Scotland must be given new independence vote - Sturgeon

[RuamRudy]

49 minutes ago, vogie said:

Evant

But why would you ask that question, are you genuinely curious or just being a tad sarcastic, you know I havn't but still nice to have a dig eh.

I asked you it because you asked me the very same question.

 

2 hours ago, vogie said:

As I said, it is so difficult to get through to nationalists, incidentally do you think that these people are traitors. 

I 

 

 

 

[vogie]

6 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

I asked you it because you asked me the very same question.

 

 

 

 

I showed you proof, what have you showed me into your regard to your ill worded accusation, all you have done is deflected.

[RuamRudy]

3 minutes ago, vogie said:

I showed you proof, what have you showed me into your regard to your ill worded accusation, all you have done is deflected.

Here is what I wrote in its entirety:

2 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

Have you used it to describe remainers? On that point, I have genuinely no idea, but the way it is banded around so readily by Brexiteers, it seems rather ironic that you might be accusing others of doing what your own side (and maybe yourself) are only too quick to do.  

I would wager that even the sharpest of legal minds would struggle, with those two sentences, to arrive at the same conclusion you seem intent on pushing. Faux outrage much?

 

But going by this last post of yours, are you suggesting that the Brexit movement has not liberally hurled accusations of anyone and everyone not enthralled with their cult to be a traitor?

[vogie]

15 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

Here is what I wrote in its entirety:

I would wager that even the sharpest of legal minds would struggle, with those two sentences, to arrive at the same conclusion you seem intent on pushing. Faux outrage much?

 

But going by this last post of yours, are you suggesting that the Brexit movement has not liberally hurled accusations of anyone and everyone not enthralled with their cult to be a traitor?

It would be a lot more honest if you just admitted that the SNP are dividing Scotland and accusing other Scots that don't buy into the SNP ideaology of being traitors, which was my original statement than pushing this deflection about Brexit. Why are you putting words into my mouth, I havn't suggested anything of what you are accusing me of.

Are you not the least bit concerned when you see Scots nationalist amassing like this, hatred is not good.

 

[herfiehandbag]

5 hours ago, Rookiescot said:

Why would the EU not want an independent Scotland? Oil. Massive fishing rights. A stable country which already adheres to the EU's standards. A country which will be a net contributor

This does rather raise a number of questions.

 

Whilst the SNP has said that it would wish for an independent Scotland to join the EU, has the EU said it will allow an independent Scotland to join?

 

Would an independent Scotland meet the criteria required to join the EU - rather than expecting a special case to be made for them. Whilst the French might support them - anything to stick mud in the eye of the "Rosbiffs" - would the rest of the EU be so enthusiastic. It is perhaps unwise in the end, to rely too much upon the French!

 

What about the currency - the rock upon which so many arguments foundered last time round. If an independent Scotland is still (as seems probable) using Sterling, then they will not, by definition, be fiscally independent and therefore able to join the Euro.

 

However stable, prosperous and we'll endowed with oil and fish, will an independent Scotland meet the fiscal requirements of an EU application, and if it does will the economic measures necessary to achieve that be acceptable to it's people.

 

There are plenty more such questions which can be asked, and will have to be answered if you wish to realistically consider membership of the EU.

 

Personally I suspect that such an application will take quite some years to complete, and will require an independent Scotland creating and maintaining its own currency as a precursor. If the economic case for an independent Scotland is dependent on EU membership, that will cause major problems. Carts coming before the horse and all that!

Edited August 13, 2020 by herfiehandbag

[transam]

11 minutes ago, vogie said:

It would be a lot more honest if you just admitted that the SNP are dividing Scotland and accusing other Scots that don't buy into the SNP ideaology of being traitors, which was my original statement than pushing this deflection about Brexit. Why are you putting words into my mouth, I havn't suggested anything of what you are accusing me of.

Are you not the least bit concerned when you see Scots nationalist amassing like this, hatred is not good.

 

That swastika made me laugh....For obvious reasons, ..................????

[RuamRudy]

3 minutes ago, vogie said:

It would be a lot more honest if you just admitted that the SNP are dividing Scotland and accusing other Scots that don't buy into the SNP ideaology of being traitors, which was my original statement than pushing this deflection about Brexit. Why are you putting words into my mouth, I havn't suggested anything of what you are accusing me of.

Are you not the least bit concerned when you see Scots nationalist amassing like this, hatred is not good.

 

 

 

I will be honest with you  vogie, I am hugely disappointed in you taking this utterly disingenuous approach. Time and again, when challenged, you fail miserably to offer any validation whatsoever for the smears you throw out.

 

Scotland divided? Nothing to back up your false claims;

SNP anti-English? Nothing to back up your false claims;

SNP branding non supporters as traitors? Nothing to back up your false claims.

 

Yet repeat them, you do. Those are the cheap tricks of a corrupt politician who knows he has nothing to offer but bluster and diversion. 

 

For the record, Scotland has proudly rejected the Nasty Party at every single election since 1955. Unionists and Independence supporters alike come together in their revulsion at the tories. Your photos, therefore, are representative of the majority of Scots' opinions of the Tories regardless of where they stand on independence. 

 

Furthermore, I have accused you of nothing, but we both know with 100% certainty how often remainers have been accused of being traitors and quislings. 

 

 

[RuamRudy]

10 minutes ago, transam said:

That swastika made me laugh....For obvious reasons, ..................????

If you think that's funny, this will get you rolling in the aisles then.

 

Edited August 13, 2020 by RuamRudy

[transam]

8 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

 

 

I will be honest with you  vogie, I am hugely disappointed in you taking this utterly disingenuous approach. Time and again, when challenged, you fail miserably to offer any validation whatsoever for the smears you throw out.

 

Scotland divided? Nothing to back up your false claims;

SNP anti-English? Nothing to back up your false claims;

SNP branding non supporters as traitors? Nothing to back up your false claims.

 

Yet repeat them, you do. Those are the cheap tricks of a corrupt politician who knows he has nothing to offer but bluster and diversion. 

 

For the record, Scotland has proudly rejected the Nasty Party at every single election since 1955. Unionists and Independence supporters alike come together in their revulsion at the tories. Your photos, therefore, are representative of the majority of Scots' opinions of the Tories regardless of where they stand on independence. 

 

Furthermore, I have accused you of nothing, but we both know with 100% certainty how often remainers have been accused of being traitors and quislings. 

 

 

You just don't like factual evidence....

[transam]

1 minute ago, RuamRudy said:

If you think that's funny, this will get you rolling in the aisles then.

 

Yes, all countries have tools......

 

 

 

[RuamRudy]

2 minutes ago, transam said:

You just don't like factual evidence....

If that is your response, I am not sure that you understand what those words mean.

[RuamRudy]

1 minute ago, transam said:

Yes, all countries have tools......

 

 

 

Indeed they do - but in the context of this thread, the photos I posted were of Unionists in Scotland doing Nazi salutes. 

[melvinmelvin]

10 minutes ago, herfiehandbag said:

This does rather raise a number of questions.

 

Whilst the SNP has said that it would wish for an independent Scotland to join the EU, has the EU said it will allow an independent Scotland to join?

 

Would an independent Scotland meet the criteria required to join the EU - rather than expecting a special case to be made for them. Whilst the French might support them - anything to stick mud in the eye of the "Rosbiffs" - would the rest of the EU be so enthusiastic. It is perhaps unwise in the end, to rely too much upon the French!

 

What about the currency - the rock upon which so many arguments foundered last time round. If an independent Scotland is still (as seems probable) using Sterling, then they will not, by definition, be fiscally independent and therefore able to join the Euro.

 

However stable, prosperous and we'll endowed with oil and fish, will an independent Scotland meet the fiscal requirements of an EU application, and if it does will the economic measures necessary to achieve that be acceptable to it's people.

 

There are plenty more such questions which can be asked, and will have to be answered if you wish to realistically consider membership of the EU.

 

Personally I suspect that such an application will take quite some years to complete, and will require an independent Scotland creating and maintaining its own currency as a precursor. If the economic case for an independent Scotland is dependent on EU membership, that will cause major problems. Carts coming before the horse and all that!

No, the EU as such has not stated that Scotland would be allowed in.

(I am totally convinced that they will if the situation arises)

 

If they prepare some I don't really see that criteria will not be met. Will take effort and satang in Scotland though.

 

re Euro;

my take on this; new members can not opt out of the Euro concept like ie UK and Denmark did,

but meeting the Euro pre req. is not a requirement for EU membership.

However, as soon as they meet the requirements new members must jump on the Euro bandwagon

 

 

[vogie]

13 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

 

 

I will be honest with you  vogie, I am hugely disappointed in you taking this utterly disingenuous approach. Time and again, when challenged, you fail miserably to offer any validation whatsoever for the smears you throw out.

 

Scotland divided? Nothing to back up your false claims;

SNP anti-English? Nothing to back up your false claims;

SNP branding non supporters as traitors? Nothing to back up your false claims.

 

Yet repeat them, you do. Those are the cheap tricks of a corrupt politician who knows he has nothing to offer but bluster and diversion. 

 

For the record, Scotland has proudly rejected the Nasty Party at every single election since 1955. Unionists and Independence supporters alike come together in their revulsion at the tories. Your photos, therefore, are representative of the majority of Scots' opinions of the Tories regardless of where they stand on independence. 

 

Furthermore, I have accused you of nothing, but we both know with 100% certainty how often remainers have been accused of being traitors and quislings. 

 

 

RR you have been shown many times who really is the nasty party, you can call the Tories the nasty party as many times as you like but when someone slightly has the nerve to suggest that the SNP isn't being totally straight with the Scots, it is all hands to the pumps.

The SNP comes across to many as a very strict cult whose orders must be followed and obeyed at all times without question, anybody with a different opinion to the SNP must be closed down at all costs, they play on the nationalist hatred of the English to get their messages across.

Here is George Gallaway on QT explaining very eloquently as only he can on how the SNP operate, from 2013 but just as true today as it was then.

 

 

[transam]

1 minute ago, RuamRudy said:

If that is your response, I am not sure that you understand what those words mean.

You are getting like 49.....................????....................????

[scammed]

46 minutes ago, herfiehandbag said:

Personally I suspect that such an application will take quite some years to complete, and will require an independent Scotland creating and maintaining its own currency as a precursor.

quite on the contrary, eu prefer a unified currency (euro)

[Rookiescot]

1 hour ago, herfiehandbag said:

This does rather raise a number of questions.

 

Whilst the SNP has said that it would wish for an independent Scotland to join the EU, has the EU said it will allow an independent Scotland to join?

 

Would an independent Scotland meet the criteria required to join the EU - rather than expecting a special case to be made for them. Whilst the French might support them - anything to stick mud in the eye of the "Rosbiffs" - would the rest of the EU be so enthusiastic. It is perhaps unwise in the end, to rely too much upon the French!

 

What about the currency - the rock upon which so many arguments foundered last time round. If an independent Scotland is still (as seems probable) using Sterling, then they will not, by definition, be fiscally independent and therefore able to join the Euro.

 

However stable, prosperous and we'll endowed with oil and fish, will an independent Scotland meet the fiscal requirements of an EU application, and if it does will the economic measures necessary to achieve that be acceptable to it's people.

 

There are plenty more such questions which can be asked, and will have to be answered if you wish to realistically consider membership of the EU.

 

Personally I suspect that such an application will take quite some years to complete, and will require an independent Scotland creating and maintaining its own currency as a precursor. If the economic case for an independent Scotland is dependent on EU membership, that will cause major problems. Carts coming before the horse and all that!

Scotland might not want to join the EU.

That will be a matter to be decided after we get independence.

But first and foremost we need to be free of that shower in Westminster first.

[melvinmelvin]

54 minutes ago, transam said:

You are getting like 49.....................????....................????

 

49ers do not fit well in soi RR

 

[Rookiescot]

46 minutes ago, vogie said:

RR you have been shown many times who really is the nasty party, you can call the Tories the nasty party as many times as you like but when someone slightly has the nerve to suggest that the SNP isn't being totally straight with the Scots, it is all hands to the pumps.

The SNP comes across to many as a very strict cult whose orders must be followed and obeyed at all times without question, anybody with a different opinion to the SNP must be closed down at all costs, they play on the nationalist hatred of the English to get their messages across.

Here is George Gallaway on QT explaining very eloquently as only he can on how the SNP operate, from 2013 but just as true today as it was then.

 

 

One thing is a given in politics.

If you find yourself on the same side of the arguments as Galloway then you are on the wrong side.

 

Do you also support his position on Hezbollah?

 

[RuamRudy]

 

1 hour ago, vogie said:

The SNP comes across to many as a very strict cult whose orders must be followed and obeyed at all times without question, anybody with a different opinion to the SNP must be closed down at all costs

Who are these many? Can you cite examples which would prove these many to be correct in their claim?

 

1 hour ago, vogie said:

they play on the nationalist hatred of the English to get their messages across.

What nationalist hatred of the English? The Brexiteers' hatred of foreigners has never been more evident than it is now, as the nascent racism is nakedly on display on our TVs, in our papers and across ThaiVisa, but there is very little to suggest that Scottish independence has the same racist backbone that Brexit has.

 

1 hour ago, vogie said:

Here is George Gallaway on QT explaining very eloquently as only he can on how the SNP operate, from 2013 but just as true today as it was then.

 Good god, what has happened to the UK where it is deemed unacceptable to use a Guardian link in a discussion, but George Galloway is somehow credible? If you want to hang your hat on George Galloway's peg, fair enough. More than a few have fallen for his charm. Oh - and there's that word, traitor, again. Good to see he's been rehabilitated. 

 

 

[RuamRudy]

53 minutes ago, melvinmelvin said:

 

49ers do not fit well in soi RR

 

When I lived on Soi RR, it was a very welcoming place indeed - all sorts seemed to end up in Witches' Tavern.

[vogie]

What nationalist hatred of the English? The Brexiteers' hatred of foreigners has never been more evident than it is now, as the nascent racism is nakedly on display on our TVs, in our papers and across ThaiVisa, but there is very little to suggest that Scottish independence has the same racist backbone that Brexit has.

 

Going off topic again to preserve the integrity of the SNP????????. 

The UK is the least racist country in europe, I know you don't like the truth, but bare with me. You are not a racist just because you don't want illegal gimmigrants illegally entering into the country, now can I suggest you stay on topic for once.

 

 

[melvinmelvin]

yes, good an laid back soi,

brilliantly located, been there a LOT