaveHunter's comment about my dosage, I probably got the units wrong!  Until recently, I injected twice a week from a 1ml ampoule, with that ampoule lasting 2 weeks (ie - split into 4), resulting in a high T level of about 1,200.

 

Now I split it into 5, ie 0.2ml per injection, and that results in a T level of about 900.  My estradiol is around 28, with a quarter of a tab every week.

 

BTW, I am stocked up with T ampoules, but running low on the tiny E tablets.  Can these be easily obtained or do I need to return to Maximum Fitness in BKK or Pattaya?  Thanks.

By “E tablets” I’m gûessing you mean Anastrozole (Arrimidex ).  If so, very easy to find in certain pharmacies in both Bangkok and Pattaya.  I think I might violate forum rules by mentioning specific pharmacies but if you message me I can give you names.

 

i hope you’re running periodic blood panels though, and not just self-prescribing.  E2 can change over time, as can TT, so you wanna track them every few months or at least twice a year.  

 

Not trying to be a preacher...just sayin’ ????

 

[WaveHunter]

3 hours ago, mokwit said:

Popular belief has it that lower aromatisation from SubQ because released more slowly from fat and smaller injections means less of an overshoot - it is overshoot of T that leads to higher E.

I’ve always preferred split doses by Sub-Q.  There’s always been debate about efficacy of intra-muscular vs subcutaneous injections for TRT.  

 

Honestly, I think there’s probably not much practical difference in delivery or aromatization either way...or at least I haven’t seen any definitive studies that support one versus the other.  

 

Also, if you consider the relatively low doses for TRT and the 5-8 day half life, I’m not even sure if there’s any advantage to splitting up weekly doses in terms of avoiding spiky levels of testosterone in the bloodstream. 

 

Of course it does seem logical that delivery through fat tissue instead of muscle might smooth out delivery and alter aromatization but I’d guess it would be a minimal difference.  Nonetheless, If anyone knows of any studies...please share since it could be of interest.

 

I do split doses but the only reason is to minimize the lumps you get under the skin from sub-Q injections.

 

Of course when it comes to comfort and safety, I definitely think sub-Q is the way to go for TRT.  I am NOT a fan of sticking big *ss needles deep into muscle on a regular basis...definitely not a good thing! ????

 

 

Edited March 26, 2019 by WaveHunter

[Ks45672]

7 hours ago, WaveHunter said:

I’ve always preferred split doses by Sub-Q.  There’s always been debate about efficacy of intra-muscular vs subcutaneous injections for TRT.  

 

Honestly, I think there’s probably not much practical difference in delivery or aromatization either way...or at least I haven’t seen any definitive studies that support one versus the other.  

 

Also, if you consider the relatively low doses for TRT and the 5-8 day half life, I’m not even sure if there’s any advantage to splitting up weekly doses in terms of avoiding spiky levels of testosterone in the bloodstream. 

 

Of course it does seem logical that delivery through fat tissue instead of muscle might smooth out delivery and alter aromatization but I’d guess it would be a minimal difference.  Nonetheless, If anyone knows of any studies...please share since it could be of interest.

 

I do split doses but the only reason is to minimize the lumps you get under the skin from sub-Q injections.

 

Of course when it comes to comfort and safety, I definitely think sub-Q is the way to go for TRT.  I am NOT a fan of sticking big *ss needles deep into muscle on a regular basis...definitely not a good thing! ????

 

 

25g x 1 inch  are easy and normally painless 

If you can hold the needle steady and depress the plunger, the more you move it, the more tissue you will tear up (that's the pain you feel the next day) 

 

Its a bit tricky using the left hand if you are right handed but you get used to it, using a mirror helps or inject the quad or ventroglute makes it easier than twisting for the glute muscle

[robblok]

10 hours ago, Ks45672 said:

25g x 1 inch  are easy and normally painless 

If you can hold the needle steady and depress the plunger, the more you move it, the more tissue you will tear up (that's the pain you feel the next day) 

 

Its a bit tricky using the left hand if you are right handed but you get used to it, using a mirror helps or inject the quad or ventroglute makes it easier than twisting for the glute muscle

I just trained my gf to do it, i lay face down she finds the spot. Much better then doing it myself. Never any pain the next day. Sometimes a bit as it goes in but minor and short.

[WaveHunter]

On 3/26/2019 at 11:08 AM, Ks45672 said:

Is there any conclusive studies backing this up? 

 

Currently I use a 1" 25 guage needle to inject and it works fine in every major muscle but i have used 1.75"  21 and 23 needles in the past 

 

Would be open to try lowering my dose and doing subq and using a smaller needle although I don't really get any pain from Im Shots modern research says subq maybe more optimal 

 

 

Give it a shot and see what you think.  I know of no studies regarding lower aromatization via sub-Q but use of anastrozole by almost everyone doing TRT makes that point moot I think.  I do know that there have been well documented studies to show that sub-Q is just as effective in TRT as IM.

 

I think the best reason to go sub-Q is no scarring of muscle tissue (considering that TRT involves repeated injections over time), and less likeliness of having to deal with a deep muscle abscess from a bad injection (i.e.: I'd rather deal with an abscess just below the skin than deep in a muscle) 

 

The drawbacks of sub-Q?  It's a little more involved since you have to draw with a larger gauge needle (18g) and then transfer to a smaller one (insulin 27g), and of course, the plunger will move slower on injection...but actually I just changed to 26g, and it's pretty fast.  You get used to the added step, and actually I can do my injections, start-to-finish during a TV commercial and be back watching my show in a few minutes ????

 

Each to his own, but I just like the idea of inserting a needle just under the skin instead of deep into muscle.

[Ks45672]

20 minutes ago, WaveHunter said:

Give it a shot and see what you think.  I know of no studies regarding lower aromatization via sub-Q but use of anastrozole by almost everyone doing TRT makes that point moot I think.  I do know that there have been well documented studies to show that sub-Q is just as effective in TRT as IM.

 

I think the best reason to go sub-Q is no scarring of muscle tissue (considering that TRT involves repeated injections over time), and less likeliness of having to deal with a deep muscle abscess from a bad injection (i.e.: I'd rather deal with an abscess just below the skin than deep in a muscle) 

 

The drawbacks of sub-Q?  It's a little more involved since you have to draw with a larger gauge needle (18g) and then transfer to a smaller one (insulin 27g), and of course, the plunger will move slower on injection...but actually I just changed to 26g, and it's pretty fast.  You get used to the added step, and actually I can do my injections, start-to-finish during a TV commercial and be back watching my show in a few minutes ????

 

Each to his own, but I just like the idea of inserting a needle just under the skin instead of deep into muscle.

Seems to be the modern way  of doing it these days.... 

 

https://www.t-nation.com/pharma/get-20-better-results-from-testosterone

 

I read somewhere  you can use 20% less to get the same blood level with subQ, I'll post the study the article If I find it again

[WaveHunter]

7 minutes ago, Ks45672 said:

Seems to be the modern way  of doing it these days.... 

 

https://www.t-nation.com/pharma/get-20-better-results-from-testosterone

 

I read somewhere  you can use 20% less to get the same blood level with subQ, I'll post the study the article If I find it again

Ya know, that might be true.  It seems logical that dispersing through fat might keep the dose in your system longer.  I wonder if any studies actually show a change in the half-life based on sub-Q vs IM?  I'd be curious to see the study if you find it.

 

BTW, the doctor that article referenced (Crisler) does a lot of YouTube videos.  He's a real character LOL!  I don't mean that in a bad way.  He's just such a macho type; just the sort of guy you'd expect to be expounding the virtues of TRT LOL!  But yeah, he is a big proponent of sub-Q and I remember one of his videos really made me feel that my doctor was correct and that subQ was the right way to go.

[robblok]

I might start trying subQ, will see how it goes. Its not as if it will kill me... (famous last words)

[Ks45672]

On 3/26/2019 at 12:03 PM, faraday said:

UK peptides.com has good reviews.

 

I bought some tb500 for my dogs tendonitis, & they were delivered safely without intervention.

 

Hmmm....just checked that site, & it's for sale.

 

Ok then, musclegurus.com is a good review site, from my experience in treating my dogs.

 

 

Is it not a bit risky ordering from websites abroad when you're in Thailand? 

 

I usually use Thai or Indian made generics they sell here and Ive yet to get a bad batch in over 10 years and very cost effective too

[robblok]

1 hour ago, Ks45672 said:

Is it not a bit risky ordering from websites abroad when you're in Thailand? 

 

I usually use Thai or Indian made generics they sell here and Ive yet to get a bad batch in over 10 years and very cost effective too

Are we talking peptides.. HGH or steroids here ?

[TDCNINJA]

On 3/26/2019 at 12:08 AM, Ks45672 said:

Is there any conclusive studies backing this up? 

 

Currently I use a 1" 25 guage needle to inject and it works fine in every major muscle but i have used 1.75"  21 and 23 needles in the past 

 

Would be open to try lowering my dose and doing subq and using a smaller needle although I don't really get any pain from Im Shots modern research says subq maybe more optimal 

 

 

https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/c425/5344938573281d74dec4a8a0ed674ad4f0c7.pdf

[TDCNINJA]

In the US, the three major laboratory corporations have all lowered their ranges for what is considered 'normal' testosterone levels. 

Western males today now have average testosterone levels that are 2-3 times lower than for a western male during WW2. 

I have to say that about 98% of the posts in this thread are giving completely inaccurate information about TRT (Testosterone replacement therapy)

With so many outright falsehoods posted in this thread where do I start. Let me just give some of the most basic tenants of TRT.

 

1) It is maddening that anyone would take testosterone without first checking the following:

• CBC (includes immune cells, red blood cells, and hematocrit)
• CMP-14 (Includes kidney and liver function, glucose and electrolytes)
• Lipid Panel (LDL, HDL, Triglycerides)
• Testosterone free and total (LC/MS assay with no upper limit)
• Estradiol, Sensitive (LC/MS assay)
• DHEA-sulfate (Dehydroepiandrosterone Sulfate)
• TSH (Thyroid Stimulating Hormone)
• Free T3 (Free Triiodothyronine )
• PSA (Prostatic Specific Antigen)
• SHBG (Sex Hormone Binding Globulin)

 

2) A healthy, non-obese 25-year-old male only produces between 4-10mg of testosterone daily. These are what are known as 'physiological' levels of testosterone. In accordance with this fact, almost every post in this entire thread is recommending people to take supra-physiological doses of testosterone. There are some factors involved in which a person might temporarily take supra-physiological levels of testosterone but for the vast majority of people, taking supra-physiological doses of testosterone is incredibly bad for you.

 

3) The main side effects of TRT are increased levels of estradiol (estrogen) and high hemoglobin and hematocrit.  Exogenous administration of testosterone results in the testosterone being aromatized into estrogen. For years, many people on TRT have taken aromatase inhibitors (AI's) to manage their levels. This has now been determined to be extremely dangerous. AI's should only be used in very limited situations and only for a very limited time and as low-dose as possible. The safest and most efficient and healthy way to lower estradiol, hemoglobin and hematocrit levels is to increase the frequency of injections while reducing dosage. 

 

4) Besides being almost painless, subcutaneous injection is by far the most desirable delivery method of injectable testosterone. It is easy, quick, almost painless and results in much more stable serum levels of testosterone than by intramuscular (IM) injection.  

 

5) This idea of PCT or cycles of taking TRT is idiocy. TRT is for life. Not for short periods of time. 

 

6) If you take any form of testosterone without the supervision of an experienced TRT medical provider you are an extreme DUMBASS. 

 

7) If you are an extreme dumbass who is going to go ahead and take testosterone anyway, please do yourself a giant favor and read Jay Campell's book 'The Testosterone Optimization Therapy Bible: The Ultimate Guide to Living a Fully Optimized Life.'

 

Disclaimer and full disclosure notice: I am not associated with nor do I receive any financial profit from recommending Jay Campbell's book. I currently take daily, subcutaneous, physiological doses of testosterone cypionate, and HCG. I also take thyroid medications and DHEA supplements. I am under the supervision of a TRT medical professional from Defy Medical in Tampa, Florida.  If you live outside of Florida, or the US, you can consult with Defy Medical as a telemedicine patient. There are only a handful of medical professionals in the world that truly understand and know how to administer TRT therapy. For the record, your doctor isn't one of them. I am not financially associated with Defy Medical. 

Edited March 28, 2019 by TDCNINJA

[mokwit]

8 minutes ago, TDCNINJA said:

For years, many people on TRT have taken aromatase inhibitors (AI's) to manage their levels. This has now been determined to be extremely dangerous.

Would be interested in why it is "extremely dangerous" - I would guess you are referring to risk of osteoporosis from low estrogen.

[robblok]

22 minutes ago, mokwit said:

Would be interested in why it is "extremely dangerous" - I would guess you are referring to risk of osteoporosis from low estrogen.

The guy is first telling everyone to take tests and then calls AI's dangerous. Bit strange IMHO because if you were taken too many AI's then that would show in the testing.

I also don't understand the need of a dr once levels are stable and you keep doing your tests.

 

It does however require a lot of self study and half a brain, something many people are lacking.

Edited March 28, 2019 by robblok

[faraday]

#TCDNINJA

 

Hmm interesting post....

 

Why, if you are taking Testosterone using a TRT protocol, would you take HCG?

 

Ones 'balls' shouldn't shrink if your T level is physiologically normal surely?

 

 

[robblok]

2 hours ago, faraday said:

#TCDNINJA

 

Hmm interesting post....

 

Why, if you are taking Testosterone using a TRT protocol, would you take HCG?

 

Ones 'balls' shouldn't shrink if your T level is physiologically normal surely?

 

 

I am not sure about that, balls shrink because they are not used anymore (the test comes from outside is not produced in the balls).

 

I myself did not see my balls shrink it does not happen that much what I have read.

[eezergood]

2 hours ago, TDCNINJA said:

In the US, the three major laboratory corporations have all lowered their ranges for what is considered 'normal' testosterone levels. 

Western males today now have average testosterone levels that are 2-3 times lower than for a western male during WW2. 

I have to say that about 98% of the posts in this thread are giving completely inaccurate information about TRT (Testosterone replacement therapy)

With so many outright falsehoods posted in this thread where do I start. Let me just give some of the most basic tenants of TRT.

 

1) It is maddening that anyone would take testosterone without first checking the following:

• CBC (includes immune cells, red blood cells, and hematocrit)
• CMP-14 (Includes kidney and liver function, glucose and electrolytes)
• Lipid Panel (LDL, HDL, Triglycerides)
• Testosterone free and total (LC/MS assay with no upper limit)
• Estradiol, Sensitive (LC/MS assay)
• DHEA-sulfate (Dehydroepiandrosterone Sulfate)
• TSH (Thyroid Stimulating Hormone)
• Free T3 (Free Triiodothyronine )
• PSA (Prostatic Specific Antigen)
• SHBG (Sex Hormone Binding Globulin)

 

2) A healthy, non-obese 25-year-old male only produces between 4-10mg of testosterone daily. These are what are known as 'physiological' levels of testosterone. In accordance with this fact, almost every post in this entire thread is recommending people to take supra-physiological doses of testosterone. There are some factors involved in which a person might temporarily take supra-physiological levels of testosterone but for the vast majority of people, taking supra-physiological doses of testosterone is incredibly bad for you.

 

3) The main side effects of TRT are increased levels of estradiol (estrogen) and high hemoglobin and hematocrit.  Exogenous administration of testosterone results in the testosterone being aromatized into estrogen. For years, many people on TRT have taken aromatase inhibitors (AI's) to manage their levels. This has now been determined to be extremely dangerous. AI's should only be used in very limited situations and only for a very limited time and as low-dose as possible. The safest and most efficient and healthy way to lower estradiol, hemoglobin and hematocrit levels is to increase the frequency of injections while reducing dosage. 

 

4) Besides being almost painless, subcutaneous injection is by far the most desirable delivery method of injectable testosterone. It is easy, quick, almost painless and results in much more stable serum levels of testosterone than by intramuscular (IM) injection.  

 

5) This idea of PCT or cycles of taking TRT is idiocy. TRT is for life. Not for short periods of time. 

 

6) If you take any form of testosterone without the supervision of an experienced TRT medical provider you are an extreme DUMBASS. 

 

7) If you are an extreme dumbass who is going to go ahead and take testosterone anyway, please do yourself a giant favor and read Jay Campell's book 'The Testosterone Optimization Therapy Bible: The Ultimate Guide to Living a Fully Optimized Life.'

 

Disclaimer and full disclosure notice: I am not associated with nor do I receive any financial profit from recommending Jay Campbell's book. I currently take daily, subcutaneous, physiological doses of testosterone cypionate, and HCG. I also take thyroid medications and DHEA supplements. I am under the supervision of a TRT medical professional from Defy Medical in Tampa, Florida.  If you live outside of Florida, or the US, you can consult with Defy Medical as a telemedicine patient. There are only a handful of medical professionals in the world that truly understand and know how to administer TRT therapy. For the record, your doctor isn't one of them. I am not financially associated with Defy Medical. 

Well that was a nice piece of cut copy & paste...... 

 

[Ks45672]

4 minutes ago, robblok said:

I am not sure about that, balls shrink because they are not used anymore (the test comes from outside is not produced in the balls).

 

I myself did not see my balls shrink it does not happen that much what I have read.

I think ball shrinkage depends on dosage.... If you take 1gram a week you will feel as strong as a gorilla but more likely to shrink your nuts

[Ks45672]

12 hours ago, robblok said:

Are we talking peptides.. HGH or steroids here ?

I thought legally you would need a doctors prescription for any of them if your caught importing but I might be wrong

 

I only use locally sourced products when I'm in Thailand because I get good deals at the pharmacy I go to and they have everything I want anyway 

[TDCNINJA]

2 hours ago, mokwit said:

Would be interested in why it is "extremely dangerous" - I would guess you are referring to risk of osteoporosis from low estrogen.

Exactly. Dr. Rob Kominaiarek of Reneu health advises only to use AI's in circumstances where estrogen is not able to be controlled by dosage and frequency. AND, where the patient's estrogen levels are causing problems. Dr. Rob has seen countless cases of severe problems with bone density via bone scans for people on long terms AI use. 

 

Look, I'm not saying that there are not situations where AI's can help. I am saying, however,  that for most people, estrogen levels can be controlled without AI's by adjusting the dosage and frequency of injections.  

[TDCNINJA]

2 hours ago, faraday said:

#TCDNINJA

 

Hmm interesting post....

 

Why, if you are taking Testosterone using a TRT protocol, would you take HCG?

 

Ones 'balls' shouldn't shrink if your T level is physiologically normal surely?

 

 

I started taking HCG per my doctor at the same time I began TRT. Physiological doses of T can still cause testicular atrophy.

[TDCNINJA]

14 minutes ago, eezergood said:

Well that was a nice piece of cut copy & paste...... 

 

No, sir. That is not a cut and paste those my own words and thoughts. 

[TDCNINJA]

 

[robblok]

3 minutes ago, TDCNINJA said:

Exactly. Dr. Rob Kominaiarek of Reneu health advises only to use AI's in circumstances where estrogen is not able to be controlled by dosage and frequency. AND, where the patient's estrogen levels are causing problems. Dr. Rob has seen countless cases of severe problems with bone density via bone scans for people on long terms AI use. 

 

Look, I'm not saying that there are not situations where AI's can help. I am saying, however,  that for most people, estrogen levels can be controlled without AI's by adjusting the dosage and frequency of injections.  

Your contradicting yourself, first you talk about tests (these would show your E levels). I don't see why anyone (including me) would take anti E tablets if the estrogen was not shown to be above optimum levels (and of course too low is not good either but id assume if you do TRT you read up on things like that) 

 

I do everything based on my tests 

[TDCNINJA]

10 minutes ago, robblok said:

Your contradicting yourself, first you talk about tests (these would show your E levels). I don't see why anyone (including me) would take anti E tablets if the estrogen was not shown to be above optimum levels (and of course too low is not good either but id assume if you do TRT you read up on things like that) 

 

I do everything based on my tests 

I have no idea whatsoever what you are saying. Everyone needs to keep an eye on their estrogen levels. Levels can change. Health can change. My estrogen levels are currently at a level that my doctor approves. I still check them every 6 months when I do my labs. 

 

I will check my estrogen as well as my other labs for the rest of my life. I test those things that my doctor and other progressive, experienced TRT providers require their patients to test. 

 

The only way I would ever take an AI and the only reason that my doctor would put me on an AI is if I was not able to control my levels of estrogen (estradiol) via dosage reduction and increased injection frequency. And if he did put me on an AI it would be at the lowest possible effective dose and only for a very limited time. AI's are bad news. 

Edited March 28, 2019 by TDCNINJA

[Ks45672]

3 minutes ago, TDCNINJA said:

I have no idea whatsoever what you are saying. Everyone needs to keep an eye on their estrogen levels. Levels can change. Health can change. My estrogen levels are currently at a level that my doctor approves. I still check them every 6 months when I do my labs. 

 

I will check my estrogen as well as my other labs for the rest of my life. I test those things that my doctor and other progressive, experienced TRT providers require their patients to test. 

 

The only way I would ever take an AI and the only reason that my doctor would put me on an AI is if I was not able to control my levels of estrogen (estradiol) via dosage reduction and increased injection frequency. And if he did put me on an AI it would be at the lowest possible effective dose and only for a very limited time. AI's are bad news. 

Not necessarily, they have their place 

It depends a lot on body composition, when you get your body fat into the teens and you will notice less aromatization but everyone is on a different dose, diet and exercise and sleep routine so there is no set of compounds or dosages that will work for everyone

[TDCNINJA]

1 minute ago, Ks45672 said:

Not necessarily, they have their place 

It depends a lot on body composition, when you get your body fat into the teens and you will notice less aromatization but everyone is on a different dose, diet and exercise and sleep routine so there is no set of compounds or dosages that will work for everyone

Respectfully, I'll take Dr. Rob's opinion over yours.