Brexit brinkmanship: Johnson says prepare for no-deal, cancels trade talks

[Hi from France]

48 minutes ago, nauseus said:

The above quotes were made by people who wrongly assumed that there would be a large splash of goodwill in the mix. Two 'cans' and a 'should' plus Davis is yet to be proved wrong.

Ok would you say that you now pragmatically draw the conclusion that 3 of these politicians (who are now in charge), lied? 

 

 

Now about "goodwill"

• we could talk at length about who is stalling and on what "The Great Seal of the Realm" on an international treaty means
• .. but anyway as you A state, is called the coldest of all cold monsters. Coldly lieth it also; and this lie creepeth from its mouth

 

we can always talk about expectations of goodwill but between world powers there is no godwill, I'm sorry to be rude, but if a world power can beat another, sooner or later it will.

 

 

 

At our personal little scale here, we can blame the politicians we choose to put in power for lying to us (or for being a Cynical Genius in the case of Boris Johnson), but you cannot blame world powers for "screwing" one another when they can; Actually that how the world works. 

 

Edited October 19, 2020 by Hi from France

[Tord55]

On 10/17/2020 at 1:43 AM, edwinchester said:

There will be no downside to Brexit, only considerable upside.

David Davis

 

The day after we vote to leave we hold all the cards and can choose the path we want.

Michael Gove

 

Getting out of the EU can be quick and easy, the UK holds most of the cards.

John Redwood

 

The FTA that we do with the EU should be one of the easiest in human history.

Liam Fox

 

I think we could very easily get a better trade deal than we have at the moment.

Douglas Carswell

 

Trade relations can be sorted out in an afternoon over a cup of tea.

Gerald Batten

 

I loved these bright guys with their smooth talking, the best tall stories I've heard in a long time!

 

[nauseus]

47 minutes ago, RayC said:

That new - soon to be old - chestnut about 'goodwill'.

 

It still doesn't explain how - given that the UK "holds all the cards" - we have managed to find ourselves in this pickle.

We have been in this 'pickle' for 47 years.

[Hi from France]

I understand this forum has a lot of british pensioners, the most brexit-prone demographic. So a lot of hardened brexiters not objectively ready to acknowledge Brexit was indeed a terrible choice.

 

Now, if you poll the British people, there is growing consensus that leaving the EU was the wrong move for the country.

 

Edited October 19, 2020 by Hi from France

[nauseus]

33 minutes ago, Hi from France said:

Ok would you say that you now pragmatically draw the conclusion that 3 of these politicians (who are now in charge), lied? 

 

 

Now about "goodwill"

• we could talk at length about who is stalling and on what "The Great Seal of the Realm" on an international treaty means
• .. but anyway as you A state, is called the coldest of all cold monsters. Coldly lieth it also; and this lie creepeth from its mouth

 

we can always talk about expectations of goodwill but between world powers there is no godwill, I'm sorry to be rude, but if a world power can beat another, sooner or later it will.

 

 

 

At our personal little scale here, we can blame the politicians we choose to put in power for lying to us (or for being a Cynical Genius in the case of Boris Johnson), but you cannot blame world powers for "screwing" one another when they can; Actually that how the world works. 

 

Pragmatically, no, not really; if you want to refer to scale then there are far more direct examples of lies.

 

You can scale yourself down as much as you like but don't factor me into your calculations.

[RayC]

19 minutes ago, nauseus said:

We have been in this 'pickle' for 47 years.

... And done rather well out of it (although clearly that is a matter of opinion)????

[polpott]

17 minutes ago, Hi from France said:

I understand this forum has a lot of british pensioners, the most brexit-prone demographic. So a lot of hardened brexiters not objectively ready to acknowledge Brexit was indeed a terrible choice.

 

Now, if you poll the British people, there is growing consensus that leaving the EU was the wrong move for the country.

 

I have been getting this feedback on the ground for some time. Always get silly smiley faces from Brexiteers when I report it.

[nauseus]

30 minutes ago, Hi from France said:

I understand this forum has a lot of british pensioners, the most brexit-prone demographic. So a lot of hardened brexiters not objectively ready to acknowledge Brexit was indeed a terrible choice.

 

Now, if you poll the British people, there is growing consensus that leaving the EU was the wrong move for the country.

 

Can't find this - can you link it properly?

[vogie]

31 minutes ago, Hi from France said:

I understand this forum has a lot of british pensioners, the most brexit-prone demographic. So a lot of hardened brexiters not objectively ready to acknowledge Brexit was indeed a terrible choice.

 

Now, if you poll the British people, there is growing consensus that leaving the EU was the wrong move for the country.

 

Polls can be manipulated, the referendum wasn't.

[nauseus]

12 minutes ago, polpott said:

I have been getting this feedback on the ground for some time. Always get silly smiley faces from Brexiteers when I report it.

Do you have links too? 

[vinny41]

23 minutes ago, Hi from France said:

I understand this forum has a lot of british pensioners, the most brexit-prone demographic. So a lot of hardened brexiters not objectively ready to acknowledge Brexit was indeed a terrible choice.

 

Now, if you poll the British people, there is growing consensus that leaving the EU was the wrong move for the country.

 

Yet 38% of the French population think that the UK will benefit in the longterm from leaving the EU  and when ask whether EU membership has been good or bad for their country 35% of the French population replied that EU membership had a negative effect on their country.

if there was a referendum in France on EU membership only 52% would vote to remain 27% would vote to leave and 21% are undecided

When asked Do you trust that the EU has your country's best interests at heart? 46% of the French population voted NO and only 26% voted Yes with 28% undecided

[nauseus]

18 minutes ago, RayC said:

... And done rather well out of it (although clearly that is a matter of opinion)????

A matter of opinion, of course. 

[7by7]

18 hours ago, Loiner said:

EU threat to impose tariffs between mainland and Northern Island, or even blockade foodstuffs?

Boris the liar made that accusation.

 

But like so many of his pronouncements; its not exactly true.

 

Under the Northern Ireland protocol in the withdrawal agreement agreed and ratified last year, Northern Ireland will in effect stay in the single market and follow EU standards in goods at the end of the transition period, while the rest of the UK exits and does its own thing on standards.

 

Under the agreement, the EU’s customs code would also be enforced on goods entering Northern Ireland from Great Britain, although Northern Ireland would stay in the UK’s customs territory. This “in-out” arrangement was agreed in order to prevent a customs border being implemented on the island of Ireland.

 

In the event of a wider trade deal not being agreed by the EU and the UK this year, that could mean tariffs being applied to goods entering Northern Ireland from Great Britain if they are deemed “at risk” of entering the Republic of Ireland at a later point.

 

Tariffs would be repayable to importers where it could be proven that the goods had not gone over the border into the Republic. But tariffs and checks would be done in the first instance, creating barriers to trade between Northern Ireland and Great Britain.

 

This outcome was the reason Theresa May, as prime minister, had been adamantly against any such customs border between the four nations of the UK.

(Source)

 

Boris the liar didn't care about any of that when he triumphantly unveiled his WA last year. Now his chickens are coming home to roost, he is, unsurprisingly, trying to blame the EU for his cock up!

[Hi from France]

14 minutes ago, nauseus said:

Can't find this - can you link it properly?

just type "poll brexit regrets" on Google https://bit.ly/2Hf3mi7

 

you can choose the "news" section or also search images/graphs with "Bregret'" or whatever

 

 

Edited October 19, 2020 by Hi from France

[7by7]

7 hours ago, Tofer said:

21 hours ago, 7by7 said:

Johnson has proven he signed the WA in bad faith, for sure.

 

In what way have the EU done so?

See post 434!

 Why? It contains no facts, let alone an answer to the question!

[polpott]

13 minutes ago, nauseus said:

Do you have links too? 

https://www.businessinsider.com/yougov-poll-brexit-regret-remain-second-referendum-2019-2?r=US&IR=T

 

[evadgib]

From HMG this afternoon:

 

Time is running out for businesses to prepare

 

Letters to businesses about new trade arrangements with the EU from 1 January 2021

[Susco]

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/uk-pound-dollar-euro-rate-brexit-bill-104411954.html

 

Pound up as UK officials hint at rewrite of lawbreaking Brexit bill

Points of contention still lie around fair competition rules, dispute resolution and fisheries, with reports from Bloomberg that MPs have hinted they are willing to water down Johnson’s controversial Internal Markets bill.

 

<snip>

"If we don't get a deal EUR/GBP heads off somewhere between 0.95 and perhaps briefly the wrong side of parity as rates go sub-zero, But for now, the soap opera continues."

 

[7by7]

23 minutes ago, vogie said:

Polls can be manipulated, the referendum wasn't.

Strange comment on a YouGov poll from the person who until their results started to go against him regularly posted YouGov polls as if they were Holy Writ.

 

Since the referendum more and more people have seen how Vote.Leave and others campaigning for leave based their campaigns by assuring us that the EU needed us more than we needed them. As the last four years have shown, that is simply not true.

 

The only thing I find difficult to believe is that there are still people who believe that lie!

 

Maybe they don't; maybe they are just to proud or ashamed to admit, even to themselves, how wrong they were.

 

But what's done is done; we are unfortunately out of the EU and one can only hope that eventually this country will recover from that mistake.

[Loiner]

17 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

Boris the liar made that accusation.

 

But like so many of his pronouncements; its not exactly true.

 

Under the Northern Ireland protocol in the withdrawal agreement agreed and ratified last year, Northern Ireland will in effect stay in the single market and follow EU standards in goods at the end of the transition period, while the rest of the UK exits and does its own thing on standards.

 

Under the agreement, the EU’s customs code would also be enforced on goods entering Northern Ireland from Great Britain, although Northern Ireland would stay in the UK’s customs territory. This “in-out” arrangement was agreed in order to prevent a customs border being implemented on the island of Ireland.

 

In the event of a wider trade deal not being agreed by the EU and the UK this year, that could mean tariffs being applied to goods entering Northern Ireland from Great Britain if they are deemed “at risk” of entering the Republic of Ireland at a later point.

 

Tariffs would be repayable to importers where it could be proven that the goods had not gone over the border into the Republic. But tariffs and checks would be done in the first instance, creating barriers to trade between Northern Ireland and Great Britain.

 

This outcome was the reason Theresa May, as prime minister, had been adamantly against any such customs border between the four nations of the UK.

(Source)

 

Boris the liar didn't care about any of that when he triumphantly unveiled his WA last year. Now his chickens are coming home to roost, he is, unsurprisingly, trying to blame the EU for his cock up!

 

The EU made a threat that UK may not be on the Third Country List for imports into Northern Island. That's the EU not negotiating in good faith. 

Boris has introduced the Internal Markets Bill to override that part of the WA if the EU don't keep to it. Good show Boris, now as we get closer to No Deal, ditch the whole WA.

[nauseus]

48 minutes ago, Hi from France said:

just type "poll brexit regrets" on Google https://bit.ly/2Hf3mi7

 

you can choose the "news" section or also search images/graphs with "Bregret'" or whatever

 

 

Oh dear, from The New European with no source reference. When I go to YouGov I can't find this. Wonder why?

[izod10]

On 10/18/2020 at 4:02 AM, AndrewMciver said:

 

Which means a fall in the Pound will be even worst.

 

Do you ackowledge that the vote caused a 20% fall in the value of the pound? If you are denial by this FACT then there is no hope to even have a conversation.

 

Then all major forecasters are saying the Pound will collapse another 20% (minimum) - even a forced collapase to keep exports competative. 

 

And you are okay with this ? 

Major forecasters    lol    The pound will rise 50%  (minimum)   are you OK with this?

[david555]

1 hour ago, nauseus said:

Can't find this - can you link it properly?

on your request I arranged it ???? 

 

https://www.businessinsider.fr/us/brexit-poll-minority-believe-was-right-to-leave-the-eu-2020-9

 

Edited October 19, 2020 by david555

[Hi from France]

12 minutes ago, Loiner said:

Boris has introduced the Internal Markets Bill to override that part of the WA if the EU don't keep to it. Good show Boris, now as we get closer to No Deal, ditch the whole WA.

Johnson is a compulsive liar. That's why he was sacked as a journalist and he is so successful as a politician.

 

....the problem is not Boris Johnson being a liar, the problem is the value of the signature of the UK on a international treaty, ratified by the parliament and Her Majesty the Queen.

 

Betraying a treaty puts the United Kingdom in the "rogue states" category.

 

 

 

"My word is my bond" has for centuries been the motto of the London Stock Exchange, and as a trading nation, keeping you promises, is what used to be the very power your country.

 

 

 

In a few weeks, the UK will leave 29 FTAs covering 40 countries and territories. And the country will have to negotiate and sign treaties with partners that now know for a fact that the "Great Seal of the United Kingdom" is a joke.

[7by7]

15 minutes ago, Loiner said:

The EU made a threat that UK may not be on the Third Country List for imports into Northern Island. That's the EU not negotiating in good faith. 

No; it didn't.

 

The EU treated us the same as all third country list applicants by asking us for assurances about our food standards. 

 

From 23/9/20: UK satisfied EU won’t block food exports after Brexit..

 

24 minutes ago, Loiner said:

Boris has introduced the Internal Markets Bill to override that part of the WA if the EU don't keep to it. Good show Boris, now as we get closer to No Deal, ditch the whole WA

The EU, signs an international treaty and, despite extreme provocation, has shown no sign that it ever intends to break it.

 

Meanwhile Boris proclaims that agreement as an oven ready deal which will get Brexit done, wins an election on that promise, signs it with much self aggrandising fanfare and gets it enshrined in UK statute law via an Act of Parliament.

 

All the while with his fingers crossed behind his back!

 

Perfidious Albion, indeed.

[7by7]

3 minutes ago, nauseus said:

Oh dear, from The New European with no source reference. When I go to YouGov I can't find this. Wonder why?

 

 For the results that graph was drawn from, as well as all results up to 8/10/20, see this YouGov page. Results for In hindsight, do you think Britain was right or wrong to vote to leave the European Union?" start at the bottom of page 1.

 

You couldn't have looked very hard; all I did was put "YouGov poll: was UK right or wrong to leave the EU" into Google; took me to YouGov's Brexit page upon which was a link to the poll results!

[nauseus]

9 minutes ago, david555 said:

https://www.businessinsider.fr/us/brexit-poll-minority-believe-was-right-to-leave-the-eu-2020-9

 

Thanks - not a direct link but finally found it. An ongoing poll but no data as to the locations of samples.

[nauseus]

8 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

 

 For the results that graph was drawn from, as well as all results up to 8/10/20, see this YouGov page. Results for In hindsight, do you think Britain was right or wrong to vote to leave the European Union?" start at the bottom of page 1.

 

You couldn't have looked very hard; all I did was put "YouGov poll: was UK right or wrong to leave the EU" into Google; took me to YouGov's Brexit page upon which was a link to the poll results!

God. You're good.

Edited October 19, 2020 by nauseus

[Loiner]

18 minutes ago, Hi from France said:

Johnson is a compulsive liar. That's why he was sacked as a journalist and he is so successful as a politician.

 

....the problem is not Boris Johnson being a liar, the problem is the value of the signature of the UK on a international treaty, ratified by the parliament and Her Majesty the Queen.

 

Betraying a treaty puts the United Kingdom in the "rogue states" category.

 

"My word is my bond" has for centuries been the motto of the London Stock Exchange, and as a trading nation, keeping you promises, is what used to be the very power your country.

 

In a few weeks, the UK will leave 29 FTAs covering 40 countries and territories. And the country will have to negotiate and sign treaties with partners that now know for a fact that the "Great Seal of the United Kingdom" is a joke.

 

Yes, we are all grateful for Boris becoming that successful politician who is now Getting Brexit done. We wouldn't be almost there without him, and not stuck in the cheating EU's tentacles. 

 

We have no problem with any of his actions regarding the Internal Markets Bill ,or in fact anything when dealing with the EU shysters. Being put in Macron's book of rogue states is not a problem either. The world knows what was going on and does not care. In fact anyone who can stick it to the EU is a jolly good fellow from most countries point of view. A promise made with a snake is only as good as the snake keeps his promise too.

 

Don't fret too much that the other countries and territories are lining up to sin treaties with us. They will be better trading partners than the ones who used and abused us for over 40 years. (The French especially, over hundreds of years.) 

[3NUMBAS]

https://www.ft.com/content/61596993-d6ce-40a1-ba39-a8a735a36e45

 

EU economy: fear of no-deal Brexit stalks the fields of Flanders

Tariffs and quotas would hit Belgium’s Dutch-speaking north, one of the regions most closely integrated with the UK

Edited October 19, 2020 by 3NUMBAS