O/A visa and insurance experience today

[Martyp]

3 minutes ago, LivinLOS said:

However it isnt clear if using any policy other than the approved ones (even with a signed certificate) is acceptable after the first year. 

It is possible that the wording means you can get a non Thai policy when you obtain your visa, and then once you have come here they expect you to buy one of the ones which links to the database. This would also time with your first extension as it would have the 'admitted to the end date of' etc.. 

Pacific Cross is a Thai company and is one of the companies on the website. My policy is approved to meet the regulations and my agent told me yesterday that it had been uploaded on the TGIA database. They will also sync my next policy (January 2020) to whatever my 1-year extension date is (November) and prorate the yearly fee accordingly. It's a 10,000,000 baht policy.

 

The point is that there other options if you look around.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

5 minutes ago, Exploring Thailand said:

Yeah, I think you could well be right, but I don't see what is the legal basis for excluding foreign companies. It would be very interesting to know the process and criteria for being listed on the TGIA site. Who decides which companies appear on it, and how do they decide?

 

As usual here, the utmost in government transparency... NOT!!!

 

But seriously, I believe, the TGIA is basically the trade association for the Thai insurance industry, and has a roster of participating member insurance companies.

 

I would imagine, once this mess got rolling, they all had an opportunity to decide if they wanted to get involved in marketing insurance policies to the O-A and O-X visa recipient community, which of course, is going to require some level of multi-lingual capability among the insurance staff....  Some may have decided they didn't want to bother with it.  Also, some may be focused on lines of insurance other than health.

 

https://www.tgia.org/member-EN

Objectives of Thai General Insurance Association
 

Quote

 

1. Promote and support the operation of enterprises related to insurance.
2. Solve the obstacles and problems including negotiating with third parties when requested by members for mutual benefits in the undertaking of enterprises that are in the objective scope.
3. Conduct researches on the type of enterprises that are in the objective scope.
4. Promote cooperation, unity and exchange of ideas among members, government agencies, or other institutes.
5. Compromise disputes among members or between members and the outsiders.
6. Collaborate with the government to promote the activities of members of the Association.
7. Establish regulations for members to practice or refrain from practices to ensure the integrity of the enterprise regarding insurance.

 

 

etc etc etc...

Edited November 9, 2019 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[Thaidream]

2 minutes ago, LivinLOS said:

However it isnt clear if using any policy other than the approved ones (even with a signed certificate) is acceptable after the first year. 

It is possible that the wording means you can get a non Thai policy when you obtain your visa, and then once you have come here they expect you to buy one of the ones which links to the database. This would also time with your first extension as it would have the 'admitted to the end date of' etc.. 

The way the program is set up is a complete farce and smacks of absolute cronyism.

 

If they want a database- that is fine but a person should be free to use any insurance company Worldwide.  The current  website gives little real choice- there is no provision for people over the age of 75.   There is no real competition to force insurance companies to lower prices and provide better coverage.

 

This system will not fly- the O-A Visa will no longer be viable for many and thus the numbers  of people who even get it will decline.  

 

If they don't stop this nonsense and either suspend the program or at the least grandfather every person on an O-A prior to 31 October 2019 there will be ongoing chaos; lots of people switching to Non O; others going the marriage route and even more going the agent route.  

 

None of this helps people get real insurance coverage or even remotely provides relief to the allged funding problems of Thai hospitals.

 

 

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

2 minutes ago, Martyp said:

Pacific Cross is a Thai company and is one of the companies on the website. My policy is approved to meet the regulations and my agent told me yesterday that it had been uploaded on the TGIA database. They will also sync my next policy (January 2020) to whatever my 1-year extension date is (November) and prorate the yearly fee accordingly. It's a 10,000,000 baht policy.

 

That's exactly what they're supposed to do... to make things work under the O-A regime!

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

7 minutes ago, lkv said:

Only if you apply for a visa outside.

 

For extension, it must be Thai, and authorised (meaning participating in the tgia scheme).

 

It's pretty clear from the Police Order that no foreign insurance will be accepted for an extension of stay.

 

But, that wouldn't necessarily prevent a person from obtaining annual O-As and a new foreign insurance certificate along with those, obviously requiring a trip back home each year. But as I've said several times, we really don't know yet whether first year means the first year only of the program, or more probably, the first year of any given O-A visa.

 

If that were possible, of course, it wouldn't do anything for extensions of stay. But it might be a way of staying in Thailand on an ongoing basis on annually issued O-As and keeping only a foreign insurance policy.... Assuming the visa holder stayed in Thailand all year and didn't travel out until just prior to the end of their original one-year term under the visa.

 

Frankly, the more I think about it, the more I'm inclined to believe that Thai Consulates and Embassies abroad will continue to allow new O-A applications in future years and will allow foreign insurance to be accepted as part of the O-A application process...  And as long as a person has an O-A visa with an insurance notation from the Embassy or Consulate, that should satisfy Immigration for the duration of that visa.

 

[Thaidream]

14 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

rankly, the more I think about it, the more I'm inclined to believe that Thai Consulates and Embassies abroad will continue to allow new O-A applications in future years and will allow foreign insurance to be accepted as part of the O-A application process...  And as long as a person has an O-A visa with an insurance notation from the Embassy or Consulate, that should satisfy Immigration for the duration of that visa

I believe you are correct but it's a long haul to go from Thailand to the US simply to avoid Thai insurance but the cost  might actually be cheaper .  IMO it would be better to let the O-A lapse and attempt to get a Non O which carried no requirement for insurance.

 

 

[La Migra]

Lots of complaints about Thai Consulates and Immigration not accepting foreign insurance coverage and specifically "TRICARE" for US military vets and dependents.   But no actual reports of someone trying to use TRICARE to qualify for this insurance requirement, and no reports of TRICARE being asked to provide the certification letter - just speculation that it will not be accepted.

Also, while requesting the US embassy to intervene on behalf of this issue is a good path - and it appears US State Dept is already doing so ..... might I suggest that if you have TRICARE coverage - you start contacting TRICARE directly to see if they will supply the required certification.

When a company which provides insurance coverage in a country sees that there is a new requirement - they generally don't just abandon the business... their legal department jumps to work, and they satisfy the need.

[Mango Bob]

5 minutes ago, La Migra said:

Lots of complaints about Thai Consulates and Immigration not accepting foreign insurance coverage and specifically "TRICARE" for US military vets and dependents.   But no actual reports of someone trying to use TRICARE to qualify for this insurance requirement, and no reports of TRICARE being asked to provide the certification letter - just speculation that it will not be accepted.

Also, while requesting the US embassy to intervene on behalf of this issue is a good path - and it appears US State Dept is already doing so ..... might I suggest that if you have TRICARE coverage - you start contacting TRICARE directly to see if they will supply the required certification.

When a company which provides insurance coverage in a country sees that there is a new requirement - they generally don't just abandon the business... their legal department jumps to work, and they satisfy the need.

I am a member of a Tricare facebook group in Thailand.  We are planning to write to the Embassy about Tricare insurance and would like to see us added to their website. 

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

32 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

I believe you are correct but it's a long haul to go from Thailand to the US simply to avoid Thai insurance but the cost  might actually be cheaper .  IMO it would be better to let the O-A lapse and attempt to get a Non O which carried no requirement for insurance.

 

Some folks -- apart from the O-A insurance mess and any Thailand visa considerations -- make more or less annual trips back to their home country to visit family, for the holidays, etc etc...  It's possible, an annual O-A visa application process with foreign insurance could be added to that on an ongoing basis.

 

But yes, an O visa and then converting to an O visa-based extension of stay would be another way to avoid the O-A insurance mess, at least for the time being. Some folks, though, like the advantage of the O-A in being able to keep their money/finances in their home country and not have to import it into Thailand.

 

Of course, the day may also come when the insurance requirement is expanded beyond just the O-A sector, and that could very well end up pulling the O visa into the same racket... It hasn't happened yet, but there's a lot of speculation it may be coming.

 

 

Edited November 9, 2019 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[GeorgeCross]

2 hours ago, Thaidream said:

I would also add that as part of a review on this issue - the Government  should seriously consider allowing anyone on a long stay entry or extension to buy into the Thai Social Security  system (Medical Only).  The rate paid by anyone in this system is 457 Baht per month which allows use of Thai Government Hospitals and any private Hospital that  accepts the coverage. As part of this- a co-pay  could be attached to stop any frivalous use of the system.

 

i think that this is a brilliant idea. the average thai gets to pay 457 baht every month of his or her working life meanwhile Jonny Foreigner turns up for 12 months and gets his bad lifestyle choices fixed for a pittance. i can see this being wildly popular with expats. thais not so much.

 

 

[Peter Denis]

4 minutes ago, GeorgeCross said:

 

i think that this is a brilliant idea. the average thai gets to pay 457 baht every month of his or her working life meanwhile Jonny Foreigner turns up for 12 months and gets his bad lifestyle choices fixed for a pittance. i can see this being wildly popular with expats. thais not so much.

Imo it's indeed a good idea worth considering.

Also nobody would object if the annual premium for Jonny Foreigner would be doubled or even tripled (depending on age of participant) and that would be fair as the subscribers would be in the higher-risk bracket of +50 years old.

[rhodie]

Another one in with no insurance.

[jackdd]

12 minutes ago, GeorgeCross said:

i think that this is a brilliant idea. the average thai gets to pay 457 baht every month of his or her working life meanwhile Jonny Foreigner turns up for 12 months and gets his bad lifestyle choices fixed for a pittance. i can see this being wildly popular with expats. thais not so much.

They could make another approach:

Sell a lifetime membership in the Thai social insurance, maybe for 500k (the average employed Thai pays about 250k in the system in his working life)

Charge a premium for preexisting conditions. One time payment, insured for life.

Edited November 9, 2019 by jackdd

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Just now, rhodie said:

Another one in with no insurance.

 

You might have also noted the moderator of that group had the following comment re the above report you posted:

 

Quote

Robert Lagas Thanks for the information. For some good news, for others not so good news. There are still different reports on how Immigration at check points handle this new requirement. You did by land border, others came in by air.

 

[Sheryl]

Problem with the above is we have no idea what he came in on. Could have been a re-entry permit in which no news.

[lkv]

 

 

22 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

Problem with the above is we have no idea what he came in on. Could have been a re-entry permit in which no news.

He said "had my "visa" since April" and "got stamped for another year".

 

Those two statements cannot be both true on either the last entry of a non O-A with re-entry permit or extension with re-entry permit.

 

If say he is confused about the difference between a visa and an extension of stay, had he been on an extension of stay obtained from local Immigration in April, and a multiple re-entry permit, he would have only been stamped for about 6 months.

 

And he said he was stamped for 12 months, with "whatever" issued in April.

 

So he came on a multi non O-A issued in April.

Edited November 9, 2019 by lkv

[brianj1964]

24 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

Problem with the above is we have no idea what he came in on. Could have been a re-entry permit in which no news.

After many members saying I was here illegally and facing overstay fines and bans, recent reports have been positive, I might sleep better tonight 

[UncleMhee]

20 minutes ago, lkv said:

33 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

Problem with the above is we have no idea what he came in on. Could have been a re-entry permit in which no news.

He said "had my "visa" since April" and "got stamped for another year".

He said he had an O-A. O-A's are multi entry i.e. every time you re-enter you get another year up to your "Enter before date".....if he got stamped in for another year he came in on one of those entries. If he came in on a re-entry permit he would've been stamped in until his permission to stay date.

Edited November 9, 2019 by UncleMhee

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

2 hours ago, pookondee said:

I can accept that.

It would be one thing if the Thai policies actually covered you for +/- 1-2 million baht..

like they should...

 

The part you're missing is... there are O-A certified Thai health insurance policies that are available with coverage amounts of more than 1 million, 5 million and even 10 million baht. And premiums not all that different than the very limited 400/40K policies, especially if you opt for annual policy deductibles that can reduce your premium by 25 to 50%.

 

You want to be looking at the general public Pacific Cross policies in their policy lines by the names of Standard Extra, Premier, Maxima and Ultima.  I would avoid the top-of-the-list Platinum 1-3 policies, as those are the low cover, high cost ones you're complaining about that were created just for the farang visa market.

 

 

https://www.pacificcrosshealth.com/en/longstay-visa/

 

Edited November 9, 2019 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[Mapguy]

8 hours ago, Sheryl said:

I completely understand and agree.

 

Suggest you write your Embassy.

 

And whatever you do, do nto chose option b) above. Solves one problem but leaves you wide open to worse ones.

Not all companies are reasonable.  For example, Health Care International (HCI) based in London (and popular in some places in Thailand, such as Hui HIn and Chiang Mai) insists on a much higher premium to add OP coverage in some cases plus insisting on being reviewed once again by their underwriting people.

[GeorgeCross]

1 hour ago, brianj1964 said:

After many members saying I was here illegally and facing overstay fines and bans, recent reports have been positive, I might sleep better tonight 

you'll really sleep better when you go to a local immigration office and enquire about whether your stamp is correct, or you can spend the next 11 months 3 weeks reading every post on TV about insurance. your call 

 

[Sheryl]

13 hours ago, Mapguy said:

Not all companies are reasonable.  For example, Health Care International (HCI) based in London (and popular in some places in Thailand, such as Hui HIn and Chiang Mai) insists on a much higher premium to add OP coverage in some cases plus insisting on being reviewed once again by their underwriting people.

All the international policies charge a lot for including general opd cover because they are providing much, much more than 40k with a 1500-2000 baht per visit limit.  None sell policies with that sort of low level OPD cover because there is no remand for it, because it makes absolutely no sense.

 

In addition most foreign inpt-only policies do provide significant opd cover. Typically outpatient cancer treatment and dialysis (which the Thai 1500 baht per visit policies won't begin to cover) and up to the total max which is usually US 1 million. Often also all outpatient costs for 30 days after a hospital admission as well as prior to a hospitalization. I recently had more then 45,000 baht in outpatient bills paid in full by my hospitalization-only policy because it followed a hospitalization.  I would argue that these types of OPD cover represent considerably more than the required 40k cover.

 

For those who haven't studied these approved policies, that 40 or 60 k of OPD cover is capped at no more than 1500 or 2000  baht per visit (including meds, tests etc). So you would have to incur 30 visits in a year to use the full cover, which would be very unusual. Conversely people who have high OPD bills will end up with very little of it cove4ed because it won't have been 30 1500 baht visits,  it will have been say 5-6 visits some of them running to 10k or more due to tests, expensive meds etc.  The foreign policies would actually cover this. These "approved" policies will not. The "40k outpt" is virtually a mirage the way it is structured.

 

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

20 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

For those who haven't studied these approved policies, that 40 or 60 k of OPD cover is capped at no more than 1500 or 2000  baht per visit (including meds, tests etc). So you would have to incur 30 visits in a year to use the full cover, which would be very unusual. Conversely people who have high OPD bills will end up with very little of it cove4ed because it won't have been 30 1500 baht visits,  it will have been say 5-6 visits some of them running to 10k or more due to tests, expensive meds etc.  The foreign policies would actually cover this. These "approved" policies will not. The "40k output" is virtually a mirage the way it is structured.

 

Sheryl, I agree with what you're saying about the limited value of OPD included policies that limit their coverage to XXXX baht per visit... But it's worth noting, while the Standard Extra and Premier policies above from Pacific Cross have their OPD coverage limited that way, their higher level Maxima and Ultima policies have OPD coverage up to the policy maximums, subject to "normal and customary" expenses. So those two policy lines don't suffer from the shortcoming that you're addressing.

 

As for the lower level and less expensive policies, it's also worth remembering that unless the current rules change, there may well end up being folks who already have quality home country or international coverage that's valid here but still need to end up purchasing an O-A certified Thai policy solely for visa/Immigration purposes, in which case they might well end up wanting just the lowest-priced Thai option they can find.

 

 

Edited November 9, 2019 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[brianj1964]

1 hour ago, GeorgeCross said:

you'll really sleep better when you go to a local immigration office and enquire about whether your stamp is correct, or you can spend the next 11 months 3 weeks reading every post on TV about insurance. your call 

 

I'm going up to Kalasin in 2 weeks, I would have to show my passport to the immigration there to inform them of my presence, then I will know, given that it's not only me, at least 4 in the last 24 hours is there a possibility that I have committed no crime?

Edited November 9, 2019 by brianj1964
Add more content

[rhodie]

29 minutes ago, brianj1964 said:

I'm going up to Kalasin in 2 weeks, I would have to show my passport to the immigration there to inform them of my presence, then I will know, given that it's not only me, at least 4 in the last 24 hours is there a possibility that I have committed no crime?

Hopefully in the next week we see this trend continuing. But it would appear you have nothing to worry about. Let's hope so.

[jacko45k]

12 hours ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

Only the Thailand based insurers are listed on the TGIA O-A insurance website.

 

The foreign insurers, there's no O-A list of them. It's simply a matter of making sure the policy covers Thailand and has at least the required minimum OPD and IPD coverage amounts, and then having the foreign insurer sign and certify that on the form itself.

 

That is requiring a lot of them.... but if they want the Thai based custom! And who wants to shell out 50-100,000 baht on something that might not work at your immigration office. 

Edited November 9, 2019 by jacko45k

[Peter Denis]

10 hours ago, brianj1964 said:

I'm going up to Kalasin in 2 weeks, I would have to show my passport to the immigration there to inform them of my presence, then I will know, given that it's not only me, at least 4 in the last 24 hours is there a possibility that I have committed no crime?

Of course you did not commit any crime!

You simply got a different stamp than all the other pre Oct 31 issued OA Visa holders that entered same day with you.

It looks now - at least from latest info available on TVF - that it was not you, but all the others that were stamped in wrong.  And that the 'error' of your stamp, was in fact correct.

When you go to Kalasin Immigration Office in 2 weeks as you plan to, it would be wise to enquire whether your 1 year permission to stay date is indeed correct.  In 2 weeks for sure the dust should have settled and all confusion be weeded out by then.

If they say > permission to stay is correct, then there is nothing more to worry about.  And not only you but all TVF-members are hoping for such an outcome, which at this moment looks likely.

If they say > not correct and need health-insurance, you know at least where you stand, and can consider your options.  E.g. leave the country and apply for an Non Imm O, or take the @#$% health-insurance.

Note: But under no circumstance you should subscribe for the HI-policies offered on-the-spot as these are as good worthless and exorbitantly priced, and there are thai-approved health-insurance policies (e.g. Pacific Cross) that are no rip-offs.

Success, and enjoy your stay in LOS!

 

Edited November 10, 2019 by Peter Denis

[mfd101]

I renewed my Extn of Stay on ground of Retirement on 10 October (Kap Choeng). That was my 3rd renewal after O/A entry in 2015 & renewal in 2016. I have no health insurance.

 

If I exit Thailand between now & October 2020, with a reentry permit, am I safe to be readmitted without insurance?

[ubonjoe]

37 minutes ago, mfd101 said:

If I exit Thailand between now & October 2020, with a reentry permit, am I safe to be readmitted without insurance?

Yes

[mfd101]

16 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

Yes

Thanks. I thought I probably was but reading TV makes one nervous.

 

Currently I have 11 months before having to face whatever the cold hard facts of insurance-in-Thailand are by then ... Hope for the best, prepare (eventually) for the worst.