Sabai Lodge being demolished

[Pilotman]

On 8/6/2020 at 6:15 PM, newnative said:

    It's encouraging that new hotels are still being constructed and some older ones are using this down time to repaint and remodel.  Work continues on a new highrise hotel on Naklua Road and the big Centre Point 2 project in Wongamat is also progressing--I noticed 2 big cranes on site the other day.  Several condos in Jomtien are also still being constructed--Copacabana, Riviera Ocean Drive, Riviera Monaco, and a new showroom on the old Ocean One site for something going in there.  

There is nothing so revealing as misplaced optimism.  It can only be several money laundering operations, there is no other logical explanation.  

[Susco]

3 minutes ago, Pilotman said:

There is nothing so revealing as misplaced optimism.  It can only be several money laundering operations, there is no other logical explanation.  

Money launderers don't invest hundreds of millions in a dead project, because then there is nothing to launder anymore

[Pilotman]

Just now, Susco said:

Money launderers don't invest hundreds of millions in a dead project, because then there is nothing to launder anymore

yes, they do. They borrow on the development, that is clean money,  Condos etc are lost leaders.  They may only end up with 50 cents on the dollar, but that is enough to profit from  millions. That is how Los Vegas developed. On laundered mafia money

[Leaver]

52 minutes ago, Susco said:

Money launderers don't invest hundreds of millions in a dead project, because then there is nothing to launder anymore

Unless they are actually laundering thousands of millions.  ????  

[geisha]

25000 unsold, but how many condos have been sold and standing empty for lack of renter/tourists/ re sale ? 

[newnative]

1 hour ago, Pilotman said:

There is nothing so revealing as misplaced optimism.  It can only be several money laundering operations, there is no other logical explanation.  

     I can't speak to how projects get financed--and that wasn't the point of my post anyway.  However they are financed, new projects have been built in Pattaya, and are still being built, because there is a market to support them.  I doubt Terminal 21 or the new Jomtien Hospital were built because money needed to be laundered.  

    I'm sitting on my balcony this evening and I'm seeing lots of lights on at Grande Centre Point, Dusit, Holiday Inn, Mytt, A-01, Mercure, and several smaller hotels.  Even with covid, they are doing a good weekend business.  Before covid, they were all doing very well 7 days a week--which is why several expanded to meet demand, not to launder money.  Amari built its new addition because it needed bigger suites to accommodate families.  

    I mentioned Grande Centre Point in my post.  They started with the big highrise hotel on top of Terminal 21.  It did well so they bought the Trust Condo in north Pattaya on Sukumvit and turned it into their second Pattaya hotel.  It did well so they announced another big project to be built in Wongamat.  About the time they were starting to clear the ground, covid hit.  They could have shelved the project but it seems to be going forward--workers are still on site and two big construction cranes have been added.  I think they're betting that when the construction is finished in a few years Pattaya will be welcoming tourists once again.  I optimistically hope so.

     

[Pilotman]

3 minutes ago, newnative said:

     I can't speak to how projects get financed--and that wasn't the point of my post anyway.  However they are financed, new projects have been built in Pattaya, and are still being built, because there is a market to support them.  I doubt Terminal 21 or the new Jomtien Hospital were built because money needed to be laundered.  

    I'm sitting on my balcony this evening and I'm seeing lots of lights on at Grande Centre Point, Dusit, Holiday Inn, Mytt, A-01, Mercure, and several smaller hotels.  Even with covid, they are doing a good weekend business.  Before covid, they were all doing very well 7 days a week--which is why several expanded to meet demand, not to launder money.  Amari built its new addition because it needed bigger suites to accommodate families.  

    I mentioned Grande Centre Point in my post.  They started with the big highrise hotel on top of Terminal 21.  It did well so they bought the Trust Condo in north Pattaya on Sukumvit and turned it into their second Pattaya hotel.  It did well so they announced another big project to be built in Wongamat.  About the time they were starting to clear the ground, covid hit.  They could have shelved the project but it seems to be going forward--workers are still on site and two big construction cranes have been added.  I think they're betting that when the construction is finished in a few years Pattaya will be welcoming tourists once again.  I optimistically hope so.

     

I'm not sure where you get your information on profitability and rate of return from.  Lights on in hotels is a meaningless measure, unless you know the occupancy rate and the financial return per room.  Full for max 3 nights per week doesn't cut it.  Building ever more condos in Pattaya makes no financial sense, when we know for a fact that many hundreds that are built already lie empty.  T21, by any subjective measure, is a massive failure. Lots of people in normal times, but very few buying anything. Popular restaurants and other food outlets can't possibly make T21 pay back on its investment. I have no idea where the money is coming from to build these white elephants, I suspect its Chinese investors, who are defacto, the public face of Chinese Government Sovereign  Wealth Funds, but who knows. What I do know, or at least heavily suspect, is that the financials just don't add up and never did, so something is certainly going on here that remains in the shadows, at least to the public if not to the Thai Government. 

[newnative]

1 hour ago, Pilotman said:

I'm not sure where you get your information on profitability and rate of return from.  Lights on in hotels is a meaningless measure, unless you know the occupancy rate and the financial return per room.  Full for max 3 nights per week doesn't cut it.  Building ever more condos in Pattaya makes no financial sense, when we know for a fact that many hundreds that are built already lie empty.  T21, by any subjective measure, is a massive failure. Lots of people in normal times, but very few buying anything. Popular restaurants and other food outlets can't possibly make T21 pay back on its investment. I have no idea where the money is coming from to build these white elephants, I suspect its Chinese investors, who are defacto, the public face of Chinese Government Sovereign  Wealth Funds, but who knows. What I do know, or at least heavily suspect, is that the financials just don't add up and never did, so something is certainly going on here that remains in the shadows, at least to the public if not to the Thai Government. 

     Shame on me but I really don't give a lot of deep thought to where the money comes from for these projects--or lose sleep fretting on their profits.  How many years now have posters been predicting the failure of Central Festival?  Yet, it soldiers on.  As a Pattaya year-round resident, I'm just glad they are here.  I appreciate the selection of stores, restaurants, housing stock in both home and condo projects, movie theaters, hospital choices, and so on.  Covid has turned things upside down but in normal times some businesses succeed and some fail, to be replaced by other businesses.  True the World over--including at one of the most popular malls in America that I used to shop at.  

     Nobody said the hotels are profitable right now--or anything else, for that matter.  It is encouraging, however, to look out and see lots of rooms with lights on at the hotels I can view from my balcony.  No, of course it's not an accurate measure of profitability but it is a nice contrast from during the week when I look out and see some but not that many lights on.  There's a big difference on the weekends and, hopefully, it's enough for the hotels that have opened to limp along with the current situation, keeping at least some workers employed during these difficult times.   Maybe now and then try to look at the glass as half full?

[Pilotman]

1 minute ago, newnative said:

     Shame on me but I really don't give a lot of deep thought to where the money comes from for these projects--or lose sleep fretting on their profits.  How many years now have posters been predicting the failure of Central Festival?  Yet, it soldiers on.  As a Pattaya year-round resident, I'm just glad they are here.  I appreciate the selection of stores, restaurants, housing stock in both home and condo projects, movie theaters, hospital choices, and so on.  Covid has turned things upside down but in normal times some businesses succeed and some fail, to be replaced by other businesses.  True the World over--including at one of the most popular malls in America that I used to shop at.  

     Nobody said the hotels are profitable right now--or anything else, for that matter.  It is encouraging, however, to look out and see lots of rooms with lights on at the hotels I can view from my balcony.  No, of course it's not an accurate measure of profitability but it is a nice contrast from during the week when I look out and see some but not that many lights on.  There's a big difference on the weekends and, hopefully, it's enough for the hotels that have opened to limp along with the current situation, keeping at least some workers employed during these difficult times.   Maybe now and then try to look at the glass as half full?

I understand that view.  I just wonder as a matter of curiosity, as like you, I don't mind benefiting from extra amenities. I don't fret about profitability for the owners, I am just interested from the viewpoint of a one time business person and as an intellectual exercise.  I do however see some quite sinister things going on, when the Chinese are clearly grabbing assets worldwide, with no interest in their financial return, but only in their ownership and the leverage it gives them in other countries.  I do think that may well be going on in Thailand and so in Pattaya. Then again, I too would rather see bright lights in a City than darkness. 

[jacko45k]

13 hours ago, Leaver said:

Unless they are actually laundering thousands of millions.  ????  

Perhaps people could watch the series Ozark to get an idea!

[ecoscape]

Use to like that hotel. Lovely gardens. Hope it is not replaced with even more hideous concrete

[elgenon]

Champers, when you find out the name please let me /us know.

Is Lido Beach hotel still there?

[Leaver]

7 hours ago, jacko45k said:

Perhaps people could watch the series Ozark to get an idea!

The last 20 seconds of this short and simple Youtube clip explains why some construction here could be dubious. 

 

 

 

[thaibeachlovers]

On 8/8/2020 at 4:11 PM, newnative said:

     

    The hotels I mentioned that are making improvements?  None would be considered a 'dump'.  They are all nice hotels already--they're just making themselves nicer.  I'm in north Pattaya--this part of town has truly transformed from the days when you were here.  North Pattaya and Wongamat/Naklua, with lots of nice, new development, are quite popular now with families and that is likely to continue and grow.  

    You're right--the old, small, shabby, honky-tonky Pattaya of flimsy tin roof shacks is no longer with us that much except in pockets here and there.  Pattaya is now a large, modern city.  You can lament what it once was--and join other old voices in places like Myrtle Beach and just about any Florida beach town that once was also small and honky tonky but no longer is.  "Well, you're too young, sunny, but I remember when ___________ (fill in the blank) was just a small, fun little beach town with only one traffic light but a dozen girlie bars!  Those were the days, I tell you!'

     You can blame a 'certain person' but all this development didn't happen because of one man.  The city has and is still doing major road work all over town.  The city has vastly improved Pattaya Beach and is improving Jomtien Beach next.  The development, however, has all been private industry.  Private industry, not a 'certain person', decides to risk money and build a new hotel, a new condo project, a new shopping mall.  A new hospital, a new golf course, a new water park.  With Pattaya's prime beach location not far from a major city and a major airport, it was bound to happen--just as it has happened in other places around the World.  You may wish for the old days but, as a full-time resident, I am happy with the Pattaya of today. 

   

   

I couldn't care less as to the state of the hotels etc, but it's a shame the cheap places all went overpriced. My regret of Pattaya is that it's just not sanuk any more. It sold it's soul and is a fun devoid zone now. Rather than by playing up the difference to places like <deleted> Hua Hin, it tried to become just another boring concrete dump with nothing to recommend staying there. IMO it has succeeded. The rot started with the destruction of the nice beach promenade and replacing it with a bland and boring brick horror.

 

Pattaya will never succeed as a better city as long as the roads are as bad as they were 30 years ago. Impossible to put 10 times more vehicles down roads that can't carry them. Without good roads it doesn't matter how many flash new hotels get built if people can't get to them.

The incompetence of the city authorities means that they can't even provide enough water for all the intended visitors. Be grateful there are less people there at the moment.

 

Don't think I don't know much about Pattaya. I visited/ lived there long time, and the incompetence of the authorities goes back decades. When they built 3rd road through fields they could easily have reserved a much wider area than the road they built, but the morons incompetents did not think about the future and it is far too narrow now. The story of Pattaya is of incompetence and stupidity. I don't think a single public project has been done properly, and every one has made the place worse, which is a sort of record. Even little Phayao has a better waterfront promenade than the horrid thing that has despoiled the Pattaya beachfront.

[thaibeachlovers]

On 8/9/2020 at 12:51 AM, Pilotman said:

T21, by any subjective measure, is a massive failure. Lots of people in normal times, but very few buying anything. Popular restaurants and other food outlets can't possibly make T21 pay back on its investment.

Interesting. In the long running thread before it opened I predicted it would take most of the custom from Central Festival. Did that not happen? Certainly Pattaya has far too many malls. The ones that suffer are the small shop renters in them, though they should think several times before opening a shop in them.

[thaibeachlovers]

On 8/9/2020 at 12:36 AM, newnative said:

However they are financed, new projects have been built in Pattaya, and are still being built, because there is a market to support them. 

LOL. Pattaya had too many malls even before T21 was built. Anyone could see that by actually visiting them at various times during the day.

Strangely all built in Pattaya and none on Sukhumvit or Jomptien.

[thaibeachlovers]

On 8/8/2020 at 10:26 PM, Pilotman said:

There is nothing so revealing as misplaced optimism.  It can only be several money laundering operations, there is no other logical explanation.  

How else can all those small shops survive when they have so few customers and presumably high rents?

[Chivas]

Ignore that....above

 

 

[Pilotman]

36 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

How else can all those small shops survive when they have so few customers and presumably high rents?

They can't 

[jacko45k]

1 hour ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Interesting. In the long running thread before it opened I predicted it would take most of the custom from Central Festival. Did that not happen? Certainly Pattaya has far too many malls. The ones that suffer are the small shop renters in them, though they should think several times before opening a shop in them.

You should try The Harbor Mall, like a ghost-town.

[champers]

1 hour ago, jacko45k said:

You should try The Harbor Mall, like a ghost-town.

Royal Garden Plaza the same, pre-Covid too I should add. A good spot, they need a USP and I don't think Ripleys does it for them.

[newnative]

3 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Interesting. In the long running thread before it opened I predicted it would take most of the custom from Central Festival. Did that not happen? Certainly Pattaya has far too many malls. The ones that suffer are the small shop renters in them, though they should think several times before opening a shop in them.

    In normal times they were both doing well.  T21 was a godsend as Festival had gotten so busy on weekends that we had stopped going unless absolutely necessary.  I remember one time it took us around 40 minutes to get out of the parking garage--and, no, it was not at closing time with everyone leaving at once.  It had just gotten too busy to be pleasant to go to except during the week.  Luckily, T21 opened and they nicely split the business.  Both busy, especially on weekends, but a nice busyness. 

    Had lunch today at Fuji at Festival.  Thank goodness for the farang retirees.  The restaurant was maybe two-thirds full and it was mostly farang retirees, with some tables of Thai families and couples.  Farangs having lunch with other farangs and farangs having lunch with their Thai companions.  Same with the mall in general--without us it would have been noticeably quieter. 

[newnative]

4 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

LOL. Pattaya had too many malls even before T21 was built. Anyone could see that by actually visiting them at various times during the day.

Strangely all built in Pattaya and none on Sukhumvit or Jomptien.

   Not strange at all.  if you're smart you build where the maximum customers are, with easy access by various transportation choices--foot, private vehicle, or public transportation.   Festival and T21 were both doing well pre-covid.  If you're not that smart, you build in a bad location like Harbor's, with only one inconvenient way in and out, no regular public transportation, and suffer the consequences.  Of course, you can have a good location and still not do very well through bad design and/or poor management--several examples of that come to mind.  

[Pattaya Spotter]

16 hours ago, newnative said:

   Not strange at all.  if you're smart you build where the maximum customers are, with easy access by various transportation choices--foot, private vehicle, or public transportation.   Festival and T21 were both doing well pre-covid.  If you're not that smart, you build in a bad location like Harbor's, with only one inconvenient way in and out, no regular public transportation, and suffer the consequences.  Of course, you can have a good location and still not do very well through bad design and/or poor management--several examples of that come to mind.  

There is a baht bus line that runs up and down Central Road in front of Harbor Mall. I do agree, however, that the conception and operation of Harbor has been suboptimal from the start. 

[redwood1]

On 8/7/2020 at 6:19 PM, poloshirt said:

Yes, very likely because who else have the money to invest at this point in time?

Pattaya-Thailand had a booming business selling condos to farang retirees....But between the high baht value and the unstable ever changing ever tightening ever more piles of visa horse-poop condo sales were in steep steep decline well before Covid...

[newnative]

56 minutes ago, Pattaya Spotter said:

There is a baht bus line that runs up and down Central Road in front of Harbor Mall. I do agree, however, that the conception and operation of Harbor has been suboptimal from the start. 

My bad--I forgot about the baht bus. 

[newnative]

32 minutes ago, redwood1 said:

Pattaya-Thailand had a booming business selling condos to farang retirees....But between the high baht value and the unstable ever changing ever tightening ever more piles of visa horse-poop condo sales were in steep steep decline well before Covid...

   They might have been in 'steep steep decline' with farang retirees (even that is debatable) but they certainly were not in steep decline with other buyers.  I easily sold 5 condos in the last few years to Chinese buyers pre-covid (and 1 farang retiree) who found Pattaya condo prices very reasonable in comparison to condo prices in their home countries (and visa rules not too odious).   

[Chivas]

Can we stick on topic guys please lol. Apart from OP we've wandered all over the city

Its Sabai Lodge over being demolished and redeveloped. I spoke to one of the receptionists yesterday via PM who whilst devastated believes its being partially redeveloped using the existing car park.

Time will obviously tell on that part

[Pattaya Spotter]

34 minutes ago, Chivas said:

Can we stick on topic guys please lol. Apart from OP we've wandered all over the city

Its Sabai Lodge over being demolished and redeveloped. I spoke to one of the receptionists yesterday via PM who whilst devastated believes its being partially redeveloped using the existing car park.

Time will obviously tell on that part

There are so many Sabais in North Pattaya...is this the one a couple hundred meters down Second Road on the right (if walking to the beach)? That one was always my fav Sabai hotel...had a great pool scene and good restaurant?

 

[Chivas]

11 minutes ago, Pattaya Spotter said:

There are so many Sabais in North Pattaya...is this the one a couple hundred meters down Second Road on the right (if walking to the beach)?

 

Yes walk down Soi 2 from 2nd rd end and Sabai Lodge is or was about 200 metres on your right