Interesting take from Sweden

[GroveHillWanderer]

1 hour ago, UbonThani said:

100 years ago

totally irrelevant

Why - because viruses have changed the way they've always worked for millennia, in the last 100 years? (Hint: they haven't).

 

Also, the strain of flu (H1N1) that caused the Spanish flu is still around today.  It caused the swine flu outbreak in 2009 and has been included in the trivalent annual flu shots for both the northern and southern hemispheres every year for at least the last ten years.

[nauseus]

5 hours ago, cornishcarlos said:

 

Really ?? This video first aired on 17th April when they had 1801

 

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1105753/cumulative-coronavirus-deaths-in-sweden/

 

Today they have 2194

 

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/?utm_campaign=homeAdUOA?Si

Yes, really. Your own Worldometer had 1400 for 17th but this VDO "premiered" on 16th when it was 1333. 

[nauseus]

4 hours ago, Logosone said:

Yes, they have doubled from 0.0107 percent of the population to:

 

 0.0213 (today's figure on Johns Hopkins) of the population.

 

Coronapocalypse this ain't.

Coronapocalypse ain't the answer to the question either!

[nauseus]

4 hours ago, Logosone said:

No, it's exactly the other way round.

 

Immunity is the rule. It would be the lack of immunity that is the exception. The burden of proof is on those who would have you believe, quite fantastically, that there is no immunity.

 

We know already that 50% of the people who get it are immune.

 

Of course the WHO is strictly speaking correct, only if you have super extenstive testing of antibodies can you confirm one way or the other, however, immunity is the rule, not the exception. 

 

Certificates are perfectly sensible if re-infection is the exception, rather than the rule. Which most epidemiologists will tell you is the case.

 

"Prof Jon Cohen, emeritus professor of infectious diseases at Brighton and Sussex Medical School, said: “The answer is that we simply don’t know [about reinfection] yet because we don’t have an antibody test for the infection, although we will have soon.

“However, it is very likely, based on other viral infections, that yes, once a person has had the infection they will generally be immune and won’t get it again. There will always be the odd exception, but that is certainly a reasonable expectation.”

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/16/the-big-question-over-coronavirus-can-a-person-get-it-twice

Slow down, expert. WHO are now saying that immunity is not a sure thing after first infection. 

[cornishcarlos]

8 minutes ago, nauseus said:

Yes, really. Your own Worldometer had 1400 for 17th but this VDO "premiered" on 16th when it was 1333. 

 

I was looking at the first link but it still didn't double 

[nauseus]

Just now, cornishcarlos said:

 

I was looking at the first link but it still didn't double 

No, not quite. But it was close.

[Logosone]

The answer to the question is:

 

Sweden is fine.

 

They have extremely small numbers of dead, 0.0213 of the population.

 

Yes, they could have tested a lot more, like Norway and have even better figures.

 

But in the big scheme of things Sweden is doing perfectly fine.

[UbonThani]

46 minutes ago, GroveHillWanderer said:

Why - because viruses have changed the way they've always worked for millennia, in the last 100 years? (Hint: they haven't).

 

Also, the strain of flu (H1N1) that caused the Spanish flu is still around today.  It caused the swine flu outbreak in 2009 and has been included in the trivalent annual flu shots for both the northern and southern hemispheres every year for at least the last ten years.

Wrong. Humans are not the same. Medicine is not the same.

[Logosone]

11 minutes ago, nauseus said:

Slow down, expert. WHO are now saying that immunity is not a sure thing after first infection. 

The WHO has given some excellent advice and has done some excellent work. Mike Ryan telling us that social distancing won't get it done and testing and isolating the infected, taking the fight to the virus has to be done is the best advice anyone has given during this entire pandemic.

 

They have now clarified that there is not sufficient evidence to be certain that people have immunity, however, this is not helpful.

 

It's not strictly speaking wrong. But they should have worded it differently and made clear that immunity is the general rule with viral infections, even if we don't have the conclusive antibody evidence yet.

 

Nobody, btw, ever said that immunity is a sure thing, there are always exceptions, ie re-infections, but as a general rule one would expect immunity after a viral infection. That is what happens.

Edited April 27, 2020 by Logosone

[ravip]

7 hours ago, Rookiescot said:

How is Sweden doing in comparison with Norway? 

https://www.trackcorona.live/map

 

 

Edited April 27, 2020 by ravip

[rvaviator]

6 hours ago, UbonThani said:

Heart disease?

Roads?

UK?

Spain?

 

Yes lets look at facts please

enough scare mongering

oh and you forgot how death are recorded ... They are not recorded the same way in Norway and Sweden ... as the guy explained... That could help to explain the much lower number in Norway  

[Parsve]

6 hours ago, otherstuff1957 said:

Actually not.

 

Sweden: Population about 10 million,  2000+ deaths.

Norway: Population about 5 million, 200+ deaths.

 

But don't let facts get in your way.

And if we should talk about facts. Most people that die of Covid-19 are eldery people. Many of them living (and dying) on retirement home. Sweden reports everyone who dies of Covid-19. Norway , as many other countries, only those that dies of Covid 19 in hospital. Therefore this kind of comparing is useless. If you should compare between countries you have to wait until you have the figures fore how many more than usual have died in every country in a specific time. Then you can compare the per cent per each country. The number will be rough, but the best you can get.  

[rvaviator]

4 hours ago, bokningar said:

Yes, just downloaded the spreadsheet 30 minutes ago. Anyone can do that,  

What is the link please

[steelepulse]

54 minutes ago, ravip said:

https://www.trackcorona.live/map

 

 

 

What would probably be more accurate would be to compare total number of deaths in each country for the past 5 years for the same time period.  As one poster has already looked up the stats for Sweden, the number of deaths this year is down on last year.  How to explain that if covid accounts for  40% of all deaths this year, what killed 40% of the people last year?  I'd dare say it's old age and chronic illness.

[Parsve]

6 hours ago, xylophone said:

  6 hours ago, RobbyXNorway said:

Norway vs Sweeden. Norway has less deaths due to more stringent quarantine and lockdown. But the Sweedish argument is that it is just a delay in numbers because once you HAVE TO open up then the virus will take its toll.

I am not so sure about your first sentence, "Norway has less deaths due to more stringent quarantine and lockdown". One thing that was a part of the Swedish thinking was that all can get the virus and pass it on even if they them self not be sick. So what will happen if we do a total lockdown? Porbably two things as also people working in the hospitals have children. In a totally lockdown; 1. Many working in hospitals have to stay home to take care of their children and then the care on hospital will suffer 2. If they dont stay home the grandparents have to take care of the children and many of those are in a risk group. That was why Sweden let the kindergarden and elementary schools still be open.

 

Then why does Sweden have reported so much more dead people? First of all, Sweden have during the last ten years mounted down the care of eldery (the gouvernment itself admitt that). Secondly, mSweden and Norway are not in the same phase of the pandemic. Third, Sweden report everyone who dies of Covid-19, whilst Norway only report those who die of Covid-19 in hospital.    

[Lacessit]

1 hour ago, Logosone said:

The WHO has given some excellent advice and has done some excellent work. Mike Ryan telling us that social distancing won't get it done and testing and isolating the infected, taking the fight to the virus has to be done is the best advice anyone has given during this entire pandemic.

 

They have now clarified that there is not sufficient evidence to be certain that people have immunity, however, this is not helpful.

 

It's not strictly speaking wrong. But they should have worded it differently and made clear that immunity is the general rule with viral infections, even if we don't have the conclusive antibody evidence yet.

 

Nobody, btw, ever said that immunity is a sure thing, there are always exceptions, ie re-infections, but as a general rule one would expect immunity after a viral infection. That is what happens.

The immunity debate going on in this thread reminds me of the girl that said she was a little bit pregnant.

[KhaoNiaw]

5 minutes ago, steelepulse said:

 

What would probably be more accurate would be to compare total number of deaths in each country for the past 5 years for the same time period.  As one poster has already looked up the stats for Sweden, the number of deaths this year is down on last year.  How to explain that if covid accounts for  40% of all deaths this year, what killed 40% of the people last year?  I'd dare say it's old age and chronic illness.

https://www.thelocal.se/20200427/sweden-records-highest-weekly-mortality-since-the-turn-of-the-century

[bokningar]

56 minutes ago, rvaviator said:

What is the link please

Here you have it, remember it is preliminary so it might change.

Tabell 5 have the numbers I have quoted.

 

https://scb.se/hitta-statistik/statistik-efter-amne/befolkning/befolkningens-sammansattning/befolkningsstatistik/pong/tabell-och-diagram/preliminar-statistik-over-doda/

[chessman]

10 minutes ago, bokningar said:

Here you have it, remember it is preliminary so it might change.

Tabell 5 have the numbers I have quoted.

 

You can interpret this data in different ways. You could sensibly suggest that mortality this year was lower than average until mid March. Then has been much higher compared with year-on-year figures since then due to deaths because of the virus.

 

the article shared by KhaoNiaw makes this very point.

[Blumpie]

8 hours ago, Phulublub said:

If no immunity, we are ALL in big trouble.

 

PH 

 

Not really.  Until a vaccine is here we are all in big trouble.  

There will be no travel.

Not many people will be spending money.

This is the way it will be regardless.  

[Logosone]

1 hour ago, Lacessit said:

The immunity debate going on in this thread reminds me of the girl that said she was a little bit pregnant.

That's actually perfectly possible with immunity, some people can be immune for a while, then cease being immune, they can be immune for a little while.

 

I strongly suspect people in Sweden are more immune than those in Norway or Denmark.

 

Sweden is the Superman of nations the UK so much wanted to be.

[Skallywag]

9 hours ago, steelepulse said:

One thing he thinks is that all countries on lockdown will see a second wave, while Sweden will not.

Time for countries other than Sweden to begin Phase 2, minimizing deaths as much as possible

 

"This virus has turned Americans chronic health liabilities into an acute threat."

Motorcycles, heart conditions, poor health in general takes decades before killings. 

This virus is quick and deadly for those at-risk. Video explains well

 

 

 

[Lacessit]

2 minutes ago, Logosone said:

That's actually perfectly possible with immunity, some people can be immune for a while, then cease being immune, they can be immune for a little while.

 

I strongly suspect people in Sweden are more immune than those in Norway or Denmark.

 

Sweden is the Superman of nations the UK so much wanted to be.

The point I was making is immunity certificates are fairly useless bits of paper, because someone with low immunity could be getting said certificate, then going out to reinfect others.

[bokningar]

23 minutes ago, chessman said:

You can interpret this data in different ways. You could sensibly suggest that mortality this year was lower than average until mid March. Then has been much higher compared with year-on-year figures since then due to deaths because of the virus.

 

the article shared by KhaoNiaw makes this very point.

I never claimed that I know if Sweden is doing right or wrong. I just presented some facts.

And then anyone can look at them and make up their own mind.

I’m rarely ever 100% sure about stuff anymore. The more I know and understand the more I realize how much I still don’t know. And in this case, I haven’t even given my opinion. So, I think it must be hard to tell me I’m wrong lol.

 

[Skallywag]

9 minutes ago, Logosone said:

Sweden is the Superman of nations the UK so much wanted to be.

They also possess Viking blood  ????

Swedish Vikings

The Swedes, then known as Varangians, or Rus. They are very interesting because out of the three they were the ones who stayed true to their pagan ways for the longest.

Edited April 27, 2020 by Skallywag

[chessman]

Amidst all the disagreement about Sweden, there is one thing that can probably be agreed on. The Swedish government, even though they state they think their handling of the crisis has so far been generally successful, often talk about their failures in terms of preventing deaths in care homes. The virus spreading in care homes in the Stockholm region is key to the high death rate there.

 

As countries inevitably open up, we cannot take it for granted that if over 70s and vulnerable people are shielded they will be safe. What has happened in Sweden shows that it is incredibly difficult to shield those people.

[chessman]

7 minutes ago, bokningar said:

I never claimed that I know if Sweden is doing right or wrong. I just presented some facts.

And then anyone can look at them and make up their own mind.

I’m rarely ever 100% sure about stuff anymore. The more I know and understand the more I realize how much I still don’t know. And in this case, I haven’t even given my opinion. So, I think it must be hard to tell me I’m wrong lol.

I didn’t suggest you were wrong, I just tried to offer an alternative interpretation of the numbers. Thank you for providing the link so people can make up their own minds.

[Logosone]

8 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

The point I was making is immunity certificates are fairly useless bits of paper, because someone with low immunity could be getting said certificate, then going out to reinfect others.

That rather depends.

 

If immunity is the norm, as the professor Cohen expects, then immunity certificates could be perfectly sensible.

 

By all accounts this virus does not mutate much so short term immunity looks unlikely.

 

Obviously no system is perfect, and the odd person could fall through the cracks, but it's better than just letting everyone travel at will. Someone who's had the immunity certificate was medically tested at some point.

 

 

[Lacessit]

19 minutes ago, Logosone said:

That's actually perfectly possible with immunity, some people can be immune for a while, then cease being immune, they can be immune for a little while.

 

I strongly suspect people in Sweden are more immune than those in Norway or Denmark.

 

Sweden is the Superman of nations the UK so much wanted to be.

Really. Sweden's suicide rate is 14.8, the UK's is 8.9. 66% higher. Superman has feet of clay, and I suspect it will get worse because governments are hushing up a spike in suicides during the COVID-19 pandemic.

[Logosone]

11 minutes ago, Skallywag said:

They also possess Viking blood  ????

Swedish Vikings

The Swedes, then known as Varangians, or Rus. They are very interesting because out of the three they were the ones who stayed true to their pagan ways for the longest.

I have to say Sweden's cold blooded non-chalance in the face of the virus, not overreacting with lockdown, hardly doing testing has been has been due to the testicular fortitude of Dr Tegnell, the man in charge. I'm quite impressed he's stood his ground.

 

As for the Vikings, they also helped create the Kievan Rus, and are related to the Russians. However, they weren't the smartest of cultures, took them a while to realise that raping and pillaging were not economically viable ways of life. In the end they capitulated to the cross anyway. But yes, quite interesting history.