Expat group launches online petition calling for TM.30 to be scrapped

[Artisi]

2 hours ago, Wilsonandson said:

Not sure if it's been posted before. Helpful video.

Shame TVF don't do similar, considering they are relying on many expats etc to keep TVF afloat.

[lkv]

11 minutes ago, KhaoYai said:

No, I expect you to support anyone trying to help. The people behind this effort have far more experience of Thailand in general than either you or I do. I'm am pretty sure they know the difficulties in achieving success.

I think they haven't done their homework well.

 

If you broke your hand, would you expect me to support someone that was trying to fix your leg?

 

Let me ask you a question.

 

What do you think is the explanation of having a TM30 app already on the stores. What were they thinking?

 

Don't tell me they blew money developing apps because they had nothing better to do.

 

Think about that first, what were their motives to do so, then it will give you a better idea of what's really going on.

 

To hang on to power longer and to prevent revolutions a la Hong Kong, if you want to know the answer.

 

And the long term visitors got a little stressed now. Hmm.

Edited July 29, 2019 by lkv

[Andreasssen]

This is a very good attempt to get attention to the issues with this rule, in my opinion. And a much better strategy than whine on TV about every small thing...

I am Norwegian and met my thai wife in 2005, while on holiday. We married in 2006 and I cancelled my apartment in Norway and moved in with her and her family in Korat when we married.

At the time I worked at sea for a Norwegian company, fishing. These trips were 2-6 months at sea and 2 months holiday. Since I never had more than 2 months off, I never bothered with a Non Immigrant visa, since I could legally stay 90 days each time without a visa. (30 days + 60 days extension of stay.)

From that time, until 2013, I never heard about the 24 hour reporting rule and no one at immigration informed me about this when I applied for my extension of stay. 

But in 2013, when I went to get my extension, they confiscated my passport, told me that something was wrong and that I had to wait. I had my wife with me, and we both got worried because of the strict demeanour of the immigration officer.

After a while, they led us to a back room and told me I had to pay a 2000 baht fine for not reporting my stay. I asked what rule this was, and they said it was an old rule that they had started to enforce.

They added that it was really my wife who had to pay this and that she was lucky that she did not get 3 days in jail as well. So I jokingly said, through my clenched teeth, that it would be nice to have 3 days off to do what I wanted.

They laughed and said 500 baht was enough, and that was that ...

Anyway, this sudden enforcement of an old rule seemed unfortunate to me. Not only for myself, but for all other expats who did not know about this either. And there are still a lot of travellers and tourists who doesn't know about this, and reacts with disbelief because it is so impractical.

Since 2014, because of an accident, I don't work with fishing any more. I stay all year in Thailand on the one year extension of stay as married, which means I report my address every 90 days.
I have also had a work permit in Thailand for several years and I pay taxes to Thailand with pleasure. 

We should all sacrifice a bit, in my opinion, to achieve better security in any society. But I can not see how this 24 hour rule helps at all. For someone with bad intentions, it is very easy to get around this rule anyway.

I support this petition since it is very impractical.

As an example, we live very close to the Buriram border, only 1,3 km. And we have family and friends who live on the other side. If we spend a night at their house, they would have to report that we are staying there at the Buriram immigration, which would take half a day. As it is now, it is not worth it to spend the night at a 70 year old aunts house, since it would put her through too much hassle.

And when we return to our house, we would have to do the same.

This does not seem like a good solution to me.

Every society have their share of unfortunate law and rules. All in all Thailand is my favourite country and I could never imagine living anywhere else. But I am also in favour of any improvement that is possible.

I believe it would be very positive for Thailand as a whole, to re-evaluate this rule. Not only for expats who live here, but also for tourists who like to travel around the country.

People should not be scared to voice their opinions politely!

Best Regards
Espen Andreassen
Korat   

[Joe Mcseismic]

3 hours ago, rexall said:

I don't know if the story has "legs," but if foreign media ever takes an interest, Thailand could gain a reputation as oppressive, unwelcoming and unfriendly.  "The Land of Smiles . . . But be very careful!  When people show you their teeth, they may be getting ready to bite you!" 

I've heard of much more interesting stories not reaching the media.........

[lkv]

10 minutes ago, Andreasssen said:

but also for tourists who like to travel around the country.

Tourists will not even know they are being reported, it's the hotel's responsability anywhere they travel.

[Andreasssen]

6 minutes ago, lkv said:

Tourists will not even know they are being reported, it's the hotel's responsability anywhere they travel.

It they stay at hotels, yes. But not if they stay at a friends house.

[lkv]

1 minute ago, Andreasssen said:

It they stay at hotels, yes. But not if they stay at a friends house.

Well then the friend can decide to report or not report his friend, or tell him or not tell him and let him enjoy his holiday.

 

The majority of tourists don't stay with friends, they stay in hotels and AirBnbs.

 

And AirBnb is illegal anyway to begin with so....

[lamyai3]

11 minutes ago, Joe Mcseismic said:

I've heard of much more interesting stories not reaching the media.........

It's to do with critical mass. Once something starts to have a negative impact on enough people, it becomes a story. 

[lkv]

2 minutes ago, lamyai3 said:

It's to do with critical mass. 

Exactly. And I am failing to see the critical mass. This is the issue.

Edited July 29, 2019 by lkv

[Andreasssen]

2 minutes ago, lkv said:

Well then the friend can decide to report or not report his friend, or tell him or not tell him and let him enjoy his holiday.

 

The majority of tourists don't stay with friends, they stay in hotels and AirBnbs.

 

And AirBnb is illegal anyway to begin with so....

You are already showing how impractical this can be in some situations.

[Arkady]

Although the current provision relating to TM30 dates back to the 1979 Immigration Act, I believe it actually pre-dates that by some decades and was cut and paste from earlier Immigration Acts and was possibly in the original Immigration Act of 1927.  I am sure it would have been enforced prior to the 1979 Act, as it seems to be in line with various measures the Siamese government put in place to try to control the Chinese population (particularly the criminal triad elements of it) that was growing rapidly in the first half of the 20th century, until more definitive measures were put in place in the 1950s to reduce Chinese immigration to a trickle. Still, I have no recollection of it being enforced in the early 1980s when I first travelled around as a tourist and can only assume that it was already pretty much redundant legislation when it was carried over into the 1979 Act.  By that time mass Chinese immigration had been halted for a generation by then and that most Chinese residents already had Thai citizenship. In addition the number of foreign tourists was relatively small in 1979 and they were unlikely to have been seen as enough of a threat to merit such a draconian measure that was was not even enforced.

 

Basically my view is that is really is archaic legislation that was designed for a purpose other than the use that is suddenly being put to today.

[lkv]

5 minutes ago, Andreasssen said:

You are already showing how impractical this can be in some situations.

Yes, some situations. Limited situations. Things will run smoothly in time, just like they do in China.

[Joe Mcseismic]

7 minutes ago, lamyai3 said:

It's to do with critical mass. Once something starts to have a negative impact on enough people, it becomes a story. 

That "critical mass" will never be reached. Not enough people.

It doesn't affect real tourists and, as you can see on this thread, there are a few posters wondering what all the fuss is about.

 

Many of us live within twenty minutes of the immigration office. I can see why those that live hours away could be annoyed by it. but there just aren't the numbers.

Maybe pray to St.Jude.

[lkv]

4 minutes ago, Arkady said:

Basically my view is that is really is archaic legislation that was designed for a purpose other than the use that is suddenly being put to today.

I totally agree, but it doesn't affect tourism, it only affects long term visitors, the ones without PR, because PR holders don't have to go through any of this.

 

So is there a critical mass there?

[newnative]

3 hours ago, rexall said:

The point is not about people such as yourself who don't follow the rules and don't suffer for it.  I lived (legally) in Pattaya 1998-2003 and never did a 90 day report or a TM30.  Never knew I was supposed to.  Years later, in Isaan, it became clear I was expected and required to file 90 day reports, and so began doing them.  Still never knew anything about a TM30 and never filed one until last year when all of the chatter about it was impossible to ignore.

But, none of that is the point.  So, I was lucky, I guess. Some people are being fined and inconvenienced for not filing.

       I think it is incorrect to say I am not following the rules--which seem to vary from office to office.  I do my 90 day reports and my yearly extensions and I have never once been late.  I have never used an agent or done anything 'under the table' and I have the required 800,000 baht in the right type of Thai bank account. Never touch it.  I have a TM30 on file for my current address.  My Immigration Office has not required that I file another TM30 when I travel so I am not doing something that is not required.  I just did my 1 year extension in June and my most recent 90 day report was a couple weeks ago--no problems with either. No mention of the TM30 at either visit.  So, again, if it ain't broke...

[Andreasssen]

7 minutes ago, newnative said:

I do my 90 day reports

Not all districts require the 24 hr report when you arrive from another country, if you do the 90 day report. This is how it is for me in Korat.

But if I spend the night in another district, I have to do it.

[Stokakrishna]

Good luck trying talking sense to dimwitted bureaucrats

[jbob]

expats are also known as aliens and if aliens came and started making demands their welcome would be short lived

[denby45]

Why would you mention Airbnb in the letter. That will certainly get their backs up as they view it as an illegal entity. Many are  in fact using it illegally by renting out accommodation on short term (less than one month) without an hotel license. Better to remove that reference completely.

 

Den

[Andreasssen]

6 minutes ago, jbob said:

expats are also known as aliens and if aliens came and started making demands their welcome would be short lived

It's not demands. It is a petition, which means a written formal request, signed by a certain amount of people with an appeal to authority with respect, to a particular cause.

[Arkady]

11 hours ago, newatthis said:

How does a retired person come under S 34?

 

Section 34

Aliens entering into the kingdom for a temporary stay may enter for the below listed activities:

1. Diplomatic or Consular Missions
2. Performance of official duties
3. Touring
4. Sporting
5. Business
6. Investing under the concurrence of the Ministries and Departments concerned.
7. Investing or other activities relating to investing subject to the provisions of the law on investment promotion.
8. Transit journey.
9. Being the person in charge of the crew of a conveyance coming to port, station, or area in the Kingdom.
10. Study or observation.
11. Mass media.
12. Missionary work under the concurrence of the Ministries and departments concerned.
13. Scientific research or training or teach in a Research Institute in the Kingdom.
14. The practice of skilled handicraft or as a specialist
15. Other activities as prescribed in the Ministerial Regulations.

 

There were no O or O-A visas then and retirement was not yet envisaged as a reason to enter the Kingdom for a temporary stay.  That all came later under ministerial regulations.  Therefore a retired person who enters the Kingdom for a temporary stay other than for tourism, i.e. to reside temporarily as a retiree, does so under Section 34.15.

[Joe Mcseismic]

2 minutes ago, Andreasssen said:

It's not demands. It is a petition, which means a written formal request, signed by a certain amount of people with an appeal to authority with respect, to a particular cause.

Yes. I know that and you know that, but, do you really think that the Thai bureaucracy will see it other than criticism?

[Andreasssen]

3 minutes ago, Joe Mcseismic said:

Yes. I know that and you know that, but, do you really think that the Thai bureaucracy will see it other than criticism?

I would never be afraid to voice my opinion in a polite manner because I fear how it may be perceived.

[lkv]

I want you guys to Google: Visa crackdown to Stay.

 

I am not allowed to link it here nor quote from it because it's from Bangkok Post.

 

Read it carefully.

 

The idea is this : with all the facilities Immigration is now providing, if foreigners choose to stay in Thailand secretly, they will be treated as ill-intentioned people and arrested. 

Edited July 29, 2019 by lkv

[Joe Mcseismic]

1 minute ago, Andreasssen said:

I would never be afraid to voice my opinion in a polite manner because I fear how it may be perceived.

Well...........bully for you.

[Arkady]

11 hours ago, Bangkok Barry said:

 

Everyone who hasn't taken up citizenship is in Thailand on a temporary stay, the length dictated by the visa they have. I notice that those supporting a Thai family are not included above, maybe on the grounds that they are not temporary visitors. But they are.

Those supporting a Thai family are indeed temporary visitors. They are given visas or extensions of not more than 12 months as provided for temporary visitors under the Immigration Act.  As in the case of retirees, their grounds for entering the Kingdom are specified in Section 34.15,  "Other activities as prescribed in the Ministerial Regulations."

[Arkady]

12 hours ago, schlemmi said:

Article 37 (3) (4) states the foreinger has to report to the local police station. It does not state has to report to the Immigrarion. It also allows the exception for those foringers staying under the reasons defined in Article 34.

 

Actually Section 37 does not allow a blanket exemption for foreigners who entered the Kingdom for temporary stays on grounds specified in Section 34.  The translation appears to say this but is poor.  If you refer to the Thai, it is clear that the exemptions can only be given by the secretary general.

[lkv]

So to clarify on my previous post.

 

Any inconvenience that may be experienced by foreigners in regards to TM30, is outweighed by the Bureau's success in combatting transnational crime.

 

To give you a glimpse of the dialogue.

 

That was Big Joke's line, expect Big Oud's line to be the same.

[BestB]

59 minutes ago, lkv said:

I totally agree, but it doesn't affect tourism, it only affects long term visitors, the ones without PR, because PR holders don't have to go through any of this.

 

So is there a critical mass there?

 But it does affect tourists who stay longer than 30 days or who have any kind of dealings with immigration. 

 

I also understand the need to keep track of foreigners but perhaps there is a better way? When you do your early extensions or even 90 day reports , is it not enough? 

 

What about people on business visa and business ? Have they not proven to be trustworthy and need to report each and every time ?

 

They pay personal taxes have personal tax number , have credit cards, loans which is more than majority of thai do or have , have work permits and yet need to report as if some criminal out on bond 

[Andreasssen]

3 minutes ago, BestB said:

also understand the need to keep track of foreigners but perhaps there is a better way? When you do your early extensions or even 90 day reports , is it not enough? 

 

What about people on business visa and business ? Have they not proven to be trustworthy and need to report each and every time ?

 

They pay personal taxes have personal tax number , have credit cards, loans which is more than majority of thai do or have , have work permits and yet need to report as if some criminal out on bond 

Very good points