Underground water leak - where to start !!

[sometimewoodworker]

On 2/15/2020 at 8:21 AM, Andrew Dwyer said:

I will probably change the bladder tank just to tick it off the list and if possible get get some more experienced advice on the pump.

That would have no effect if it is just the bladder that has a hole.

To have the pump cycling when all outlets are off means a continuous (though slow) loss of water, a puncture in the bladder will mean that when on there is nothing in the system to absorb pressure differentials so water hammer and other similar things happen. So for this problem it’s a red herring.

On 2/15/2020 at 8:41 AM, saengd said:

perhaps consider using HDPE pipe, continuous, no joins, much stronger than blue pipe and no impact from temperature changes.

Not a good idea as high pressure HDPE or even LDPE is not available in Thailand or if you can get it, it will be a special order and good luck with finding anyone to do that.

 

PPR is the best next option as it’s available, the joints can never leak it’s usable with a hot water supply if you want to have one.

[saengd]

5 minutes ago, sometimewoodworker said:

That would have no effect if it is just the bladder that has a hole.

To have the pump cycling when all outlets are off means a continuous (though slow) loss of water, a puncture in the bladder will mean that when on there is nothing in the system to absorb pressure differentials so water hammer and other similar things happen. So for this problem it’s a red herring.

Not a good idea as high pressure HDPE or even LDPE is not available in Thailand or if you can get it, it will be a special order and good luck with finding anyone to do that.

 

PPR is the best next option as it’s available, the joints can never leak it’s usable with a hot water supply if you want to have one.

LDPE in almost every size is widely available all over Chiang Mai and I do mean everywhere, HDPE is also not uncommon.

[sometimewoodworker]

40 minutes ago, saengd said:

LDPE in almost every size is widely available all over Chiang Mai and I do mean everywhere, HDPE is also not uncommon.

And the pressure rating for that is?
 

Sure the low pressure thin wall pipe is dead easy to find but there is no way that the standard wall thickness of the black pipe above (probably HDPE) is remotely close to the green one (PPR) under. Now I agree that the pipe showing is targeted at electrical use but the water use ones are virtually the same.

 

Please prove me wrong.

 

There is a composite plastic/metal pipe system available from a few shops but it’s the only other one I know of that is suitable. 

Edited February 16, 2020 by sometimewoodworker

[saengd]

2 minutes ago, sometimewoodworker said:

And the pressure rating for that is?
 

Sure the low pressure thin wall pipe is dead easy to find but there is no way that the standard wall thickness of the black pipe above (probably HDPE) is remotely close to the green one (PPR) under. Now I agree that the pipe showing is targeted at electrical use but the water use ones are virtually the same.

 

Please prove me wrong.

 

There is a composite plastic/metal pipe system available fro a few shops but it’s the only other one I know of that is suitable. 

I really don't care if you don't believe me and I'm not going to try and prove anything to you. If the OP or anyone else wants to wander around Camptien (flower and gardens) Market, Global House or Thai Watsadu in Chiang Mai they will find an ample array of LDPE and HDPE, blue and red striped pipe, in coils in different sizes, as they will at other retail outlets.

 

Now go argue with somebody else.

[sometimewoodworker]

12 minutes ago, saengd said:

I really don't care if you don't believe me and I'm not going to try and prove anything to you. If the OP or anyone else wants to wander around Camptien (flower and gardens) Market, Global House or Thai Watsadu in Chiang Mai they will find an ample array of LDPE and HDPE, blue and red striped pipe, in coils in different sizes, as they will at other retail outlets.

 

Now go argue with somebody else.

As I said high pressure use LDPE or HDPE is not available the wall thickness needed is around 3mm+ for a 32mm pipe and the pipe you can find is around 1mm.

 

The pipe you are talking about is good for the purpose, outdoor supply and irrigation, but useless inside a house.

 

It certainly is cheaper than PVC and PPR and that is because it is not designed for the same job or pressures.

There is LDPE/HDPE high pressure pipe used in other countries but not hear yet 

 

Edited February 16, 2020 by sometimewoodworker

[carlyai]

Not sure if this helps. I had a leak and put stop valves on all the branches away from the pump. I isolated the leak back to pipes under tiles and cement. If it is a substantial leak, (I think my pump was on about every 5 to 10 mins) you should see a large washed out area when you dig under the tiles/cement. I started at the pipe coming from the pump outlet, broke through a few tiles and cement and there was the washed out area. Joint had let go. This area hadn't been disturbed since tiling. Just failed. 

[saengd]

16 minutes ago, sometimewoodworker said:

As I said high pressure use LDPE or HDPE is not available the wall thickness needed is around 3mm+ for a 32mm pipe and the pipe you can find is around 1mm.

 

The pipe you are talking about is good for the purpose, outdoor supply and irrigation, but useless inside a house.

 

It certainly is cheaper than PVC and PPR and that is because it is not designed for the same job or pressures.

There is LDPE/HDPE high pressure pipe used in other countries but not hear yet 

 

https://globalhouse.co.th/Fillter/search/1?q=hdpe

 

https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/pe-pressure-grades-d_668.html

[sometimewoodworker]

11 minutes ago, saengd said:

https://globalhouse.co.th/Fillter/search/1?q=hdpe

 

https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/pe-pressure-grades-d_668.html

Global house reference is low pressure Agriculture use pipe that, as I’ve agreed is easy to find, and completely unsuitable for domestic house use.

 

 

[saengd]

3 minutes ago, sometimewoodworker said:

Global house reference is low pressure Agriculture use pipe that, as I’ve agreed is easy to find, and completely unsuitable for domestic house use.

 

 

Minimum domestic pressure required in the West is 20 psi, anything under 40 psi is considered low, 80 psi is high.

https://www.plumbingsupply.com/residential-water-pressure-explained.html

 

PN8 HDPE pipe is 125 psi,

 

Global House sells PN8 and PN10, as shown by the link supplied.

 

Now enough of your argumentative posts for gods sake, I'm putting you on my ignore list so argue with yourself.

[Andrew Dwyer]

2 hours ago, carlyai said:

Not sure if this helps. I had a leak and put stop valves on all the branches away from the pump. I isolated the leak back to pipes under tiles and cement. If it is a substantial leak, (I think my pump was on about every 5 to 10 mins) you should see a large washed out area when you dig under the tiles/cement. I started at the pipe coming from the pump outlet, broke through a few tiles and cement and there was the washed out area. Joint had let go. This area hadn't been disturbed since tiling. Just failed. 

Yeh I’ve uncovered a couple of areas that I thought might have been possible leaks ( 1 was where I tee’d in for a hosepipe, the other where the tiler put a nail into the existing concrete and straight into the pipe below ) , neither with any success.

Next step is to uncover where the pipework goes underneath the house, cap it off and test again. If the pump then stops cycling my leak is somewhere in the abyss and time to look at replacing the whole system ☹️

 

Mine is about every 10 minutes now, am turning the pump off at night, luckily the breaker is reachable out the bedroom window .

Edited February 16, 2020 by Andrew Dwyer

[rumak]

As Lopburi says,  plastic pipes outside can be hidden fairly well.   The houses I have had built ( except for one in the very beginning)  all had bathrooms and kitchens either in back or on a side wall, so easy access .   Even if pipes are placed in the wall when first building,  if there ever is a problem then I can just run a new pipe outside the affected toilet, sink or shower (up the wall on outside)  and then into the bathroom where the valve for that fixture is.

Having interior rooms with plumbing that runs in the slab are nightmares if a leak occurs.

[sometimewoodworker]

22 hours ago, saengd said:

I'm putting you on my ignore list

Thank you.

[Andrew Dwyer]

Soo, I managed to uncover the point where the pvc underground pipework disappears under the house/slab, i cut it and capped it off, turned the pump back on and of course the pump behaved normally, no cycling.

 

So unless by some miracle the leak shows itself i’m going to have to replace the whole lot .

Oh well, c’est la vie ( as they say in Bradford ???? ).

 

[carlyai]

9 hours ago, Andrew Dwyer said:

Soo, I managed to uncover the point where the pvc underground pipework disappears under the house/slab, i cut it and capped it off, turned the pump back on and of course the pump behaved normally, no cycling.

 

So unless by some miracle the leak shows itself i’m going to have to replace the whole lot .

Oh well, c’est la vie ( as they say in Bradford ???? ).

 

Just a 'grasping at straws' thought. Got any lose tiles or hollow sounding tiles? Could be the leak under them ????

[Andrew Dwyer]

7 minutes ago, carlyai said:

Just a 'grasping at straws' thought. Got any lose tiles or hollow sounding tiles? Could be the leak under them ????

I’ll continue to monitor the situation, give the house a thorough once over before doing anything drastic.

Am turning the pump off at night as it is bloody annoying now and probably flick the switch when we go out also.

[Andrew Dwyer]

3 hours ago, carlyai said:

Just a 'grasping at straws' thought. Got any lose tiles or hollow sounding tiles? Could be the leak under them ????

To be honest unless the leak appears in a wall it’s a non starter.

I uncovered the pipe going underneath the house by breaking 75 mm of reinforced concrete walkway, the kitchen floor is another 350 mm above that, that is one almighty slab !!

[Peter Denis]

13 hours ago, Andrew Dwyer said:

So unless by some miracle the leak shows itself i’m going to have to replace the whole lot .

Oh well, c’est la vie ( as they say in Bradford ???? ).

>> Glad you found it!

 

[sometimewoodworker]

5 hours ago, Andrew Dwyer said:

To be honest unless the leak appears in a wall it’s a non starter.

I uncovered the pipe going underneath the house by breaking 75 mm of reinforced concrete walkway, the kitchen floor is another 350 mm above that, that is one almighty slab !!

It’s very unlikely that the slab is that thick. Almost certainly you have about 300mm of (possibly compacted) earth then the kitchen floor on that.

[chickenslegs]

Hi Andrew.

Just clutching at straws again here - I haven't read every previous post, so this may have been mentioned already:

Today my underground tank was empty (apparently there has been no mains water for a couple of days, but we didn't know).

The second indication of a dry tank was that the pump started running constantly (the first was that I was covered in shower gel with no water to rinse it off).

Anyway, my point is that these pumps are self-priming and always seeking to keep pressurized.

Is it possible that a faulty foot valve in your tank, or a blockage of silt/debris in the pipe from tank to pump (or inside the pump itself) could cause the cycling? i.e. - the pump can't get enough water or is losing water back into the tank.

I have had 2 failed foot valves in the past 10 years. They both caused constant cycling.

My thought is that a partially failed foot valve, or a blockage could cause intermittent cycling.

 

[The Fat Controller]

I know your pain !

We knew we had 3 separate entry points into the house, found 2 and capped the leaky one but never did find the actual leak as it was under a floor.

Luckily it was the kitchen inlet that was leaking so going overground and through the wall was not too difficult or unsightly.