What is this, how to replace?

[Swiss1960]

So I have this safeguard / fuse outside on the wall. Cable comes from the roof, goes out on the top to a socket where the washing machine is plugged and on the bottom to the pool house with pump and varioius lights and sockets. 

 

What I don't understand is that turn switch which goes form 5mA to 15mA to 25mA to "Direct". It has always been on Direct, never used anything else. Electric installation in the pool hous for pump is brand new with it's own surge protection and pool lights have their own transformators. 

 

So why do I need this one and what would I exhange it with, i.e. e "normal" fuse as I have them inside the house (see pic 2). Actually the right mose fuse on the second picture also protects the whole outside area with pool, washing machine etc, so I somehow think that I have like two safeguards in a row... 

 

Hope my description is not too confusing and thanks in advance for your help

[Crossy]

What you have is an RCBO a device essential to your safety. Unfortunately having it set to "Direct" turns off the safety features ????

 

Does it stay on if set to 25mA?

 

If it does, leave it like that (use the "Test" button to check it actually works), if it does not then you have a wiring problem.

 

The trouble with earth-leakage faults is that the kit works just fine, until it doesn't, at which point people die!

 

What does it actually feed? It really should be installed on the incoming supply to protect all your circuits.

 

 

[Swiss1960]

8 minutes ago, Crossy said:

What you have is an RCBO a device essential to your safety. Unfortunately having it set to "Direct" turns off the safety features ????

 

Does it stay on if set to 25mA?

 

If it does, leave it like that (use the "Test" button to check it actually works), if it does not then you have a wiring problem.

 

The trouble with earth-leakage faults is that the kit works just fine, until it doesn't, at which point people die!

 

 

Thanks a lot, @Crossy. 

tested it. When on 25mA, the red direct light goes off and the equipment behind still works (i.e. pump, sockets) still works. When I press "test", the blue breaker comes down and switches everything off. 

 

Just two questions

- what is the difference between this RCBO and my fuses in the kitchen (as i said, the right most also protects the same area)?

- as I don't like the way it is wired (see how the cables are split and could at any time get a splash of water...), what should I use to replace it since I don't need any of the other mA options?

[Crossy]

25 minutes ago, Swiss1960 said:

I don't need any of the other mA options

 

Yes you do!!!!

 

An RCBO protects you and your family from DEATH, that's DEATH, due to electric shock by cutting the power when current goes where it shouldn't (through you).

 

If you want to replace it, replace it with a similar device (but that one seems to work so why bother).

 

Tidy up the wiring, a bit of PVC mini-trunking works wonders, but don't remove a safety device.

 

Far too many people, including foreigners, die every year from electric shock, often from things that are not expected to be live (metal fences). Please don't join those statistics.

 

EDIT This pinned thread has lots of information on RCD/RCBOs 

https://forum.thaivisa.com/topic/693823-faq-and-useful-documents/

 

 

[Swiss1960]

1 hour ago, Crossy said:

 

Yes you do!!!!

 

An RCBO protects you and your family from DEATH, that's DEATH, due to electric shock by cutting the power when current goes where it shouldn't (through you).

 

If you want to replace it, replace it with a similar device (but that one seems to work so why bother).

 

Tidy up the wiring, a bit of PVC mini-trunking works wonders, but don't remove a safety device.

 

Far too many people, including foreigners, die every year from electric shock, often from things that are not expected to be live (metal fences). Please don't join those statistics.

 

EDIT This pinned thread has lots of information on RCD/RCBOs 

https://forum.thaivisa.com/topic/693823-faq-and-useful-documents/

 

 

Hi Crossy I start to understand

So for your initial question about feed, the way I can see / "test" it, the electricity comes into the house, then goes to the fuse board in the kitchen (the grey one in the second picture) which I now assume is a series of MCB's???

 

From there, the wiring goes outside to this RCBO. If I switch off the right mose circuit breaker with the C16 6000 writing on it, then the outside RCBO and every device behind is dead also. 

 

So it looks to me as if the kitchen breaker and the outside RCBO are kind of just behind each other, which of course I have no idea why this was done this way. 

 

Since there is no "test" button on the inside panel, I do assume that there is no RCBO for the house internal wirings?

[Crossy]

2 minutes ago, Swiss1960 said:

Since there is no "test" button on the inside panel, I do assume that there is no RCBO for the house internal wirings?

 

Correct. 

 

It's odd that your RCBO is wired like that, they usually stick them in front of the main breaker, but of course that means that you get plunged into darkness if it trips

 

Wired as it is and protecting your outdoor stuff and pool it's doing a decent job covering the high-risk areas.

 

Do you have an electric water heater?

[Swiss1960]

16 minutes ago, Crossy said:

 

Correct. 

 

It's odd that your RCBO is wired like that, they usually stick them in front of the main breaker, but of course that means that you get plunged into darkness if it trips

 

Wired as it is and protecting your outdoor stuff and pool it's doing a decent job covering the high-risk areas.

 

Do you have an electric water heater?

I feel very lucky @Crossy to have found an expert... 

Yes, I have a new 100l outdoor boiler (Stiebel Eltron) and some testing just showed me that the socket used is behind the breaker labeled "kitchen1" and not the RCBO... furthermore, I am not really sure that the boiler is actually earthed... however, according to the manual, the boiler has an integraded ELCB in the cable, pic of which I attach.

 

Would you recommend that I reconnet the socket for the boiler to behind the RCBO? Would that make sense?

[Crossy]

6 minutes ago, Swiss1960 said:

Would you recommend that I reconnet the socket for the boiler to behind the RCBO? Would that make sense?

 

With the in-cable "ELCB" (it's really an RCD or RCBO) there's no need, do verify that the outlet has a ground if the boiler has a 3-pin plug.

[VocalNeal]

Just for general interset what should an RCBO/GFI be set to. Technically there should be no leakage? 

One would think it should be set to the lowest value possible?

[Swiss1960]

7 minutes ago, Crossy said:

 

With the in-cable "ELCB" (it's really an RCD or RCBO) there's no need, do verify that the outlet has a ground if the boiler has a 3-pin plug.

Boiler has a 2-pin-plug as delivered

[Crossy]

3 minutes ago, VocalNeal said:

Just for general interset what should an RCBO/GFI be set to. Technically there should be no leakage? 

One would think it should be set to the lowest value possible?

 

Since this one is supplying the pool I'd set it to the lowest value that it will reliably remain on.

 

General use fixed units are 30mA, our pool is on a fixed 10mA beastie.

 

The value of 30mA is pretty arbitrary, it's the current that's non-lethal to >90% of the adult population, children, the elderly and the infirm have a lower tolerance.

[Crossy]

1 minute ago, Swiss1960 said:

Boiler has a 2-pin-plug as delivered

 

Can you post a photo of the plug please, some "2-pin" plugs are really Schuko grounded plugs. It's also worth a photo of the info plate of the boiler which should indicate if it's double insulated.

 

Actually the instructions that came with it should have all the necessary info.

[Swiss1960]

30 minutes ago, Crossy said:

 

Can you post a photo of the plug please, some "2-pin" plugs are really Schuko grounded plugs. It's also worth a photo of the info plate of the boiler which should indicate if it's double insulated.

 

Actually the instructions that came with it should have all the necessary info.

Attached pics from the manual,  that's all I find in the 5 pages about electric installation and pic of the plug which came with the boiler

 

37 minutes ago, Crossy said:

 

Since this one is supplying the pool I'd set it to the lowest value that it will reliably remain on.

 

General use fixed units are 30mA, our pool is on a fixed 10mA beastie.

 

The value of 30mA is pretty arbitrary, it's the current that's non-lethal to >90% of the adult population, children, the elderly and the infirm have a lower tolerance.

For me, it's a bit more than just the pump, also have pool, garden and patio lights, fridge and TV and occasionally my treadmill, electric grill etc

[Metropolitian]

I'm going to jump in, not only one person should post the helm, the wind could be too strong for only two arms and an navigator is needed too.

Let me recap the story above and write some additional information.

 

[Metropolitian]

Many answers are already given but will post again and with additional information.

 

 

3 hours ago, Swiss1960 said:

So why do I need this one and what would I exhange it with, i.e. e "normal" fuse as I have them inside the house 

That is an earth leaking safety device (technically RCBO, we keep call it that).

It protects YOU from the hazards of faults, electricity goes then from the device TROUGH you to the earth. Which can lead, as Crossy already said, death.

 

The ''normal fuses'' are plain breakers which trips on overloads rated in Amps.

 

The majority of people will be seriously hurt when the current is higher than 30mA in a time of : 30-40ms or lesser, old BS standard was 300ms so beware old rcbo's

Your rcbo trip time detection is 0.03-0,07 sec (30-70ms) which is 'acceptable' for a rcbo to 25mA.

 

1 Amp is 1000mA.

 

30 mA . This is only 0.03 Amp. 

Fuses and breakers (MCB) will NOT protect you.

They protect the wires and the appliances.

 

 

3 hours ago, Swiss1960 said:

that turn switch which goes form 5mA to 15mA to 25mA to "Direct"

Many RCBOs in America (There it is called CFCI) are set on 5mA.

In Europe 30mA for the standard RCBO.

Crossy already said why 30mA and there is a group the other 10% for which the 30mA is still deadly.

In rooms/homes for elders, children, and.. PETS a lower setting is preferred.

 

For wet environment (for everybody) a lower settings is also preferred, as your body can be wet so more conductive.

Remember the 30mA ? That is just with dry skin. Wet skin will conduct more and is more dangerous.

In areas with pool / open shower (in a shower room there are supposed to be no appliances except an isolated heater)

 

Teacher said: For the same reason not wash your hand before and wearing wet socks when changing a light bulb.

 

3 hours ago, Swiss1960 said:

 

- what is the difference between this RCBO and my fuses in the kitchen (as i said, the right most also protects the same area)?

See above.

And for the right most 'fuse' in the fusesbox (Consumer Unit) the RCBO is connected in series to that breaker.

So the RCBO is only protecting the Pool/Washing/Patio area.

 

 

3 hours ago, Swiss1960 said:

- as I don't like the way it is wired (see how the cables are split and could at any time get a splash of water...), what should I use to replace it since I don't need any of the other mA options?

You can tidy it up with cable conduits.

Can you see the wire diameter? If it says 1.5x2 on the wire shield do consider replacing the wires it seems very thin for the rate of the breaker (rated 16A) and the rcbo (rated 50A, which will be cut but not trip by the breaker at 16A).

 

3 hours ago, Crossy said:

If you want to replace it, replace it with a similar device (but that one seems to work so why bother).

Double protection. In case the old RCBO fails..

I here have two rcbo's in series. Well, 3 rcbo's are connected to that first one which is an 500mA version and then for the areas the 30mA ones.

The first is not protecting people when that current goes trough the heart but does trip on a substantial earth leak.

 

2 hours ago, Swiss1960 said:

then goes to the fuse board in the kitchen (the grey one in the second picture) which I now assume is a series of MCB's???

Not really. They are connected in parallel. Like a comb with breakers on each of the inner comb prongs.

The circuitry is; the breakers are fed with energized life wire from the main breaker, in your case with a rail hidden on the backplane of the 'fusebox'/Customer Unit.

From there the electricity flows trough the breaker to the loads and then the used electricity returns to the box connected to a shared rail (neutral).

 

If series, when one breaker is off then everything would be off like a classic christmas light string. Unscrewing one bulb, everything goes off.

 

1 hour ago, Swiss1960 said:

Yes, I have a new 100l outdoor boiler (Stiebel Eltron) and some testing just showed me that the socket used is behind the breaker labeled "kitchen1" and not the RCBO...

 

Not an Schuko plug.

This is a TIS 2 prong plug.

 

Which is for unearthed devices AND for devices that have a separate connection for the earth.

The Stiebel Eltron need to be earthed. In your case it should have a fixed earth wire from the boiler to the earth system.

 

AND, read the following:

 

The boiler should (yes should, not just intended) be fixed the same way as all the fixed aircons and smaller boilers.

Not with a plug, which is for moveable devices.

 

The boiler need to be connected with fixes wires, preferable with a isolator switch (you can use a breaker switch for this),

The earth wire should never be disconnected.

 

From your posts it seems it is connected to the kitchen group.

Assumed would be an socket was placed outside and taped on the group of the kitchen.

Questions would arise: are they decently wired? (earth, wire size..)

The best is, rewire with fixed decently sized wire to breaker 4.

 

 

[Swiss1960]

1 hour ago, Metropolitian said:

 

Not an Schuko plug. This is a TIS 2 prong plug.

 

Which is for unearthed devices AND for devices that have a separate connection for the earth.

The Stiebel Eltron need to be earthed. In your case it should have a fixed earth wire from the boiler to the earth system.

 

The boiler should (yes should, not just intended) be fixed the same way as all the fixed aircons and smaller boilers.

Not with a plug, which is for moveable devices.

 

The boiler need to be connected with fixes wires, preferable with a isolator switch (you can use a breaker switch for this),

The earth wire should never be disconnected.

 

From your posts it seems it is connected to the kitchen group. Assumed would be an socket was placed outside and taped on the group of the kitchen. Questions would arise: are they decently wired? (earth, wire size..) The best is, rewire with fixed decently sized wire to breaker 4.

 

Thanks for all your information @Metropolitian. Knowing how this is a Thai wired installation where one socket has 2x1.5mm and other 3x2.5mm, I start to see what happened...

 

the guy who installed the boiler cut the white cable just after the ECLB and "wired" it to the black cable (using black insulation tape) which has this TIS 2 prong plug that you described. So I guess if I "unwire" the black cable, I will see 3 wires coming out... now I have no clue about how the plug is wired, whether the earth has a connection or not or if they installed a 3-phase socket with a 2-wire cable... as I have seen many of my sockets being connected, from the various installations I did after having bought the house. 

 

And seing how the current RCBO only has 2 wires in and out, I guess the same will be true for the socket for the boiler... so how on earth do I solve the earthing problem... 

 

what do you mean with breaker 4? The thing is, the boiler socket is probably connected through the wall to somewhere behind my kitchen consoles which I would need to break out to find it... so probably the easiest would be to connect it to somewhere different like the existing RCBP breaker using a 3x2.5mm cable... however, what does this solve when the RCBP itself is connected only with 2 wires? 

 

Thai and their cheap 2x1.5mm wires... no standards that they would follow.. and every other Thai seems to be an electrician, no matter what he normally does.. 

[Crossy]

It's easy enough to bash in a ground rod and run a bit of 2.5 from it to the ground connection of the boiler outlet. That takes care of the boiler safety.

 

What about any other Class-1 appliances you have, fridge/freezer, washer, kettle, desktop PC, aircon? All should be grounded (or at least supplied via an RCBO) to be safe.

 

Is this your home or a renter?

 

Can you post a photo of your distribution box with the lid off, let's get an idea what we're dealing with (I can guess).

 

[bankruatsteve]

15 minutes ago, Swiss1960 said:

So I guess if I "unwire" the black cable, I will see 3 wires coming out... now I have no clue about how the plug is wired, whether the earth has a connection or not or if they installed a 3-phase socket with a 2-wire cable... as I have seen many of my sockets being connected, from the various installations I did after having bought the house. 

 

And seing how the current RCBO only has 2 wires in and out, I guess the same will be true for the socket for the boiler... so how on earth do I solve the earthing problem... 

Does the receptacle have 3-hole socket(s)?  If so, chances are there is ground in the box and you could then connect directly to L,N,E.  (Don't forget to off the breaker.)  BTW; the term normally used is "3-pin socket" (not 3-phase).

 

An RCBO normally does not carry ground so 2 wires in and out would be correct.

 

See Crossy's post if the receptacle does not have ground wire to it.

 

[Swiss1960]

2 hours ago, Crossy said:

It's easy enough to bash in a ground rod and run a bit of 2.5 from it to the ground connection of the boiler outlet. That takes care of the boiler safety.

 

What about any other Class-1 appliances you have, fridge/freezer, washer, kettle, desktop PC, aircon? All should be grounded (or at least supplied via an RCBO) to be safe.

 

Is this your home or a renter?

 

Can you post a photo of your distribution box with the lid off, let's get an idea what we're dealing with (I can guess).

 

see pics, that is what it looks behind the panel.

Definitely, the only appliances behind an RCBO are washer, pool pump and patio equipment (including fridge, oven, electric bbq). No idea that any of the inside appliances are grounded or at least plugged to a 3-wire socket... with 3-wire I mean that the socket has but not sure about the wires behind... 

[Crossy]

Pretty typical I'm afraid, but I do see a bunch of green wires and a ground bar in there. Now if your outlets are actually connected to it along with a rod you're pretty good to go ????

 

[Metropolitian]

2 hours ago, Crossy said:

Can you post a photo of your distribution box with the lid off, let's get an idea what we're dealing with (I can guess).

And one from the boiler, there where the cable goes to the connection box.

If possible, with the box open so we can check whether earth is connected or not.

[Metropolitian]

30 minutes ago, Swiss1960 said:

Definitely, the only appliances behind an RCBO are washer, pool pump and patio equipment (including fridge, oven, electric bbq).

Not sure about that.

We can see that the outlet of the breaker has two wires connected. One of those either the black or red wire goes to the RCBO.

You can check the appliances in these areas with the breaker ON but the RCBO off.

 

Edit:

I am afraid that in the boilers connection box earth is connected but interrupted where the white cable and black cable with the two prongs are joined.

That 'mini-rcbo' used to have a 3 prong plug.

 

Edited January 25, 2020 by Metropolitian

[CharlieH]

A reported post in a strange format has been removed.

[Swiss1960]

@Crossy and @Metropolitian

 

Thanks for your input again and apologies for not answering before, was busy with many tasks. So here is what happened in the mean time:

 

I checked the socket where the boiler was plugged in and I unwired the black cable that was connected to the mini-rcbo of the boiler.. and surprise, both ended up having three wires and now, they are directly attached to each other and covered with a yellow box, see first picture.. so I guess I am good to go here

 

Then I had the RCBO re-wired and as one of you suggested, the socket for the washing machine actually was NOT behind the RCBO but connected with two wired directly, these were the cables coming out directly on the top. This is now changed and I run the RCBO and all equipment behind on 15mA without any problems so far. 

 

Finally one more question for the washing machine plug: there are only 2 wires going from the RCBO to the plug. However, not seen by me previsously, some "electrician" previously attached an earth wire to the plug, wired it through the roof and connected it to a kind of steel rod / big nail on top of my outer wall.. see the third picture of the wire going out behind the rain water pipe.. not sure what I should do with that one? Any thoughts from you please?

 

 

[sometimewoodworker]

1 hour ago, Swiss1960 said:

Finally one more question for the washing machine plug: there are only 2 wires going from the RCBO to the plug. However, not seen by me previsously, some "electrician" previously attached an earth wire to the plug, wired it through the roof and connected it to a kind of steel rod / big nail on top of my outer wall.. see the third picture of the wire going out behind the rain water pipe.. not sure what I should do with that one? Any thoughts from you please?

That sounds as if it is connected to the steel rebar in your wall. If that is correct then it is a UFER ground and probably as good or better than an earth rod in the ground. So do not disconnect it. If you are concerned then you can ADD a normal ground rod.