U.S. says 737 MAX safe to fly after Ethiopia crash, Boeing shares dip

[webfact]

U.S. says 737 MAX safe to fly after Ethiopia crash, Boeing shares dip

By Aaron Maasho, Duncan Miriri and David Shepardson

 

Airplane engine parts are seen at the scene of the Ethiopian Airlines Flight ET 302 plane crash, near the town of Bishoftu, southeast of Addis Ababa, Ethiopia March 11, 2019. REUTERS/Tiksa Negeri

 

GARA-BOKKA, Ethiopia/WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The United States told airlines it was safe to fly 737 MAX 8 planes on Monday as investigators found two black box recorders that will help piece together the final moments of an Ethiopian Airlines jet before it plunged to the ground on Sunday.

 

China and Indonesia grounded their fleets of 737 MAX 8 aircraft earlier on Monday, citing safety concerns, contributing to a drop in Boeing Co shares that wiped billions of dollars off the market value of the world's biggest plane maker.

 

Late on Monday, the U.S. Federal Aviation Administration issued a "continued airworthiness notification" to assure operators of the plane that it was safe to fly. It said it was collecting data on the crash and keeping in contact with international civil aviation authorities and would take immediate action if it identified any safety issues.

 

Southwest Airlines Co, which operates the largest fleet of 737 MAX 8s, said it remained confident in the safety of all its Boeing planes even as it received a rush of queries from customers wanting to know if they were booked to fly on a 737 MAX 8.

 

"Our customer relations team is responding to these customers individually, emphasizing our friendly, no-change fee policy," the No. 4 U.S. airline said in a statement.

 

Investigators in Ethiopia found two black box recorders early on Monday that will help piece together the final moments of the plane before it plunged, trailing smoke and debris, and crashed killing 157 people. The disaster came just months after a jet of the same model came down in Indonesia killing 189 people.

 

The discovery of black box recorders means the cause of the crash may be quickly understood, as long as recordings are not damaged, although it typically takes a year for a full detailed investigation to be completed.

 

Boeing Chief Executive Dennis Muilenburg said he was confident in the safety of the 737 MAX in an email to employees which was seen by Reuters.

The planemaker, the airline and its insurers face big claims after the crash, industry sources said. The insured value of the plane itself was likely around $50 million (£37.8 million).

 

On top of that, Boeing may face lawsuits from victims' families in the United States, where legal compensation payments for people killed in plane crashes could run around $2 million to $3 million per person, depending on the law applied, compared to about $200,000 in Ethiopia, according to Justin Green, a New York-based aviation lawyer who has represented families in cases against Boeing.

 

Boeing declined to comment on its insurance cover.

 

The company's share price briefly had its biggest one-day drop since the attacks of Sep. 11, 2001, falling as much as 13.5 percent early on Monday on fears that two crashes in such a short time could reveal flaws in the new plane.

 

Some investors saw that dip as an opportunity to buy Boeing shares, which have tripled in value over the past three years, sparking a recovery. The shares closed down 5.3 percent at $400.01. They hit a record high of $446 last week.

 

'SMOKE AND SPARKS'

The Ethiopian Airlines 737 MAX 8 plunged into farmland minutes after take-off from Addis Ababa for Nairobi on Sunday.

 

"The plane was very close to the ground and it made a turn. We looked and saw papers falling off the plane," Malka Galato, the farmer whose land the plane crashed on, told Reuters.

 

"Cows that were grazing in the fields ran in panic ... There was smoke and sparks coming from the back of the plane."

 

The plane tried to climb but failed, then swerved sharply trailing white smoke and objects including clothes before crashing, said farmer Tamirat Abera.

 

The victims came from more than 30 countries, and the United Nations said they included 21 members of its staff. The UN had earlier said 22 of its staff were on board.

 

The 737 line, which has flown for more than 50 years, is the world's best-selling modern passenger aircraft and viewed as one of the industry's most reliable.

 

The new MAX 8 variant, with bigger engines designed to use less fuel, entered service in 2017. By the end of January this year, Boeing had delivered 350 of the new jets to customers, with another 4,661 on order, and they could become the workhorses for airlines around the globe for decades.

 

Various worried nations took swift action after the crash.

 

Ethiopian Airlines, which has four other 737 MAX 8 jets, said it was grounding them as a precaution. China also ordered its airlines to suspend their 737 MAX 8 jets.

 

Noting that the accidents involving newly delivered planes had both taken place shortly after take-off, the Civil Aviation Administration of China (CAAC) said it would notify airlines when they could resume flying the jets, after contacting Boeing and the U.S. Federal Aviation Administration (FAA).

 

China has been asserting its independence as a safety regulator as it negotiates mutual safety standard recognition with regulators in the United States and Europe, Western industry sources say.

 

The crash may scupper a potential commitment by China to buy more Boeing-made aircraft as part of a deal being negotiated to end a months-long trade war between China and the United States.

 

Indonesia, where a Lion Air 737 MAX 8 went down in October, said it would temporarily ground the model for inspection.

 

Graphic showing flight of Ethiopia Airlines flight 302 -

 

 

MOURNING

At the crash site, local villagers watched men in Red Cross jackets and masks picked through a large crater, stacking clothes in a heap and wrapping corpses in white body bags.

 

The smell of jet fuel mixed with burned flesh hung in the air. Another heap contained twisted green-and-yellow metal from the fuselage. A lone engine with dents around the edges and several damaged tyres lay nearby.

 

The dead included aid workers, doctors, professors of literature and botany, a law student, a newly wed woman, a father soon expecting a child, and a couple who just had a baby.

 

In Nairobi, a major hub for aid workers and diplomats, a summit opened with a moment of silence and tears for the U.N. members killed. In New York, the 15-member U.N. Security Council also stood to remember the dead.

 

"Our colleagues were women and men - junior professionals and seasoned officials - hailing from all corners of the globe," U.N. Secretary-General Antonio Guterres said. "They all had one thing in common - a spirit to serve the people of the world."

 

Ethiopian Airlines said its pilot Yared Getachew, a dual Ethiopian-Kenyan national, had a "commendable record" and more than 8,000 hours of flying experience.

 

The airplane, received in November 2018, had flown more than 1,200 hours, and it had returned from Johannesburg earlier on Sunday, Chief Executive Tewolde GebreMariam said.

 

The flight had unstable vertical speed after take-off, the flight tracking website Flightradar24 tweeted. The Sweden-based service said the jet climbed almost 1,000 feet (305 m) after taking off from Addis Ababa, a hot and high-altitude airport whose thinner air requires extra effort from an aircraft's engines.

 

It dipped about 450 feet before rapidly climbing another 900 feet until the point where satellite tracking data was lost.

 

(Additional reporting by Maggie Fick, Katharine Houreld and Hereward Holland in Nairobi, Stella Qiu in Beijing, Jamie Freed in Singapore, Bernadette Christina Munthe in Jakarta, Josh Horwitz in Shanghai, Sanjana Shivdas in Bengaluru, Stephanie Nebehay and Michelle Nichols in New York; Writing by Andrew Cawthorne and Katharine Houreld; Editing by Peter Graff and Bill Rigby)

 

-- © Copyright Reuters 2019-03-12

[DoctorG]

Bit rash of FAA to declare the planes as safe when the investigation has not yet begun, especially as the pilot reported difficulties and witnesses saw bits falling off before the actual crash. Have we had the Lion Air investigation result yet?

[OJAS]

17 minutes ago, DoctorG said:

Bit rash of FAA to declare the planes as safe when the investigation has not yet begun

Indeed, one has to seriously wonder whether the FAA's declaration was as a result of their having received a suitably-stuffed brown envelope from Boeing...

[newnative]

31 minutes ago, DoctorG said:

Bit rash of FAA to declare the planes as safe when the investigation has not yet begun, especially as the pilot reported difficulties and witnesses saw bits falling off before the actual crash. Have we had the Lion Air investigation result yet?

     Totally agree.  At this point they don't know if the planes are safe.  They don't know what caused the first crash.  They don't know what caused the second crash.  What they do know is both planes were the same new model and the crashes happened in good weather shortly after take-off.  The jury is still out on the verdict of safe or unsafe until both investigations are closed.

[Thunder26]

Tell that to the people who died. That's more than 300 in 5 months. It is hardly safe!

[robblok]

1 hour ago, DoctorG said:

Bit rash of FAA to declare the planes as safe when the investigation has not yet begun, especially as the pilot reported difficulties and witnesses saw bits falling off before the actual crash. Have we had the Lion Air investigation result yet?

That is the American way, money first safety later besides it did not happen in the US.

 

This is real premature, investigation not done yet, sounds a lot like the US helping out an US company. Then they find it strange that people don't trust the USA that much anymore.

[metisdead]

An offensive post has been removed. 

[smedly]

59 minutes ago, newnative said:

     Totally agree.  At this point they don't know if the planes are safe.  They don't know what caused the first crash.  They don't know what caused the second crash.  What they do know is both planes were the same new model and the crashes happened in good weather shortly after take-off.  The jury is still out on the verdict of safe or unsafe until both investigations are closed.

I definitely would not be comfortable boarding one of these aircraft right now

[neeray]

2 hours ago, Cryingdick said:

You will see in another thread that I have complete adoration for Boeing as my father in law was a pilot. 

This thread isn't about your father in law. It's about 157 people who lost their lives and about the safety of a certain model aircraft.

Besides, just because your father in law was a pilot doesn't warrant complete adoration for Boeing.

Try telling that to the families of the deceased.

[Mattd]

2 hours ago, DoctorG said:

Bit rash of FAA to declare the planes as safe when the investigation has not yet begun, especially as the pilot reported difficulties and witnesses saw bits falling off before the actual crash. Have we had the Lion Air investigation result yet?

It is, IMO, very rash and premature to declare the planes safe.

Almost certainly the cause of this tragic crash and the Lion air tragedy are one and the same, the similarities between the two cannot be pure coincidence.

Time and thorough investigation will tell, it appears that it is something to do with the anti-stall system, which automatically puts the plane in to a dive if it senses an imminent stall, which is fine, if you have enough altitude to play with.

It has been reported that a lot of airlines / pilots were not aware of this anti stall system, which was introduced as a consequence of Boeing having to reconfigure the position of the engines from previous models, which in turn changed the dynamics of the aircraft, the FAA were convinced by the manufacturer that the aircraft did not need full re-certification, using previous certification of the 737.

The European certifying bodies rejected this at first, but were persuaded to accept it by the US Government. 

The 737 MAX series was a rushed attempt by Boeing to compete with the A320 NEO series and possibly there were some short cuts taken that, in hindsight, should not have been.

Apparently there have been changes made whereby the pilots can override the anti stall feature, I'd imagine that any pilot flying a 737 MAX will now be very aware of how this can be done, so sad that it has taken two fatal crashes and the loss of 346 lives. RIP.

Edited March 12, 2019 by Mattd

[Vacuum]

4 hours ago, webfact said:

The discovery of black box recorders means the cause of the crash may be quickly understood, as long as recordings are not damaged, although it typically takes a year for a full detailed investigation to be completed.

But still they say they are safe to fly.

 

4 hours ago, webfact said:

The United States told airlines it was safe to fly 737 MAX 8 planes

 

[Nurseynutcase]

First of all my sympathies to the bereaved of all the nationalities that died in these tragic accidents.

 

I am sure someone will correct me if I am wrong but I do believe that after the Paris Concorde disaster the American aviation federation banned the use of all concordes as unfit to fly.  This was after the first and only accident involving concorde which was shown to be caused by debris on the runway puncturing one of the wings.  So I am somewhat at a loss to understand why Boeing insists it is still safe to fly the 737 MAX which is also backed by the American Airlines.

[Rimmer]

Multiple posts discussing when to buy shares leading to baiting and bickering have all been removed

[neeray]

Here's what really counts. Not the dollars involved!

 

What was supposed to be a dream March break trip to Kenya for the Brampton family ended tragically when the aircraft crashed minutes after takeoff near Addis Ababa, killing 157 people, including 18 Canadians. Manant Vaidya’s sister Kosha Vaidya, 37, her husband, Prerit Dixit, 45, their daughters, Ashka Dixit, 14, and Anushka Dixit, 13, and his parents Pannagesh Vaidya, 73, and Hansini Vaidya, 68, were among the victims.

Manant Vaidya will never again hear the angelic voice of his 14-year-old niece or watch her younger sister perform folk dances at family gatherings — memories he’ll cherish as he grapples with the loss of six family members in Sunday’s Ethiopian Airlines crash.

 

Condolences to the families of many nations around the world. Many grieve for you.

[KhunBENQ]

I suggest a promotion round the world tour with a 737 MAX 8 for this travel group:

Boeing board of directors, chief executives and chief engineers.

 

If it happened in the US or happened with an Airbus model: of course grounded.

[Topdoc]

Massive risk to their credibility if another 737 max goes down

[sandrabbit]

'Boeing Chief Executive Dennis Muilenburg said he was confident in the safety of the 737 MAX in an email to employees which was seen by Reuters.'

 

If you remember the problem with 737 uncommanded rudder movements it took 3 crashes before Boeing accepted responsibility and even after that they still used the single servo valve for the rudder which would freeze and actually do the opposite to what was commanded. Pilots were trained in the simulator to cope with the problem ............

[sandrabbit]

Singapore has barred entry of 737 Max's into it's airspace.

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-47534292

 

[Baerboxer]

5 hours ago, DoctorG said:

Bit rash of FAA to declare the planes as safe when the investigation has not yet begun, especially as the pilot reported difficulties and witnesses saw bits falling off before the actual crash. Have we had the Lion Air investigation result yet?

 

But it's American designed and made. Can't have anything wrong with it. We all know Boeing are always whiter than white - 555!

 

Seriously, this could be a massive financial headache for Boeing and affect airlines future buying decisions for years.

 

Damage limitation has begun!

[sqwakvfr]

I have been a pilot for 35 years(Commerical Mutl Engine, CFi and CFII).  If a B737 MAX 8 had crashed in N. American or Europe I believe they would have been immediately grounded.  

 

Some of the Aviation Experts suspect the problem lies in the Automated Anti Stall Device(do not know the technical term) but as many know after takeoff most airlines require the crew to go on Flgiht Manangement System(FMS just a fancy word for Auto Pilot).  Initial climb out and final approach are two critical phases of flight because the margin for error is very small.  If any of the Automated Systems puts the aircraft  in an unsafe confirguration (either nose too high or nose to low) then the immediate reaction is to disengage the FMS and regain manual control.  I believe Boeing is under the belief that Lion Air Pilots did not disengage the Automated Flght Management System and were actually fighting it to regain control.  This is why I believe Boeing has been quiet.  They believe it comes to down PIlot Error.  When the B787’s had a battery problem they were quickly grounded.  The 787 battery problem first occurred in Japan on an ANA flight.  

[Kinnock]

Easy to avoid the 737 Max as Wikipedia has a list of airlines who've ordered the plane, then the Flight Details on the booki g site or a Flightradar search will confirm the aircraft type.

 

Seems wise to avoid them until the issue is sorted (assuming the Boeing lawyers and lobbyists allow a proper investigation).

 

How many attempts were needed to fix the 787 battery issue?  

 

 

[madmen]

It is, IMO, very rash and premature to declare the planes safe.

Almost certainly the cause of this tragic crash and the Lion air tragedy are one and the same, the similarities between the two cannot be pure coincidence.

Time and thorough investigation will tell, it appears that it is something to do with the anti-stall system, which automatically puts the plane in to a dive if it senses an imminent stall, which is fine, if you have enough altitude to play with.

It has been reported that a lot of airlines / pilots were not aware of this anti stall system, which was introduced as a consequence of Boeing having to reconfigure the position of the engines from previous models, which in turn changed the dynamics of the aircraft, the FAA were convinced by the manufacturer that the aircraft did not need full re-certification, using previous certification of the 737.

The European certifying bodies rejected this at first, but were persuaded to accept it by the US Government. 

The 737 MAX series was a rushed attempt by Boeing to compete with the A320 NEO series and possibly there were some short cuts taken that, in hindsight, should not have been.

Apparently there have been changes made whereby the pilots can override the anti stall feature, I'd imagine that any pilot flying a 737 MAX will now be very aware of how this can be done, so sad that it has taken two fatal crashes and the loss of 346 lives. RIP.

It does appear to be an an

automation taking over from the pilot . Something similar happened with air bus crash at an air show. Pulling back with full power did nothing, and the pilot got fired.

 

 

[Kinnock]

10 minutes ago, tomazbodner said:

Too bad I didn't copy out the response from SilkAir on how plane is safe to fly and they have no plans to ground it. Singapore's reaction is a sensible thing to do when there are so many unknowns and you don't want to encourage ignorance.

Wise move - if you are a city state, would you want a suspect aircraft flying over your city?  

[metisdead]

Off topic trolling posts and the replies have been removed. 

[Kinnock]

51 minutes ago, sqwakvfr said:

I have been a pilot for 35 years(Commerical Mutl Engine, CFi and CFII).  If a B737 MAX 8 had crashed in N. American or Europe I believe they would have been immediately grounded.  

 

Some of the Aviation Experts suspect the problem lies in the Automated Anti Stall Device(do not know the technical term) but as many know after takeoff most airlines require the crew to go on Flgiht Manangement System(FMS just a fancy word for Auto Pilot).  Initial climb out and final approach are two critical phases of flight because the margin for error is very small.  If any of the Automated Systems puts the aircraft  in an unsafe confirguration (either nose too high or nose to low) then the immediate reaction is to disengage the FMS and regain manual control.  I believe Boeing is under the belief that Lion Air Pilots did not disengage the Automated Flght Management System and were actually fighting it to regain control.  This is why I believe Boeing has been quiet.  They believe it comes to down PIlot Error.  When the B787’s had a battery problem they were quickly grounded.  The 787 battery problem first occurred in Japan on an ANA flight.  

Sounds reasonable - but I also read that Boeing were worried that the cost of simulator time to train the pilots on the new aircraft was going to be a barrier to sales, so they convinced the aviation authorities in Asia and Europe to allow it in to service without full training - and that may be why the pilots reacted too slow.

 

Only Latin America insisted on full pilot training, as they resisted the pressure from Boeing.

[55Jay]

As long as we're willing to throw around nationalistic generalizations here, how about the aviation standards and records for where these events took place? 

 

Or would that be racist? ????

Edited March 12, 2019 by 55Jay

[Mansell]

According to two eye witnesses there were flames and smoke coming from the plane in this recent crash.......does not sound similar to the previous crash.....and I still wouldn't fly on one until we know what happened.

[stevenl]

8 hours ago, sandrabbit said:

Singapore has barred entry of 737 Max's into it's airspace.

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-47534292

 

Also Australia has banned the 737 Max now.

[jollyhangmon]

28 minutes ago, stevenl said:

Also Australia has banned the 737 Max now.

 

... so did the UK apparently (just in).

[stevenl]

2 minutes ago, jollyhangmon said:

 

... so did the UK apparently (just in).

Yes, just read the same.

 

Boeing and FAA should have been proactive, now they're being overtaken by individual actions.