UK plans to end EU freedom of movement immediately in no-deal Brexit

[sandyf]

12 hours ago, aright said:

Within the UK, free NHS treatment is provided on the basis of someone being ‘ordinarily resident’. It is not dependent upon nationality, payment of UK taxes, national insurance contributions, being registered with a GP, having an NHS number or owning property in the UK.

https://www.expatnetwork.com/expats-have-to-pay-for-nhs-care/

I am not saying this is just...……….but it is the law which, if you live outside the UK, you appear to be in violation of. 

"you appear to be in violation of. "

 

Jumping to conclusions -  you may think it is straightforward, the government thinks otherwise.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/655489/Nationality-policy-assessing-ordinary-residence-v2.0EXT.pdf

[aright]

2 hours ago, sandyf said:

"you appear to be in violation of. "

 

Jumping to conclusions -  you may think it is straightforward, the government thinks otherwise.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/655489/Nationality-policy-assessing-ordinary-residence-v2.0EXT.pdf

It's clear to me, the expat link I have already given and this Yougov link …….

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/new-rules-to-improve-overseas-visitors-contributions-to-nhs-care 

 

Also...…….

If you're visiting England from a non-EEA country, even if you're a former UK resident, you'll be charged for NHS secondary care at 150% of the standard NHS rate, unless an exemption from the charge category applies to either you or the treatment.

You should make sure you're covered for healthcare through personal medical or travel insurance for the duration of your visit.

 

https://www.nhs.uk/using-the-nhs/nhs-services/visiting-or-moving-to-england/visitors-from-outside-the-european-economic-area-eea/

Can you give me a link which says, in this case, a resident of Thailand?? or any other country outside the EEA, beyond the stipulated exemptions, can visit the UK for an annual check up and have his required medication mailed to him?

 

 

 

[CharlieH]

Reported troll comment removed.

[yogi100]

On 8/27/2019 at 3:29 PM, 7by7 said:

I see, so you are happy for EU migrants to come and do the jobs British workers don't want. Pretty much the current situation in many sectors!

 

Is your knowledge of the UK really that lamentable?

 

For a start, the sun rises considerably early in the summer when many crops are being harvested than it does in the winter. 

 

Secondly, next time you come to the UK, drive around any agricultural area at night in the harvesting season. You will see many people working; either outside under temporary lights or in massive green houses which are well lit.Farming as a 24/7 occupation these days. Many farmers would say it always has been!

 

Much agricultural work is seasonal and undertaken by migrant workers; which is one reason why many Brits don't want it!

 

Google "Agricultural workers wanted." You will find page after page of results like this:this one. If your claim that EU migrant workers are taking jobs away from British people, how come there are so many vacancies?

 

As already shown to you, most of the 8.6 million are in full time education!

 

You may know people who have conned the government into believing they cannot work, I know people who genuinely cannot; my brother before he died being one.

 

But it seems you have not heard of the Work Capability Assessment all disabled people have to undergo to receive disability benefits. Which is odd, considering how controversial it was when first introduced: Work Capability Test Not Fit for Purpose, and still is in certain quarters.

 

But I suppose that news has yet to reach whichever corner of Thailand you live in.

 

The same can be said of the rest of your nonsense, so I'm not going to bother top quote it or respond as I'd only be repeating myself.

 

I'll leave that to you as you obviously subscribe to the Brexiteer belief that if you repeat the same old pony time and time again, even after being proven wrong every time, it will somehow magically become true.

Before we were in the EU the fruit and vegetables got picked. We picked our own fruit and veg. I picked fruit as a boy in Kent during the school holidays as did thousands of other city dwelling youngsters from other British cities all over the country.

 

The long school summer holidays coincided with the harvesting season, probably intentionally. We spent the whole holidays working in the orchards and fields. We stayed on the farms in caravans, huts and tents. Sometimes whole families worked on the same farm each year. We had camp fires in which cooked the potatoes that we'd picked along with sausages in the evenings. It was a great life and we got paid for it with money that we would later be denied.  Londoners also traditionally worked the hop fields of Kent.

 

But mechanisation, technology and the do gooders and jobsworths with their interfering child exploitation laws eventually helped to put paid to that. Now they sit in front of TVs or play computer games or smoke dope and get into trouble. Nowadays a kid has to be 14 and maybe even get a work permit if he wants to just do paper round. But that's what 'progress' is all about.

 

Years later I worked in Jersey in the Channel Islands on building sites. This was in the 1970s. It was seasonal British workers who came over and worked on the sites. And with a few locals and Portuguese it was English, Scottish and Irish who mainly picked the Jersey potatoes and tomatoes. I remember them having tomato fights in the pubs when the tomatoes were picked.

 

I may not be as familiar with agricultural life as you seem to be but I have a little experience of it. Perhaps you yourself with your greater knowledge could tell us how we coped before the EU and mass immigration but try not to be so rude about it.

 

Then tell us how we managed the largest empire the world has ever seen and how at one time the words 'Made in Britain' was regarded as a hallmark of quality. And while you're at it tell us how we did this with or without the help and guidance of European and other immigrants.

[yogi100]

17 hours ago, sandyf said:

Absolute garbage.

The European Convention on Human Rights has nothing to do with the EU.

ECHR Protocol 4 Article 2 is Titled Freedom of Movement but it is referring to movement within any global state, not the EU. The Protocol was signed off on 16th Sept 1963, well before the EU freedom of movement came into being.

Fair enough I may be mistaken about it being a ECHR ruling but an EU passport holder cannot be denied the right to reside in the UK possibly unless criminality is involved. Even then they are still free to go where they like after a trial has taken place unless they are imprisoned.

 

Foreign criminals including rapists have been reported to have returned to the UK within days of having been deported. You might welcome them but I certainly don't want them in my country.

[sandyf]

15 hours ago, aright said:

It's clear to me, the expat link I have already given and this Yougov link …….

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/new-rules-to-improve-overseas-visitors-contributions-to-nhs-care 

 

Also...…….

If you're visiting England from a non-EEA country, even if you're a former UK resident, you'll be charged for NHS secondary care at 150% of the standard NHS rate, unless an exemption from the charge category applies to either you or the treatment.

You should make sure you're covered for healthcare through personal medical or travel insurance for the duration of your visit.

 

https://www.nhs.uk/using-the-nhs/nhs-services/visiting-or-moving-to-england/visitors-from-outside-the-european-economic-area-eea/

Can you give me a link which says, in this case, a resident of Thailand?? or any other country outside the EEA, beyond the stipulated exemptions, can visit the UK for an annual check up and have his required medication mailed to him?

 

 

 

You are just trying to avoid the complexity of being ordinary resident.

Only the arrogant would say it is clear to them when the government class it as an assessment.

[DannyCarlton]

15 hours ago, aright said:

Can you give me a link which says, in this case, a resident of Thailand?? or any other country outside the EEA, beyond the stipulated exemptions, can visit the UK for an annual check up and have his required medication mailed to him?

Me. Visit the UK and have an annual check up, including full range of blood tests. My prescription medication is mailed to me 12 weekly. I've lived permanently in Thailand for several years.

[stevenl]

7 minutes ago, DannyCarlton said:

Me. Visit the UK and have an annual check up, including full range of blood tests. My prescription medication is mailed to me 12 weekly. I've lived permanently in Thailand for several years.

You're again omitting information, in this case that you tell them you're planning to relocate to the UK, and already have a GP there.

[DannyCarlton]

1 minute ago, stevenl said:

You're again omitting information, in this case that you tell them you're planning to relocate to the UK, and already have a GP there.

All Uk passport holders are free to do the same.

[friend of siam]

On 8/26/2019 at 8:47 PM, 7by7 said:

 So here we are, going round in circles and back at your claim that mass immigration has taken the jobs of British workers.

 

A claim which has been proven to be false.

 

Mass immigration has not led to mass unemployment; a fact which is proven by the falling unemployment rate since the early 1990s.

 

I know you can't accept that fact, but that is your problem; one shared by many Brexiteers who simply cannot accept the truth because it shatters their prejudices. 

 

The ignorant rant which makes up the rest of your post is confirmation of that prejudice.

 

A rant in which you have failed to answer the important question: do you honestly believe that after Brexit unemployment in the UK will fall even further whilst at the same time wages will increase? 

 

The reason for your failure to answer is obvious; even you know that Brexit will not remove unemployment from the UK, will not see an increase in UK wages.

 

Employers who pay minimum wage will continue to do so after Brexit. And it is the UK government who sets the minimum wage in the UK, not the EU.

any commodoty that is in demand ( like if there are not enough workers but many jobs to be done ) will raise in price ( wages )...

now if that commodity is onnl one side very easy and in extreme surplus available ( unregulated mass immigration ) and the demand ( ,jobs ) was shiftet elswhere ( the big chinese working camp nazi style  where slaves are forced iphone ) than the price will drop ( wages will slump and freeze near to nothing ) big coorp wet dream reality today...boris doing fine I hope same like usa he increase chinese import tax and gets the crime gangs out plus the millions of cheapest labourers from east europe...the final must be british jobs back to britain done by british people and not by some arab bangla or polish worker...

so also a minimum wage needs to be defined ( based on rental prices in londons inner city ) and this wage must be heavily impossed and checked ..if somebody fails nationalise his business and money..

[aright]

3 hours ago, sandyf said:

You are just trying to avoid the complexity of being ordinary resident.

Only the arrogant would say it is clear to them when the government class it as an assessment.

As usual no answer to questions asked...……..

Can you give me a link which says, in this case, a resident of Thailand?? or any other country outside the EEA, beyond the stipulated exemptions, can visit the UK for an annual check up and have his required medication mailed to him?

Evidence of that or similar situations by qualified link would make  it much clearer. I have given you three links expat, gov.uk,and nhs services asserting the position, nothing to do with arrogance,  all you have given me is spout.

 

[dick dasterdly]

5 hours ago, yogi100 said:

Before we were in the EU the fruit and vegetables got picked. We picked our own fruit and veg. I picked fruit as a boy in Kent during the school holidays as did thousands of other city dwelling youngsters from other British cities all over the country.

 

The long school summer holidays coincided with the harvesting season, probably intentionally. We spent the whole holidays working in the orchards and fields. We stayed on the farms in caravans, huts and tents. Sometimes whole families worked on the same farm each year. We had camp fires in which cooked the potatoes that we'd picked along with sausages in the evenings. It was a great life and we got paid for it with money that we would later be denied.  Londoners also traditionally worked the hop fields of Kent.

 

But mechanisation, technology and the do gooders and jobsworths with their interfering child exploitation laws eventually helped to put paid to that. Now they sit in front of TVs or play computer games or smoke dope and get into trouble. Nowadays a kid has to be 14 and maybe even get a work permit if he wants to just do paper round. But that's what 'progress' is all about.

 

Years later I worked in Jersey in the Channel Islands on building sites. This was in the 1970s. It was seasonal British workers who came over and worked on the sites. And with a few locals and Portuguese it was English, Scottish and Irish who mainly picked the Jersey potatoes and tomatoes. I remember them having tomato fights in the pubs when the tomatoes were picked.

 

I may not be as familiar with agricultural life as you seem to be but I have a little experience of it. Perhaps you yourself with your greater knowledge could tell us how we coped before the EU and mass immigration but try not to be so rude about it.

 

Then tell us how we managed the largest empire the world has ever seen and how at one time the words 'Made in Britain' was regarded as a hallmark of quality. And while you're at it tell us how we did this with or without the help and guidance of European and other immigrants.

"Before we were in the EU the fruit and vegetables got picked."

 

I know nothing about building sites, but this part is undeniably true.

 

The annoying part is that we've argued this previously - and it's being resurrected yet again as an 'argument' that the Brits. are too lazy ☹️.

 

If only remainers could 'get their heads around the idea' that Brits. aren't too lazy - they are just unable to survive on the ever decreasing 'real' wages/salaries (hence the necessary govt. top ups)!

 

Edit - And FOM from FAR poorer EU countries isn't helping!

Edited August 29, 2019 by dick dasterdly

[aright]

3 hours ago, DannyCarlton said:

Me. Visit the UK and have an annual check up, including full range of blood tests. My prescription medication is mailed to me 12 weekly. I've lived permanently in Thailand for several years.

Sounds like you have found your way around the established system. None of my friends in Thailand know about this. Perhaps you could explain the secret in more detail that leads to your qualification when all my links say you are not eligible. 

[Chelseafan]

On 8/20/2019 at 1:15 PM, TopDeadSenter said:

Finally!! Time for merit based immigration. 

Which we already have.

 

https://workpermit.com/immigration/united-kingdom/uk-visa-tier-points-based-immigration-system

 

 

[DannyCarlton]

3 minutes ago, aright said:

Sounds like you have found your way around the established system. None of my friends in Thailand know about this. Perhaps you could explain the secret in more detail that leads to your qualification when all my links say you are not eligible. 

Basically you need an address in the UK. I use a friend's address where I stay when visiting the UK. Many people use a relative's address. Register with a GP when you return. If asked, state that you are returning to the UK to live and are living temporarly at the address you have given until you find permanent accommodation. This process usually takes less than 24 hours. Make an appointment with a GP. If it's urgent, you will normally be seen the same day. Now, you're in the system.

[stevenl]

23 minutes ago, DannyCarlton said:

Basically you need an address in the UK. I use a friend's address where I stay when visiting the UK. Many people use a relative's address. Register with a GP when you return. If asked, state that you are returning to the UK to live and are living temporarly at the address you have given until you find permanent accommodation. This process usually takes less than 24 hours. Make an appointment with a GP. If it's urgent, you will normally be seen the same day. Now, you're in the system.

aright links are correct, what you're doing is called cheating the system.

[yogi100]

37 minutes ago, aright said:

As usual no answer to questions asked...……..

Can you give me a link which says, in this case, a resident of Thailand?? or any other country outside the EEA, beyond the stipulated exemptions, can visit the UK for an annual check up and have his required medication mailed to him?

Evidence of that or similar situations by qualified link would make  it much clearer. I have given you three links expat, gov.uk,and nhs services asserting the position, nothing to do with arrogance,  all you have given me is spout.

 

Can you give a 'link' to a case in which a Briton who has been living in Thailand has refused medical treatment if and when he sought it in the UK. 

 

Such an incident would raise Cain if ever it hit the national press especially when the NHS provides what has been referred to as the International Health Service.

[DannyCarlton]

1 minute ago, stevenl said:

aright links are correct, what you're doing is called cheating the system.

How so?

[yogi100]

37 minutes ago, aright said:

Sounds like you have found your way around the established system. None of my friends in Thailand know about this. Perhaps you could explain the secret in more detail that leads to your qualification when all my links say you are not eligible. 

You know the procedure well enough to work it out yourself as do your friends in Thailand.

 

 

[aright]

31 minutes ago, DannyCarlton said:

Basically you need an address in the UK. I use a friend's address where I stay when visiting the UK. Many people use a relative's address. Register with a GP when you return. If asked, state that you are returning to the UK to live and are living temporarly at the address you have given until you find permanent accommodation. This process usually takes less than 24 hours. Make an appointment with a GP. If it's urgent, you will normally be seen the same day. Now, you're in the system.

So you are abusing the system then. 

[yogi100]

10 minutes ago, stevenl said:

aright links are correct, what you're doing is called cheating the system.

If a Briton has paid his national insurance premiums into the system all his working life how is he cheating it if he needs and receives health treatment.

 

It's cheating the system to deny it to him while allowing foreigners who've never contributed a penny to get it. Those who permit such a disgraceful state of affairs are the real culprits when it cones to 'cheating any system'!

 

 

[candide]

2 hours ago, friend of siam said:

any commodoty that is in demand ( like if there are not enough workers but many jobs to be done ) will raise in price ( wages )...

now if that commodity is onnl one side very easy and in extreme surplus available ( unregulated mass immigration ) and the demand ( ,jobs ) was shiftet elswhere ( the big chinese working camp nazi style  where slaves are forced iphone ) than the price will drop ( wages will slump and freeze near to nothing ) big coorp wet dream reality today...boris doing fine I hope same like usa he increase chinese import tax and gets the crime gangs out plus the millions of cheapest labourers from east europe...the final must be british jobs back to britain done by british people and not by some arab bangla or polish worker...

so also a minimum wage needs to be defined ( based on rental prices in londons inner city ) and this wage must be heavily impossed and checked ..if somebody fails nationalise his business and money..

I agree with you about the law of offer and demand, however:

- minimal wage and work contract regulations are national regulations and have little to do with the EU. Other EU countries have different regulations.

- the strong immigration from Eastern countries has been caused by an active UK policy. It is UK which pushed for freedom of movement for workers, and opened its border in advance of other countries. For example, Germany did it only in 2011. As a result, these Eastern European workers all went to UK because it was the only country that allowed it.

- there has always been a strong immigration from the former colonies. Immigration did not start in 2004.

- about the other part of your offer and demand argumentation (production in low-cost countries), it also has little to do with the EU. The same occurs in all developed countries. Moreover, a UK as a hub of free trade agreement is unlikely to improve it. On the contrary, the insufficient negotiation power of a single country is likely to result in a worth situation.

[candide]

1 hour ago, <deleted> dasterdly said:

The annoying part is that we've argued this previously - and it's being resurrected yet again as an 'argument' that the Brits. are too lazy ☹️

It's not particularly the British, it's the same in any developped country. People are not attracted by hard physical work and it's not only a question of wages. 

Same for summer jobs: they prefer to work in a shop or hotel rather than in a farm.

[DannyCarlton]

29 minutes ago, aright said:

So you are abusing the system then. 

How?

 

32 minutes ago, yogi100 said:

You know the procedure well enough to work it out yourself as do your friends in Thailand.

 

 

Yes I know the system. What I'm doing isn't illegal and availiable to anyone with a British passport.

[aright]

8 minutes ago, yogi100 said:

If a Briton has paid his national insurance premiums into the system all his working life how is he cheating it if he needs and receives health treatment.

 

It's cheating the system to deny it to him while allowing foreigners who've never contributed a penny to get it. Those who permit such a disgraceful state of affairs are the real culprits when it cones to 'cheating any system'!

 

 

The treatment of foreigners is a separate issue.

When a person resident in a foreign country gets free annual check ups and medication it defies the rules which state, with certain exemptions free treatment is provided on the basis of someone being "ordinarily resident" in the UK. To lie to get that status is in imo abusing the system.

I am not claiming the system is just but that's the way it is.

[DannyCarlton]

 

3 minutes ago, aright said:

The treatment of foreigners is a separate issue.

When a person resident in a foreign country gets free annual check ups and medication it defies the rules which state, with certain exemptions free treatment is provided on the basis of someone being "ordinarily resident" in the UK. To lie to get that status is in imo abusing the system.

I am not claiming the system is just but that's the way it is.

Ordinarrily resident includes those who have returned to the UK to take up residence. I'm not lying when I tell them that. When I land in England, who knows whether I will ever return to Thailand or not? I might become too unwell to ever travel back. I might die suddenly. I might do something naughty and get sent to prison. Who knows? Not me.

[aright]

2 minutes ago, DannyCarlton said:

So you are abusing the system then. 

 

How?

By lying about your personal circumstances which I agree is not illegal, more a life style choice. Do you do the same with your taxes?

[stevenl]

31 minutes ago, yogi100 said:

If a Briton has paid his national insurance premiums into the system all his working life how is he cheating it if he needs and receives health treatment.

 

It's cheating the system to deny it to him while allowing foreigners who've never contributed a penny to get it. Those who permit such a disgraceful state of affairs are the real culprits when it cones to 'cheating any system'!

 

 

Previous payments in have no bearing at all on entitlements. Don't like it, change the system.

[sandyf]

1 hour ago, aright said:

As usual no answer to questions asked...……..

Can you give me a link which says, in this case, a resident of Thailand?? or any other country outside the EEA, beyond the stipulated exemptions, can visit the UK for an annual check up and have his required medication mailed to him?

Evidence of that or similar situations by qualified link would make  it much clearer. I have given you three links expat, gov.uk,and nhs services asserting the position, nothing to do with arrogance,  all you have given me is spout.

 

I am not going to answer hypothetical questions that you put forward to try and distort the context. There is only one basis - ordinary residence, and the criteria for that is based on an assessment of intent, you would know that if you followed government guidelines.

It would be the height of arrogance for anyone on this forum to claim they are fully aware of the intentions of others.

 

Anyone who has spent their whole working life in the UK has a moral right to a benefit from the contributions and tax that has been paid.

Objections to that principle stem from selfishness by those trying to maximise the contributions and tax paid for their own benefit rather than see any benefit go to those that have made the payments, with the same unsavoury trait arising in the frozen pensions saga.

In fact we see a similar scenario in the brexit fiasco, take what you can from the immigrant workforce and give nothing back. If the government had used the income from EU citizens to provide more doctors, teachers and housing, we wouldn't be in this mess.

[aright]

16 minutes ago, sandyf said:

I am not going to answer hypothetical questions that you put forward to try and distort the context. There is only one basis - ordinary residence, and the criteria for that is based on an assessment of intent, you would know that if you followed government guidelines.

It would be the height of arrogance for anyone on this forum to claim they are fully aware of the intentions of others.

 

Anyone who has spent their whole working life in the UK has a moral right to a benefit from the contributions and tax that has been paid.

Objections to that principle stem from selfishness by those trying to maximise the contributions and tax paid for their own benefit rather than see any benefit go to those that have made the payments, with the same unsavoury trait arising in the frozen pensions saga.

In fact we see a similar scenario in the brexit fiasco, take what you can from the immigrant workforce and give nothing back. If the government had used the income from EU citizens to provide more doctors, teachers and housing, we wouldn't be in this mess.

Your get out of jail card is always " context distortion" and what is hypothetical about asking for a link to support your argument?  With your regard to moral rights In case you missed it on 2 occasions I have said " I am not saying the ruling is "Just" but that doesn't make lying moral or justifiable to access the benefit.