Do you believe in God and why

[Heppinger]

2 minutes ago, sirineou said:

The Bible and the Quran are full of passages that encourage violence. 

As is free to air TV, i'm missing your point.

[sirineou]

1 minute ago, Heppinger said:

As is free to air TV, i'm missing your point.

I am sorry. I thought I was being clear.

Some religions require violence . 

and atheism by definition requires nothing. 

Do atheists do bad things?  Sure

Is it because of atheism? by definition NOT. 

 

 

[Sunmaster]

17 minutes ago, sirineou said:

The Bible and the Quran are full of passages that encourage violence.

That may be true, I don't know...I haven't read any of them. 

I would like to come to a conclusion of this. Religious groups did bad things, non religious groups did bad things. Religious books called for bad things to happen, non religious books did the same.

Were the bad things instigated by people or by God? Were the bad things done by people or by God? Were the books written by people or by God?

God is unconditional, eternal love, ...he is not the one calling for violence in his name. Why would he? We are all God's children after all. 

If you want to list all the shortcomings of religion, be my guest, but then to be fair, you should list all the good parts too.

[Heppinger]

6 minutes ago, sirineou said:

Some religions require violence . 

So your saying there are religions that will deny membership unless you carry out a violent act?  Soccer Hooliganism maybe? Pub thugism?  Alley rapism?  any of these?

[sirineou]

Just now, Heppinger said:

So your saying there are religions that will deny membership unless you carry out a violent act?  Soccer Hooliganism maybe? Pub thugism?  Alley rapism?  any of these?

Now you are being flippant and i believe trolling me.  

[sirineou]

3 minutes ago, Sunmaster said:

That may be true, I don't know...I haven't read any of them. 

I would like to come to a conclusion of this. Religious groups did bad things, non religious groups did bad things. Religious books called for bad things to happen, non religious books did the same.

Were the bad things instigated by people or by God? Were the bad things done by people or by God? Were the books written by people or by God?

God is unconditional, eternal love, ...he is not the one calling for violence in his name. Why would he? We are all God's children after all. 

If you want to list all the shortcomings of religion, be my guest, but then to be fair, you should list all the good parts too.

I did

I said: " "Good people do good things and bad people do bad things. but it takes religion to make good people do bad things" and to be fair it also makes some bad people do some good things.  "

The above is a line used to great success by Christopher Hitchens   in his debates, and much to my surprise no one ever came back with my "it also makes some bad people do some good things. " that would had devastated or at the very least neutralised his argument. 

[Heppinger]

6 minutes ago, sirineou said:

Now you are being flippant and i believe trolling me.  

I mean no disrespect nor is my intention to troll you.  You stated that the Bible and Quran are full of passages that contain violence, you should critique your comments before you post them as this comment is dishonest and could be considered trolling and disrespectful.  The Bible contains a small amount of passages that encourage violence, would be more accurate. You also stated that some religions require violence, is Christianity a religion you believe requires violence? 

[sirineou]

2 hours ago, Heppinger said:

I mean no disrespect nor is my intention to troll you.  You stated that the Bible and Quran are full of passages that contain violence, you should critique your comments before you post them as this comment is dishonest and could be considered trolling and disrespectful.  The Bible contains a small amount of passages that encourage violence, would be more accurate. You also stated that some religions require violence, is Christianity a religion you believe requires violence? 

Require is a bad choice of words I should have said advocates violence. I don't know what you mean "Critique" I thought that was the job of the opposing side , which is what you are doing right now. 

As to the violent aspect  of religion , if you disagree you might not be familiar with history or follow the news. 

As to the Bible and Quran, all you need to do is Google  it

Quran: "In preparation for the suicide attack, their handlers had told them to meditate on two chapters of the Quran in which God tells Muslims to "cast terror into the hearts of unbelievers. " 

Bible: " Consider the Book of 1 Samuel, when God instructs King Saul to attack the Amalekites: "And utterly destroy all that they have, and do not spare them,"  

https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=124494788

Anyway , that's all I am going to say on that subject, my response to this thread is that religion advocates violence and atheism does not, if you want to quible on the degree of violence you need to do it with someone else.  

[jimmybcool]

Wow.  500 pages.  

[thaibeachlovers]

11 hours ago, teatime101 said:

Religious belief tends to align with a desire for strong leadership and simple solutions, ie. far right political ideologies.

 

Evangelical Christians (US version) and fanatical Muslims (ME version) have a lot in common - they  need to justify their existence through an absolute authority.

 

How ironic that when the antichrist finally arrived in the USA they made him President.

If you are going to accuse someone of being the antichrist try at least to get the "facts" correct, as laid out in Revelations.

[thaibeachlovers]

1 hour ago, jimmybcool said:

Wow.  500 pages.  

WE DID IT. Well done to all.

[thaibeachlovers]

2 hours ago, sirineou said:

Require is a bad choice of words I should have said advocates violence.

Nothing that the Christ said is advocating violence ( far as I know ), rather the opposite. Far as I know the exception would be "I bring a sword" and throwing the money changers out of the temple, but those should be put in context.

I personally regard only the reported sayings of the Christ as pertaining to Christianity, but everything else as the desires of men to subvert Christianity to their own ends.

[thaibeachlovers]

5 hours ago, Heppinger said:

There are no Atheist's, everybody worships someone or something.

Very true. We've seen that in the climate change thing where one person has been, IMO, elevated to the status of a "saint" and the leader of the "climate change religion".

 

Many people worship money, status and celebrity.

[thaibeachlovers]

6 hours ago, teatime101 said:

An even bigger problem is they are also anti-science, thanks to their religious (and political) beliefs. Climate change denial is strongest among evangelical (mostly Republican) Christians.

Scientists in the past claimed the earth was at the center of the solar system. That is obviously incorrect, so why do you apparently think that scientists NOW, are right?

Science evolves as more information come apparent. They just do not yet have the information to prove the existence of God.

When science can prevent cancer or bring about world peace get back to us.

Edited May 3, 2020 by thaibeachlovers

[thaibeachlovers]

6 hours ago, Skallywag said:

But religious followers do not have free will, so they cannot exert it. 

They follow "Gods laws"  so their "will" is not their own

and you know that because...................................?

[thaibeachlovers]

7 hours ago, teatime101 said:

Laws don't 'rule' anything. It's just how the universe is shaped. The electromagnetic force (and the strong and weak nuclear forces) determines the structure and properties of individual atoms. Add gravity and light energy and, at least in our planet's case, living things can evolve. 

 

The 'Law of Gravity' is what it is because the universe formed in the way it did. Same goes for all the forces. They just are. In all the universe our planet is possibly unique. That gives some idea how unlikely it is that the laws 'rule our planet'. Why don't they 'rule' all the other planets and produce similar results?

 

The notion that 'laws rule' is anthropocentric. As is religion - the ultimate anthropocentric fantasy.

So, where did the "laws" you reference originate? Just happened out of nothing?

[Mike Teavee]

2 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

So, where did the "laws" you reference originate? Just happened out of nothing?

Laws aren't real things, they're just Man's way of expressing natural phenomena - Would a Law exist if lifeforms that could appreciate them didn't exist - Yes & No... No because there would be no need to express the phenomena as a "Law" nor anybody/thing to recognise it as such, Yes because the naturally occuring phenomena would still be there.

 

Take Gravity, Gravity isn't a law that was invented and loh & behold, came to exist, it's a direct result caused by the Earth spinning... if the Earth were to stop spinning, there would be no Gravity, Law or not...

 

 

[thaibeachlovers]

6 minutes ago, Mike Teavee said:

Laws aren't real things, they're just Man's way of expressing natural phenomena - Would a Law exist if lifeforms that could appreciate them didn't exist - Yes & No... No because there would be no need to express the phenomena as a "Law" nor anybody/thing to recognise it as such, Yes because the naturally occuring phenomena would still be there.

 

Take Gravity, Gravity isn't a law that was invented and loh & behold, came to exist, it's a direct result caused by the Earth spinning... if the Earth were to stop spinning, there would be no Gravity, Law or not...

 

 

Go deeper. How was the universe, life and everything created? Did it all just happen from nothing? Think about nothing, the absence of everything. Nothing can happen in nothing.

Eg Take a glass ball and evacuate everything from within it- every last molecule of matter and gas. Does anyone believe that something would emerge in that nothingness? To say something emerged from nothing to create life, the universe and everything is, IMO a nonsense.

[gargamon]

6 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Go deeper. How was the universe, life and everything created? Did it all just happen from nothing? Think about nothing, the absence of everything. Nothing can happen in nothing.

Eg Take a glass ball and evacuate everything from within it- every last molecule of matter and gas. Does anyone believe that something would emerge in that nothingness? To say something emerged from nothing to create life, the universe and everything is, IMO a nonsense.

So then you infer that your God created the universe. But, using your logic, go back even further and tell me where your God came from. Until you can do that, your argument is useless.

[Mike Teavee]

14 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Go deeper. How was the universe, life and everything created? Did it all just happen from nothing? Think about nothing, the absence of everything. Nothing can happen in nothing.

Eg Take a glass ball and evacuate everything from within it- every last molecule of matter and gas. Does anyone believe that something would emerge in that nothingness? To say something emerged from nothing to create life, the universe and everything is, IMO a nonsense.

And we're back to the "Chicken & Egg" argument of who/what created the Universe & who/what created them/it & who/what created them/it... repeat... 

 

I'm one of those (apparently Childish) people who believe that Big Bang led to the creation of the Earth, this theory adequately covers everything that happened the instance after Big Bang (including the "Creation" of Gravity), however what caused the "Big Bang" (assuming you believe in it) is a different thing altogether.

 

As an aside, watched a documentary on Flat Earthers the other day (Things you do when stuck inside all day), great bit right at the end where they set-up 3 posts some miles apart to shine a laser beam through & prove that it would hit at the same height, ended with them shaking their heads when they found out it didn't, however I expect they still believe the Earth is Flat (Some even believe we're in a big Dome ala Truman Show)

 

Edited May 3, 2020 by Mike Teavee

[thaibeachlovers]

8 minutes ago, Mike Teavee said:

And we're back to the "Chicken & Egg" argument of who/what created the Universe & who/what created them/it & who/what created them/it... repeat... 

 

I'm one of those (apparently Childish) people who believe that Big Bang led to the creation of the Earth, this theory adequately covers everything that happened the instance after Big Bang (including the "Creation" of Gravity), however what caused the "Big Bang" (assuming you believe in it) is a different thing altogether.

 

As an aside, watched a documentary on Flat Earthers the other day (Things you do when stuck inside all day), great bit right at the end where they set-up 3 posts some miles apart to shine a laser beam through & prove that it would hit at the same height, ended with them shaking their heads when they found out it didn't, however I expect they still believe the Earth is Flat (Some even believe we're in a big Dome ala Truman Show)

 

I do believe in the big bang as it explains everything. I also believe that the universe after it dies falls into a black hole and is reborn as a new universe.

I believe in a creator ( God ) as the force that started the first big bang, but I don't believe in "God" as religion does. I believe that God is so far beyond mere human understanding that we can't even imagine what God is.

[thaibeachlovers]

13 minutes ago, Mike Teavee said:

(Some even believe we're in a big Dome ala Truman Show)

I sometimes think I'm in one and the Corona thing is just a reality show. Do you know anyone that knows anyone that has Corona? I don't.

[yodsak]

[Mike Teavee]

19 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

I sometimes think I'm in one and the Corona thing is just a reality show. Do you know anyone that knows anyone that has Corona? I don't.

I know the Corona Virus is very real as I have a nephew who is working himself to death in one of the hospital wards dealing with it, but I do wonder if Social Media (especially Facebook) hasn't made it much worse than it could have been (bad it definitely is, this bad I'm not so sure)

 

Anyway, one for a completely different topic I think... We have enough to deal with in this one already ???? 

 

 

   

[CharlieH]

Trolls comments removed.

[thaibeachlovers]

1 hour ago, gargamon said:

So then you infer that your God created the universe. But, using your logic, go back even further and tell me where your God came from. Until you can do that, your argument is useless.

God is beyond logic, beyond understanding, beyond imagining, beyond human comprehension. If we knew what God is he/she/it wouldn't be God.

It's called faith for a reason.

[Skeptic7]

7 hours ago, Heppinger said:

I mean no disrespect nor is my intention to troll you.  You stated that the Bible and Quran are full of passages that contain violence, you should critique your comments before you post them as this comment is dishonest and could be considered trolling and disrespectful.  The Bible contains a small amount of passages that encourage violence, would be more accurate. You also stated that some religions require violence, is Christianity a religion you believe requires violence? 

Are you serious? The Bible is rife with violence, war, murder, blood sacrifice, infanticide, genocide, filicide, pestilence, racism and slavery...among other godly goodies like incest and misogyny, not to mention Hell. 

[mauGR1]

5 hours ago, sirineou said:

Anyway , that's all I am going to say on that subject, my response to this thread is that religion advocates violence and atheism does not, if you want to quible on the degree of violence you need to do it with someone else.  

That's completely untrue.

Violence is part of the animal life, but the lion stops killing when its stomach is full.

If we say that materialism is a consequence of being atheist, and greed is a consequence of materialism, and violence is a consequence of greed, there you have your answer.

Yes, it's possible to brainwash people with religion, and apparently much easier to brainwash people with materialism.

Now, i am not saying that religious people are "better" than atheists, but saying that religion advocates violence is poor reasoning imho.

[fredwiggy]

Some believe that the universe was created in an explosion of sorts, that matter was created out of nothing. That in itself is impossible. I, like others who believe, know that there was a creator. There are many questions I would like to have answers for, from why children get cancer to why there are gnats around my head now,bothering the <deleted> out of me. To think we are still paying because Adam bit an apple that he wasn't supposed to seems ridiculous. A vengeful God perhaps, because even though he gave us free will and we sometimes pay for it, why do the innocents that believe in him suffer? This is a test ,of faith. If you know the Bible, you know about Job. God took everything away from him ,yet he still believed, so he was rewarded in the end. If we believe, we are promised a better life, forever with him and others, where pain and suffering is non existent, maybe where we can eat whatever we want and not worry, maybe we will have all of our animals that have died with us. Maybe I can fish for big bass and have huge deer in my yard. Life is supposed to be short, so we can have faith in what's coming after. If we choose to not believe in him, we will be sent to a place where there are no friends, no love and only sorrow. This is one reason I also believe. I want to see my family and friends that have passed before me, hoping they also believed. If you look at the fact that everything that is alive needs air,food and water to live. That the earth is exactly where it should be in relation to the sun, that the moon regulates tides so is necessary, the intricacies of the brain and how it works, to the detail of a fly's wing,the good tastes of food, that there are thousands of species of different animals,plants and insects. That shows that there was a creator, and this just didn't "happen". I want to meet Jesus, and talk with him. Yes, it seems there will be a waiting line, but maybe in heaven there isn't time like we know it now. If it's forever, we can all wait. I can finally learn to play my guitars,and I know there will be music. This is temporary,and we need to live the best we can, without hurting others intentionally. The worst thing one can do, the unpardonable sin, is turning your back on God, thinking he isn't necessary or there waiting for us.

[gargamon]

40 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

God is beyond logic, beyond understanding, beyond imagining, beyond human comprehension. If we knew what God is he/she/it wouldn't be God.

It's called faith for a reason.

You call it faith, I call it brainwashing. And the simple fact that there are multiple religions, with billions of followers, each with a "god" that is different in many ways than the others, leads much credence to my viewpoint.