USA income affidavit

[JackThompson]

 

14 hours ago, tropo said:

if thousands of expats start leaving. I'm talking about expats that rent condos, not ones who own them... and I'm mainly considering areas where the density of expats is high (Pattaya) where there's already a glut of condos for sale and rent on the market.

Yes - exactly.  Immigration making staying in Thailand more difficult for under-50s has already contributed to a glut of empty units.  Then when the owners try to "short term" rent them, there are crackdowns on that (part of the TM-30 hassles). 

 

As a long-term condo-renter, I paid less rent for a better condo every year for the past several, before moving to the boonies.  So, it's already a downhill slide, and this will make it worse.  Those who bought a condo around the time when I first arrived must be ROI screwed, about now.

 

5 hours ago, namatjira said:

You people really don’t understand what’s going on, after much discussion they have decided they needed to fix up the long queues at some immigration offices.....too many people were complaining , something needed to be done .

this is the final solution.....the reasoning being if they queue from early morning to do even 90 day reports then they just might be telling little lies on their affidavits.......

Sounds to me like, in other words, "These people are coming here to avoid paying agents (to pay us extra), so Something Needs to Be Done About That.  What if we make income-letters/proof impossible?  How much more money would we get from agents?

 

5 hours ago, namatjira said:

good guys in broke guys out....all a matter of basic honesty.

It's a honest folks who will be going out.  The dishonest ones are already paying agents to fake the money, and immigration has no issue with that.

 

5 hours ago, namatjira said:

some will have to forego their 3 thousand baht condos

Lowest is around 4.5K Baht, that I ever saw - with no view, furniture, hot water, etc - at least in the areas where I lived (Jomtien and Pattaya).   Bangkok is generally higher.  Yes, one can "rent a room" for less, but the landlords double the electric-cost and water, so it works out about the same total mo-spend as a lower-end condo. 

 

That is after the prices fell every year for the last several, due to immigration making it more difficult for under-50s to stay.  When I first arrived prices were 1500 to 2000 Baht/mo higher, for the same quality.

 

5 hours ago, namatjira said:

..

and head back home to the comforts of their trailer parks.

Why would anyone return to the USA (trailer-park or otherwise), when they could live a much better life in dozens of other countries (several nearby) - whose governments aren't busy trying to de-employ their own citizens by kicking out the foreigners who are paying their salaries / keeping businesses open?  

 

In my book, Destination-USA ranks just above Saudi Arabia, North Korea, and similar.  The issues with immigration can be lousy, but at least I am left alone to enjoy life the rest of the time.  Same is true in most other nations where I have spent considerable time - don't bother anyone, and no one (including the police) bothers you.

[Leatherneck]

1 hour ago, marcusarelus said:

Who told you it was no longer sufficient?  That would be the main crux of the post eh? 

Immigration told my agent who told me prior to going in...and which was confirmed at immigration when I extended my visa. Immigration still wanted an affidavit along with the other "verification" documents that I've never had to provide during my previous 7 years here. My own impression (right or wrong) was that the principal evidence that immigration wanted was the copies of the bank documents and that the affidavit was basically useless (so why continue to require it).

[riclag]

On 10/24/2018 at 3:23 PM, Wake Up said:

This lady was a supervisor and seemed authorative and had a form she filled out while talking to me but as UJ says she is one supervisor and I really don’t think Thailand wants to get rid of guys like you. Maybe they will work it out and change things again once they think through all of this. I am curious if any other Americans got the same talk I did today at CW. 

If one has time to kill it would be easy enough to check at your friendly near by IO! Knowing that many IO's translate the rules differently . Just a thought!

[bwpage3]

On 10/24/2018 at 3:54 AM, Snow Leopard said:

Don't shoot me here but could you not transfer in 65K every month to one bank account. Withdraw it and then send it back out to where it came from 2 days later. Repeat monthly??? Take your bank book showing the amount coming in only. 

Transfer money is not free.

[Scott]

Off-topic posts and replies removed.  

[arithai12]

On 10/24/2018 at 3:12 PM, bluebluewater said:

I'm pretty sure my days here in Thailand are numbered after some 13 years.  Alas . . . .

I do not have 800K in a bank here nor am I willing to deposit that amount and I do not need 65K to live and I am also unwilling to bring that amount in.  The heck of it is that I have several million dollars in brokerage accts in the States.   I live quietly and modestly here and I think I am the very kind of guy that Thailand might want to have about.

 

My choice to NOT do those things and I'm not looking for sympathy.  It's early days yet so we'll all just have to see how it works itself out. 

I do not understand why you say "alas", it seems that if you will make the choice of leaving Thailand the 800k requirement is not a reason.

You are a millionaire who has a problem of principle in keeping 25k dollars in a bank account and spends much less than 65k baht per month in Thailand. Why would Thailand be interested in keeping you in particular?

 

[onera1961]

8 hours ago, thailand49 said:

Thai immigration, get your house in order I seriously doubt the people are inside immigration each year is running through all the pages on my passport. They already have boxes and boxes construed as wallpaper for years of asking for verification at Jomtien soon they will have to move to a larger building if a fire starts in their building all hell will break? 

I think instead of blaming TI, we should blame our embassies if they refuse to issue affidavit (I know BE is going to stop from Jan 1). Embassy can always outsource the verification to an home country private company for a fee. Banks in America give million dollars loans based on income verification. TI only want assurances that embassies are verifying your declaration in affidavit. 

[MyFriend You]

On 10/24/2018 at 9:12 AM, bluebluewater said:

I'm pretty sure my days here in Thailand are numbered after some 13 years.  Alas . . . .

I do not have 800K in a bank here nor am I willing to deposit that amount and I do not need 65K to live and I am also unwilling to bring that amount in.  The heck of it is that I have several million dollars in brokerage accts in the States.   I live quietly and modestly here and I think I am the very kind of guy that Thailand might want to have about.

 

My choice to NOT do those things and I'm not looking for sympathy.  It's early days yet so we'll all just have to see how it works itself out. 

Vietnam.............says it all.  You can live there fairly reasonable, a lot cheaper than Thailand, fair Visa laws, 90 reporting, but you should check in with local police station to let them know you live there, never any hassles, been investing in Vietnam since 2000 and its fine with me.  I also send a good amount of time in Thailand as I own  condo  -  nice change of pace.  Try it, you will be surprised.

[MyFriend You]

9 hours ago, onera1961 said:

Lying under oath can lead to criminal prosecution. If Thai immigration notifies US embassy that somebody has reported false incomes, they will be prosecuted in the US. 

I, solemnly swear................prosecuted to the full extent of the law.........

[blackhorse]

 
Why would anyone return to the USA (trailer-park or otherwise), when they could live a much better life in dozens of other countries (several nearby) - whose governments aren't busy trying to de-employ their own citizens by kicking out the foreigners who are paying their salaries / keeping businesses open?  
 
In my book, Destination-USA ranks just above Saudi Arabia, North Korea, and similar.  The issues with immigration can be lousy, but at least I am left alone to enjoy life the rest of the time.  Same is true in most other nations where I have spent considerable time - don't bother anyone, and no one (including the police) bothers you.

People on the income method don't have health insurance here. Most are just winging it. So yeah they are better off in their own nanny country when they have a full body stroke.

Thankfully oz issued a statement VERY quickly that nothing has changed however if it did and that's a BIG IF I would be back in oz in heart beat. Rent assistance, a higher pension, free meds, concession on all forms of travel and free Medicare.

In fact it would be cheaper than Thailand if one lived in a smaller seaside or country town

Ozzies saying they couldn't survive back home are just making excuses to stay in Thailand

[sirineou]

10 hours ago, worrab said:

I have retired here quite happily and I do not get 65k a month from my pension. Mind you without rent to pay, have own property, and living in the countryside I am comfortable.

 

I agree with you, I also have my own property   and car paid for in Khon Kaen , and when I am in Thailand I spend about 30k a month.

  I also think it is unfair that they don't include property in the calculus, clearly such property owning person does not have rent considerations and IMO should be credited the rent he would be paying if he did not own property, Lets say 15,000. as income.

such a provision could also induce people to own their own home and  promote investment in Thailand. a win win situation IMO 

But unfortunately the Thai government  places everyone in the same box and requires 65K from everyone.  And as such if one does not have a 65K income stream, one is not ready to retire in Thailand. There might be other countries where you would be but Thailand is not one of them,

If one was married one can get an extension to stay for 40k a month. (I am Married)  which is also counter intuitive IMO . One person is required to have 65k to live but Two people can live on 40K ?

  An extension to stay because of marriage, though the paperwork is more extensive,  is better IMO because it allows you the option to get a work permit. When I retire ,If I get bored I might volunteer and teach English.  

Of course for that you need a wife, and speak english LOL. 

 

[chicowoodduck]

When I hear it from the US Embassy I will believe it.....lol....????

[chicowoodduck]

1 hour ago, blackhorse said:

People on the income method don't have health insurance here. Most are just winging it. So yeah they are better off in their own nanny country when they have a full body stroke.

Thankfully oz issued a statement VERY quickly that nothing has changed however if it did and that's a BIG IF I would be back in oz in heart beat. Rent assistance, a higher pension, free meds, concession on all forms of travel and free Medicare.

In fact it would be cheaper than Thailand if one lived in a smaller seaside or country town

Ozzies saying they couldn't survive back home are just making excuses to stay in Thailand

It depends on what floats your boat.....the options are endless if you are in the know......just saying.....????

[JG27]

Following with interest, as I/we want to move to Thailand in a year or so. No doubt the rules will change again before then of course.

 

One query if I may...folks, and indeed I think the rules indicate an “income stream” of 65K p.m. 

 

Does this in reality mean a monthly, foreign sourced, transfer of funds, the origin of which is of no concern/interest to anyone, rather than it being “income earn’t" i.e. bank interest and the like before transferred to a Thai bank a/c ?

 

Cheers,John

Edited October 25, 2018 by JG27

[JLCrab]

1 hour ago, chicowoodduck said:

It depends on what floats your boat.....the options are endless if you are in the know......just saying.....????

Bank statements, deposit slips, ATM receipts, etc. how boring. I say bring your income affidavit and a Number 10 on the Richter scale Thai girlfriend to immigration and say that SHE is costing me almost 65K baht per month at the get go.

[Longcut]

2 hours ago, chicowoodduck said:

When I hear it from the US Embassy I will believe it.....lol....????

I just heard from a warden that an announcement is coming from ACS ( American Counselor Service) next week. 

Please don't shoot the messenger.

Edited October 26, 2018 by Longcut

[Chongalulu]

On 10/24/2018 at 3:23 PM, Wake Up said:

This lady was a supervisor and seemed authorative and had a form she filled out while talking to me but as UJ says she is one supervisor and I really don’t think Thailand wants to get rid of guys like you. Maybe they will work it out and change things again once they think through all of this. I am curious if any other Americans got the same talk I did today at CW. 

Being a supervisor and authorative in Thailand is not an indicator of knowledge (quite the opposite in many instances). The fact remains that the whole scenario is embroiled in confusion until official statements by Immigration department are made (if they ever are) ,giving the likes of this officer the opportunity to make it up as she goes along.

[Thaidream]

16 minutes ago, Longcut said:

I just heard from a warden that an announcement is coming from ACS ( American Counselor Service) next week. 

Please don't shoot the messenger.

Any insight as to what the announcement will be?

[Longcut]

7 minutes ago, Longcut said:

I just heard from a warden that an announcement is coming from ACS ( American Counselor Service) next week. 

Please don't shoot the messenger.

Let's just say for the sake of argument this is all true and the embassy stops issuing affidavit letters. I am wondering if the Embassy Outreach program will also become a thing of the past?

 Also, if expats start leaving because of the new rules will Thai immigration start closing offices around the country?

 Will we again have to travel a long distance to overcrowded immigration offices? I know it sounds bleak. But better to be prepared for the worse and to hope for the best. 

 

 

 

 

[Longcut]

5 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

Any insight as to what the announcement will be?

He stated that it is true and the embassy will stop issuing letters. That's all he would say for now. He has to attend some meeting and will be told more.

Edited October 26, 2018 by Longcut

[Thaidream]

13 minutes ago, Longcut said:

He stated that it is true and the embassy will stop issuing letters. That's all he would say for now. He has to attend some meeting and will be told more.

Please keep us posted if you can.  Thanks.

[ubonjoe]

14 minutes ago, Longcut said:

He stated that it is true and the embassy will stop issuing letters. That's all he would say for now. He has to attend some meeting and will be told more.

I know a (actually 3 of them) American Embassy Citizen Liaison Volunteer as wardens are called now and he got the exact same reply from the ACS to an email he sent as everybody else has. "“We are aware of the U.K. Embassy’s statement to the press. The U.S. Embassy’s current income affidavit policies can be found on our website".

 

 

[jimmyyy]

Well UbonJoe, i just spoke with a long time battle buddy at JUSMAG, he called over to the ACS spoke to the Person in Charge and was told NO CHANGES ARE COMING, CEASE THE RUMOR MILL.  They will continue to issue the letters.  Buddy says its a cash cow for the US Embassy, no way they are taking away the cash cow.  Its an integral part of the finances here in BKK.

[thailand49]

5 hours ago, onera1961 said:

I think instead of blaming TI, we should blame our embassies if they refuse to issue affidavit (I know BE is going to stop from Jan 1). Embassy can always outsource the verification to an home country private company for a fee. Banks in America give million dollars loans based on income verification. TI only want assurances that embassies are verifying your declaration in affidavit. 

I disagree, maybe you missed the point?  This process has been going on for a while. The requirement was outlined by the Thai immigration if there is a problem with the process like the hundred or thousand of overstayer now as they are doing raids I as an Embassy head would reconsider the process just as if I was a loan officer for a bank if the bank procedure produced a high volume of default loans. 

I haven't seen or read anything here in Thailand or heard one report that the current process is creating a problem.

[1FinickyOne]

14 hours ago, thailand49 said:

I fully understand your view and too know few if not many but are these older retirees with the very low income and often no saving causing a problem to the Thai government or causing a down turn in their economy that require their resources.  Are they walking into the Embassy getting the verification paying for the renewal then heading out to Sukhumvit with a cup and begging for money?  Are they robbing 7/11, gold stores and pulling scams on everyone?  

What is causing the concern that they are bringing up the subject is this the same objective when they go down and do their inspection on Walking St. looking for violation but everyone already know they are coming days in advance and once inspection is done with all the palms greased they get on National T.V. there isn't any hanky panky going on. Thailand enforcement for everything seem to be the honor system is this another case of that throw it out there make a bit of noise and everything back to business as usual?

not sure I understand your answer - - I never said they were making problems, just that it was pretty sad... which you can extrapolate out to poverty in general. Maybe even sadder in USA... I have a friend 68 yrs old who I suspect might have become homeless and too embarrassed to connect w/any old friends.. 

[malagateddy]

As a Brit..I wish to say that I sincerely hope that the USA and the OZ Embassies continue with their respective letters for their respective expats.
It's an utter disgrace imo that the UK Embassy will not revert to the Oz Stat Dec method.
I feel very sorry for the UK expats who will now struggle to survive/live in Thailand with their families.

Sent from my SM-G7102 using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[RichardColeman]

15 hours ago, Esso49 said:

If you have been living in Thailand as you say for a number of years, have a Thai wife and Family and still consider that the "UK" is your home, then you should return to the UK as "home is where you make it" not where you are born, and if you feel that living in Thailand for a few years with wife and family is not really home I hope, really hope, that when you drag them back to the UK, then after a couple of years they do not have the mentality that you currently have now regarding Thailand, insofars as them likewise thinking that where they were born is their home. Good luck and best wishes.

yet to meet any thai person that wants to move back to thailand when living in europe. 

[Joe Mcseismic]

For all those who say nothing has changed. True, except for one thing.

Why did Thai immigration hold a meeting for embassy representatives in the first place? What's the reason?

Why did they ask the British embassy to verify more thoroughly the income that is covered by the embassy letters?

Could it be that they are starting to realise that the letters from the embassys verify nothing?

[ubonjoe]

8 minutes ago, Joe Mcseismic said:

Why did Thai immigration hold a meeting for embassy representatives in the first place?

Did they? The UK embassy is the only one that has said that as far as I know. Perhaps it was only them in attendance.

[Pib]

1 hour ago, jimmyyy said:

Well UbonJoe, i just spoke with a long time battle buddy at JUSMAG, he called over to the ACS spoke to the Person in Charge and was told NO CHANGES ARE COMING, CEASE THE RUMOR MILL.  They will continue to issue the letters.  Buddy says its a cash cow for the US Embassy, no way they are taking away the cash cow.  Its an integral part of the finances here in BKK.

Just as additional crossfeed for other listening in, under federal law funding for many of the services provided by U.S. embassies/consulates "is fee-based."  If no fees charged, many services would not be available.    Embassy operations gets different pots of money....some are appropriated by Congress but others pots of money come strictly from fees. 

 

Fees that fund the manpower positions, pay the salaries/benefits, pay the electric bills, rent, etc., of lot of folks with the American Citizens Services (ACS) that take passport/visa applications and a whole variety of documents like income affidavits.   Without these fees there would not be as many people at ACS to accomplish certain services required of American citizens and non-citizens. Even some services for non-citizens such as issuing documents Thais need to temporarily or permanently go to America.

 

To get an idea of how fees fund a major portion of embassy/consulate operations take a lot at below Federal Register 2018 link announcing a fee increase for certain consulate services...and just below the link is a partial quote from that does a good job of summing up why the fees are needed.

 

https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2018/01/31/2018-01809/schedule-of-fees-for-consular-services-department-of-state-and-overseas-embassies-and

 

Partial Quote from above link....CA stands fro Consular Affairs...and continued issuing of the income affidavits definitely serve the the interests of U.S. citizens living in Thailand.

Quote

The revenue from retained consular fees fund CA's domestic and overseas operations and consular-related programs. These operations protect the lives and serve the interests of United States citizens and strengthen U.S. border security.