4 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

There are no actual figures for Burka or niqab wearers in the UK, but the various organisations interested put the estimate at between 5,000 and 14,000 (source).

 

Which laws and which customs they are disrespecting by doing so?

 

In your opinion, are these people also disrespecting British laws and customs because of the way they dress?

You can see their faces!!!

2 hours ago, sambum said:

3 hours ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Apart from your ludicrous comparison with what ISIS do, the issue is not banning the Burqa, but a politician ridiculing women who choose to wear the Burqa.

Indeed the issue is a politician ridiculing women who choose to wear the burka (Or are told to wear the burka!) 

 

However, it is not a ludicrous comparison at all. As far as I know, there has been no moped crime carried out in London by burka wearers because that would immediately bring the blame down on Muslims, and Muslims would say that it was people trying to look like Muslims so that Muslims would get the blame (Ooops!) 

 What is your point?

 

That Muslims commit crime? Yes, some do. No one from the Muslim community in the UK has ever denied that. But people from all religions, or none, all ethnicities, all sexual preferences etc. commit crime.

 

That burka wearing women take their burkas off to commit motorbike crime so that Muslims don't get the blame? Not ludicrous, totally barmy.

 

2 hours ago, sambum said:

The fact is that for years ISIS forced women to  wear the burka, but now, even they realise that it is not a good idea! :-

 

"isis-bans-women-from-wearing-burkas-after-chiefs-attacked-by veiled assassins"

 

As I said to @vogie when he first brought this up

4 hours ago, 7by7 said:

ISIS are infringing on human rights in many ways; including terrorist murder!

 

Do you really want the UK to follow ISIS' example in anything?

BTW, that article is over two years old. How many murders, bank robberies, muggings, etc. have been committed in the UK by burka wearing women since then?

 

Oh, hang on; according to you they do commit crime, but take their burkas off and dress up as bikers in order to do so!

 

 

17 minutes ago, sambum said:

You can see their faces!!!

Didn't ask if you could see their faces.

 

They are not dressed according to any British custom that i am aware of!

 

Going to answer the questions?

 

Which British laws and customs are burka wearing women disrespecting?

 

In your opinion, are these Haredi men also disrespecting British laws and customs because of the way they dress?

 

9 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

But they are not dressed according to any British custom that i am aware of!

 

Going to answer the question?

 

Which British laws and customs are burka wearing women disrespecting?

 

See answer above - they are disrespecting me (and traditional British people) by not showing me their faces - I'm not going to repeat it again.

Anyway, we're getting nowhere with this, and it's my cocoa time! We can carry on back and fro tomorrow if you so wish but personally I think it's pointless. Good night!

 

 

13 minutes ago, sambum said:

See answer above - they are disrespecting me by not showing me their faces - a bit like not pointing your feet towards a Buddhist.

Anyway, we're getting nowhere with this, and it's my cocoa time! We can carry on back and fro tomorrow if you so wish but personally I think it's pointless. Good night!

 

 

Rather arrogant of you to declare that because you feel disrespected then the law and customs of the whole UK are also disrespected!

 

Particularly when the actual number of burka wearers in the UK are so low!

 

How do you feel about others whose faces you cannot see; crash helmet wearers, anti pollution mask wearers, even people on the train who don't lower their papers to show you their faces when you board? Are they also disrespecting you and therefore the law and customs of the UK by not showing you their faces?

 

Should everyone turn to face you as you pass, so you don't feel disrespected?

 

Enjoy your cocoa.

On ‎8‎/‎10‎/‎2018 at 6:35 AM, dick dasterdly said:

"A member said the 250 people would be affected in Denmark  which may be correct or not but lets use that as a pure number."

 

I wondered about that too, but couldn't be bothered at the time to point out that if only 2-300 women in Denmark wear the nikab - whereas (presumably) multiples of this number find it offensive for various reasons - why on earth should 99% (?) of the population be ignored to accommodate the 2-300?

 

Fear of.....

 

Tyranny of the majority (or tyranny of the masses) refers to an inherent weakness of majority rule in which the majority of an electorate can and does place its own interests above, and at the expense of, those in the minority. This results in oppression of minority groups comparable to that of a tyrant or despot, argued John Stuart Mill in his famous 1859 book On Liberty.

Potentially, through tyranny of the majority, a disliked or unfavored ethnic, religious, political, social, or racial group may be deliberately targeted for oppression by the majority element acting through the democratic process.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyranny_of_the_majority

 

It's laughable to use this argument really because it is well known to result in logical fallacies such as the slippery slope argument.

 

Such attire as mentioned is firstly a symbol of subservience and secondly a tool still used against women to deny them freedom. If it were not being used in such a manner then no issue would arise but it is, obviously. I think that what gets to most thinking people is that action to stop it is being promulgated as a ban when what it is in reality is a lifting of a ban. You 'a person' cannot use such clothing as a means to subjugate  women.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

7 hours ago, sambum said:

See answer above - they are disrespecting me (and traditional British people) by not showing me their faces - I'm not going to repeat it again.

Anyway, we're getting nowhere with this, and it's my cocoa time! We can carry on back and fro tomorrow if you so wish but personally I think it's pointless. Good night!

 

 

sorry that you feel disrespected

Cousin "it" is taking legal advice with a view to sue Boris the letter bomb is in the post?

12 hours ago, duanebigsby said:

You keep going on and on about full face crash helmets. Other than on the road with your bike, where are you trying to wear it?

Exactly.  Virtually nobody walks around in public wearing a full face crash helmet as it would look extremely odd - quite apart from being uncomfortable!

 

The point made about those wearing anti-pollution masks is a far more interesting IMO, as it does cover most of their face.  But at least there is an (arguably) good, practical reason for wearing them.

8 hours ago, 7by7 said:

There are no actual figures for Burka or niqab wearers in the UK, but the various organisations interested put the estimate at between 5,000 and 14,000 (source).

 

Which laws and which customs they are disrespecting by doing so?

 

In your opinion, are these people also disrespecting British laws and customs because of the way they dress?

Personally, I've nothing in particular against religious extremists wearing 'funny' garb (that doesn't hide their face) - other than it tends to alienate them from the rest of the population.

 

My problem with the nikab is that on top of the other points made in my first para. - there is no good reason for wearing it/it's only worn by females/it's representative of a misogynist culture.

Disgusting to equate Jewish gear to Wahabbi gear. It's the Wahabbis who are the existential threat to Jews (not Corbyn!).

 

Jews don't use their beliefs (daft as they are to me) as a justification to commit terrorist acts in the UK or Europe. 

 

The garb that started this thread is Wahabbi garb. When will the pseudo liberals get this simple point? Wahabbis gave you 9-11 and ISIS.

 

Ban it in the UK and follow the ban up with a review of all UK muslim "schools"; close down every single muslim "school" that has any trace of Wahabbi dogma (there are many), and send the Wahabbi imams back home after stripping them of British citizenship.

1 hour ago, dick dasterdly said:

Personally, I've nothing in particular against religious extremists wearing 'funny' garb (that doesn't hide their face) - other than it tends to alienate them from the rest of the population.

 

My problem with the nikab is that on top of the other points made in my first para. - there is no good reason for wearing it/it's only worn by females/it's representative of a misogynist culture.

I'd be curious to know how a full face veiled mother in non muslim countries explains to her daughter the good reasons that ground this free choice . 

9 hours ago, 7by7 said:

Rather arrogant of you to declare that because you feel disrespected then the law and customs of the whole UK are also disrespected!

 

Particularly when the actual number of burka wearers in the UK are so low!

 

How do you feel about others whose faces you cannot see; crash helmet wearers, anti pollution mask wearers, even people on the train who don't lower their papers to show you their faces when you board? Are they also disrespecting you and therefore the law and customs of the UK by not showing you their faces?

 

Should everyone turn to face you as you pass, so you don't feel disrespected?

 

Enjoy your cocoa.

"Rather arrogant of you to declare that because you feel disrespected then the law and customs of the whole UK are also disrespected!"

I did quote "me and traditional British people" in a previous post which you conveniently ignore, and call me arrogant.

My use of the word "disrespected" is a dig at the use of the word by Muslims and those of a P.C. nature who seem to  be offended by anything from a golliwog on a jam jar to a Union Jack on a lump of cheese, or a nativity play - but I suppose I should have made that more clear.

 

"Particularly when the actual number of burka wearers in the UK are so low!"  When you consider the rate that Muslims are increasing in the UK (and I could quote figures at you, but I assume that you will take my word for it?) that will naturally increase as well.

 

Regarding the rest of your comments re full face motor bike helmets. and anti pollution mask wearers, they are used for safety and health purposes, and as for people hiding their faces behind a newspaper, I think you are being a bit pedantic - they have to turn the page occasionally - or check if they are anywhere near their destination.

 

However, as I said in my previous post, I think our discussion has gone as far as it can, and any further comment will be pointless - basically I don't like people who cover their faces with a veil so I can't see them, and you don't mind, so as far as I am concerned the matter is  

 

Have a good day!  

 

On ‎8‎/‎8‎/‎2018 at 7:37 AM, RuamRudy said:

Another clear example of Johnson's innate racism. I will await the mass outrage of the press and the gammons as they condemn in the harshest possible terms his disgusting behaviour. I also fully expect every aspect of his public and private life past to be dredged up in a series of exposes over the next 6 months as the carefully planned narrative develops, although I would prefer that he is pilloried with objective examples - we have seen too clearly how the press manipulates things out of context or simply lies to fulfil their editorial objectives. 

"Another clear example of Johnson's innate racism".

You're suggesting that's a bad thing?

1 hour ago, Just Weird said:

"Another clear example of Johnson's innate racism".

You're suggesting that's a bad thing?

Yes

On ‎8‎/‎11‎/‎2018 at 9:00 AM, 7by7 said:

 Why would a Muslim Home Secretary and a Muslim mayor of London stop anyone expressing outrage over the misogyny of Haredi Jews?

 

Besides, that article was published in May 2015, when the Home Secretary was Theresa May and the Mayor of London was Boris Johnson; as far as I am aware neither are Muslims!

 

I have found claims and highly edited videos from far right and Islamaphobic sources about a woman being arrested in May after asking police to stop Muslims praying in Hyde Park; but nothing from a reliable source. It does seem strange that police would arrest anyone who reported to them that someone was carrying out a banned activity; all collective religious activity is banned from all royal parks (source). If she were arrested, she must have done a lot more than merely complain!

 

So you believe that because a particular style of dress reportedly offends a 'great number' of people in the UK we should act like one of the repressive regimes those same people regularly criticise and dictate to people, especially women, what they can and cannot wear?

 

Surely doing so makes us as bad as those repressive regimes?

At least … 

"Wife of jailed Saudi blogger Raif Badawi calls for burqa ban in Ontario. " As a refugee in Quebec and Canada I have noticed the fast growth of Islamist groups loyal to the Muslim Brotherhood, Hamas and Saudi clergy imposing the Burqa and enforcing Niqab on girls and women as political flags to mark jihadi territory.."

 

https://globalnews.ca/news/4307779/raif-badawi-wife-ensaf-haidar-burqa-ban/

islam hinders economic development, islam threatens society that is the title of a highly recommended book written by a politician thilo sarazzin who is a member of the German SPD 

 

WBR

roobaa01

Theresa May is facing a furious backlash from grassroots Conservative members and donors over the party's  "malevolent" and "discourteous" decision to investigate Boris Johnson over his burka comments.

One local association president said Mrs May was “at best an embarrassment, and at worst a humiliation for our great party and country”, while major donors said it was an “argument over relatively nothing”.

 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/08/11/burka-row-theresa-may-faces-furiousgrassroots-donors-backlash/

 

She's only making such a hoo-ha to deflect her weakness with the media and donors helping her do it. That much is obvious and already known but what is interesting that the same donors are now backing away because of mass negative views. 

 

13 hours ago, dick dasterdly said:

On ‎8‎/‎11‎/‎2018 at 2:25 PM, duanebigsby said:

You keep going on and on about full face crash helmets. Other than on the road with your bike, where are you trying to wear it?

Exactly.  Virtually nobody walks around in public wearing a full face crash helmet as it would look extremely odd - quite apart from being uncomfortable!

You can't spend much time in the UK!

 

Motorbike couriers, pizza deliverers etc. only take their helmets off if requested to do so as they enter the building they are delivering to. If not asked to remove their helmet, they don't.

 

13 hours ago, dick dasterdly said:

The point made about those wearing anti-pollution masks is a far more interesting IMO, as it does cover most of their face.  But at least there is an (arguably) good, practical reason for wearing them.

If you watch the videos of niqab wearers I posted earlier then the ladies in them say that they have a good reason for wearing them.

 

Not saying that I agree, and indeed in one of the videos an imam disagrees; but it is their choice.

13 hours ago, dick dasterdly said:

Personally, I've nothing in particular against religious extremists wearing 'funny' garb (that doesn't hide their face) - other than it tends to alienate them from the rest of the population.

 

My problem with the nikab is that on top of the other points made in my first para. - there is no good reason for wearing it/it's only worn by females/it's representative of a misogynist culture.

 

As said before, and proven with statements from the women concerned, most British women who wear a burka or niqab do so out their choice. Indeed, one of the women says that her daughters do not wear either and that she would never force them to.

 

Although, as I also said before, there is no doubt that some Muslim men do force their wives and daughters to wear one or the other. 

 

As for misogynist cultures, you obviously know nothing about Orthodox Jews!

 

I have already posted pictures of Orthodox Jewish women; some of whom wear burkas; did you miss them?

 

I have already posted a link to an article about Orthodox rabbis banning women from driving their children to school: did you read it?

 

This sign appeared in North London not long ago, until police removed it.

 

Of course, to brand all Jewish men misogynists, to brand Judaism as a misogynistic religion because of the actions of a few would be ridiculous and were I to do so I would rightly be branded anti-Semitic.

 

Yet making such accusations against all Muslim men, against Islam because of the actions of a few is deemed acceptable to many posters here.

12 hours ago, My Thai Life said:

Disgusting to equate Jewish gear to Wahabbi gear. It's the Wahabbis who are the existential threat to Jews (not Corbyn!).

 

Jews don't use their beliefs (daft as they are to me) as a justification to commit terrorist acts in the UK or Europe. 

 

The garb that started this thread is Wahabbi garb. When will the pseudo liberals get this simple point? Wahabbis gave you 9-11 and ISIS.

 

Ban it in the UK and follow the ban up with a review of all UK muslim "schools"; close down every single muslim "school" that has any trace of Wahabbi dogma (there are many), and send the Wahabbi imams back home after stripping them of British citizenship.

 Yet again, you blame all Muslims for the actions of a few.

 

Yet again you use the argument, if such can be called an argument, that "Some Muslims are terrorists, therefore all Muslims are terrorists." Only 3.8% of British Muslims are Salafi (Wahhabi), but you would probably say that they all are terrorists, or at least support Islamic terrorism.

 

Jews may not commit terrorists acts in the UK or Europe, but many would say the Israeli government does just that in Palestine; including Orthodox Jews:

 

8 hours ago, Opl said:

At least … 

"Wife of jailed Saudi blogger Raif Badawi calls for burqa ban in Ontario. " As a refugee in Quebec and Canada I have noticed the fast growth of Islamist groups loyal to the Muslim Brotherhood, Hamas and Saudi clergy imposing the Burqa and enforcing Niqab on girls and women as political flags to mark jihadi territory.."

 

https://globalnews.ca/news/4307779/raif-badawi-wife-ensaf-haidar-burqa-ban/

'Noticed' she says, 'noticed.'

 

I wonder how many of those women she has actually talked to; she doesn't say.

 

As shown earlier, many (most?) of the British women who wear a burka or niqab do so though their own choice; no-one has forced them to do so.

 

 

15 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

 

As said before, and proven with statements from the women concerned, most British women who wear a burka or niqab do so out their choice. Indeed, one of the women says that her daughters do not wear either and that she would never force them to.

 

Although, as I also said before, there is no doubt that some Muslim men do force their wives and daughters to wear one or the other. 

 

As for misogynist cultures, you obviously know nothing about Orthodox Jews!

 

I have already posted pictures of Orthodox Jewish women; some of whom wear burkas; did you miss them?

 

I have already posted a link to an article about Orthodox rabbis banning women from driving their children to school: did you read it?

 

This sign appeared in North London not long ago, until police removed it.

 

Of course, to brand all Jewish men misogynists, to brand Judaism as a misogynistic religion because of the actions of a few would be ridiculous and were I to do so I would rightly be branded anti-Semitic.

 

Yet making such accusations against all Muslim men, against Islam because of the actions of a few is deemed acceptable to many posters here.

You keep mentioning about Jews and other religions.  This topic is about women wearing a burqa.

 

If its escaped you attention.. it is not because they are Muslim... or any other religion.. its because it covers their entire faces and is offensive to many people, sexist, against womens rights, is a tool to control and treating women as inferior and as a commodity and could be a security risk.

 

It is culturally unacceptable and offensive for these to be worn.  

 

These women do not happily choose to wear them.  They have been raised, bullied and brainwashed since children in such a male dominated culture to accept it as a norm. 

 

If I was to force my children to walk about with a bag over their head when in public I rightly would be done for child abuse.  Religion does not come into it... the religion here is only being used as some excuse and cop out, because nowhere in that religious book does it tell women to wear such a costume.

 

You can defend it all you want... but its clear to most people that it is a kind of mental abuse these women are living with every day.  When you are at a stage you are so frighten of life, men, people who are not in your religion, and modern society in general, you have to walk around wrapped up in a black blanket something is seriously wrong.  

@jak2002003,

I am pointing out that it is not just Orthodox Muslim women who dress in extreme modesty; others do so too; especially Orthodox Jewish Women, many of whom also wear burkas; though few in the UK do, they mainly wear something akin to a hajib or chador at most; sometimes just a wig to cover their real hair. But they all wear clothing to cover themselves from the neck down.

 

I am also pointing out the hypocrisy of those who use the wo,men's rights argument to justify banning the burka and niqab, whilst at the same time ignoring the misogyny in other religions.

 

Are some Muslim men misogynistic? Yes. Are some imams? Yes. But most are not.

 

The exact same can be said of Orthodox Jewish men and rabbis; some are misogynists; most are not.

 

I have  shown that many (most?) British Muslim women who wear a veil do so of their own free will. Not because they are forced to by husbands or fathers, not because they are afraid of ' life, men, people who are not in your religion, and modern society in general,' but because they choose do do so for the same reason, for example, many Christians wear a crucifix, as an expression of their religious belief.

 

I am neither defending nor attacking what to my eyes is extreme religious clothing; whatever the religion. 

 

What I am arguing for is freedom of choice; a freedom many would deny Muslim women merely because they are Muslim. 

 

What you, and many other posters in this topic, seem to have forgotten is that by doing so I am actually in agreement with Boris Johnson; his article may have contained some unfortunate phrases; but in it he was arguing AGAINST a burka ban! I also agree with him that those wearing a burka or niqab look ridiculous, but that is their choice. I also believe, for one example, wearing one's jeans with one's arse hanging over the top looks ridiculous; but that is the choice of those who do so.

 

I believe the freedom of others overrides my 'right' not to be offended.

 

As for the security risk argument; I asked many pages ago if any burka wearing person had ever smuggled a bomb or weapon anywhere and used it for a terrorist attack in the UK, Europe, North America, Austarlai, any Western country because I can find no evidence of any such attack ; no one has answered; can you?

 

I also pointed out that the 7/7 bombers carried their bombs in rucksacks; should we ban those as well? Or only their use by Muslims?

 

 

 

7 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

 I am pointing out that it is not just Orthodox Muslim women who dress in extreme modesty; others do so too; especially Orthodox Jewish Women, many of whom also wear burkas; though few in the UK do, they mainly wear something akin to a hajib or chador at most; sometimes just a wig to cover their real hair. But they all wear clothing to cover themselves from the neck down.

 

I have also shown that many (most?) British Muslim women who wear a veil do so of their own free will. Not because they are forced to by husbands or fathers, not because they are afraid of ' life, men, people who are not in your religion, and modern society in general,' but because they choose do do so for the same reason many Christians wear a crucifix, as an expression of their religious belief.

 

I am neither defending nor attacking what to my, and it seems your, eyes is extreme religious clothing; whatever the religion. 

 

What I am arguing for is freedom of choice; a freedom many would deny Muslim women merely because they are Muslim.

 

What you, and many other posters in this topic, seem to have forgotten is that by doing so I am actually in agreement with Boris Johnson; his article may have contained some unfortunate phrases; but in it he was arguing AGAINST a burka ban! I also agree with him that those wearing a burka or niqab do look ridiculous, but that is their choice. I also believe, for one example, wearing one's jeans with one's arse hanging over the top looks ridiculous; but that is the choice of those who do so.

 

I believe the freedom of others overrides my 'right' not to be offended.

 

As for the security risk argument; I asked many pages ago if any burka wearing person had ever smuggled a bomb or weapon anywhere and used it for a terrorist attack in the UK, Europe, North America, Austarlai, any Western country because I can find no evidence of any such attack ; no one has answered; can you?

 

I also pointed out that the 7/7 bombers carried their bombs in rucksacks; should we ban those as well? Or only their use by Muslims?

 

 

 

"sometimes just a wig to cover their real hair" ? ?

Just now, sambum said:

"sometimes just a wig to cover their real hair" ? ?

 Strange, funny, odd to our minds, but true.

Hair Coverings for Married Women

Quote

Why most Orthodox women cover their hair, whether with wigs, hats or scarves.

 

2 hours ago, 7by7 said:

'Noticed' she says, 'noticed.'

 

I wonder how many of those women she has actually talked to; she doesn't say.

 

As shown earlier, many (most?) of the British women who wear a burka or niqab do so though their own choice; no-one has forced them to do so.

 

 

And again, 

" As a Muslim woman, I’d like to thank Boris Johnson for calling out the niqab"

https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/08/as-a-muslim-woman-id-like-to-thank-boris-johnson-for-calling-out-the-niqab/

https://www.thedailybeast.com/as-a-muslim-woman-i-support-angela-merkels-ban-on-niqabs-in-germany

 

An extensive expose, " Ban the burqa, the argument in favor  "

" The burqa is harmful not only to the wearer but to others as well. The sight of women in burqas can be demoralizing and frightening to Westerners of all faiths, including Muslims, not to mention secularists. Their presence visually signals the subordination of women. Additionally, the social isolation intrinsically imposed by the burqa may also be further magnified by the awkward responses of Westerners. Several Ivy League college students mentioned that classmates in burqas and dark, thick gloves make them feel "very sad," "pushed away," "uneasy about talking to them."

" https://www.meforum.org/articles/2010/ban-the-burqa-the-argument-in-favorBan the Burqa? The Argument in FavorBan the Burqa? The Argument in Favor

5 hours ago, jak2002003 said:

You can defend it all you want... but its clear to most people that it is a kind of mental abuse these women are living with every day.  When you are at a stage you are so frighten of life, men, people who are not in your religion, and modern society in general, you have to walk around wrapped up in a black blanket something is seriously wrong.  

 

If only there were something we could do.

 

 

3 hours ago, Opl said:

And again, 

" As a Muslim woman, I’d like to thank Boris Johnson for calling out the niqab"

https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/08/as-a-muslim-woman-id-like-to-thank-boris-johnson-for-calling-out-the-niqab/

https://www.thedailybeast.com/as-a-muslim-woman-i-support-angela-merkels-ban-on-niqabs-in-germany

 

An extensive expose, " Ban the burqa, the argument in favor  "

" The burqa is harmful not only to the wearer but to others as well. The sight of women in burqas can be demoralizing and frightening to Westerners of all faiths, including Muslims, not to mention secularists. Their presence visually signals the subordination of women. Additionally, the social isolation intrinsically imposed by the burqa may also be further magnified by the awkward responses of Westerners. Several Ivy League college students mentioned that classmates in burqas and dark, thick gloves make them feel "very sad," "pushed away," "uneasy about talking to them."

" https://www.meforum.org/articles/2010/ban-the-burqa-the-argument-in-favorBan the Burqa? The Arument in FavorBan the Burqa? The Argument in Favor

The Spectator has a history of publishing right wing anti Muslim rhetoric. The Middle East Forum and associated sources such as Daniel Pipes are well known right wing anti Muslim propagandists. Initially when reading the ME Forum article, was thinking fair enough, then the real agenda emerged; vilification.

 

Whilst I support the banning of Islamic full face coverings in the same manner as full face helmets, IMO content supporting total bans is faux outrage,  pragmatically will not stop abuse against women. Mostly just an excuse for further attacks, from the usual sources, against the Muslim community.