We have no committee anymore but management does not care.

[KittenKong]

 

Our "Board" says : we are not existing anymore and as normal owner we will not see the details. 

You can demand to see it: it is your building and your money. But if the management company wont show you then you dont have many options apart from complaining to the Land Office about them.

[KittenKong]

 

Can the developer decide which company manage us ????

Only by virtue of the large number of votes he holds, which would be enough to carry any vote in his favour. The answer to that is to disallow his votes entirely due to outstanding debts.

[lkn]

 

And again, how exactly should the committee members do that if they dont know the contact details of co-owners and if the JPM and/or management doesn't want to help them?

The OP has not given us a lot of details, what he has told us is that the committee members do not want to continue being committee members because they apparently have issues with the manager/management company.

 

Therefore the proper thing for them to do is to explain the situation to the co-owners and then let the co-owners make a decision about how to proceed (which could mean new management company or new committee), and this would normally be done by arranging an EGM.

 

Our OP is a co-owner, so step one would be for him to get this point across to the committee members.

 

You make the assumption that the committee has no way to call for an EGM; the OP does not indicate that this is the problem. Rather, the OP wants to call for an EGM himself, but the manager/management company says there is no justification for that, since there is still a registered committee of 3 members and an AGM will be held in 3-4 months.

[KittenKong]

 

Therefore the proper thing for them to do is to explain the situation to the co-owners and then let the co-owners make a decision about how to proceed (which could mean new management company or new committee), and this would normally be done by arranging an EGM.

That will only work if they can get the developer's votes disallowed as I explained. Otherwise the developer will outvote them in any meeting.

 

I'm still interested in learning how you think they can call a legal EGM if management wont organise it or even provide contact details for co-owners, as I think it would bordering on impossible.
It is for this reason that I think they would probably be better off just waiting for the AGM, at which they should also have the benefit of seeing the audited accounts which will not be available if they call an EGM now.

 

Holding an EGM now will cost money, and the AGM will still have to be held and paid for early next year, and it doesnt sound as though this building has money to burn. Unless, as I mentioned, co-owners suspect that management is doing such a bad job that they need to be replaced urgently.

[lkn]

 

That will only work if they can get the developer's votes disallowed as I explained. Otherwise the developer will outvote them in any meeting.

From what the OP is writing, it’s not clear that this is a fight with the developer.

 

The core complaint from OP is that there is no committee to control management.

 

 

I'm still interested in learning how you think they can call a legal EGM if management wont organise it or even provide contact details for co-owners, as I think it would bordering on impossible.

The legal issue is not a problem, 2 of the 3 registered committee members are within their right to call it.

 

As for whether or not it is bordering on impossible to send out invitations to your neighbours with which you share a facebook group with and regularly meet at the pool, you sure give up easy!

 

 

Unless, as I mentioned, co-owners suspect that management is doing such a bad job that they need to be replaced urgently

The OP came here asking for advice because he wants something to happen now.

 

Your reply to me does nothing to help the OP and is just a rehash of another thread.

[scorecard]

11 hours ago, KittenKong said:

Excellent. You are entitled to know who has outstanding bills, and if your rules say that co-owners with outstanding bills cannot vote then you have the developer completely over a barrel. The only difficulties will be getting the proper documentation of the debts - and it sounds like your management company may not give it to you - and getting the JPM and/or the management company to disallow the developers votes. If they wont do it then you can complain to the Land Office about this in writing and they may do something about it.

 

Has the developer officially handed over the building to the owners?

 

I recall this was a stumbling block in a building where a friend bought a condo (in Bkk). A group of owners gathered on a Saturday morning and sent other members around the building with a notice to every unit that a meeting was gathering in the lobby 'right now'. 

 

A very large % of owners (who were home) went down to the meeting. The meeting was initially moderated by an owner, a well known Thai man who was a retired respected gov't official, he went thru some steps to eventually get an 'interim recognised group of people with legitimate interest' elected. He declined to be a member of the committee but offered to give any advice that he could and/or to research the appropriate laws etc.

 

New committee chairman asked for discussion about a proposal to insist the owner or senior rep., of the development company come. That was passed, development company contacted and The adult son of the developer came.

 

Developers son was an unpleasant thug who immediately started to threaten the owners and ordered the office staff to refuse to comply with any requests etec., from the interim committee / owners etc.

 

The retired gov't official guy privately called a respected very senior cop who was on the committee of another condo building (close by) and was well aware of the appropriate laws and regulations.

 

The snr. cop came quickly, he listened then called someone senior in another gov't agency aligned to condo stuff, he came quickly. 

 

Developers son now threatening the snr. cop, the other snr gov't guy. Within an hour the developers' son was ordered to leave the building and get various documents and be back within 2 hours, if no show, charged with non-compliance with a police order.

 

Within another 2 or 3 days all documentation was processed as needed, ownership now transferred to the owners. New committee got on with managing the building to the satisfaction of all owners. 

 

 

 

 

 

[KittenKong]

1 hour ago, lkn said:

From what the OP is writing, it’s not clear that this is a fight with the developer.

 

The core complaint from OP is that there is no committee to control management.

 

The legal issue is not a problem, 2 of the 3 registered committee members are within their right to call it.

 

As for whether or not it is bordering on impossible to send out invitations to your neighbours with which you share a facebook group with and regularly meet at the pool, you sure give up easy!

 

The OP came here asking for advice because he wants something to happen now.

 

Your reply to me does nothing to help the OP and is just a rehash of another thread.

The OP specifically pointed out that the developer is telling the office what to do, and that the office is listening to the developer. So the developer would indeed appear to be a part of the problem. Certainly as majority voter he must be part of the problem or presumably he would already have stepped in to improve things.

 

Whilst some co-owners may indeed be round the pool on a daily basis, EGM notifications should be posted to all co-owners, including those who live abroad. I defy anyone to do this without having a complete and up-to-date list of co-owners and addresses. And only the office or JPM can supply that list. There is also the question of getting people to actually attend or to send proxies.
Invitations will be posted automatically in good time to all co-owners for their next AGM which is only a few months away, and which should be expected by all co-owners, and so that would be the obvious time to deal with the problems, unless there is some urgent need which does not appear to be the case.

[KittenKong]

1 hour ago, scorecard said:

Has the developer officially handed over the building to the owners?

As you point out, this is a common problem in new buildings. But as the building in question has already had an initial meeting, and has elected a committee, and is moving towards its second meeting, the handover must have been done.

[lkn]

40 minutes ago, KittenKong said:

The OP specifically pointed out that the developer is telling the office what to do

He said that he heard from a former board member that developer advices the management company, but he didn’t know if it was true.

 

And who else should advice the management company when the active committee members have left the building and the remaining ones claim to have resigned?

 

As stated in a previous comment, the committee members need to explain the problems to the co-owners.

 

Right now they lack proper information about what is going on, including our OP.

 

First step toward a solution is finding out what actually goes on, no-one has said the developer is against having an active committee, and the developer would not be able to suppress an active committee, despite having the largest ratio of common property.

 

I know you would rather capitulate and claim that TIT and everything is corrupt and the Condo Act anyway assigns supreme power to the JPM, and it’s logistically impossible for anyone but a JPM to call for a legal AGM/EGM, etc.

 

But your cynicism and bickering does not help our OP.

 

OP need to go to the remaining committee members, tell them they have a responsibility toward the co-owners, if they feel that it is futile to continue under the current conditions, they should call for an EGM and make proposals to change the situation.

 

Nothing ventured, nothing gained!

 

At least if I was OP, I would go to committee members, the developer, management company, and JPM, and find out what the actual issue is.

 

Possibly it can even be solved by mediation, as it is really in no-one’s interest to start to fight about everything.

 

Perhaps the OP can elaborate a bit about the issues he sees.

 

Also whether there is the required transparency, for example that profit and loss statements are posted monthly, so that the co-owners can follow the spending.

 

[Chris Po]

I organized with another owner here a "inofficial" owners meeting today, 5.12. - we invited whom we can reach by mail, FB or personal and we want to discuss how to go on. 

 

The plan is to set up a document/paper which we give the manager which tells her what we expect that she will do or what we dont want her to do ( as she thinks she can change parking rules for example and fine the owners) . 

 

This should be a kind of ultimatum to her.  If she will understand ? 

Let´s see ! 

I will report . 

 

Somebody asked if we have help from the developer .  For sure not, ....i dont know if it is ok to mention the name, so i dont do. 

 

Thank you for all advices, 

Chris

[KittenKong]

9 hours ago, Chris Po said:

I organized with another owner here a "inofficial" owners meeting today, 5.12. - we invited whom we can reach by mail, FB or personal and we want to discuss how to go on. 

 

The plan is to set up a document/paper which we give the manager which tells her what we expect that she will do or what we dont want her to do ( as she thinks she can change parking rules for example and fine the owners) . 

 

This should be a kind of ultimatum to her.  If she will understand ? 

This is a possible temporary solution that may tide you over to the next GM.
You should calmly but firmly point out to the manager and all other staff that it is your building and they work for you, not the other way round. This is so even if there isnt a functioning committee. And if she wants to keep her job beyond the next GM she would be well advised to pay attention to what co-owners want.
In my experience many Thai staff are under the mistaken impression that they are in some way necessary or important, and that the world revolves around them.

 

You do still need to ascertain whether you are dealing with a building manager, or a management company or a JPM. You still dont seem to understand the difference between these three entities and you need to get this very clear in your mind, as do all other co-owners, before your next GM.

 

And make sure that you know exactly whether the developer has unpaid common fees as this will be vital to you being able to achieve anything at a GM, regardless of when it is held. Without that knowledge you could be outvoted at every turn and could end up with a committee and JPM entirely in the developer's pocket.
But try to avoid showing your hand too early: if the developer finds out what you doing and pays his bills then you may also find it hard or impossible to win any vote.

 

9 hours ago, Chris Po said:

Somebody asked if we have help from the developer .  For sure not, ....i dont know if it is ok to mention the name, so i dont do. 

Do not mention it.

[Chris Po]

Good evening ! 

 

As the Office did not tell the land office that the last 3 committee members resigned the 3 committee members elected in a meeting with 8 owners 3 new members. 

Tomorrow we will go to the office and tell them about this. 

We will see if they accept. 

But as they wrote me 1 week ago that we have still a committee and the Land Office also thinks this, ....we will see what happens. 

Greetings 

Chris 

[KittenKong]

1 hour ago, Chris Po said:

As the Office did not tell the land office that the last 3 committee members resigned the 3 committee members elected in a meeting with 8 owners 3 new members. 

There is no requirement to inform the Land Office about resignations.
If following a resignation the number of committee members is still 3 or more then nothing happens.
If following a resignation the number of committee becomes less than 3 then an EGM must be called immediately to allow co-owners to vote for a replacement. The result of that vote must be registered with the Land Office within one month.

It is NOT legal for committee members and/or any number of co-owners to appoint replacement committee members outside of a GM. Committee members can only be appointed by co-owner vote at a properly arranged GM, with due notice being given to all co-owners so that they can attend and vote if they wish.

 

However, as I pointed out, committee members who resign still remain committee members until they are replaced by co-owner vote at a GM.

 

So what your office told you is correct.

 

 

 

Edited December 5, 2018 by KittenKong

[Chris Po]

It is difficult here. 

There where 5 members. One sold condo and moved away and resigned. 

The second is going to sell and resigned. 

2 live outside Thailand , the resigned per mail and the last one resigned personal in office. 

Therefore i wrote in the first post that we have no committee anymore. 

But when i asked the office about an EGM they said we have a comittee but this guys make nothing because the said we resigned.  The Landoffice has still 3 on the list while these 3 said we resigned already. 

The office pretends to have a committee but as the committee makes nothing it is a pigstable here. 

What to do ? 

[KittenKong]

As I tried to explain to you: resigning only takes effect when the member is actually replaced by co-owner vote. Until then they are still technically committee members, and I think that they should accept that and try to get the office to take care of the building better. It is after all still their building (apart from the one who has already sold up). And you would think that the one who wants to sell would be more interested in getting the building to appear nice to a prospective purchaser, wouldn't you?
Either way, walking away is just a cop-put as far as I'm concerned and I have no respect for those who do it.

 

But if so many have resigned that you have less than three left, then by law you should have an EGM and vote for some replacements.
It's sounding more and more like your office is just trying to put this off till your AGM next year rather than have the trouble and expense of arranging an EGM before then, which does make a little sense.

 

If all your committee members have left the building I wonder who is signing your cheques now?

[Chris Po]

The cheques :  An interesting question. The only committee member came today to the meeting said that the money from the  sinking found is still in the hand of the developer, the maintanance fee goes to the bank account of the developer. 

He said, that the Condominium has not his own bank account. 

I can not control if this is right or not. 

There are a lot of things to fix, some things are done, the cheap one you can see- now they put white color everywhere ,....many important things , maybe more expensive , are not fixed. 

When i came here i want to enjoy and a "peaceful" life here, since some weeks i start to study the Condominium Act,.....talk with people about the problems here.  I am from Vienna, English is not my mother language, i speak some Thai,....so i am thankful for all information here. 

Chris 

 

[Chris Po]

On 12/4/2018 at 1:44 PM, lkn said:

He said that he heard from a former board member that developer advices the management company, but he didn’t know if it was true.

 

And who else should advice the management company when the active committee members have left the building and the remaining ones claim to have resigned?

 

Quote

 

The committee resigned because they say it makes no sense to spend energy , because the developer tells the office what to do and even they want something, Office did not care.   One day the Chairman gave up, his second sold and the rest was without plan. 

 

[Chris Po]

5 hours ago, KittenKong said:

There is no requirement to inform the Land Office about resignations.
If following a resignation the number of committee members is still 3 or more then nothing happens.
If following a resignation the number of committee becomes less than 3 then an EGM must be called immediately to allow co-owners to vote for a replacement. The result of that vote must be registered with the Land Office within one month.

It is NOT legal for committee members and/or any number of co-owners to appoint replacement committee members outside of a GM. Committee members can only be appointed by co-owner vote at a properly arranged GM, with due notice being given to all co-owners so that they can attend and vote if they wish.

 

However, as I pointed out, committee members who resign still remain committee members until they are replaced by co-owner vote at a GM.

 

So what your office told you is correct.

 

You tell me that if the numbers of committee members is under 3 the Office /JPM must make an EGM. 

Than you wrote that even they resign they are still committee members. 

So how can they get under 3  ?? 

English is not my motherlanguage, so maybe i missunderstand now . 

Greetings

Chris

 

 

[KittenKong]

6 hours ago, Chris Po said:

You tell me that if the numbers of committee members is under 3 the Office /JPM must make an EGM. 

Than you wrote that even they resign they are still committee members. 

So how can they get under 3  ?? 

Look at it this way: as long as you still have three or more committee members then nothing needs to happen, regardless of how many people have resigned. Those people who have resigned will be replaced at the next GM, and until then they are still committee members and could withdraw their resignation and continue to act as committee members.

 

But if so many resign that there are less than three left then a meeting has to be held immediately to at least get the number back up to three. But until they are replaced the ones who have resigned are still technically committee members.

 

It's Thai logic and does not bear close examination.

[KittenKong]

7 hours ago, Chris Po said:

The cheques :  An interesting question. The only committee member came today to the meeting said that the money from the  sinking found is still in the hand of the developer, the maintanance fee goes to the bank account of the developer. 

He said, that the Condominium has not his own bank account. 

That seems all wrong. If you have had your first meeting and have selected a committee and a JPM then you should also have opened a bank account and sorted out the sinking fund, and your building should have its own accounts etc.

 

I imagine that the developer is doing it that way so as to wriggle out of paying the common fee for unsold units.

[KittenKong]

7 hours ago, Chris Po said:

When i came here i want to enjoy and a "peaceful" life here, since some weeks i start to study the Condominium Act,.....talk with people about the problems here. 

"Wanting a peaceful life" is the number one reason I have heard from people submitting their resignations from committees. I must have heard it a dozen times or more. The number two reason is "it's impossible to deal with this management". I've heard that one a dozen times too.

Few people realise just how bad Thai management often is, and how much effort is involved in being a proper committee member.
One thing is for sure: if every little detail isn't checked then someone, somewhere, will be turning it to their advantage.

[smutcakes]

27 minutes ago, KittenKong said:

"Wanting a peaceful life" is the number one reason I have heard from people submitting their resignations from committees. I must have heard it a dozen times or more. The number two reason is "it's impossible to deal with this management". I've heard that one a dozen times too.

Few people realise just how bad Thai management often is, and how much effort is involved in being a proper committee member.
One thing is for sure: if every little detail isn't checked then someone, somewhere, will be turning it to their advantage.

Few people also dont realize how stupid and unsuitable some Committee Members are, despite them thinking they know everything about anything.

[lkn]

8 hours ago, Chris Po said:

The cheques :  An interesting question. The only committee member came today to the meeting said that the money from the  sinking found is still in the hand of the developer, the maintanance fee goes to the bank account of the developer. 

 He said, that the Condominium has not his own bank account. 

 I can not control if this is right or not. 

Please ask management who is your JPM.

 

Then ask the JPM to get the monthly profit and loss report. This is required to be posted at the building’s bulletin board: section 36 (5), so possibly this is already available to you.

 

Understanding your building’s finances is crucial. You should also look at the budget passed on last AGM.

 

8 hours ago, Chris Po said:

 There are a lot of things to fix, some things are done, the cheap one you can see- now they put white color everywhere ,....many important things , maybe more expensive , are not fixed. 

From your posts here, it’s difficult to assess what sort of actual issues your building has.

 

It could be that the repairs are expensive so the management company does not feel they should spend money on this when it is not in the budget, it can be that they consider it defects that the developer should fix, and they have submitted claims to the developer, maybe they don’t have the money (because developer doesn’t pay common fee?), or maybe they don’t consider them serious issues worth fixing (look at how many defects goes unfixed in your typical Thai building).

 

It sounds to me like a lot of your information is second hand, you really need to get to the source and you need to understand the finances of the building. It could be that everyone is paying their common fee but there is just no money left for repairs because developer set the management fee too low at the initial AGM (not uncommon).

 

Of course it could also be that there is corruption, that management is in cahoots with the developer, etc.

 

As alluded to in a previous comment, my building wasn’t being properly run when I bought my condo; it was all due to incompetence, but you can’t fix the problem before you properly understand it.

 

One example of this is that our building manager never lasted for more than 1-2 months. I learned that our JPM was explicitly asking for 20-25 year old girls in the job advert and paid them 12,000 baht/month.

 

I am sure he thought that the owners appreciated interacting with a young girl each time there was an issue, but we got rid of the gender and age requirement, asked to attend the job interview, and said we would have no problem paying a higher salary for someone with experience.

 

Our next hire has so far lasted for 2 years and the guy does a phenomenal job (and we have since changed the JPM).

[lkn]

31 minutes ago, smutcakes said:

Few people also dont realize how stupid and unsuitable some Committee Members are, despite them thinking they know everything about anything.

So true, and also people’s belief that because the Thai minimum wage is around 9,000 baht/month, that is what you should pay your staff, so you hire 5 unqualified people at 9,000 baht/month and complain that they don’t do anything and that all Thais are lazy, instead of hiring two qualified people at 22,500 baht.

[KittenKong]

1 hour ago, lkn said:

So true, and also people’s belief that because the Thai minimum wage is around 9,000 baht/month, that is what you should pay your staff, so you hire 5 unqualified people at 9,000 baht/month and complain that they don’t do anything and that all Thais are lazy, instead of hiring two qualified people at 22,500 baht.

Our manager is paid a lot more than that (not even counting all his unofficial backhander income, which is huge) yet that doesnt seem to stop him from standing around with his thumb up his backside all day.

Our office and maintenance and cleaning staff are also paid way above average for their job, and they are also perfectly happy to do nothing all day.

 

How qualified do you need to be to push a broom around anyway?

[KittenKong]

2 hours ago, lkn said:

One example of this is that our building manager never lasted for more than 1-2 months. I learned that our JPM was explicitly asking for 20-25 year old girls in the job advert and paid them 12,000 baht/month.

 

I am sure he thought that the owners appreciated interacting with a young girl each time there was an issue,

More likely that the JPM appreciated interacting with a young girl.

 

Also the younger and more stupid the staff, the easier it is to get them to pay the JPM a bribe in return for being hired. Endless scams.

[KittenKong]

2 hours ago, smutcakes said:

Few people also dont realize how stupid and unsuitable some Committee Members are, despite them thinking they know everything about anything.

I dont mind people who think they know everything as it isnt usually very hard to prove them wrong, especially here.

What I dont like with most committee members here is their thirst for power and inability to see beyond the most pointless and insignificant issues.

[lkn]

22 minutes ago, KittenKong said:

Our office and maintenance and cleaning staff are also paid way above average for their job, and they are also perfectly happy to do nothing all day.

Sounds like the committee has no idea about hiring; not unsurprising, this is not easy, and if you have no idea of how to actually run/maintain a building, do accounting, etc. then the task is only made harder.

 

In such case, I would recommend that the building goes with a proper facility management company, both OCS and G4S have been recommended to me, and it sounds like your building already pays what such company would charge.

 

Another approach is to visit a building you know is being properly run, and then ask who manages it.

 

Personally I prefer having the staff work directly for the co-owners, as it’s easier, more flexible, and possibly also cheaper (compared to a *proper* management company), but it does require a competent committee, just as running a business with staff requires a component general manager.

 

[lkn]

53 minutes ago, KittenKong said:

How qualified do you need to be to push a broom around anyway?

Our cleaners do a lot more than pushing a broom around.

 

If your cleaners are doing nothing, make a task list, possibly have sheets around the building where they must write the time of when they last completed the subtasks for that section, randomly inspect the work, give them warnings if the quality is not good enough, and terminate them after repeat warnings.

 

This is just about managing your staff, and this problem exists in all countries.

[lkn]

54 minutes ago, KittenKong said:

I dont mind people who think they know everything as it isnt usually very hard to prove them wrong, especially here.

Yes, I am sure you find it easy to prove that all the other committee members know nothing, unlike yourself, who knows everything, yet live in a building where JPM is in complete control and staff does nothing ????