Sweden - is the rest of the world dumb, blind or worse ?

[tlock]

I think we have another obvious population ripe for study that did follow the Swedish model.

 

Grocery store workers everywhere.

 

I think they will show what not locking down looks like on a healthy population.  I realize there have been documented infections and deaths, however I suspect that pretty much everyone who has continued working through the lockdowns has been exposed, and I expect they have reached herd immunity percentage-wise already.  Once the antibody testing really kicks in I hope people focus on that group in particular as the closest we have to a control group in this experiment.  

 

 

[simple1]

13 minutes ago, CanadaSam said:

For those of you who are trying to justify this world shutdown by stating things like "12% of those officially given a diagnosis......" or that "30% die when admitted to intensive care" can you PLEASE for a moment, THINK that this is NOT the percentage of the ENTIRE COUNTRY which is in total lockdown!!!

 

These people are already dead!  They are in intensive care, or given a diagnosis, because they are SICK, very, very sick.

 

BUT there happens to be 99 point something of people (less than 1 in one hundred get seriously sick) that are perfectly well, either having already had the virus, or not!

 

But, for that LESS THAN ONE PERCENT of people who are sick or dying, ONE HUNDRED PERCENT of the people are suffering, not to mention the economy!

I am not trying to "justify a world shutdown" just passing on some data from Sweden. BTW a 'world shutdown' has not occurred, nor are 100% of the world population suffering - less hyperbole would be a good idea, would it not?

[thaibeachlovers]

2 hours ago, yuyiinthesky said:

Well spotted, of course an export depending country such as Sweden will suffer if the world is on lockdown. Not Sweden's fault, but the Lockdown's fault.
 

 

A strong argument for Sweden's model, as it is showing that all the lockdowns did not help to get the current death rate under Swedens.

And it is ignoring that the overall death rate depends on the number of infections, which will eventually be the same everywhere (remember, flattening the curve is just distributing the infections over a longer time frame).

Nevertheless, if you prefer to be locked down nothing stops you from staying at home.

Nevertheless, if you prefer to be locked down nothing stops you from staying at home.

 

Oh, that won't do at all. If they are going to hide in their room they are demanding that everyone else must also hide. What's that saying- misery enjoys company.

[CharlieH]

Conspiracy theory removed.

[thaibeachlovers]

46 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

No, you relax restrictions as the situation gets under control. Happening in Australia as I post.

How can it be under control when most are not immune to it, BECAUSE they have been locked up?

[Shaunduhpostman]

Whatever you may think or not think of Sweden at least it seems to have grasped something that any caring, compassionate pandemic planners would take into account and that is that poverty kills and it kills at a much higher rate than COVID. I cannot remember the source, but you can definitely find it out there, I have heard it quoted several times in some more   informed, in-depth discussions on COVID that according to a 1984 US governmental agency study 80,000 people die in the US for every one point increase in the unemployment rate. Seeing as US unemployment is being projected to reach 30% during the COVID crisis, that is an increase from 3% so COVID solutions that completely ignore the effect of shutting down economies can look at death rates jumping around 10 times from what it would be normally. So using that yardstick, for the US, if unemployment reaches 33% you are looking at COVID lockdown= 2.4 million deaths. Sweden wins, it's not that hard either to grasp and it makes one wonder what the hell is actually going on that we have had economies shut down because of a corona virus, something that will have a trivial effect on the lives of any healthy person that it infects, you'll get a bad cold at worst.

 

 

[simple1]

3 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

How can it be under control when most are not immune to it, BECAUSE they have been locked up?

Worked out reasonably well in your home country, NZ. 

[simple1]

3 minutes ago, Shaunduhpostman said:

COVID that according to a 1984 US governmental agency study 80,000 people die in the US for every one point increase in the unemployment rate

One hopes you're not trying to compare the 1984 US welfare system to today's Sweden, or for that matter today's US welfare system.

[Heppinger]

11 minutes ago, Shaunduhpostman said:

Whatever you may think or not think of Sweden at least it seems to have grasped something that any caring, compassionate pandemic planners would take into account and that is that poverty kills and it kills at a much higher rate than COVID. I cannot remember the source, but you can definitely find it out there, I have heard it quoted several times in some more   informed, in-depth discussions on COVID that according to a 1984 US governmental agency study 80,000 people die in the US for every one point increase in the unemployment rate. Seeing as US unemployment is being projected to reach 30% during the COVID crisis, that is an increase from 3% so COVID solutions that completely ignore the effect of shutting down economies can look at death rates jumping around 10 times from what it would be normally. So using that yardstick, for the US, if unemployment reaches 33% you are looking at COVID lockdown= 2.4 million deaths. Sweden wins, it's not that hard either to grasp and it makes one wonder what the hell is actually going on that we have had economies shut down because of a corona virus, something that will have a trivial effect on the lives of any healthy person that it infects, you'll get a bad cold at worst.

Simple really, some countries are employing guidelines designed to inflate their recorded infections.  While other countries use totally different methods designed to hide their actual infection rate,  it's also possible that some countries aren't even testing at all. 

Edited May 16, 2020 by Heppinger

[Peter Denis]

3 minutes ago, simple1 said:

One hopes you're not trying to compare the 1984 US welfare system to today's Sweden, or for that matter today's US welfare system.

That was not the point he was making.  Not taking into account the side-effects of the covid-19 lockdown measures on the total population is a rather simplistic approach.

[nauseus]

1 hour ago, tribalfusion001 said:

Acceptable losses, same as every other country with high levels of covid-19 infections. Do you lock everything down forever?

Acceptable to you. Not acceptable to many others.

[thaibeachlovers]

23 minutes ago, simple1 said:

Worked out reasonably well in your home country, NZ. 

No idea what your point is.

It's not a factor at the moment because NZ is an island far away from everywhere else and the borders are closed with mandatory quarantine for any returning citizens. Probably few have immunity and if they open the borders it would likely start again.

For sure we can stay closed till and if a vaccine comes available, but how possible is that for years and years?

certainly hasn't worked at all well for the economy, though if immigrants are not allowed in there might actually be enough jobs for most and house prices might come down, both of which would be a good result.

 

Far as I understand Australia did as well as NZ regarding deaths and didn't go all out lockdown crazy.

Edited May 16, 2020 by thaibeachlovers

[Mavideol]

6 hours ago, Bender Rodriguez said:

That is why there are so many death people, mostly old and with deficient immune systems

by your comments one has to assume you are not (yet) on that group.... once (and IF) you get there wonder if you will still speak/writing the same way

[Susco]

2 hours ago, BritManToo said:

You do know Sweden only tests people already in the intensive care ward?

You mean Sweden goes the Thailand way?

 

We don't test anyone, so see we have no infections.

[thaibeachlovers]

Seems to me that there is a dramatic divide between TVF posters. On one side those that believe everything the government tells us, think lockdown is a great idea and accept if the economy is destroyed as long as a proportionately small number of people don't die, and that masks actually work- they think Sweden is wrong by not doing what every other western country is doing. On the other side are those of us that think the government is confused about what to do and is making it up as it goes along, think lockdown is a terrible economy killing idea and do not think masks work with a virus- we think Sweden has got it right.

[thaibeachlovers]

12 minutes ago, vermin on arrival said:

Just checking worldmeter and Sweden is currently around 600+ cases a day for the last few days although it has been bouncing up and down. Currently Japan is bouncing up and down around 100 cases a day. Or are your statistics from elsewhere?

IMO the more people that become infected the better. That way herd immunity is reached faster and things get back to some sort of normal. Those with underlying health problems that are more likely to die can be isolated more easily than locking EVERYONE down.

[Mikeasq60]

Politics is at play here and civil unrest is about to occur in the US keep watching the news! Because the police in America are treating citizens trying to feed there families and pay the bills as the enemy. This cant continue. Their freeing the jails in America of prisoners to make way for shut down violators we have a constitution in America that the corrupt politicians are disregarding.

[Susco]

3 hours ago, yuyiinthesky said:

5 hours ago, simple1 said:

Sweden's per capita death rate from Covid-19 is among the highest in the world,

A strong argument for Sweden's model, as it is showing that all the lockdowns did not help to get the current death rate under Swedens.

 

Which part of highest in the world is it that you didn't understand?

[thaibeachlovers]

15 minutes ago, Mavideol said:

by your comments one has to assume you are not (yet) on that group.... once (and IF) you get there wonder if you will still speak/writing the same way

I am in that group and speak that way.

[thaibeachlovers]

27 minutes ago, nauseus said:

Acceptable to you. Not acceptable to many others.

How many suicides because of poverty caused by the lockdown is acceptable to you?

[GroveHillWanderer]

3 hours ago, BritManToo said:

You do know Sweden only tests people already in the intensive care ward?

That may have been true at one point (I can't say for sure as I don't have a source to confirm or deny that) but it's certainly not true now.

 

According the Public Health Agency of Sweden they have been testing people out in the community since April.

 

Quote

The Public Health Agency is doing a survey in Stockholm to assess the level of COVID-19 in the community. In early April, approximately 4000 people were asked if they wanted to participate by providing samples. Participation is voluntary.

This survey is one way of gathering information about the number of people in the community infected with COVID-19. 

Even in hospitals, they don't only test people in intensive care. From the same PHAS source:

 

Quote

 

Who should be tested for COVID-19?

The healthcare services in Sweden prioritise the following groups:

Hospitalised patients

Health or elderly care personnel with suspected COVID-19

PHAS - CoVid-19 testing

[vermin on arrival]

9 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Seems to me that there is a dramatic divide between TVF posters. On one side those that believe everything the government tells us, think lockdown is a great idea and accept if the economy is destroyed as long as a proportionately small number of people don't die, and that masks actually work- they think Sweden is wrong by not doing what every other western country is doing. On the other side are those of us that think the government is confused about what to do and is making it up as it goes along, think lockdown is a terrible economy killing idea and do not think masks work with a virus- we think Sweden has got it right.

I dunno I think masks work, but requires 80-90% compliance indoors in public places and in close crowds outdoors. I think the lockdown could be a potentially effective short term remedy, 2months+ max, for societies that didn't have proper measures in place to give them breathing space to develop a coherent plan-although Oz and NZ did very well with it. However, others did not implement lockdowns and did a bang up job as well because they used masks and other measure very well. I do think many governments are confused and destroying the economy with their long term lockdowns, which could give both long epidemics and economic depression; surprisingly this is occurring in a number of the more advanced and developed societies. I think there are some benefits to what Sweden is doing, but it seems to be different to what other societies did that didn't use lockdowns and kept the virus in check, and I am not certain about it. I don't see a one size fits all solution.

[vinny41]

22 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Seems to me that there is a dramatic divide between TVF posters. On one side those that believe everything the government tells us, think lockdown is a great idea and accept if the economy is destroyed as long as a proportionately small number of people don't die, and that masks actually work- they think Sweden is wrong by not doing what every other western country is doing. On the other side are those of us that think the government is confused about what to do and is making it up as it goes along, think lockdown is a terrible economy killing idea and do not think masks work with a virus- we think Sweden has got it right.

I think you would find if both sides were asked to enter an ICU ward full of patients with Covid that both sides will be suited and booted and wearing full protection including masks

[bkk6060]

Sweden is known for Abba, meatballs, and IKEA.

At least now they have something current to be involved in a discussion. 

[scubascuba3]

3 hours ago, BritManToo said:

Yep ......... follows link .......... Death Rate 0.034%

Be afraid Sweden, be very afraid .....bet you wish you'd trashed your economy now!

(Spain, Italy, UK, France all higher and trashed economies)

I back Sweden's approach but their deaths per million is creeping up which is expected anyway.

 

Most other countries have sacrificed their economies. In UK they can't even get the kids to go back to school. Governments have caused so many problems now.

 

One thing I've noticed is the lockdowners can't get their brains around the catastrophe it's causing

Edited May 16, 2020 by scubascuba3

[simon43]

2 hours ago, BobBKK said:

Vietnam?  no deaths - why? because they very strictly quarantined the sick and let healthy people live their lives albeit with masks etc. No lockdown except if a case was found (only 300 nationally).

Laos too, where I live.  Only 19 cases (all imported AFAIK), zero deaths, but also strict lock-down for the past 4 - 5 weeks, masks required, temperature checks at the supermarket, all other shops except pharmacies and banks closed.  I know of no-one who has been ill/died from this Wuhan flu......

Edited May 16, 2020 by simon43

[BritManToo]

Just now, simon43 said:

I know of no-one who has been ill/died from this Wuhan flu......

Neither do any of us, anywhere in the world, on any of the forums we frequent.

Slightly odd IMHO.

[moe666]

4 hours ago, yuyiinthesky said:

And if you ask questions or criticize, then you're stamped off and silenced as conspiracy theorist. And Youtube and Twitter censor all opinions and facts which are not WHO/China approved. 

It started as "Lockdown to flatten the curve, so that the hospitals are not overwhelmed", and we all bought it. 

But meanwhile it changed on the quiet to "Lockdown forever, the new normal, at least till a vaccine is here". Sorry, that I do not buy anymore. Rejected.

So who do you pick to go back to work in a hazardous job and possible get covib, who do you pick to die. There are no good answers in this situation, but send every one out and there will be no one to take care of them. Chris Christy the world wind from New jersey would not answer who he wanted to die in his family. Talk is always cheap especially about death and dieing

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

11 minutes ago, simon43 said:

Laos too, where I live.  Only 19 cases (all imported AFAIK), zero deaths, but also strict lock-down for the past 4 - 5 weeks, masks required, temperature checks at the supermarket, all other shops except pharmacies and banks closed.  I know of no-one who has been ill/died from this Wuhan flu......

 

You mean they didn't have yahoos parading on the steps of the Laos government house toting their semi-automatic rifles complaining about how the lockdowns were an illegal infringement of their constitutional / human / religious rights to spread the virus freely as free creatures of God???

 

Edited May 16, 2020 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[vinny41]

2 hours ago, BobBKK said:

Vietnam?  no deaths - why? because they very strictly quarantined the sick and let healthy people live their lives albeit with masks etc. No lockdown except if a case was found (only 300 nationally).

And they quarantined and tested  everyone coming into the country  for 14 days. in a Goverment facility

Costs were mostly covered by the government, though accommodation was not necessarily luxurious. One woman who flew home from Australia - considering Vietnam a safer place to be - told BBC News Vietnamese that on their first night they had "only one mat, no pillows, no blankets" and one fan for the hot room.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-52628283

Not sure if that would go  down well with TVF members