Being Forced out?

[tassieman]

4 hours ago, connda said:

As long as I have no emergency situations, my money should hold out until I die.  In my case, it's not just about having enough money - but it's about leaving my wife with enough funds to continue to live a good, comfortable life after I'm gone to the great beyond.  She already has the house, land, assets to keep her comfortable, and when she passes on it goes to my step son whom I love like my own.

Immigration, and imho Big Joke himself,  doesn't see it the way someone like I do.  I've been in Thailand for well over a decade, have not left the country in over a decade, I care for a family, and intend for my family to be cared for should I die. 

My biggest worry is the constant 'moving of the goalposts' by immigration and the Thai government.  Once they make someone like me have problems being able to stay by making the financial regulations simply stupid (and without grand-fathering) - there will be a majority of expats who provide and care for Thai families in the same boat.  I have a Plan B and Plan C, and probably Plan D, none of which include returning to the West.  But if forced out - really, who suffers? 
Big Jokester - this is directed directly at you.  Your Thai citizens, especially female Thai citizen, will suffer.  I doubt you'll be kicking out the farang wives of Thai males - who by the way, I'm pretty sure I have more money then most of them.  You're not going to target the farang wives of Thai males.  You'll target me, which explicitly means your target my wife and my Thai family.  And you will not care.
Most of us are not blind - we see it coming.  That's a farang trait - being able to see multiple instance of the future.  So - go ahead.  Keep the pressure on.  When the male foreigners who have been supporting families for a long time, even decades, are pushed out???  Our wives will appeal to you - but they are 'just women' and we are 'just farang' or 'just foreigners.'   Lower than dogs.  Most of us compared to Thais are rich dogs - but still just dogs.  So ignore the exodus.  Just unwanted farangs anyway, right? 

yes and yes it seems (and I am just a relative "newbie"). Thanks connda for telling it like it really is. Take care.

[grego49]

4 hours ago, CMNightRider said:

The American government treats Thais married to Americans much different than Thai Immigration treats Americans married to Thais.  Once the Thai spouse qualifies for their green card and moves to the states, they have the same freedoms as American citizens.  That's more freedoms they have in Thailand, lol.  Then to top that off, all they need to do is live in America, for three years and they are eligible to become US citizens.

 

What Thai Immigration is doing to 7Americans married to Thais in this country is nothing short of despicable.  One year marriage visas, 90 day reporting, and TM forms for everything under the sun.  Compare this with what the American government offers to Thais married to Americans.

 

It will be interesting to see what Thai Immigration has planned for their big announcement next month.  I'm certain more expats will be forced out of Thailand.  What I find amusing is most of the westerners being forced out of Thailand, is better off financially than most Thai Immigration officers.  

 

And a lot smarter and with compassion that IO have never heard of.

[marcusarelus]

18 minutes ago, mike787 said:

I have plenty of money, but leaving 800K in a Thai bank for a visa constitutes a terrible investment and risk I am unwilling to take and unnecessary.  What purpose does it it serve to deposit that; who benefits from it, and WHY?  Have you considered to ask BJ or the Thai whoever.  What is the justification? Don't tell me its a rule/law.  I WANT/we rational. Why isn't it 1 Mil, 2 mil, or conversly 50,000, or nothing like many other countries, ie, Canada, USA, Vietnam, etc?  THINK man? THINK?

I'm thinking.  What investment gives you the security of Bank of Bangkok at 2% interest and more if one is considering the continued downtrend of the pound and dollar? 

 

The rational is to prevent people from other countries who don't have the cash available to most expats from moving to Thailand.  Thailand does not want people from Africa or India in any large numbers.  I assume this is not a shock to anyone.  Same as Malaysia and Singapore and other sucessful countries in the region.  Thailand feels nothing in common with Laos, Cambodia or Vietnam - the powers that be identify more with Malaysia and Singapore. 

[marcusarelus]

4 hours ago, CMNightRider said:

It will be interesting to see what Thai Immigration has planned for their big announcement next month.  I'm certain more expats will be forced out of Thailand.  What I find amusing is most of the westerners being forced out of Thailand, is better off financially than most Thai Immigration officers.  

 

I must have missed it.  Do you have a link for the big announcement next month?

[sweatalot]

2 hours ago, moe666 said:

How is he being forced out other than the fact it appears he doen't qualify for extension of stay using the cash in the bank, he doesn't mention the income method. I will take a wild guess that he has been lying about his income at the Embassy. If I am wrong I will apologize. 

The only people being forced out are those who cannot qualify for the extension of stay using one of two methods to show income. People who have been fudging the books for years were only fooling themselves.

in most points I agree with you, 

but the rule about 800kB 5 months a year and balance never under 400k does make it harder

Edited April 2, 2019 by sweatalot

[sweatalot]

2 hours ago, rascalman said:

OK I have over $4,000 monthly. I am not different than most. Obligations in home country. Please do understand. 

I feel sorry for you. If you had the obligations before it seems you never qualified for a correct visa and used some inappropriate ways for to get it as many do. Immigration  is not interested in how much money you make abroad - they want the requested amounts in Thailand.

I can understand that your situation is challenging  after so many years relying  on the Thai not enforcing their rules.

Hopefully you can find a comfortable solution. I wish you good luck. 

 

[Oww]

3 hours ago, steven100 said:

Foreigners have abused the Thai immigration system. So much so that they are tightening the regulations. 

They welcome genuine tourists and genuine retirees.

Unless you use a Thai agent and a corrupt IO, then it's OK!

If they really wanted to get rid of cheaters why don't they just ban all agents? (Everyone has to apply in-person). It's such a glaringly obvious solution. But Thainess wins as always (just put the burden on the farang), locking our money down in Thai banks AND still keeping the backdoor open for ILLEGAL THAI agent backhanders! ????

 

 

 

[mike787]

2 hours ago, kingstonkid said:

okay, I am confused.  For all those of you that are married and supporting a Thai wife and family why have you not applied for residency?

 

All applications for Thai Permanent Residency is processed by the Royal Thai Immigration Commission. The annual quota for granting permanent residency in Thailand is a maximum of 100 persons per country. The application period for Thai PR usually from October to the end of December of every year.

In order to apply to become a Thai Permanent Resident, you must meet the following criteria:

• You must have had a Thai non-immigrant visa for at least three years prior to the submission of your application. Holders of multiple NON-Immigrant visas can not apply. You must have 3 consecutive yearly extensions in order to qualify.
• You must be a holder of a non-immigrant visa at the time of submitting your application.
• You must be able to meet one of these categories to apply for PR status in Thailand:
  • Investment category (minimum 3 – 10 Mil. Baht investment in Thailand)
  • Working/ Business category
  • Support a family or Humanity Reasons category: In this category, you must have a relationship with a Thai citizen or an alien who already posses a residence permit as a husband or wife; father or mother; or a guardian of a Thai child under 20 years of age.
  • Expert / academic category
  • Other categories as determined by Thai Immigration

https://www.thaiembassy.com/thailand/thai-permanent-residency.php

 

GREAT suggestion.  Let's ALL apply. Oh, wait, only 100 persons per country. hmmm...might be a slight problem.

[mike787]

5 hours ago, totally thaied up said:

Yes

 

We are in Australia now. My Thai wife does not need to report. In fact with her tourist visa, she could infact apply now onshore for PR. Our countries make it easy for our spouses to gain PR but Thailand has become a xenophobic backwater over the last four years.

 

The changes are dramatic. I am not looking for 50 cent beers and hookers - I want somewhere that my wife and I call home but if Thailand keeps this up and hardens the conditions of us that are married, many of us will be fcked and it is the wife that will be affected, but whenever did the elite care about them.

 

Nope, never... 

I hold dual citizenship Canada/US...No problems for my Thai wife.  Immigration is so easy, cheap, and fast.  Very common sense driven, and NO xenophobia.  Either country is happy to accept her as one of their own. Unlike here, my treatment right off the airplane is akin to being a fugitive.  Only time it ends is when I leave.

[DaRoadrunner]

3 hours ago, marcusarelus said:

The Chinese are trying desperatly to get money out of China and are buying multi million baht condos by the bucket load so that is how they will replace the poorer expats who are afraid to open a Thai bank account. 

Wait till the Thais think the Chinese are taking over, buying up their country. Then see what happens to the immigration regs.

[arithai12]

3 hours ago, mike787 said:

I have plenty of money, but leaving 800K in a Thai bank for a visa constitutes a terrible investment and risk I am unwilling to take and unnecessary.  What purpose does it it serve to deposit that; who benefits from it, and WHY?  Have you considered to ask BJ or the Thai whoever.  What is the justification? Don't tell me its a rule/law.  I WANT/we rational. Why isn't it 1 Mil, 2 mil, or conversly 50,000, or nothing like many other countries, ie, Canada, USA, Vietnam, etc?  THINK man? THINK?

-800k is not an investment. still, it does yield a little, and considering the downward trend of most currencies against the Baht it's not that bad.

 

-if you have plenty, then 800k should be a small fraction that you can forget for years.

 

-I agree it's a number drawn out of the blue, with no allowance for owning a condo, being single or with a large family, in Bangkok or in Nakhon Nowhere. But it's a clear, stable number that you knew before retiring here. They don't need to justify it to you.

 

-you are saying that if anyone wants to retire at 50 in the USA they just need to go there without any proof of income, no matter what nationality... not that I would ever want to, but somehow I doubt it.

 

[wilailuk]

Very confused about the headline of this topic: Being forced out?

 

Nothing has changed, it´s still 800K in the bank or 65K pr. month, so who is forcing the OP out?

 

IMO just another poor farang who would be better off somewhere else, back home maybe?

 

Never seen so much whining and bla-bla-bla here like the last 2 months, it´s pathetic, you know the rules, if you don´t like it here or don´t have the dough, get out!

 

 

 

[DDBKK]

9 hours ago, mike787 said:

Thailand has become the xenophobic country that surprised me. Thanks for nothing.  So much for good guys in, bad guys out.  Here goes another good guy out.

I hate to be the bearer of bad news but they always have been. 

[wilailuk]

23 minutes ago, DaRoadrunner said:

Wait till the Thais think the Chinese are taking over, buying up their country. Then see what happens to the immigration regs.

Why should they care? The "ruling Thai´s" are Chinese at heart! Learn about how many Chinese actually came and settled here during the last 200 years.. They are in every province, every town, and Bangkok for sure. 

 

 

Edited April 2, 2019 by wilailuk

[Jingthing]

1 hour ago, wilailuk said:

Very confused about the headline of this topic: Being forced out?

 

Nothing has changed, it´s still 800K in the bank or 65K pr. month, so who is forcing the OP out?

 

IMO just another poor farang who would be better off somewhere else, back home maybe?

 

Never seen so much whining and bla-bla-bla here like the last 2 months, it´s pathetic, you know the rules, if you don´t like it here or don´t have the dough, get out!

 

 

 

Yes, you are very confused.

Perhaps it's because you are posting FALSE information.

Nothing has changed?

No. 

That is factually incorrect.

 

If you actually understood this issue or had a personal connection to it, you would know that already. Blah blah blah indeed.

 

I'll indulge you with some facts and others that are similarly misinformed.

 

What has changed?

 

800K method

Previously two months seasoning before first application and three for subsequent.

Previously no restrictions on spending down during the year until the beginning of the next year's pre seasoning period.

 

Now two months PRE seasoning for all, and three months POST seasoning for all.

Now people being ordered to show up three months after their extension with bank book.

If one baht under 800K, presumably their annual extension is then invalid but legal consequences beyond that have not been announced.

Now after the three months post seasoning of 800K, then the account must not go one baht under 400K for the rest of the year until the beginning of the next pre seasoning period.

Legal consequences of going under the 400K not announced.

Effectively for the large portion of expats that use that 800K baht for their annual SPENDING, it is an effective INCREASE in requirements for the three months after of living expenses. Then of course they can never touch the first 400K at all. So that's locked down unless you leave Thailand.

 

Income method.

Indeed not changed if you can still get an embassy letter.

For those that can't, big big big changes.

They must show imports of the full 65K monthly going back 12 months with possible leniency on the full 12 months this year only. 
There was never any IMPORT requirement at all before for income method.

 

Combination method 

The biggest mess. 

A large portion of expats indeed have income but less than 65K. So the combination method allowed mixing that with a bank account to meet the 800K.

Now a combo method though technically legally allowed under the new rules is in practice proving to be very problematical in practice, especially for those without embassy letters, but really everyone, because the BANK portion of the combo method must comply somehow with the new bank seasoning rules, and the mechanical specifics of how to enforce that are just very unclear.

Reports are some offices won't deal with them at all, and other offices might but have a hard time communicating the specific mechanical enforcement rules, which of course will very significantly office to office and over time.

 

In my opinion, relying on the combination method in this current environment is not recommendable if you can avoid it.

[mike787]

2 hours ago, arithai12 said:

-800k is not an investment. still, it does yield a little, and considering the downward trend of most currencies against the Baht it's not that bad.

 

-if you have plenty, then 800k should be a small fraction that you can forget for years.

 

-I agree it's a number drawn out of the blue, with no allowance for owning a condo, being single or with a large family, in Bangkok or in Nakhon Nowhere. But it's a clear, stable number that you knew before retiring here. They don't need to justify it to you.

 

-you are saying that if anyone wants to retire at 50 in the USA they just need to go there without any proof of income, no matter what nationality... not that I would ever want to, but somehow I doubt it.

 

-If 800K is not an investment, what is?  Why are people concerned about coming up with that amount and parting with it temporarily?  I understand if it is not an issue/concern for you.  The rest of us have a different purpose/concern/uses for it that are counter current to yours for too many reasons to list. 

 

-Plenty is relative. My choice is not to have 800K in a thai account.  There is a lot I can do with 800K than forgetting about it and earning far less than inflation.  You may want to become more familiar with investing terms such as "compound", time, and amortization. 

 

-.They don't need to justify, but I don't have to play the stupid game.  As others have said on TVF "the goal post are moving".  The point/concern is, there's very little consistency.  Something we older folks value for planing.

 

-immigrate without an income to Canada or US is possible, there are several "pathways" to immigrating  without Income.  Not my rules.  FACTS.  However, as you stated, it's a "choice" but it is available.  Unlike in Thailand.

 

Edited April 2, 2019 by mike787

[inThailand]

Based on the multiple posts and hundreds of replys on this visa money topic, the bar stools next to me will be empty. Will I be more handsome next year? 

[mokwit]

5 hours ago, wilailuk said:

Very confused about the headline of this topic: Being forced out?

 

Nothing has changed, it´s still 800K in the bank or 65K pr. month, so who is forcing the OP out?

 

IMO just another poor farang who would be better off somewhere else, back home maybe?

 

Never seen so much whining and bla-bla-bla here like the last 2 months, it´s pathetic, you know the rules, if you don´t like it here or don´t have the dough, get out!

 

 

 

Nominally nothing has changed but the actual mounts tied up or needing to be transferred has increased. It is best to appraise oneself of the facts before posting.

 

Thailand has de facto changed the rules on people - not grandfathering sets a precedent that makes sensible solvent people reconsider. It is hard to relocate at 92 I would suspect.

 

I find people posting "don´t have the dough, get out!" disgusting. People made the decision based on criteria laid down by the Thai authorities and the precedent of grandfathering when changes were made. Do come back and tell us how it feels when the rising tide reaches you.

 

[steven100]

6 hours ago, mike787 said:

We are in Australia now.

sorry to hear your plight .... hope you escape soon.

[tingtongtourist]

So it seems some have a problem to not touch the 400k for 7 months per year?

But if have 800k, is still possible to spend 400k over 7 months right?
so 400k ÷7= 57,142

So, if a living expense is 57k per month:
for the other 5 months of seasoning when cant touch, you need an extra 285,000


but really?
how many retired guy is spending 57k/month here?

(most pride themself they can live off the smell of the oily rag. as can read on many thread)

anyway, If you spent 800k down to zero in 1 year
thats 66,000baht per month,

and then STILL have to top up to 800k for the next year extension right?

the way i am thinking, you need around 1,085,000 baht for a year.
(allow around 90k per month)

in my case i spent nowhere near 45k per month
and the rest is for insurance if i had to leave Thailand quick.

and as for keeping 400k baht locked up,
invested in bank in my country, i am lucky to earn 10k baht per annum interest on that amount....

which is peanuts

or baht bus money if you prefer!

 

I dont see why the big fuss,

at the end of the day the money is still yours to spend,

unlike the ridiculous burning of 500k or 1mill on some elite visa

[jonwilly]

As I understand matters, until 1955 Foreigners could own land. The Gov of the day changed the law because they were concerned about Chinese buying plots of land.

This was Chinese chased out of China by Mao.

The Thai government will change laws to suit Thailand and it's folk.

Much of the current problems come from Frangs finding ways to 'Cheat' the Thai Immigration Laws.

A respectable Visa agent in Chiang Mai told me that when the Immigration Police become familiar with the cheats and their methods, they get the rules changed. This was when we all had to be Photographed as part of the immigration procedure, he said some well off Frangs had been paying other folk go down and do the process for them.

I used to be able to spend all of my B800K the day after my Visa was issued, now I will have to leave first B800K for 3 months, then B400K for rest of year.

On one occasion it was convenient to use a large chunk of the B800K, now due to some people not playing the game, no longer possible.

Thailand is far from perfect but where is. ?

I know at least one old friend, married long term who I doubt will be able to meet the new requirements, legally married with children and nice house he paid for, Tragic.

Just what will happen when the 'Proposals' on Medical Insurance, become law I do not know but as one old nacker who has self insured for the last 18 years I think my bag packing time will have come.

Pity I Luv Thailand and have many long term Thai friends.

 

john

[CMNightRider]

5 hours ago, mike787 said:

-If 800K is not an investment, what is?  Why are people concerned about coming up with that amount and parting with it temporarily?  I understand if it is not an issue/concern for you.  The rest of us have a different purpose/concern/uses for it that are counter current to yours for too many reasons to list. 

 

-Plenty is relative. My choice is not to have 800K in a thai account.  There is a lot I can do with 800K than forgetting about it and earning far less than inflation.  You may want to become more familiar with investing terms such as "compound", time, and amortization. 

 

-.They don't need to justify, but I don't have to play the stupid game.  As others have said on TVF "the goal post are moving".  The point/concern is, there's very little consistency.  Something we older folks value for planing.

 

-immigrate without an income to Canada or US is possible, there are several "pathways" to immigrating  without Income.  Not my rules.  FACTS.  However, as you stated, it's a "choice" but it is available.  Unlike in Thailand.

 

Good post Mike.  I get so tired of the smug posters that seemed amused by the many expats being forced out of Thailand because of Thai Immigrations anti-western stance.  What is ironic, the westerners immigration is forcing out of Thailand, come from countries who treat Thais much different when Thai citizens immigrate to their countries.  

 

Thais in western countries are not burdened with 90 day reporting, yearly visits for visa extensions, and TM forms for some of the most ridicules reasons.  Thai Immigration leaders should give serious thought as to why they think it is okay to burden westerners with some of the most idiotic rules and requirements in order to reside in Thailand.     

[Jingjock]

On ‎3‎/‎31‎/‎2019 at 4:01 AM, Puchaiyank said:

Google Panama...only need $1,000 per month to satisfy visa there...can work...own land and house...good healthcare...good luck! 

Sounds a good scheme, worth looking at, what would be most attractive there??? beaches, food rent prices etc.

[Letseng]

2 hours ago, mokwit said:

Nominally nothing has changed but the actual mounts tied up or needing to be transferred has increased. It is best to appraise oneself of the facts before posting.

 

Thailand has de facto changed the rules on people - not grandfathering sets a precedent that makes sensible solvent people reconsider. It is hard to relocate at 92 I would suspect.

 

I find people posting "don´t have the dough, get out!" disgusting. People made the decision based on criteria laid down by the Thai authorities and the precedent of grandfathering when changes were made. Do come back and tell us how it feels when the rising tide reaches you.

 

Ppl walked into the trap by coming to Thailand because life was affordable when the xchange rate was in their favor. Rules could be  ignored. Many came because pension wasn't enough to stay back home. There was nothing spare for an emergency. 

We have a home in an EU country. Our pension comes from a another country and stays there. Regardless, we pay tax for money we earn elsewhere.

What is the problem to bring in the monthly amount and pay a few Baht tax?

If you don't want to deposit 800.000, why not bring it in monthly amounts of 65.000 and keep the balance outside?

 

[Puchaiyank]

17 minutes ago, Jingjock said:

Sounds a good scheme, worth looking at, what would be most attractive there??? beaches, food rent prices etc.

Free info...notice URL on top of book cover...

[mstevens]

14 hours ago, CMNightRider said:

There is a large American retiree presence in Thailand, that are starting to dwindle in numbers thanks to the American Embassies failure to issue income verification letters.        

I wonder if this claim is true. Has the number of American retirees in Thailand really dwindled due to this policy? That's a pretty bold claim to make.

 

I never got the idea that American retirees had money problems or used agents to get a visa extension via the back door. I always had a sense it was more a Brit thing, but I obviously could be wrong.

[NCC1701A]

14 hours ago, CMNightRider said:

There is a large American retiree presence in Thailand, that are starting to dwindle in numbers

where are they going? to their trailers in the deserts of Arizona to eat cat food?

 

 

[marcusarelus]

2 hours ago, CMNightRider said:

Good post Mike.  I get so tired of the smug posters that seemed amused by the many expats being forced out of Thailand because of Thai Immigrations anti-western stance.  What is ironic, the westerners immigration is forcing out of Thailand, come from countries who treat Thais much different when Thai citizens immigrate to their countries.  

 

Thais in western countries are not burdened with 90 day reporting, yearly visits for visa extensions, and TM forms for some of the most ridicules reasons.  Thai Immigration leaders should give serious thought as to why they think it is okay to burden westerners with some of the most idiotic rules and requirements in order to reside in Thailand.     

Stop talking to us like we are all newby tourists.  90 day reporting is not a burden anyone living here knows this and it is far easier than a Thai trying to get a visa to the USA.  If Thai immigration were to implement USA rules or Singapore rules or Malaysia rules few of us would be here.  

[CMNightRider]

22 minutes ago, marcusarelus said:

Stop talking to us like we are all newby tourists.  90 day reporting is not a burden anyone living here knows this and it is far easier than a Thai trying to get a visa to the USA.  If Thai immigration were to implement USA rules or Singapore rules or Malaysia rules few of us would be here.  

Obtaining a tourist visa or a "green card" is easy for a Thai spouse of an American citizen.  If Thai Immigration were to adopt "USA rules" for an American spouse to a Thai wife, there would be no one year visa extensions, 90 day reporting or TM forms.  In three years, you would be eligible for Thai citizenship.  It's too bad Thai Immigration doesn't consider this.  Thanks for the suggestion ????

[CMNightRider]

1 hour ago, NCC1701A said:

where are they going? to their trailers in the deserts of Arizona to eat cat food?

 

 

I don't think so, lol.