Does being rejected for an extension make it dicier to then go to an agent

[Jingthing]

3 minutes ago, madmen said:

Dont want to get off topic to far.. suffice to say lower Sukhumvit was ground zero
Apart from a few stalls still there pushed up against walls 95‰ are gone.

Writing on the wall?

[Olmate]

29 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

I never said a new O-A (from home country) but that would be an option as one path to start over. I think the more common start over choice is getting a new 90 day O visa in either a neighboring nation or as part of the two step process in the Thailand with the first step a conversion of an entry stamp or tourist visa to a 90 day O. 

Yes all possible but cumbersome,home country still my advice of those.          Now what would be the case if you actually put the question to the IO rejecting your initial extension..Would it be advisable to see one of the agents re assisting in my case Sir? Can you recommend one?

[Jingthing]

4 minutes ago, Olmate said:

Yes all possible but cumbersome,home country still my advice of those.          Now what would be the case if you actually put the question to the IO rejecting your initial extension..Would it be advisable to see one of the agents re assisting in my case Sir? Can you recommend one?

In my case O-A would be a nightmare so that's really a matter of personal circumstances. It's really not correct to suggest O-A vs. O in a neighboring country or here is the best choice for all.  For some O-A is best and for others not. 

 

On the latter point, I think in general the rejecting officer would tell people you are going to need to start over with an O (or O-A which they aren't likely to mention as that's from far away). 

 

Personally I wouldn't dare to ask that question in that situation. It seems to me too in your face. Corruption is supposed to be discreet. 

Edited January 29, 2019 by Jingthing

[ravip]

What are the major nationalities and what are the minor nationalities?

Who does the sorting of the nationalities and on what criteria?

Do people of major nationalities sort the help of dubious agents when they fail to achieve their target in the legal method?

[Olmate]

6 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

In my case O-A would be a nightmare so that's really a matter of personal circumstances. It's really not correct to suggest O-A vs. O in a neighboring country or here is the best choice for all.  For some O-A is best and for others not. 

 

On the latter point, I think in general the rejecting officer would tell people you are going to need to start over with an O (or O-A which they aren't likely to mention as that's from far away). 

 

Personally I wouldn't dare to ask that question in that situation. It seems to me too in your face. Corruption is supposed to be discreet. 

Discreet but close at hand to most district offices and always willing to assist in my experience! Anyway it will be up to each to decide .

[Jingthing]

14 minutes ago, ravip said:

What are the major nationalities and what are the minor nationalities?

Who does the sorting of the nationalities and on what criteria?

Do people of major nationalities sort the help of dubious agents when they fail to achieve their target in the legal method?

I really meant major in this context and nationalities with significant expat populations in Thailand. That's all. For example in that sense the U.K. would be more "major" than Denmark. Objectively major nations in the world like Brazil would not be major in this context as there are clearly not many Brazilian expats in Thailand. 

[mercman24]

i was chatting to 4 farangs a few months ago, and every single one had used agents for years, at a cost from 10,000 to 14,000. to them, and not one of them had much of an income.

[Jingthing]

5 minutes ago, mercman24 said:

i was chatting to 4 farangs a few months ago, and every single one had used agents for years, at a cost from 10,000 to 14,000. to them, and not one of them had much of an income.

Yeah, it's popular. 

Isn't income is irrelevant I think with the agent applications.

Aren't they generally bank method "seasoned" applications when done that way?

Remember with a bank method application the required income is zero baht.

That's without corruption and also obviously with as well. 

That's zero baht monthly, and zero baht annually. 

[indepth]

Nobody except immigration can answer your question.  As you canseeby all the comments,except one, " in my opinion, I think, maby, possibly in the future , etc". The only comment that has any validity is by Ubon Joe on page one. 

[garyk]

2 hours ago, Jingthing said:

Assuming you don't have an embassy letter from last year for an income method, so too late for that.

 

Sure thing --

800K in a Thai bank account seasoned for two months for the first extension, and three for subsequent

 

Full income method --

Start importing at least 65K from abroad into a Thai bank account. Every month. Start now. Make sure there are codes in your bank book showing foreign imports.

 

This is a new method without embassy letter. Enforcement realities not yet clear. Normally it should show monthly going back 12 months but a "leniency memo" suggests to officers they can accept fewer then 12 months the first year only. 

 

OR

 

Combo method without embassy letter

I won't even suggest guidelines for that. I can't read the minds of immigration and they haven't either. So that would be much less certain than full income without embassy letter, at this point it time anyway.

No, I had the embassy letter from last year, as a matter of fact I just got my one year extension of stay with no problems what so ever.

That was a couple of weeks ago, all I wanted to know was what my options were for 2020?

Although I am heading out in a couple of weeks and don't plan on coming back any time soon. It is still in my best interests to know what I need if I decide to extend another year.

The guy in charge was not having any of the combo method when I asked, but here in Thailand things change daily... 

I will keep abreast of things here on TV. But, Thailand just shit in its mess kit as far as I am concerned... 

Unless you have a family, or some other situation holding you in Thailand, Retirement extensions from new comers will hit an all time low in the coming months , years. Thailand will hammer the hanger owners, with hoop after hoop IMO..  Being here for years and reading threw these threads just shows what a dog and pony show this is for the retiree!

Not worth the hassle for retiree's.

 

 

Edited January 29, 2019 by garyk

[onera1961]

1 hour ago, Jingthing said:

It's really not correct to suggest O-A vs. O

Where can you get an O for retirement (not Thai family) in neighboring countries? What are the requirements? Do they want to see money in the bank (or "income letter' if available). Are these Os multiple entry for one year, leaving every 90-day?

 

[lamyai3]

One of the aspects of the agent option is that it includes the perfectly legal act of a senior IO waiving the three month seasoning. It doesn't necessarily imply that someone doesn't have the 800000, they may have it overseas but have failed to bring it over for seasoning for whatever reason (in the hypothetical example here, a failed attempt to submit proof of income documents, most likely due to missing a month or two of payments or dropping below the 65k or something similar).

 

So if a rejection is simply seen as a failed submission on a given day, it looks much more benign. Falling back on an agent could be easily be explained away as having the money elsewhere but failing to import it in time, and therefore reapplying with the appeal to a senior officer to waive seasoning it. The money is legitimately in the bank account briefly via a short term loan. Convoluted logic, sure - but a legitimate legal loophole engineered by the Thais, not a scam by foreigners. 

[Jingthing]

5 minutes ago, onera1961 said:

Where can you get an O for retirement (not Thai family) in neighboring countries? What are the requirements? Do they want to see money in the bank (or "income letter' if available). Are these Os multiple entry for one year, leaving every 90-day?

 

I am only talking about single entry O visas. Just so you have an O in your passport so that you can then apply for a new retirement extension. That can be done IN Thailand as well. Last I checked Penang consulate (not KL embassy) and Vientiane were the popular places. Seek more current info as I don't have current info on those or on other neighboring embassies/consulates or what their current requirements are. There are periodic dedicated threads about such things.

Edited January 29, 2019 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

2 minutes ago, lamyai3 said:

One of the aspects of the agent option is that it includes the perfectly legal act of a senior IO waiving the three month seasoning. It doesn't necessarily imply that someone doesn't have the 800000, they may have it overseas but have failed to bring it over for seasoning for whatever reason (in the hypothetical example here, a failed attempt to submit proof of income documents, most likely due to missing a month or two of payments or dropping below the 65k or something similar).

 

So if a rejection is simply seen as a failed submission on a given day, it looks much more benign. Falling back on an agent could be easily be explained away as having the money elsewhere but failing to import it in time, and therefore reapplying with the appeal to a senior officer to waive seasoning it. The money is legitimately in the bank account briefly via a short term loan. Convoluted logic, sure - but a legitimate legal loophole engineered by the Thais, not a scam by foreigners. 

Yeah, tell it to the judge.

I'm wondering if you actually believe what you just wrote, but in any case, congrats on your rationalizing skills. It's what makes us human. 

[JackThompson]

Re - agents ...

1 hour ago, Jingthing said:

let's face it, almost everyone that does except the painfully naive lacks innocent intent

I would have agreed a couple years ago.  After my experience with a legit-extension, I now believe the reports here of people unable to do things honestly in-person, to spite having every requirement met.  And many who eventually get it done, but after 3+ trips to immigration with new extra-requirements added on previous trips, may not want to go through that again.

 

1 hour ago, Olmate said:

Yes all possible but cumbersome,home country still my advice of those.          Now what would be the case if you actually put the question to the IO rejecting your initial extension..Would it be advisable to see one of the agents re assisting in my case Sir? Can you recommend one?

Depends entirely on the office and IO.  Some deny, stack up a list of "extra" or modified requirements, then suggest an agent to "help you with the paperwork" - without even being asked.  Others would probably act offended, and it might even cause a later attempt via an agent to be blocked, because they suspect you are trying to catch them.

[lamyai3]

2 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Yeah, tell it to the judge.

I'm wondering if you actually believe what you just wrote, but in any case, congrats on your rationalizing skills. It's what makes us human. 

Part of the joy of living here is it's possible to entertain two entirely opposing points of view simultaneously. You can call it a scam if you choose to, or you can call it a special appeal to a more senior authority. My view on it is expressed in my final sentence - convoluted logic, but a loophole nonetheless, and legal. 

[yodsak]

2 hours ago, madmen said:

Nothing lasts forever and thailand continues to develop. Who would have though they would outlaw foot path stalls?
But they did

When they do eventually ban agents there won't be any notice.

If not when.     

[Nielsk]

9 hours ago, youreavinalaff said:

Go to your immigration office beforehand. Ask them what they want. Problem solved.

 

 

They want prove of 800.000 baht on your  Thai bankbook. And if You can't come up with that, the problem is not solved  ????

[lamyai3]

27 minutes ago, Nielsk said:

They want prove of 800.000 baht on your  Thai bankbook. And if You can't come up with that, the problem is not solved  ????

Unless the law is changed, the problem is solved as things stand at the present time. They wrote the statutes on seasoning, including the one allowing it to be waived. 

[Golden Triangle]

The agent that I used said that it's possible to do 60 days prior to the expiry date of the extension.

[Jingthing]

42 minutes ago, Nielsk said:

They want prove of 800.000 baht on your  Thai bankbook. And if You can't come up with that, the problem is not solved  ????

Apparently agents "solve" that problem every day! 

[skatewash]

4 hours ago, Jingthing said:

I don't ever want to use an agent. I don't wish to be involved in corruption if I can help it. Personally, I will continue to do the 800K bank method and not even bothering structuring monthly imports. I had been planning to switch to the combo method with embassy letter this year but as I won't be able to get an embassy letter, I'm watching what will happen with enforcement on such applications. If the reports are very encouraging, then I may start structuring monthly imports for a later application. 

As I said in the O.P. this is only an academic question for me.

I can imagine lots of people preparing for an income (including combo) method without embassy letter totally legitimately being told we're not accepting those or too bad, during one month the import code was domestic, or 100 other technical "reasons" to reject. Then such people will be in a bad place. Too late to do the bank method seasoned so they could then try to start over with a new O (not even possible for everyone) or look for an easier out, an agent application. So I was curious how that might be seen at immigration, a recent rejection and then magically a totally different kind of application using an agent. 

Maybe I'm missing something...  When I go to do my retirement extension in Phuket the IO carefully checks my application, sometimes sending me out for additional copies, etc., all before he asks for my 1,900 application fee.  In other words, he's checked it and found it acceptable before it's actually accepted for further processing.  I guess what I'm saying is that I wouldn't expect to be rejected after my application has been accepted for further processing.  Granted the initial examiner is not the officer who actually approves my application, but honestly, if it gets by this front-line guy I'm pretty confident it will be approved by the senior official.  If it were rejected by the senior officer it would basically mean that he and the lower level officer disagreed over something (or the lower-level officer made a mistake).  Not saying that can't happen, but it would seem to be a very rare occurrence.

Here's an example of how I think it works.  An applicant is coming in using the new rule about having monthly deposits and wants to use the combo method.  The front-line officer sees some problem about the application (say the money-in-the-bank was not fully seasoned properly) in the front-line officer's opinion.  He might even check with his higher-up if he's unsure about his interpretation.  My understanding is that he explains the situation to the applicant and gives the applicant his application back and says the application in its current state will not be accepted.  All this before the applicant has ever been charged the 1,900.  Seems to me that the applicant can decide to fix the deficiency (if it's possible) or to use some other method, or to even use an agent.  His application wasn't formally rejected but the IO simply wouldn't accept it for further processing (basically implying that if you go ahead with the application in its current state it's very likely to be rejected formally).  Anyway, this is how I think it works.

 

To get a formal rejection, in my opinion and experience, would require the front-line IO to think your application will be approved if he submits it up the chain of command and be surprised when it comes back unapproved.  In other words, although it passed the front-line IO's interpretation of the rules it somehow failed the ultimate approver's expectations.  I can't see this happening a lot.

 

Even if you are formally rejected, I'm not sure it would mean that you couldn't make another application if your evidence changed, method used changed, or you went the agent route.

[Searat7]

5 hours ago, madmen said:

Dont want to get off topic to far.. suffice to say lower Sukhumvit was ground zero
Apart from a few stalls still there pushed up against walls 95‰ are gone.

70% of the stalls in Silom are gone too

[NoshowJones]

12 hours ago, quandow said:

I have heard stories of an agent that has been doing this for years. He said it's still business as usual. Of course, this is illegal and I would NEVER recommend such an act.

Things that are "illegal" in Thailand don't always matter. Everyone should just do what is best for them.

[moontang]

Was it Vientiane, where applicants got rejected, when they were suspected of using an agent?  So, I agree, that the entire agent thing could end abruptly.  Like mandatory registration and licensing of agents.

[balo]

To answer your question : If you want to use an agent do it as the first option , not second option.

 

Because it will always work, I have never heard of anyone over 50 being denied visas based on retirement. As long as they pay the fees. 

 

You can call it illegal all you want , but if you ask the agent , they will tell you it's 100% legal. Up to you as they say. 

 

   

Edited January 29, 2019 by balo

[sead]

No.

It's their job to make things easier. If anyone tells you that you should come to them first then change agent. 

 

[Scouse123]

16 hours ago, Jingthing said:

Nobody seems to have any actual information regarding my specific question.

It is not about using agents in general. There have been numerous topics about that before.

 

It's about whether if you did a recent application that was rejected, would that make using an agent more of a risk or not? Presumably immigration would have a record of a recent rejection and then soon after there would be this agent application using a different method.

 

I can't be bothered reading the entire thread as it's fairly late and I am tired, so maybe it has already been answered to your satisfaction.

 

I would definitely tell the agent that I had been rejected and be totally upfront. These guys are working from within the system so will know the ways to circumvent any rejected application.

 

Let's face it, these guys playing the system are there for the specific purpose of getting extensions and visas for people who cannot do it under their own steam due to whatever reason. That is why these guys charge a fee for this as well as the Immigration shave offcut.

[farangx]

4 hours ago, balo said:

To answer your question : If you want to use an agent do it as the first option , not second option.

 

Because it will always work, I have never heard of anyone over 50 being denied visas based on retirement. As long as they pay the fees. 

 

You can call it illegal all you want , but if you ask the agent , they will tell you it's 100% legal. Up to you as they say. 

  

The IO having checked my paperwork add an extension stamp in my passport and signed it.  Then directed me to the next table to have my photo taken, "you collect tomorrow" he said. Don't know what he will do if the extension was denied, rip that page out of the passport?

 

[SamuiGeezer]

 

Quote

 

This is an academic question that I've been wondering about that I think may have more relevance for more people in this new era of embassy letters having been cut off for some major nationalities (and potentially more to come). 

 

I'm speaking of income applications (and also combo ones) attempted without embassy letters. There is a lot of uncertainty about their enforcement as they are so new and we're getting mixed messages from the front lines, especially for combo ones.

 

So thus this topic.

 

Suppose you file an application for an income method (or combo) without an embassy letter and for whatever reason it is rejected. Perhaps you are told you needed to do a full bank seasoned application instead but so sorry you're now too late.

 

So what to do?

 

Try to start all over of course if you can with a new O visa (major PITA)

 

(OR)

 

Go to an agent that can hook a brother up with an 800K bank application seasoned in a way that isn't at all Kosher, but heck, some people seem to have been doing it that way for years and keep saying people that don't are uptight fools that don't understand the "real" TIT. So what's your hangup?

 

So my 65,000 baht question here is -- would doing an agency application with all its real and insinuated non compliance be riskier or even impossible if they have a recent record of a rejected but legitimate application attempt (income method without embassy letter)? 

 

I've never read anyone ask that question here before. So here it is. I'm asking for my Aunt Fanny in Dubuque.

Edited 22 hours ago by Jingthing

 

 

People that use agencies are normally trying to avoid complying with the rules, seems like that is what you are trying to do?