Where digital nomads can legally work in Asia

[Sticky Wicket]

2 minutes ago, LivinLOS said:

Except that is against the law.. You dont get to pick your tax base. 

It's a very grey area 

[Sticky Wicket]

1 minute ago, LivinLOS said:

Factually wrong. 

 

If you have passive income from a non Thai source this would be correct, if you have to work for that income, you are working while physically inside the kingdom, a per a physical presence test, and you need a work permit and owe income taxes from day 1.

again semantics re 'work'

[Sticky Wicket]

I wonder what percentage of elite visa holders are digital nomads.

More than 95% imo

[LivinLOS]

2 minutes ago, Sticky Wicket said:

It's a win win for 3rd world countries with young intelligent vibrant people putting money into the economy, whilst not affecting the employment of the locals. 

You dont get to define what they want, if they wanted it, they would make a visa class for it. 

The recently revamped the smart visa (and didnt include online freelancers) they recently added the elite 5 years, and didnt include online freelancers, they recently introduced a higher wealth 10 year retirement, and didnt include online freelancers.. 

The fact they are making these changes, and not including online workers, shows clearly that they are not opening this up like nomads want them to. 

[Sticky Wicket]

Just now, LivinLOS said:

You dont get to define what they want, if they wanted it, they would make a visa class for it. 

The recently revamped the smart visa (and didnt include online freelancers) they recently added the elite 5 years, and didnt include online freelancers, they recently introduced a higher wealth 10 year retirement, and didnt include online freelancers.. 

The fact they are making these changes, and not including online workers, shows clearly that they are not opening this up like nomads want them to. 

I'm talking generally about all the local countries, not Thailand specifically. 

However I agree with your point.

I just don't think they want to open pandora's box in that regard

[LivinLOS]

2 minutes ago, Sticky Wicket said:

again semantics re 'work'

nothing to do with semantics.. Passive and active income is routinely taxed differently in  developed countries also. 

The only people who call this a grey area are the ones who want to break the clearly defined law. Its pure self interest. “It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it!” - Upton Sinclair.

Its comical to me how so many nomads claim great success (yet spend days of thier valuable time chasing shoddy visa options) and claim 'if only there was a way I could be legal I would pay taxes' and yet, when shown iglu and a way they absolutely can be legal and get red carpet treatment for a cost of a few 100 bucks a month, suddenly its 'not realistic' etc etc.. 

[gearbox]

6 minutes ago, Sticky Wicket said:

It's a very grey area 

Indeed it is. 

 

Technically it is very difficult to monitor and enforce esp if you don't frequent coworker spaces and other public digital nomad places. 

[gearbox]

7 minutes ago, Sticky Wicket said:

I'm talking generally about all the local countries, not Thailand specifically. 

However I agree with your point.

I just don't think they want to open pandora's box in that regard

They may get digital nomad visas if you agree to have your tax base here and remit all your income, plus act as a Thai resident and business entity...and there would be probably a minimum income too.

 

At the same time if you are working with foreign companies they may not be happy to work with a Thai resident or Thai business entity, it may make their payments and processes more difficult.

 

Just do what you do now ????

[LivinLOS]

14 minutes ago, gearbox said:

Indeed it is. 

 

Technically it is very difficult to monitor and enforce esp if you don't frequent coworker spaces and other public digital nomad places. 

enforcement is weak to non existent, proving it is very difficult and they also dont need bad tourism PR.. 

 

the law isnt a grey area, its clear, and the people responsible for that law, which isnt immigration its the min of labour and dept of employment, have been unusually consistent and clear when questioned. 

[RAZZELL]

47 minutes ago, gearbox said:

I'm on a retirement O-A visa here and definitely not paying any direct taxation here in Thailand. 

 

Many of these youngsters work and pay taxes in retirees' countries and jurisdictions, and so paying their pensions too.  

And many don't pay tax anywhere.

 

Heard it all before from the FIFO and Oil guys.

 

All very clever not paying tax until it bites them on the arse when they can't get healthcare or get legitimate visas, PR etc

 

RAZZ

Edited July 29, 2019 by RAZZELL

[SS1]

8 hours ago, sunnyboy2018 said:

Nomad = freeloader / tax dodger. Unemployed or unemployable in their own country. Give us a break. Why would anybody who is a skilled on line worker choose Thailand? Except for the girlie scene. Work at home. Build a pension and come here on holiday. To me DMs are just above the rung of begpackers.

Ridiculous post, you have no idea.. Digital nomads also consist of successful entrepreneurs and very talented remote employees, whom employers are fighting for in Western countries (e.g. software developers). Remote work is getting more and more popular around the world and digital specialists have increasing choice for their physical location. Sure, there are also those pathetic ones selling crap and scamming others, but it's just a fraction of the population and they don't last long. 

Why would they choose Thailand? give me one reason why not. I can't quickly think of a better place to place myself if launching an online startup. Let me guess, you've worked in a factory for your entire life and now jealous seeing others have figured it out easier? 

[roquefort]

9 hours ago, sunnyboy2018 said:

Nomad = freeloader / tax dodger. Unemployed or unemployable in their own country. Give us a break. Why would anybody who is a skilled on line worker choose Thailand? Except for the girlie scene. Work at home. Build a pension and come here on holiday. To me DMs are just above the rung of begpackers.

Not much nuance there, mate.

 

The OP was asking about the legality of working in those countries i.e. visa and work permit, nothing to do with taxation. But since you brought it up, why anyone in their right mind would stay in a high tax country to be plundered by a bloated, profilgate government when there are so many other options around the world is a mystery to me.

[theonetrueaussie]

6 hours ago, LivinLOS said:

nothing to do with semantics.. Passive and active income is routinely taxed differently in  developed countries also. 

The only people who call this a grey area are the ones who want to break the clearly defined law. Its pure self interest. “It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it!” - Upton Sinclair.

Its comical to me how so many nomads claim great success (yet spend days of thier valuable time chasing shoddy visa options) and claim 'if only there was a way I could be legal I would pay taxes' and yet, when shown iglu and a way they absolutely can be legal and get red carpet treatment for a cost of a few 100 bucks a month, suddenly its 'not realistic' etc etc.. 

Lets face it IGLU is an absolute joke, You would pay FAR more taxes to iglu then you would back in a western country...This is why most do not go with them! Just another ripoff for westerners. 

As for which countries you can go to, Vietnam does 1 year business visas for 500usd. FAR cheaper then the elite visa and cost of living and quality of life is far greater then thailand. 

[NightSky]

10 hours ago, simon43 said:

The problem in Thailand is really one of available visas...

there is the elite visa although you must already have some savings available or be a successful digital nomad earning enough to pay for the visa

[LivinLOS]

40 minutes ago, theonetrueaussie said:

Lets face it IGLU is an absolute joke, You would pay FAR more taxes to iglu then you would back in a western country...This is why most do not go with them! Just another ripoff for westerners. 

As for which countries you can go to, Vietnam does 1 year business visas for 500usd. FAR cheaper then the elite visa and cost of living and quality of life is far greater then thailand. 

If you only knew what my costs to run a legal company are 'back in the west' compared to iglu its a drop in the bucket..

 

Iglu is more than just income taxes, and social costs, and sales tax, and accounting, and visa lawyers and processing, and working space, and and and.. 

But here we are again, another example where the claims of well off nomads who contribute to the economy, yet seem to think a few hundred bucks a month is a ridiculous fee to be fully legal. Of course if iglu really are operating with fat margins its a perfect business opportunity for someone to do it cheaper and better, any takers ?? No just complainers. 

[LivinLOS]

1 hour ago, SS1 said:

Ridiculous post, you have no idea.. Digital nomads also consist of successful entrepreneurs and very talented remote employees, whom employers are fighting for in Western countries (e.g. software developers). Remote work is getting more and more popular around the world and digital specialists have increasing choice for their physical location. Sure, there are also those pathetic ones selling crap and scamming others, but it's just a fraction of the population and they don't last long. 

 

But these successful people and talented remote employees would rather spend days travelling round asia begging the latest short stay visa, waste large parts of thier working week in ED classes or self defense, instead of paying a small fee to be legal.. 

 

See how that doesnt add up ??? Successful people have a value on thier time, they dont tolerate the nonsense of constant border hops and lies to obtain visas. They pay for a service using something thier time generates for them in short order. 

[Unify]

11 hours ago, sunnyboy2018 said:

Nomad = freeloader / tax dodger. Unemployed or unemployable in their own country. Give us a break. Why would anybody who is a skilled on line worker choose Thailand? Except for the girlie scene. Work at home. Build a pension and come here on holiday. To me DMs are just above the rung of begpackers.

I ran a (mostly) online business for many years in the US. Your post shows your lack of understanding.

 

Why would I tether myself to a particular location in the US, where it's expensive to live, healthcare costs are outrageous, and it's cold and rainy a good part of the year?

 

Why choose Thailand? The same reasons anybody else would choose Thailand. Warm weather, cheap living compared to the US, tasty food, friendly people, and a lot of things to do and see. And most importantly, less expenses mean I'm free to do with my time, as I please.

 

How am I freeloading or tax dodging? I pay taxes according to the law.

[PerkinsCuthbert]

11 hours ago, sunnyboy2018 said:

Nomad = freeloader / tax dodger. Unemployed or unemployable in their own country. Give us a break. Why would anybody who is a skilled on line worker choose Thailand? Except for the girlie scene. Work at home. Build a pension and come here on holiday. To me DMs are just above the rung of begpackers.

That's because you are either trolling for outraged posts, or you are ignorant, and wilfully so. I'd say the latter.

[stephen tracy]

I too am a "digital nomad". I work for a company with its HQ in Iraq so I am rarely there and almost always work remotely. I tried Bangkok as a base for a few years, and although I think its a great city, the constant visa runs became a nuisance. I spoke to two different lawyers to see if tere was anyway I could arrange to pay some sort of tax in exchange for a more vaild visa but the said since the junta came into power, even getting a business visa was no longer gonna be a viable option. One said that he could take my money and try but that I'd be wasting my money because I wouldn't get it back if the application was rejected. So I've been floating around for a year and half looking for another good place to set up camp. I was recently impressed with Mexico City. Cheap, fun and Spanish is easier than Thai. 

[stephen tracy]

14 hours ago, sunnyboy2018 said:

Nomad = freeloader / tax dodger. Unemployed or unemployable in their own country. Give us a break. Why would anybody who is a skilled on line worker choose Thailand? Except for the girlie scene. Work at home. Build a pension and come here on holiday. To me DMs are just above the rung of begpackers.

Because you are in Thailand for the "girlie scene" doesn't mean everyone else is. As working remotely? Welcome to the 21st century, Get used to it. I work for the military and have done for years, and I do it all remotely, with the odd exception of meetings now and again, which I'm flown in for. Your just another angry old man in a bar. 

[Unify]

7 hours ago, LivinLOS said:

You dont get to define what they want, if they wanted it, they would make a visa class for it. 

The recently revamped the smart visa (and didnt include online freelancers) they recently added the elite 5 years, and didnt include online freelancers, they recently introduced a higher wealth 10 year retirement, and didnt include online freelancers.. 

The fact they are making these changes, and not including online workers, shows clearly that they are not opening this up like nomads want them to. 

By this logic, the fact that they require some travelers to carry ฿20,000 into the country shows clearly that they don't want people with credit cards to enter the country.

 

My guess is that some of the higher ups don't really understand online workers, and others don't know what to do about it.

 

Let'sface it. If you are a sales rep on vacation, and your colleague from back home emails and asks where you left the TPS report, if you answer, you're technically breaking the law, right?

 

Or what if you're on the beach working on the TPS report? Responding to a customer inquiry?

 

Does anyone really think the laws are in place to prevent people from doing these kinds of things? I don't.

 

Add to this, there are many people openly operating YouTube channels, in Thailand. They're shooting video in Thailand, and talking about Thailand. Some of them have even interacted with the police about various matters. No one from immigration seems interested in this, as obvious as it is.

 

And there was the incident in Chiang Mai where a co-working space was raided. The people in the space were sitting, working on computers. Everyone was detained and then let go, saying it was a big misunderstanding.

 

At this point there seems to be no immigration interest in people who are doing online work. Does anyone have a single, verified account of someone being in trouble with immigration for being a digital nomad?

[Unify]

53 minutes ago, LivinLOS said:

 

But these successful people and talented remote employees would rather spend days travelling round asia begging the latest short stay visa, waste large parts of thier working week in ED classes or self defense, instead of paying a small fee to be legal.. 

 

See how that doesnt add up ??? Successful people have a value on thier time, they dont tolerate the nonsense of constant border hops and lies to obtain visas. They pay for a service using something thier time generates for them in short order. 

Your assumptions that digital nomads all hop around Asia begging for short stay visas, or having to do constant border hops, or ED visas are incorrect.

[gearbox]

25 minutes ago, Unify said:

I ran a (mostly) online business for many years in the US. Your post shows your lack of understanding.

 

Why would I tether myself to a particular location in the US, where it's expensive to live, healthcare costs are outrageous, and it's cold and rainy a good part of the year?

 

Why choose Thailand? The same reasons anybody else would choose Thailand. Warm weather, cheap living compared to the US, tasty food, friendly people, and a lot of things to do and see. And most importantly, less expenses mean I'm free to do with my time, as I please.

 

How am I freeloading or tax dodging? I pay taxes according to the law.

I've seen quite a few freeloaders among retirees. There were Aussies in Cambodia boasting that the last time they had a "proper job" was in their twenties, yet they were on a full Australian OAP.  Not to mention the bunch married to girls 30-40 younger than them, which are going to receive part of their pension after they die. That's 30-40 years of extra freeloading..

 

In short, don't take offence and feel the need to justify your actions and way of life. Live the life you want.

[Thaidream]

2 hours ago, SS1 said:

idiculous post, you have no idea.. Digital nomads also consist of successful entrepreneurs and very talented remote employees, whom employers are fighting for in Western countries (e.g. software developers). Remote work is getting more and more popular around the world and digital specialists have increasing choice for their physical location. Sure, there are also those pathetic ones selling crap and scamming others, but it's just a fraction of the population and they don't last long. 

Why would they choose Thailand? give me one reason why not. I can't quickly think of a better place to place myself if launching an online startup. Let me guess, you've worked in a factory for your entire life and now jealous seeing others have figured it out easier?

I would agree with you up to a point.  IMO- the key is to be part of an established enterprise in which that enterprise allows remote work but pays your salary and as such pays for a pension and healthcare as well as allowing a person to work in their specialty as a freelancer.

 

IMO- not everyone who works for themselves as DN will survive- Unless one is extremely creative; extremely talented and has the right connections- they will not make the huge salaries that an American or European Company will pay for this expertise.  At some point- some of these people will have missed out on many years of contributions to a soclal security scheme or a  pension scheme and end up being less able to retire at  an early age.

 

Then there is the issue of over all job loss- as technology advances- more and more people will become redundant and thus countries will have a lesser tax base and huge social problems will develop. IMO- there has been no real planning for the future on what affect technology will have on the World as a whole.  At some point- just because you can do it- maybe it might be better for the World if you didn't build it or invent it.

 

Unless a nomad has the backing of a Company or Enterprise head office- working and living in Thailand is a hassle-  Thailand , much to their detriment, just does not want anyone under the age of 50 without sonsorship living here-unless you get the Elite Visa. If Thailand  really was creative- it could establish a special visa category for these people but as part of the program- a tie in with a local enterprise  so they could  take advantage of the expertise.

 

The only relatively hassle free way to stay in Thailand if one is under 50 is either marry a Thai and either get a multi Entry Non O Visa from a local consulate or the elite Visa. If married- one can also send 40K each month to a Thai bank or deposit 400K.

 

If I was a DN- and unsponsored by an entity  and under 50 I would probably rotate my residence between Thailand; Cambodia; Laos; Vietnam and the Phillipnes.  Howevere- I would be very reluctant to do this for more than 5 years and never over 10 years unless I had a proven gig that was making me millions of dollars.

 

[LivinLOS]

16 minutes ago, stephen tracy said:

I too am a "digital nomad". I work for a company with its HQ in Iraq so I am rarely there and almost always work remotely. I tried Bangkok as a base for a few years, and although I think its a great city, the constant visa runs became a nuisance. I spoke to two different lawyers to see if tere was anyway I could arrange to pay some sort of tax in exchange for a more vaild visa but the said since the junta came into power, even getting a business visa was no longer gonna be a viable option. One said that he could take my money and try but that I'd be wasting my money because I wouldn't get it back if the application was rejected. So I've been floating around for a year and half looking for another good place to set up camp. I was recently impressed with Mexico City. Cheap, fun and Spanish is easier than Thai. 

www.iglu.net 

[LivinLOS]

3 minutes ago, Unify said:

Your assumptions that digital nomads all hop around Asia begging for short stay visas, or having to do constant border hops, or ED visas are incorrect.

And yet thats exactly what these threads are repeatedly about.. 

 

'Successful nomads' who somehow cant afford a few 100 bucks a month in costs to have the red carpet treatment of a BOI umbrella company.. And whose time is better spent begging visas around the region, doing ED courses, doing self defense courses etc. Their valuable time is best spent seeking all these short stay options it seems. 

 

Theres plenty who do it legally, and arrange a work permit and have the right visa.. For them its easy, but thats not the subject of these threads is it ???

[gearbox]

2 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

 

 

IMO- not everyone who works for themselves as DN will survive- Unless one is extremely creative; extremely talented and has the right connections- they will not make the huge salaries that an American or European Company will pay for this expertise.  At some point- some of these people will have missed out on many years of contributions to a soclal security scheme or a  pension scheme and end up being less able to retire at  an early age.

 

This is not true in many cases - the DN could be on the payroll as a permanent employee of a big company, which will pay in their jurisdiction all required taxes, pension schemes etc.  A growing number of tech companies allow employees to work this way - they can move around as long as they produce the deliverables. 

[LivinLOS]

1 minute ago, gearbox said:

This is not true in many cases - the DN could be on the payroll as a permanent employee of a big company, which will pay in their jurisdiction all required taxes, pension schemes etc.  A growing number of tech companies allow employees to work this way - they can move around as long as they produce the deliverables. 

You cannot legally work for a non Thai company while in Thailand and pay taxes outside of Thailand. The law is clear. 

 

When working in Thailand this is then domestic sourced income and requires tax from day 1, not 180 which is for passive incomes when remitted into the country in the year the money was earned. If such a company wished to remain legal they would need to open a branch office to engage the remote worker, something thats highly unlikely and massive costs. 

 

I think these rules are stupid and deny Thailand large amounts of revenue and developing a skilled startup economy, but these are the laws they have choosen. 

[gearbox]

1 minute ago, LivinLOS said:

You cannot legally work for a non Thai company while in Thailand and pay taxes outside of Thailand. The law is clear. 

 

 

You cannot drive a motorbike legally without a helmet yet I see every day tons of farangs doing it.  Not to mention that catching you to drive without helmet is much easier than proving that you work online for a non Thai company.

[LivinLOS]

Just now, gearbox said:

 

You cannot drive a motorbike legally without a helmet yet I see every day tons of farangs doing it.  Not to mention that catching you to drive without helmet is much easier than proving that you work online for a non Thai company.

Right.. But no one seems to keep saying its legal to ride without a helmet, its a grey area, the law isnt clear, police dont really mind, etc etc etc 

 

Its this dishonesty about the entire thing that needs correcting.. If nomads want to admit sure, I know the law (which is why they advise not telling immigration or others, etc etc because they do know) says I cant do it, I know I am avading Thai taxes, I know I am lieing to the host country but screw em.. Well fine.. But you cant take the moral high road while obviously abusing the law of a place your a guest.