Bailing Out / Jumpin Ship

[kingdong]

49 minutes ago, Ron jeremy said:

I also have read and spoke to countless people who can't leave. Cut ties back home, Thai wife and family, big home they can't sell, 

insufficient funds to setup somewhere else etc etc etc.

many many say if they knew then what they know now they would have never done it. And if they had the means they would be gone in a heartbeat. 

Dont get me wrong, some have great lives here.f

a huge complaint ID the 800 k in the bank, many have the funds, but refuse to leave it there, 

if they have health coverage, why the 800?

Thailand is essentially a third world country with first world aspirations.

[sirineou]

People spend hours complaining about the time and inconvenience if filing for an extension .

If you don't have $27,000 to spare you are not ready to retire and should continue working.

IMO to retire one needs at least $250k in assets and a pension or other income .

[BestB]

Let me ask all those claiming to leave because of visa, and be honest .

 

if baht was to crash tomorrow and rates were back to usd—40, aud/cad30, gbp-60-70, euro-50, would you be packing up?

 

yes I admit , locals have become more angry but do not think it’s directed at foreigners per say. Locals are rude to each other just as bad, bad economy, no money , they getting mad instead of getting better.

 

big c, never had so much mad and rude service in my 20 years here as I get now, but it’s not only me, my staff say the same. 
 

everyone hates the government and hates each other , everyone is in debt and getting worse , prices are rising , people are stressed and angry 

[BestB]

20 minutes ago, Denim said:

Can't understand why those who choose to leave feel the need to shout it from the rooftops ?

 

 It's not a crime to decide to check out somewhere else ?

 

If you want to move it shouldn't be an issue , just a personal choice.

Perhaps seeking approval they doing the  right thing 

[sirineou]

22 minutes ago, Denim said:

Can't understand why those who choose to leave feel the need to shout it from the rooftops ?

 

 It's not a crime to decide to check out somewhere else ?

 

If you want to move it shouldn't be an issue , just a personal choice.

Because they need confirmation.They need others to tell them ,everyone is doing it .it's not just them,

[sirineou]

2 hours ago, DannyCarlton said:

What changes? The only change I know of is citizens of certain countries no longer being able to lie about their incomes. The amounts required are exactly the same as they were in 2014.

Your love gives me such a thrill

but your love can't pay my bill

I need Votes!!

So go to the POTY tread and vote for me.

So far only me and my Mom have voted for me  

and please put on a shirt, will you!!   LOL

 

[DannyCarlton]

1 minute ago, sirineou said:

Your love gives me such a thrill

but your love can't pay my bill

I need Votes!!

So go to the POTY tread and vote for me.

So far only me and my Mom have voted for me  

and please put on a shirt, will you!!   LOL

 

Sorry, I'd love to but I've already voted. What a waste of a vote., my bet faded when he ate too many dum sim. 555

[sirineou]

2 minutes ago, DannyCarlton said:

Sorry, I'd love to but I've already voted. What a waste of a vote., my bet faded when he ate too many dum sim. 555

Past times it was interesting because people could change their votes. this year it was over before it even started.

[White Christmas13]

24 minutes ago, sirineou said:

People spend hours complaining about the time and inconvenience if filing for an extension .

If you don't have $27,000 to spare you are not ready to retire and should continue working.

IMO to retire one needs at least $250k in assets and a pension or other income .

Try that in Australian dollars 38450

[hmficc]

39 minutes ago, sirineou said:

People spend hours complaining about the time and inconvenience if filing for an extension .

If you don't have $27,000 to spare you are not ready to retire and should continue working.

IMO to retire one needs at least $250k in assets and a pension or other income .

Aren’t we special.

[sirineou]

2 minutes ago, White Christmas13 said:

Try that in Australian dollars 38450

No disrespect intended, and i sympathise about the predicament my Australian friends find with the exchange rate. But average Australian household income is about  20K higher, so the difference is a wash., 

Think about it they require that you have in the bank the price of a pickup truck for <deleted>'s sake 

I get it that some people might not have it, and I might be wrong, 

I truly don't mean to insult anyone,but if someone can not afford 800k baht , not to give, but to keep in the bank. one is not ready to retire IMO. Some might not have a choice and maybe of no fault of their own, but that's not Thailand's problem 

I hope I explained myself without sounding like a huge Ahole.

[sirineou]

2 minutes ago, hmficc said:

Aren’t we special.

Nothing special, not the brightest light bulb in the christmas tree either, but after a lifetime of work IMO , one should have at least paid for a home, paid in a 401k or similar instrument and have some sort of a pension coming.

"

According to this survey by the Transamerica Center for Retirement Studies, the median retirement savings by age in the U.S. is:

• Americans in their 20s: $16,000
• Americans in their 30s: $45,000
• Americans in their 40s: $63,000
• Americans in their 50s: $117,000
• Americans in their 60s: $172,000

"  

https://www.synchronybank.com/blog/median-retirement-savings-by-age/

I worked my ass off in the trades to get what we have. so did my wife.

[White Christmas13]

2 minutes ago, sirineou said:

No disrespect intended, and i sympathise about the predicament my Australian friends find with the exchange rate. But average Australian household income is about  20K higher, so the difference is a wash., 

Think about it they require that you have in the bank the price of a pickup truck for <deleted>'s sake 

I get it that some people might not have it, and I might be wrong, 

I truly don't mean to insult anyone,but if someone can not afford 800k baht , not to give, but to keep in the bank. one is not ready to retire IMO. Some might not have a choice and maybe of no fault of their own, but that's not Thailand's problem 

I hope I explained myself without sounding like a huge Ahole.

No I would not call you that, what I mean some pensioners with no other income

can't afford to park that amount in the bank. Hence not be able to get a health

insurance ones you over 70 unless you are rich. I lived in Thailand for many years

sold my business in OZ had 2 superannuation sold my house, invested in Thailand

and lost it all and was forced to move back. I never blamed Thailand for that I just

made the wrong choices. What I mean some people just can't afford it anymore.

And the cost of living in the west is not dearer depends where you live. I only have

my pension now pay rent now and still can afford to spend my holidays twice a year

in Thailand. We have beautiful climate where I live, it gets a bit cool in winter

sometimes but I don't even have a heater or aircon for summer.

[impulse]

5 hours ago, DannyCarlton said:

What changes? The only change I know of is citizens of certain countries no longer being able to lie about their incomes. The amounts required are exactly the same as they were in 2014.

 

Before 2014, nobody needed to lie or have money in the bank.  They just had to be able to get to the border every 30 days, cross over and cross back that same day.  If they had a 5 year overstay, they cleared it up on the spot for 20,000 baht and came back that same day.  In fact, lots of guys calculated the cost of clearing up an overstay and chose that route because it was cheaper than the monthly border runs.  

 

Anyone who didn't feel like monthly border runs could just sign up for a class and get an ED visa.  Showing up in class was optional...

 

I know guys who lived in Thailand for decades on those 2 loopholes alone.  Confident in their future, because Thailand needs their foreign money after all.  No way it was going to get worse for them. 

 

And you may recall, there was no requirement for insurance on any visa or extension type in 2014.

 

You may disagree with the loopholes, but claiming there have been no changes since 2014 is just plain wrong.  So is the certainty it won't get any worse in the future.  It may not.  But there's been 5 years of history showing the screws are tightening.  And the time you don't want to find out you can't get the future required insurance (or meet some other future criteria) is when you're old to sell everything you own and shut down your life in Thailand and move on.

 

 

Edited December 21, 2019 by impulse

[Teak]

I did like the old days, when if you stayed in Thailand too long you had to pay for an exit stamp to leave Thailand. This was not a visa overstay fine.  The infamous 'Dragon Lady looked you in the eye and said 500 baht, 100 baht or if you argued 1,500 baht. The Government figured you stayed too long, so you must have made some money and not paid tax,,,,so they taxed us when leaving, or not let us leave. Numerous times I had given a few hundred baht to broke expats so they could leave....or help them pawn a few things. This was in Chiengmai in the late 80's.

For myself I continue to do the 6 month shuffle so no problems with visa or insurance. However, at age 67 and owning a house in my daughters name, my home ownership is secure in Thailand, but my physical body is not as secure in Thailand for the next 15 years. What is the point of a retirement visa if you cannot meet the medical insurance requirements in our later years. Ideally retirement is all about securing security, when we may find ourselves most vulnerable. Elder security in Thailand appears to be becoming most vulnerable. 

The main problem is that most of us have learned some Thai, spent years understanding Thai cultural norms and survived it. I don't think I have the energy or time left to take on another culture. Recently I was in Cambodia a few times.... and just back to being a tourist...not able to ask directions to the toilet !

BTW, an English friend of mine (age 80) on multiple 30 day visas a extensions is in the UDOn hospital for multiple issues with old age. He has no money and was transferred to a Government hospital where he is receiving great care for free.

[meechai]

12 hours ago, Gonzo the Face said:

Is there a large exodus of expats or is this just a perception. 

I cannot say for certain & doubt anyone other than Thai Immigration can (but they would never say)

 

But....I will say & you probably remember ...That starting around 2014 many long time CM expats did in fact start leaving & continue to do so.

Not folks who did not have $$ either like so many newbies like to claim as the sole reason.

 

But longtime well settled expats. Even folks like Duke (Duke's restaurants) sold up around that time yes?

Many other business owners that I know & you knew sold & left starting from roughly that time.

 

Did they see the writing on the wall? These were not sexpats blind to everything but the price of beer,flesh & 30 baht meals.

 

 

 

 

 

[mokwit]

All those who are gloating because they are financially secure while others are being forced to leave might wake up and find the Thai Govt has changed things in a way you can't comply with - how about if they make it that you have to be educated to Masters Degree level to get a retirement visa? In my generation NOBODY did a Masters degree - what are you going to do, go back to school at 80? In Thailand you have always had to have a Masters to be considered "educated" - they might think they can prevent undesirable falangs retiring here by stipulating an education level.

 

As for financial security, I guess many here who type "get out" are not self made but on gold plated legacy (LEGACY, got it?) corporate or Fed/State pensions. Some private pensions are already cutting payments. Some states are bankrupt (declared or otherwise) and an electorate who can't fund their own retirement are increasingly going to balk at funding the gold plated retirements of Federal/state paper pushers- some who can retire very well off at 50. This is increasingly being noticed by those whose efforts actually create the wealth of the Nation.

 

 

[saengd]

11 hours ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

Yours is a vastly oversimplified post and comment. Yes, the loss of income affidavits caught some folks out. But there were/are many others who had previously used the income affidavits and DO have the monthly income, but may also have expenses in their home country, may have their income arrive irregularly instead of exactly monthly, may not like the hassles and expense of having to do exactly 12 monthly international transfers, and then have Immigration say NO because one of them fell on the 31st of the month instead of the 1st, etc etc.

 

And then all the other changes that I listed above started getting piled on top of the income affidavits problem. So even if a person wasn't affected by the income affidavits, they likely were affected by the changes about keeping bank deposits untouched and/or the looming requirement for a largely unworkable health insurance requirement that easily could have made better but wasn't.

 

All the reasons you listed John are valid but ultimately the key reason for leaving boils down to a lack of funds, Thailand has simply become too expensive for many people. There's a lot of shouting by expats about the way Immigration is treating them, how Thai's don't like farangs and how government is out to get them. But all of that is noise designed to vent the frustration of being broke and to cover up the real reason for leaving.

 

Thinking back over the past eighteen years here, very little has changed for me personally when it comes to interaction with Immigration and government, the forced switch to a marriage visa because of the health insurance regulation was a pain but the new rule is not an altogether bad one, albeit poorly implemented and not well thought through. Many posters like to claim that various aspects of Thailand are out to get them and eventually in their minds this includes everything from Immigration to air pollution to road traffic accidents, it's a state of paranoia almost! I think it's a huge mistake to confuse general ineptitude and lack of competence with targeted spite and malice, expats are subject to the former, not the latter, even the too high value of THB is a symptom of that.

[amexpat]

So many posters claim money is the only reason people are leaving.

 

Some people know the price of everything and the value of nothing. 

[saengd]

3 minutes ago, amexpat said:

So many posters claim money is the only reason people are leaving.

 

Some people know the price of everything and the value of nothing. 

Money is not the only reason but I'm pretty certain that in the vast majority of cases it is the main reason. For some it will be a combination of reasons, for some it may be principles, for some it may be pollution vs health and so on and so on. But for the 80% or better it's going to boil down to a lack of funding, that's nothing to be ashamed of, the combination of visa tightening rules that have cut off the income letter, plus the extremely strong Baht were not predictable by everyone.

[chingmai331]

I like living here.  The air quality could be better but i surely do not like Cleveland Ohio winters so can accept some discomfort.  The local folks i interact with here are friendly and so am i towards them.

I keep myself fit and avoid stupid choices of life.

My home country is too 'auto centered' for me, nearly everyone there is in a steel cage running with rage. 

I've been to some other SE Asia places and for all its big and small faults, i choose Thailand.

[mokwit]

38 minutes ago, saengd said:

Money is not the only reason but I'm pretty certain that in the vast majority of cases it is the main reason. For some it will be a combination of reasons, for some it may be principles, for some it may be pollution vs health and so on and so on. But for the 80% or better it's going to boil down to a lack of funding, that's nothing to be ashamed of, the combination of visa tightening rules that have cut off the income letter, plus the extremely strong Baht were not predictable by everyone.

It is the now constantly shifting sands - a total lack of security at an age when you need it. As I said, the next eliminator might not be financial.

[Langsuan Man]

Since the government has never provided any realistic figures on numbers of "long stay" type of visas that are issued there is no way to answer the OP original question on whether or not many are "bailing"

 

Unfortunately we are stuck with only anecdotal information

 

So everyone has to make their own decision on whether or not it is worth the effort to stay in a country that has proved over and over again that expats are not wanted, only short time tourists  

[saengd]

1 minute ago, Langsuan Man said:

Since the government has never provided any realistic figures on numbers of "long stay" type of visas that are issued there is no way to answer the OP original question on whether or not many are "bailing"

 

Unfortunately we are stuck with only anecdotal information

 

So everyone has to make their own decision on whether or not it is worth the effort to stay in a country that has proved over and over again that expats are not wanted, only short time tourists  

FWIW I think the government wants both expats and tourists but on their terms, especially the former. I continue to believe the current tightening of regs. has come about because they were previously abused by so many people.

[yogi100]

15 hours ago, mokwit said:

Its not how things are currently for those of us who could cope with the extra financial requirements without selling a single shipping line or brewery and whose staff handle TM30 etc,  it's what changes might come in the future when we are less able to adapt or we get thrown a curve ball that is impossible to comply with - insurance mandatory but can't get it over 75 type things.

 

Extra tedium may also get too much - IMO what's coming:

3m in the bank and prove any you were allowed to take out spent in Thailand (already for OX so why not retirement extension)

Police clearance home country and Thailand (already for OX so why not retirement extension)

Insurance (already for OX so why not retirement extension)

 

 

What is OX?

[yogi100]

14 hours ago, BoonToong said:

I've lived in TL for 8 years. I'm now looking at other places to live for when my 'Retirement Visa' expires March 2020. A number of reasons, any of which in isolation would be kind ok, but when looked at as a whole, it's just a pain in the buttocks. Here are some of my reasons:

 

• The 'GF experience' doesn't seem to exist any more - I used to really enjoy that
• Increased alcohol prices
• Increased 'entertainment' prices (of the frolicking kind)
• Immigration woes
• Exchange rate
• A general feeling of animosity from the locals that I wasn't aware of before

Alternatives I'm looking at include Florida (I love Mickey Mouse), Philippines, Europe and West Africa

Bang on the nail

 

What's TL?

[MyTHaiMyKe]

Thailand is not a retirement friendly country! They do not want us here. They want tourist to come spend their money and get out!

[mokwit]

3 minutes ago, yogi100 said:

What is OX?

10 year (2x5yr) retirement visa obtainable at embassy/consul outside Thailand. The Key point is that it was introduced by the Govt/cabinet that this current one is an extension of - so you can see their thinking on this (no crystal ball needed).

[yogi100]

13 hours ago, Traubert said:

It is my firm belief that those who boast of leaving (and their plethora of 'friends and aquaintances/family/neighbours/Fred down the pub') are really crying in their beer in some god-forsaken backwater like Vietnam or Laos and feeling their heart strings inexorably tugging in the direction of Thailand. They only visit here seeking validation.

 

Never jump before you're pushed.

Always jump before you're pushed. You can then decide where you want to land.

 

It's all about Preparation and Location.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 22, 2019 by yogi100

[jonwilly]

I dine at mainly 2 places with a 3rd occasionally.

At the 2 regular places, I know the owners well, I have been told that one has lost 15 regular customers and the other estimates 12.

Now these are married men with frang wives so that's 54 gone and most have stated Visa problems. The place I use say twice a week just says numbers of frangs are down.

Thai Immigration matters have been badly handled by the authorities.

A proper Full Statement of intentions would have not have caused so many folk to leave.

Thailand s lost id someone else's gain, most where pensioners brining in regular foreign exchange to Thai Economy.

 

john

Edited December 22, 2019 by jonwilly
spelling