Solar Power

[KhaoYai]

If a full solar energy package can be installed for 100,000 or even 200,000 then I'd say its about time Thailand made it compulsory for all new builds. I would also guess the cost would probably be much lower when applied commercially.

 

Finding the money to retro fit a system would be difficult for a lot of Thai people - given the average salary but if its included in the price of a house, I doubt the mortgage payments would be drastically higher.

[eisfeld]

13 minutes ago, KhaoYai said:

The PEA get a good deal don't they - they sell to me at 5 baht but only pay me 1 baht? ????

Like I said those numbers are not correct, it's more like 4.25 and 1.8 THB. Still a good deal for them, but in the end it depends on how they count it which I didn't find out yet. If they just take the balance at the end of the month then it's a not so bad deal for consumers as well.

[eisfeld]

5 minutes ago, KhaoYai said:

If a full solar energy package can be installed for 100,000 or even 200,000 then I'd say its about time Thailand made it compulsory for all new builds. I would also guess the cost would probably be much lower when applied commercially.

 

Finding the money to retro fit a system would be difficult for a lot of Thai people - given the average salary but if its included in the price of a house, I doubt the mortgage payments would be drastically higher.

You have to consider that electricity selling is a big money maker for the government. They will not give that up easily.

[eisfeld]

15 minutes ago, Crossy said:

The hybrid unit (or one of its stablemates) allows you to set priorities for solar, battery and grid, so it ought to do the job out of the box.

 

The Arduino idea was to use a number of the 300W micro-inverters and simply disconnect them one at a time based upon export power being non-zero. 300W steps are pretty coarse but it's do able.

A bunch of microinverters wont be a good solution for reliability reasons. I would look at a proper inverter and see if the max output can be set via modbus. But of course if that hybrid system can prioritize automatically then that's best. The OP though doesn't want batteries.

[KhaoYai]

Just now, eisfeld said:

You have to consider that electricity selling is a big money maker for the government. They will not give that up easily.

I accept that but we all have to wake up and do something about climate change and that includes the Thai government.  They seem to have made some token attempts at tackling the issue but nowhere near enough. Given that their capital city could be under water in the next 10 to 20 years, I find their lax attitude very puzzling.  Instead of making serious attempts at contributing to tackling climate change - they seem to be more interested in constructing flood defences and additional drainage.

 

Whilst I don't condemn them for dealing with the potential rise in sea level - prevention will always be better than cure.

[Crossy]

At present it's just a thought experiment, our daytime loading is pretty constant so I could reasonably easily set up a system that won't export.

 

If net metering is really a non-starter and the deal on My Solar Roof really is as bad as is being cited (which would explain the poor take up) I'm more likely to go with an off-grid system with grid backup for dull days / higher loads (water heaters would use grid power exclusively). OK it will need batteries which wear out, but I can use cheaper inverters needing no approval from anyone.

 

Of course with batteries we also get the UPS functionality meaning we are totally grid independant, even here (only 50km outside BKK) power failures are common enough that our genset gets regular exercise.

 

 

 

 

[ArranP]

28 minutes ago, KhaoYai said:

Thanks for your post, good to hear from someone who's currently installing. Obviously nobody's electric usage is the same and I've never lived at the house longer than a month with all the items that consume power that I have now. Even so, I would hope my bill is less than 6750 per month.

 

Still, what you have posted give a lot to think about.

 

The PEA get a good deal don't they - they sell to me at 5 baht but only pay me 1 baht? ????

 

If I can install a system for 100,000 or even 150,000 that's fine.  As for payback - well it would be nice but I'm not installing solar power to save money - that is hopefully a byproduct.

 

As another poster commented on here, is to not opt for the feed-in tarrif, simply run the inverter back through the one meter, it will run backwards if the inverter is producing more than you are consuming, this way you get your 5 baht per kwh ????  I've not looked into this in any detail.

[ArranP]

On 8/18/2019 at 3:48 PM, KhaoYai said:

On the subject of meters running backwards, I can understand how that works.  I remember years ago going to a house in the UK where the old style disc meter had been taken off its mountings and was hanging horizontally. When I asked why this was, I was told that the meter had initially been broken off its mounting board accidentally and they'd discovered that it stopped moving.  I found that a little hard to believe until I cranked over and looked. There was clearly load being used as several appliances in the house were switched on yet the wheel inside the meter was stationary. I guess they are driven by some form of magnetic field?

 

Surely at some point Thailand will move on to digital meters - I doubt they will run backwards. If that's the case, assumimg they do change to digital, what's likely to happen? Blow the meter?

 

I've seen people put magnets on them to slow them down, after a while its hard to prise the magnets apart.

[KhaoYai]

1 minute ago, Crossy said:

At present it's just a thought experiment, our daytime loading is pretty constant so I could reasonably easily set up a system that won't export.

 

If net metering is really a non-starter and the deal on My Solar Roof really is as bad as is being cited (which would explain the poor take up) I'm more likely to go with an off-grid system with grid backup for dull days / higher loads. OK it will need batteries which wear out but I can use cheaper inverters needing no approval from anyone.

Hmmmmm.....food for thought.

 

The house I'm building will be close to Korat city and its likely I'll spend 2/3 of my time there. From what I've read so far, I think an on grid system would be best for the new house but, I'm not selling my Khao Yai house.  I've made a lot of improvements there in the past 2 years and one of the next things I plan to do is replace the <deleted> tin roof. At that point I may also install solar there and an off grid system sounds attractive. Of course, only living there 1/3 of the time will make payback out of the question but for me, payback is just a bonus, not the reason I'm doing it.

[ArranP]

15 minutes ago, Crossy said:

At present it's just a thought experiment, our daytime loading is pretty constant so I could reasonably easily set up a system that won't export.

 

If net metering is really a non-starter and the deal on My Solar Roof really is as bad as is being cited (which would explain the poor take up) I'm more likely to go with an off-grid system with grid backup for dull days / higher loads (water heaters would use grid power exclusively). OK it will need batteries which wear out, but I can use cheaper inverters needing no approval from anyone.

 

Of course with batteries we also get the UPS functionality meaning we are totally grid independant, even here (only 50km outside BKK) power failures are common enough that our genset gets regular exercise.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Can take showers out the equation by fitting thermosiphon water heaters. It uses the principle of heat rises, no circulatory pump needed. I think they are about 100 USD for 100 Litre collector and tank, sits on the roof, buy 2 or 3 at a time to save on the 200 USD shipping fee ( from Hong Kong ).

 

 

 

[sometimewoodworker]

49 minutes ago, ArranP said:

thermosiphon water heater

 

51 minutes ago, ArranP said:

 

 

Can take showers out the equation by fitting thermosiphon water heaters. It uses the principle of heat rises, no circulatory pump needed. I think they are about 100 USD for 100 Litre collector and tank, sits on the roof, buy 2 or 3 at a time to save on the 200 USD shipping fee ( from Hong Kong ).

 

 

 

There seems to be something strange in your numbers. Any commercial solar water heater costing around 3,000 Baht is a stretch and the shipping of 6,000 Baht sounds even more dubious.

 

if its using evacuated tubes it's going to be at least 10 times the price and they are available in Thailand.

[CGW]

1 hour ago, KhaoYai said:

If a full solar energy package can be installed for 100,000 or even 200,000 then I'd say its about time Thailand made it compulsory for all new builds. I would also guess the cost would probably be much lower when applied commercially.

Your dreaming, what do you think the average Thai pays for a house? if they can afford one million they will be very lucky and you want them to pay 20% of the cost for solar power which WILL not even give them power 24/7 & will take many years to pay for itself - if ever - have you ever heard of reality?

[Fruit Trader]

1 hour ago, Crossy said:

At present it's just a thought experiment, our daytime loading is pretty constant so I could reasonably easily set up a system that won't export.

 

If net metering is really a non-starter and the deal on My Solar Roof really is as bad as is being cited (which would explain the poor take up) I'm more likely to go with an off-grid system with grid backup for dull days / higher loads (water heaters would use grid power exclusively). OK it will need batteries which wear out, but I can use cheaper inverters needing no approval from anyone.

 

Of course with batteries we also get the UPS functionality meaning we are totally grid independant, even here (only 50km outside BKK) power failures are common enough that our genset gets regular exercise.

 

 

 

 

Consider low cost modbus metering to gather bidirectional power data.

 

I use inexpensive modbus metering to remotely log and view our work shed power consumption and supply parameters. The single phase modbus meter sits inline between distribution board and PEA meter.

 

If I were to add unapproved solar grid tie to the system and wanted to avoid negative readings at the street I would most likely use meter data to either rough compare against initial PEA stored reading or avoid export completely. This could be achieved via separate single board interface that switches out or diverts the grid tie.

100A single phase mobus power meter

 

 

 

[BritManToo]

2 hours ago, KhaoYai said:

If a full solar energy package can be installed for 100,000 or even 200,000 then I'd say its about time Thailand made it compulsory for all new builds. I would also guess the cost would probably be much lower when applied commercially.

 

Finding the money to retro fit a system would be difficult for a lot of Thai people - given the average salary but if its included in the price of a house, I doubt the mortgage payments would be drastically higher.

1 330w panel (3,700) + 1 600w GTI (2,700) =6,400bht ..... plus 25 x 50 x 6000 box steel for the frame 350bht and a few bolts and screws, total 7,000bht. (a second panel would add another 4,000bht)

 

As Crossy said earlier, a number of micro inverters distributed around might be a better idea.

You can add as you want, and failure of the GTI isn't going to be such an expense.

 

My little experiment with solar here.

 

[ArranP]

1 hour ago, sometimewoodworker said:

 

There seems to be something strange in your numbers. Any commercial solar water heater costing around 3,000 Baht is a stretch and the shipping of 6,000 Baht sounds even more dubious.

 

if its using evacuated tubes it's going to be at least 10 times the price and they are available in Thailand.

 

Use the Request For Quote ( RFQ ) on Alibaba, I did the research about 1 month ago.  There will be import tax to pay, approx 60% including delivery and agent fees.

 

 

 

[beddhist]

On 8/18/2019 at 4:48 AM, Crossy said:

 

Yeah, I'm sorely tempted to just install a small system and hope the meter reader doesn't notice the disc going backwards.

I did just that. When reading day approaches I make sure the meter reading is not lower than the last reading and I turn the back feed off. Can make for exciting times!

[beddhist]

3 hours ago, KhaoYai said:

Finding the money to retro fit a system would be difficult for a lot of Thai people - given the average salary but if its included in the price of a house, I doubt the mortgage payments would be drastically higher.

In the villages around here houses cost less than 100k to build, so you would be at least doubling the cost.

[Hummin]

12 minutes ago, beddhist said:

In the villages around here houses cost less than 100k to build, so you would be at least doubling the cost.

Normal Thai village houses these days at 100K? 

 

The houses I have seen lately being built, is around 500K and up to 800K

[sometimewoodworker]

29 minutes ago, ArranP said:

 

Use the Request For Quote ( RFQ ) on Alibaba, I did the research about 1 month ago.  There will be import tax to pay, approx 60% including delivery and agent fees.

 

 

 

So as I said the price of ฿3,000 is way under any reasonable vacuum tube unit, the ones you have an example of have only 3 tubes with a single extra. All examples you can find have 10 or more tubes per collector, also they are only listing a 5 unit quantity not individual units. 

 

So unless you can find 4 other people to join in you purchase your not going to get a base price remotely under ฿20,000.

You cant extrapolate the cost for shipping 5 units as the same as 1 nor can you just divide the cost of 5 units (that need another 6 tubes each) by 5 and expect it to be remotely close to that of a single unit.

[ArranP]

1 minute ago, sometimewoodworker said:

So as I said the price of ฿3,000 is way under any reasonable vacuum tube unit, the ones you have an example of have only 3 tubes with a single extra. All examples you can find have 10 or more tubes per collector, also they are only listing a 5 unit quantity not individual units. 

 

So unless you can find 4 other people to join in you purchase your not going to get a base price remotely under ฿20,000.

You cant extrapolate the cost for shipping 5 units as the same as 1 nor can you just divide the cost of 5 units (that need another 6 tubes each) by 5 and expect it to be remotely close to that of a single unit.

 

One per shower room.

[beddhist]

For what it's worth, this is our system, built by myself from components:

 

14 x 325W panels, connected as two strings to a pair of 3kW hybrid inverters with 48V 45Ah batteries.

The panels have a rated peak capacity of 4.55kW. The highest production rate indicated by the inverters at noon on a sunny June day was about 4kW.

 

Our house is currently being built and we live in a small room on site. We have fridge, internet and security cam on all the time, plus fans and lights and 2 laptops. During the day the construction crew use assorted tools, including a mortar mixer and a big arc welder. I have monitored power use over a few days:

 

Power produced: 25 kWh/day

Power fed back:  14 kWh/day

[sometimewoodworker]

6 minutes ago, ArranP said:

 

One per shower room.

I look forward to the attempt 

[KhaoYai]

2 hours ago, CGW said:

Your dreaming, what do you think the average Thai pays for a house? if they can afford one million they will be very lucky and you want them to pay 20% of the cost for solar power which WILL not even give them power 24/7 & will take many years to pay for itself - if ever - have you ever heard of reality?

Dreaming? Until people like you stop counting only the financial costs, we are unlikely to tackle climate change.  How about the cost of your grandchildren's lives? How much are they worth?

 

The world's sea levels are rising at a rate of 30cm per century and that is currently under review with a suspected huge acceleration suspected due to faster than expected glacial melting. Many countries have land that is close to sea level near their coasts - Bangkok being one of those areas. Some island nations are facing being lost completely in the next few years.

 

Yet people, and from your tone, I'd guess you are one of them, still do nothing, on the whole. Governments talk about climate change and make plans but ultimately do little of any consequence.  What does it take before people realise that this is serious?  Its the most serious theat that this planet has ever faced since human inhabitation.

 

Governments do little because the economic aspects are more important to them. They know that if they are the 'first to jump' and take serious measures, their country may face major economic disadvantage.  As a race, humans are facing a decision, if only they knew it - they either continue the damaging activity they've been engaged in for the last few centuries or they face not having anywhere left for that activity to take place in. I believe that the choice is life and death - not for us, for future generations and maybe sooner than is thought.

 

I think I said earlier that I don't think it will cost that much to install solar power systems if its done commercially.  If solar becomes more popular, the economies of scale will force the price down as they have with almost everything else.  It has been illustrated on this thread that a reasonable system should be possible at a cost of 100,000 baht - that's a 10% increase on your figures not 20%.  Large scale installations and the ecomomies of scale could possibly half that to 5%.

 

A number of years ago the UK introduced a series of measures that increased the thermal efficiency of new build houses (and such measures continue) which increased the build costs by around 7.5%. People like you were saying then, that it would cause a collapse in the UK's housing market. It didn't and demand for new housing in the UK continues to outstrip supply.

 

The Thai government could make it mandatory for all new houses to have solar power quite easily. 5% on your figures is 50,000 baht. Further, the government could subsidise those installations - as they did with diesel previously.  The net effect on house buyers is not likely to get anywhere near the 20% you suggest and may actually, become nothing eventually. If, and I doubt it, there was an effect on house sales then the price of land would fall to accomodate that. But really - 50,000 baht over a 20 year motgage term? 2500 baht per year + interest. Taking into account the savings on electricity bills, are you seriously trying to tell me that Thai people can't afford that? The likelihood is that over that 20 year term, house buyers will actually be better off.

 

You can deny climate change all you want, at some point, if its not passed already, it will be too late. What will your excuse to your grandchildren be then? Sorry?

 

Dreaming? Yes I'm dreaming - I'm dreamimg about leaving a world behind where my offspring and theirs can live without threat.  Sadly, I think that your type are in the majority - most people really don't care.

[KhaoYai]

29 minutes ago, beddhist said:

14 x 325W panels, connected as two strings to a pair of 3kW hybrid inverters with 48V 45Ah batteries.

Do you have any costs?

[beddhist]

On 8/16/2019 at 7:57 PM, KhaoYai said:

I'm not convinced for example, that electric cars that use batteries are quite the environmental saviour we are led to believe.  Its just possible that in reducing emmisons from cars, we may be solving one environmental problem but creating another - namely the replacement and disposal of batteries. Not forgetting of course, that the electricty used to charge the car's batteries is very liklely to be produced at a power station that emits gases that contribute to climate change. I have no idea of the figures but I wonder how much we save (total environmental cost) by using electric cars? - taking into account the environmental cost of producing, replacing and disposing of batteries + the environmental cost of generating the electricty needed to charge those cars. They may well still be a better alternative but electric cars are not without environmental costs.

That is all true, but to keep things in perspective think about how the fuel in your car gets there and how each step damages the environment. Most EV manufacturers offer battery warranties around 8 years now and Nissan recently stated that they expect the battery to outlast the car in the new Leaf. After that the batteries have a second life for energy storage (another 10 years), after which they can be recycled. I find this Youtube channel an entertaining source of information.

 

I really tried hard to replace the family's old car with an EV, but in Thailand, outside of big cities we will have to wait a little while longer.

[BritManToo]

11 hours ago, KhaoYai said:

The world's sea levels are rising at a rate of 30cm per century and that is currently under review with a suspected huge acceleration suspected due to faster than expected glacial melting.

I lived in a house on Brighton beach, in 1956.

The house is still there and the waterline is still in the same place 64 years later.

Same for my pal's house on Shoreham beach, zero detectable change in sea level.

You might be able to push an argument for 1-2cm sea level change in 100 years, but 30cm is just BS.

 

Anyway if you really cared about the environment you wouldn't be building houses, or flying back and forth to Thailand. If climate change was real, the first preventative step should be to ban all recreational flights.

[beddhist]

11 hours ago, KhaoYai said:

Do you have any costs?

Yep:

14 x Panels 5000B each

Probably around 10 - 15 kB for steel, fasteners, cable, breakers, automatic transfer switch, etc.

2 x Inverter Easun iGrid SV II US$ 1256 + Duty & Tax & EMS 7,530 B

4 x Battery LiFePO4, 12V, 45Ah 20kB (probably incompatible, may have to replace)

 

(What Easun and the manual don't tell you: if you use the inverters in parallel you must have battery connected!)

 

Here is a pic of the installed panels.

[beddhist]

12 hours ago, beddhist said:

Power produced: 25 kWh/dayPower fed back:  14 kWh/day

Sorry, I should have qualified this: this was in May/June when the sun was shining. Now that it's cloudy it is significantly less.

[Hummin]

3 hours ago, BritManToo said:

I lived in a house on Brighton beach, in 1956.

The house is still there and the waterline is still in the same place 64 years later.

Same for my pal's house on Shoreham beach, zero detectable change in sea level.

You might be able to push an argument for 1-2cm sea level change in 100 years, but 30cm is just BS.

 

Anyway if you really cared about the environment you wouldn't be building houses, or flying back and forth to Thailand. If climate change was real, the first preventative step should be to ban all recreational flights.

no more flights, less clothes, less beef, and less <deleted>ty plastic products. Cruise holidays banned, and deforesting the planet would also be banned. agriculture in high rise buildings recycling the water used, and much more. 

[Crossy]

OK, time for action on my part.

 

I'm going to bung a couple of 600W micro-inverters (two panels each) on the car port and see where we go from there.

 

They should cover our standing load from the pool and koi pond without actually exporting.