Expats in Thailand giving up and moving on

[mngmn]

Air pollution, pesticides in food, double pricing, endless scams, compulsive exaggeration and lying, ever rising cost of living, vague and randomly changing immigration rules, outright xenophobia ...

 

What's not to like?

Edited April 15, 2019 by mngmn

[Vacuum]

7 minutes ago, mngmn said:

Air pollution, pesticides in food, double pricing, endless scams, compulsive exaggeration and lying, ever rising cost of living, vague and randomly changing immigration rules, outright xenophobia ...

 

What's not to like?

Question is; what brought you here?

[NoshowJones]

16 minutes ago, luckyluke said:

L.o.I. : Letter of Income.

Used 100 times in many topics here, I thought it was obvious. 

Sorry. 

Letter of income would be L.o.i. not L.o.I. or in capitals L.O.I.

[marcusarelus]

2 hours ago, Jingjock said:

I lived here 9 years, walk along Soi Buakhao tonight (Songkran) and see how many tourists are here, you don't have to be a rocket scientist to work that one out, the bars are empty.

They were empty when the pound crashed.  No surprise there. 

[marcusarelus]

26 minutes ago, mngmn said:

Air pollution, pesticides in food, double pricing, endless scams, compulsive exaggeration and lying, ever rising cost of living, vague and randomly changing immigration rules, outright xenophobia ...

 

What's not to like?

So leave Chiang Mai and it's much better.  I don't have any of those problems. 

[John Sutherland]

3 hours ago, sfokevin said:

Before you call the Thais xenophobic take a look at your home countries immigration policy...

Mine involves the potential of being caged... 

Exactly, the 2 strictest in the world for immigration are U.K and U.S.A. If you make a genuine application that is.

[JackThompson]

22 hours ago, elviajero said:

The expats with a genuine income or cash in the bank should have no problem with the recent changes.  

Only as long as they have more than they were told would be needed when they decided to retire here, before the goal-posts were moved.

 

3 hours ago, LawrenceN said:

...  Stricter enforcement? So be it. Keeps the riffraff out. 

The "riff raff" / money-fakers were using agents before, and still are.  Now, with the changes, many who previously qualified honestly also must pay agents. 

 

Since the agents are unaffected, it's not hard to see the changes had nothing to do with removing those who "don't qualify" - and everything to do with maximizing agent-laundered revenue.

[mngmn]

50 minutes ago, Vacuum said:

Question is; what brought you here?

First came in 1982. Later married a Thai, have half Thai child, full Thai step child. Learned to speak Thai and lived here on and off for many years. Have supported parents inlaw and funded education of various Thai children.

 

Before TV members go off, I am definitely not looking for praise or any medals. But as a result would definitely call myself a 'stakeholder' in Thailand - a concept that few Thais and most on TV fail to grasp.

 

[mngmn]

44 minutes ago, marcusarelus said:

So leave Chiang Mai and it's much better.  I don't have any of those problems. 

Not in Chiang Mai.

[luckyluke]

9 minutes ago, JackThompson said:

Only as long as they have more than they were told would be needed when they decided to retire here, before the goal-posts were moved.

Only for some nationalities, however they may be the majority in numbers. 

 

12 minutes ago, JackThompson said:

and everything to do with maximizing agent-laundered revenue.

Idem here. 

 

It seems there is a kind of "harassment" on 3 nationalities, since the embassies of these 3 nationalities stopped to issue Letter of Income/Affidavit, and thus making the life of the Immigration officers more difficult. 

 

Speculation of course. 

 

[RobMuir]

18 minutes ago, mngmn said:

First came in 1982. Later married a Thai, have half Thai child, full Thai step child. Learned to speak Thai and lived here on and off for many years. Have supported parents inlaw and funded education of various Thai children.

 

Before TV members go off, I am definitely not looking for praise or any medals. But as a result would definitely call myself a 'stakeholder' in Thailand - a concept that few Thais and most on TV fail to grasp.

 

Nice. Where did you meet the wife? 

 

She was a single mum when you met her? Her parents were unemployed?

 

i wouldn’t read too much into this piece. It sounds like it used the thaivisa survey to come to its conclusions.

Edited April 15, 2019 by RobMuir

[Letseng]

Why would I move if I can meet the requirements? The ppl I deal with on a daily basis are as friendly or unfriendly they have always been. What may end it for us is health insurance. I have one but my other half got a flaw which excludes him from getting cover.

[mngmn]

1 hour ago, RobMuir said:

Nice. Where did you meet the wife? 

 

She was a single mum when you met her? Her parents were unemployed?

 

i wouldn’t read too much into this piece. It sounds like it used the thaivisa survey to come to its conclusions.

If you look up a bit you will see my point flying over the top of your head ????

[rwill]

I don't think immigration policy had anything to do with him losing the job.  I think it was because he was still involving himself in stuff that had nothing to do with immigration.

 

[NCC1701A]

this topic is sort of sad to me and we all need a break.

i think it is time for a song:

 

[Thingamabob]

Every country changes over time. After more than 30 years living in Thailand I still find it a very good place to be. I'm not aware of a bad attitude to foreigners, although many recent arrivals from overseas have a lot to answer for given the way they look, speak and behave.

[brokenbone]

On 4/14/2019 at 11:11 AM, mania said:

Not a chance

 

As much as Foreigners from the West & Europe like to think they matter they don't matter much in

the overall scheme of things in Thailand ( Rich tourist yes...long term shoestring expats no)

 

i'd argue the 'rich tourists' are in minority

and to top it off merely spend two week here

once in a lifetime if they do come.

odds are the large number of expats here spend more over the year

Edited April 15, 2019 by brokenbone

[5633572526]

On 4/14/2019 at 9:06 AM, BestB said:

Also agree with you, many things appear bad and have changed in general but as saying goes grass always looks greener on the other side.

 

other places may look more attractive until you move there and find out there are problems there also. Example , Cambodia looks like an easy choice, cheaper and easier with visa but health and infrastructure is lacking. So one may well be excited about washer visa but then hit the wall with some health issues.

Easy flight back to Thailand for health issues and the health insurance I have here covers anywhere in s.e. Asia

[Guest]

As someone who has spent significant time in Thailand, and is excited to be moving there soon on a multi-year contract, I can state emphatically that the bureaucracy factor looms large.

 

I laugh at claims like this:

On 4/13/2019 at 9:53 PM, Peterw42 said:

Given that the OP has no real data or numbers, its a little hard to comment. The OP talks about working ex-pats leaving, even though there have been no changes to working Visa's etc. 

Opinions, thoughts, comments are irrelevant without any hard data that shows that people are leaving, tourists are in decline etc.

There is data. It's not a lot of data, and you can quibble with it, but you have to recognize the difficulty of getting massive amounts of authoritative, quantitative data on this. There's no Gallup Poll of expats in Thailand. 

 

As for opinions, thoughts, and comments, they are relevant (they're also "data," by the way). If someone tells you they're leaving (or thinking about leaving) because of X, Y, or Z, you can question it all you want. It's one person's claim. When others start expressing similar sentiments, and when you get a little data that seems to back it up, maybe you should pay attention. 

On 4/14/2019 at 3:38 AM, ThaiBunny said:

From the narrow financial perspective, no, but from the added administrative hoop(s) to jump through clearly it has annoyed some enough to reconsider their decision to stay

Yes. And:

On 4/14/2019 at 11:53 PM, Thaidream said:

there is an irritation factor that does start to build up and then one starts to re-evaluate the whole situation. [...]

For me- it's more sadness than anything- because the potential of the country and it's people are unlimited.

 

Exactly. You're talking about people who have made a decision to leave countries with some of the highest standards of living in the world. While some may be leaving their homelands, others are more drawn to Thailand by all the positives. 

 

When you start throwing up barriers, you reduce that draw. I haven't seen anyone in this thread questioning Thailand's prerogative to control its borders, make sure the right people can get in while the wrong ones can't, etc. But a lots of things make it more difficult for the "right people" to come/stay:

• The incessant paper-shuffling. They say the Brits are the model for the Vogons, but I haven't seen anything that rivals the Thais. It's endless with the forms, stamps, reporting, 2x2 photos...and all the waiting that goes with it. I'd probably be less annoyed if all of this happened up front--if it felt like they were being diligent in making sure only the "right people" entered the country. But it's not. It equates to harassment of people who have been invited into the country, do good work, and love the land. It's the creation of a system that always hangs over the heads of legal residents, and the (I'd argue) intentional creation of all kinds of loopholes (e.g., border runs, visa runs) that let people stay...if they put up with inconvenience. It has nothing to do with merit, or safety, or proper record-keeping. You could put together a team of tech-savvy teenagers and they could devise a streamlined, electronic process that would eliminate most of the inconvenience and the cost...but that would eliminate the jobs of the form stamper, and we can't have that, can we?
• The inconsistency. It would slightly more tolerable if the rules were always the rules. But we know they're not. A lot of that comes down to...
• The corruption. This one almost goes without saying. Can't go through the usual timely process of hoop-jumping this week? Brown envelope. That really inspires confidence that all the rules are there for the benefit of safety and order. ????
• The unpredictability. Then there's the fact that these rules just keep changing. Not necessarily because the old way was bad or the new way was better (which we can understand). And certainly not because "the people" or their representatives deliberated and decided to make a change. Nah. Whoever claims to be in charge this week just issued a decree. Deal with it.
• The nickel and diming. This is more an annoyance than a real financial barrier (although for some it can be a significant chunk of their low income/budget), with the costs of "re-entry permits" and indirect costs of border runs and visa runs and immigration office trips photos and "tea money" to facilitate the process. Reasonable people accept reasonable costs to evaluate your application to enter the country (or work, or become a resident, etc.). We get there will be a reasonable cost to process appropriate paperwork. [My country is notoriously excessive, expecting citizens of most countries to pay hundreds of dollars to apply for a mere tourist visa, then (at their expense) travel to a consulate for an interview to evaluate their worthiness.] But enough is enough. It's like that Seinfeld episode where Putty starts listing absurd fees for buying a car. Finders fee? Undercoating? Paying for a stamp to let you leave and come back? Why isn't this all computerized? Why should a farang teacher with 8 months left on their visa have to pay you extra just because they would like see their family? Just make the price the price. 

Again, I say this as someone who loves Thailand, and I think it reflects a common mindset of western farangs. We love the Thai people. We love our jobs. We chose Thailand (at least for a while) over our beloved homelands. If you decided to welcome us, then just leave us alone.

 

[mike787]

On 4/14/2019 at 2:22 PM, elviajero said:

should have no problem

That is true and false at the same time.  WHY?  Because each immigration ORfficer in each office, at each location interprets laws differently. Don't believe me!  Don't! Just read ALL the TVF threads.  Talk to the people who posted their experiences. 

[elviajero]

18 minutes ago, mike787 said:

On 4/14/2019 at 8:22 AM, elviajero said:

should have no problem

That is true and false at the same time.  WHY?  Because each immigration ORfficer in each office, at each location interprets laws differently. Don't believe me!  Don't! Just read ALL the TVF threads.  Talk to the people who posted their experiences. 

That’s why I wrote “should”.

[BritManToo]

On 4/14/2019 at 8:52 AM, Hockeybik said:

There is no denying that obtaining retirement visas did take an uptick in difficulty with stricter enforcement of proof of finances. 

It's totally different,

Before you needed 800k and could use it for living expenses.

Now you need 800k plus living expenses.

 

Effectively the new rules make you need to find another $25,000 on top of your existing $25,000.

Edited April 21, 2019 by BritManToo

[elviajero]

4 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

It's totally different,

Before you needed 800k and could use it for living expenses.

And at the end of 9 months you need to replenish whatever you’ve spent in living expenses.

 

4 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

Now you need 800k plus living expenses.

You’ve always needed 800K plus living expenses.

 

4 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

Effectively the new rules make you need to find another $25,000 on top of your existing $25,000.

Complete nonsense. You can’t retire to Thailand, before or after, with only 800K to your name.

[BritManToo]

On 4/15/2019 at 1:21 PM, John Sutherland said:

Exactly, the 2 strictest in the world for immigration are U.K and U.S.A. If you make a genuine application that is.

3rd world people moving to the west are a financial loss for the west (even if they work, they tend to send money home). The west also pays to educate their children.

Western pensioners moving to the 3rd world are a financial gain for the 3rd world (we only import foreign currency). And we pay to educate 3rd world children.

 

I'm sorry you don't understand the differences in economics involved, but it's an exact opposite money flow.

Edited April 21, 2019 by BritManToo

[Jingthing]

24 minutes ago, elviajero said:

 

 

You’ve always needed 800K plus living expenses.

 

 

INCORRECT!

[marcusarelus]

43 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

It's totally different,

Before you needed 800k and could use it for living expenses.

Now you need 800k plus living expenses.

 

Effectively the new rules make you need to find another $25,000 on top of your existing $25,000.

Or go home once every two years and get a new visa or show an income of 65k per month.  Still lots of other alternatives.  I imagine the borrowing alternatives will be along soon.  

[elviajero]

18 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

44 minutes ago, elviajero said:

You’ve always needed 800K plus living expenses.

INCORRECT!

It’s not.

 

Under the old rules you need 800K plus 3 months living expenses. You could then spend any of the 800K to live on during the next 9 months, BUT at the end of 9 months you need to replenish whatever you've spent.

 

End result = 800K plus living expenses need to be brought into the country.

[Jingthing]

6 minutes ago, marcusarelus said:

Or go home once every two years and get a new visa or show an income of 65k per month.  Still lots of other alternatives.  I imagine the borrowing alternatives will be along soon.  

Big Things Lost / Changed

 

Embassy letters for those nationals so unlucky TERMINATED.

 

65K method without embassy letter now requires full monthly import.

 

With embassy letters, the amount needed to import monthly or annually -- ZERO BAHT.

 

Combo method -- enforcement rules massively unclear. Some offices may not be doing them anymore AT ALL. Combo method much more COMPLICATED. Why? Because without embassy letter you also need MONTHLY IMPORT. With embassy letter, no import needed. Rules on the BANK portion must somehow conform to the new onerous seasoning rules for the full bank method adjusted for combo, but enforcement mechanics have not been communicated.

 

Full Bank Method 800K

Before seasoning 2 months first application 3 months subsequent BEFORE application.

After extension granted, can spend down completely if you wish all year, before the next seasoning method.

 

NOW -- massive changes

800K seasoning 2 months before application for all but in reality some offices are still enforcing 3 months before for subsequent applications. So in effect that is SIX entire months at 800K when previously it was 2 or 3.

After extension granted, you must no go under 800K for three months.

After that you must not go under 400K for the rest of the year before the beginning of the next pre seasoning phase.

Going under during the three months 800K seasoning results in VOIDING the annual extension. Additional consequences not announced by immigration. 

 

[marcusarelus]

Have there been any polls on Thai Visa that asked if anyone was leaving because of the new retirement extension changes?

[Nyezhov]

The big changes for me in 2019-2020

 

1. One more 90 day report in 2019

2. No SETV needed in 2019

3. Need two SETVs  in 2020, one in January (laos) and one for Sept (USA) since I wont play their money game

4. Need two trips to immigration in 2020 for Visa Extensions as oppsed to 90 day reports

 

Otherwise biz as usual

Edited April 21, 2019 by Nyezhov