Water Heater AGAIN! Any Ideas?

[Formaleins]

3 hours ago, Crossy said:

 

Would you mind sharing details of your heaters?

 

Many of us like loads of hot water and are on weak electrical supplies (is there any other kind here?).

 

Gas is a good way forwards if this is you.

You can buy them on Lazada, but they don't look that safe from what I have seen. Flu's and venting being the least of my concerns, but I stand to be corrected.

 

https://www.lazada.co.th/products/jk-i955018341-s2012788785.html?spm=a2o4m.searchlist.list.2.99ca48a4h6klQD&search=1

 

https://www.lazada.co.th/products/haite-i960782028-s2040476923.html?spm=a2o4m.searchlist.list.4.99ca48a4h6klQD&search=1

Edited October 19, 2020 by Formaleins

[Formaleins]

7 hours ago, millymoopoo said:

Another solution may be solar hot water, almost nil to run (nil if you don't use electric booster) but expensive to buy.

You are 100% correct with that one, it is pretty shameful that I have never gone into that, living here with all the free sunshine. I think I will at least have a look at making some sort of water tank that could utilise some sort of convection heater, like the old immersion tanks with the water heated by an internal coil that uses the sunlight. I guess I have just been too lazy!

 

Thanks for your suggestion, appreciated.

[Formaleins]

12 hours ago, bodga said:

I had to rewire  my entire  house after the electrician had done  it  in all the wrong  colours about 8 years  ago

EGAT did that for me three times over the past few years for free. They kept changing the Live / Neutral polarity - I had one socket that I kept marked up with a big "L" and a big "N" that I used to test periodically to make sure I never got fried again when switching off one of my ring circuits at the breaker only to find it was still live but the power was now on what used to be the neutral, nice surprise I can tell you.

[keithkarmann]

16 minutes ago, Formaleins said:

You can buy them on Lazada, but they don't look that safe from what I have seen. Flu's and venting being the least of my concerns, but I stand to be corrected.

 

https://www.lazada.co.th/products/jk-i955018341-s2012788785.html?spm=a2o4m.searchlist.list.2.99ca48a4h6klQD&search=1

 

https://www.lazada.co.th/products/haite-i960782028-s2040476923.html?spm=a2o4m.searchlist.list.4.99ca48a4h6klQD&search=1

Have seen them on Lazada for about 1000 baht. They all look the same inside but the cheaper ones do not have the temperature digital read out. I am sure they would not pass UK safety tests but as long as they are used in a well ventilated area and have a flue if necessary. They run cold when the igniter batteries get weak. A friend imported one from Australia, yes expensive but has mains electric for the igniter and is probably more safer.

Using gas heaters saves having to install large electric cables and no chance of electric shock due to poor installation of electric heaters by unqualified people.

[Formaleins]

1 minute ago, keithkarmann said:

Have seen them on Lazada for about 1000 baht. They all look the same inside but the cheaper ones do not have the temperature digital read out. I am sure they would not pass UK safety tests but as long as they are used in a well ventilated area and have a flue if necessary. They run cold when the igniter batteries get weak. A friend imported one from Australia, yes expensive but has mains electric for the igniter and is probably more safer.

Using gas heaters saves having to install large electric cables and no chance of electric shock due to poor installation of electric heaters by unqualified people.

Worth a try, doubt that they are anywhere less safe than a badly installed electric heater, at least with the gas you can put the fire out with the available water.

[xtrnuno41]

On the 10 kW DH-10AM1 (nr 1)
You see in scematic 2 extra wires to PCB, you said PCB probably for light indication.
Looks like the elements are checked for power over it.
Maybe changed later in DH-88 (nr 2)which could do with out the 2 wires.

 

In nr 1 the biggest heating element is controlled by a flowswitch, what should be logical.
You use more water and therefor need more heating.
In nr 2 they changed that to the middle power element.
It looks like 5.5-6 kW is used in beginning situation, middle position rotary switch.
When you change to high position, an element is activated only when enough waterflow
is used.

However you say they changed inside the boiler from 8 to 10 kW and also
the wiring. Then it is the question, what did they do? you should indeed check every
wire to see if it is correct fitted.
Also see if the wire diameter is right for the power used. 
You might reacall P=UI. At least you should have 2.5 mm2 connection wire 
for each element. It would be wise to use silicon wiring as they
are better against heat. Those wires are very flexible and commonly used 
for those situations today.

 

You already said it, no heating safety, as they didnt fit the heat cut off well.
Also they draw 3 of them, are there 3 of them or just one with multiple contacts
or schematic isnt quite right and just one in mainpower?
That would be more logical. However it isnt working right, due to fitting.
With that in mind, as you said also one, there is just one and probably in mainpower kill.  
So schematic is questionable. 

 

Also the switches mentioned on the left side. 
What are they, are they combined in the rotory switch? Schematic doesnt tell.
Again it would be logical, however why not then a contact for the flow controlled element?

 

You do have ground on the system? Besides that you have RCBO? 
I see something drawn on the schematic which could contain a RCBO?!
It is in the heater?

For your safety, i would check all, take it off and check what they did.

For the heat shut off, maybe find a heat resistant insulated tyrap?
Wouldnt know if Thailand has and where and mostly they are sold with more.

Or have a silicon tube( they must have) in which you put a wire to easy tighten.
Ask for the max temp it can have, they are for higher temps.
Or have the glasswool tubes, you can find them in lamps and other devices with heat.
Mechanically some stronger, heat resistant and insulating.
Otherwise you have to weld a threadbus (or have it done) to use for the second screw.  

But sometimes Thailand amazes me with what you can find. 

Anybdy feel free to correct me if im wrong about the heater scematic.

[Formaleins]

20 minutes ago, xtrnuno41 said:

On the 10 kW DH-10AM1 (nr 1)
You see in scematic 2 extra wires to PCB, you said PCB probably for light indication.
Looks like the elements are checked for power over it.
Maybe changed later in DH-88 (nr 2)which could do with out the 2 wires.

 

In nr 1 the biggest heating element is controlled by a flowswitch, what should be logical.
You use more water and therefor need more heating.
In nr 2 they changed that to the middle power element.
It looks like 5.5-6 kW is used in beginning situation, middle position rotary switch.
When you change to high position, an element is activated only when enough waterflow
is used.

However you say they changed inside the boiler from 8 to 10 kW and also
the wiring. Then it is the question, what did they do? you should indeed check every
wire to see if it is correct fitted.
Also see if the wire diameter is right for the power used. 
You might reacall P=UI. At least you should have 2.5 mm2 connection wire 
for each element. It would be wise to use silicon wiring as they
are better against heat. Those wires are very flexible and commonly used 
for those situations today.

 

You already said it, no heating safety, as they didnt fit the heat cut off well.
Also they draw 3 of them, are there 3 of them or just one with multiple contacts
or schematic isnt quite right and just one in mainpower?
That would be more logical. However it isnt working right, due to fitting.
With that in mind, as you said also one, there is just one and probably in mainpower kill.  
So schematic is questionable. 

 

Also the switches mentioned on the left side. 
What are they, are they combined in the rotory switch? Schematic doesnt tell.
Again it would be logical, however why not then a contact for the flow controlled element?

 

You do have ground on the system? Besides that you have RCBO? 
I see something drawn on the schematic which could contain a RCBO?!
It is in the heater?

For your safety, i would check all, take it off and check what they did.

For the heat shut off, maybe find a heat resistant insulated tyrap?
Wouldnt know if Thailand has and where and mostly they are sold with more.

Or have a silicon tube( they must have) in which you put a wire to easy tighten.
Ask for the max temp it can have, they are for higher temps.
Or have the glasswool tubes, you can find them in lamps and other devices with heat.
Mechanically some stronger, heat resistant and insulating.
Otherwise you have to weld a threadbus (or have it done) to use for the second screw.  

But sometimes Thailand amazes me with what you can find. 

Anybdy feel free to correct me if im wrong about the heater scematic.

Thanks for your suggestions. I think it is working safely now, I have temporarily fixed the thermostat with a cable tie and a screw, will keep an eye on it. Yes, the schematics are poor, no colour coding at all. Makes sense regarding the 6 wire to 4 wire PCB, the 8KW is useless and lights up both LEDS even when the switch is off (seems dependant solely on the flow switch)  the 10KW unit is much better. it alternates the LED's to let you know what is running, i.e top LED alone is Low, bottom LED alone is MED and both LED's is HI. Flow control actually kills power to everything, regardless of power setting. The second switch is part of the rotary,  it is a block of 3 separate switches with dual connections on the live side, there are no other switches inside. The heater is grounded, feeds are 8mm or maybe 10mm, it has two RCBO's internally and one of those 50 Amp  "Test" button type breakers from Schneider on the consumer panel, which is again protected by a 100 A "test" button type main safety (Schneider) to cover the consumer unit, and then a mechanical 100 Amp physical breaker to cut off the entire supply. There are four thermostats, 1 is the 60C stat on the output pipe from the hot water, it is self resetting, The other three thermal cut outs are to protect the heating elements, these do not trigger until it reaches 98C, and you have yo open the unit and manually reset them.

Shame really that Panasonic cut costs the way they did with this unit as the 10KW was a solid reliable piece of kit. I won't ever buy another one, I will be replacing this with individual shower units from now on.

Edited October 19, 2020 by Formaleins

[sezze]

4 hours ago, Crossy said:

 

Would you mind sharing details of your heaters?

 

Many of us like loads of hot water and are on weak electrical supplies (is there any other kind here?).

 

Gas is a good way forwards if this is you.

https://www.lazada.co.th/products/mazuma-lpg-10-5cr-i195366-s188754.html?spm=a2o4m.searchlist.list.7.999548a4UuKQMV&search=1

This is the 1 i got . It works good and water can be really hot ( burning level ) if you want to .

There are cheaper models on the market , but this is a multipoint unit with flow switch and i am not very sure about many others , some aren't for sure . Others it is difficult to find enough info about them .

[carlyai]

1 hour ago, Formaleins said:

You can buy them on Lazada, but they don't look that safe from what I have seen. Flu's and venting being the least of my concerns, but I stand to be corrected.

 

https://www.lazada.co.th/products/jk-i955018341-s2012788785.html?spm=a2o4m.searchlist.list.2.99ca48a4h6klQD&search=1

 

https://www.lazada.co.th/products/haite-i960782028-s2040476923.html?spm=a2o4m.searchlist.list.4.99ca48a4h6klQD&search=1

If there is any sort of real safety in the design, flu's and venting may be important. 

My gas log fire (Ok 3, 2, 1 laughing over) has sensors in the unit so that the heater pilot flame won't stay lit with no flu or incorrectly installed rise and run with the flue. So flu and venting could be a worry.

 

[sezze]

44 minutes ago, carlyai said:

If there is any sort of real safety in the design, flu's and venting may be important. 

My gas log fire (Ok 3, 2, 1 laughing over) has sensors in the unit so that the heater pilot flame won't stay lit with no flu or incorrectly installed rise and run with the flue. So flu and venting could be a worry.

 

I know mine has a safety cut out for the gas when no flame . Venting , no safety there as far as i'm aware , so be sure to put it in a well vented place . Thats the advantage of a multipoint unit , you do not need to put it where you take the hot water . It can be outside of the house as long as it is protected from the elements/animals .

I do not have any issues with the electric ones , but most of the time there is no power to give me a really hot shower when i want to . Big electric power units do exist but then you need big wires and house electric . Boilers do exist also , but they are much more expensive , and you are keeping water hot all the time ( inefficient )

[Lacessit]

There are quite a few hot springs in the Chiang Mai-Chiang Rai region, I suggest you move to one of them.

[thaisail]

9 hours ago, Dickp said:

About 14 years ago when remodeling our house I had a solar water heater installed. Have hot water in all four bath rooms and kitchen sinks and out side washing machine, and out side maids sink. Best thing I have purchase in my 29 + years living Thailand cost was not that much and it's paid for it self many times over. Only replaced one fitting a few years ago. all piping in side the walls no exposé pipes.

I am putting solar water heating on my new house which will be complete in a few more days from now. Please can you send me a private message and let me know the brand and size of your solar heating system? Did you use PPR pipe system?

[Formaleins]

24 minutes ago, thaisail said:

I am putting solar water heating on my new house which will be complete in a few more days from now. Please can you send me a private message and let me know the brand and size of your solar heating system? Did you use PPR pipe system?

Some really interesting people get on the electrical forum with some great ideas, In a matter of hours we go from repairing shoddy workmanship of a shower to gas fired boilers and solar power to heat the water, I love it, inquisitive minds, none of the dullard smartphone fools here, nice to find people living in the real world rather than the land of millenials that live in virtual reality! 

God help the world!

[steven100]

17 hours ago, Crossy said:

Alternatively you could just go and buy a new unit

I was thinking the same thing even before reading the book ....  lol

[Formaleins]

14 minutes ago, steven100 said:

I was thinking the same thing even before reading the book ....  lol

Why would you go and buy a new heater that has less than 10 hours on it, still brand new, just unused, repaired by idiots, supposedly with a Panasonic 5 year warranty that still costs 1500 Baht? <deleted> that, time to fight back!

[carlyai]

I have 2 multipoint 3 phase water heaters. On the hot setting it uses the 3 phases to heat the water elements (bit frightening to see 18 Amps/phase when in use).

Twas the electrician who wired my place suggestion. 

So I suppose if I'm crazy enough to have a gas log fire, I'm crazy enough to have some 3 phase water heaters. Really hot, hot water though. Keeps wifey happy. ????

[sezze]

5 minutes ago, carlyai said:

I have 2 multipoint 3 phase water heaters. On the hot setting it uses the 3 phases to heat the water elements (bit frightening to see 18 Amps/phase when in use).

Twas the electrician who wired my place suggestion. 

So I suppose if I'm crazy enough to have a gas log fire, I'm crazy enough to have some 3 phase water heaters. Really hot, hot water though. Keeps wifey happy. ????

I got a 5/15 connection to the house ... single phase . I do not want to change the electric just to have hot water . I can do just fine with 1 aircon and a 5/15 meter . I can surely see the advantage of having electric heater , even doubt about it when my previous started leaking ( possibly my fault ) after 9y . Its so much easier to find electric types , but the scalding hot water if i wanted without changing a single thing was way too attractive . Gas i use for cooking anyways , so i got a gas bottle already , only a splitter is extra .

[bankruatsteve]

24 minutes ago, sezze said:

only a splitter is extra .

You are allowed to have more than one bottle.  ????

[DonaldBattles]

18 hours ago, Crossy said:

 

Would you mind sharing details of your heaters?

 

Many of us like loads of hot water and are on weak electrical supplies (is there any other kind here?).

 

Gas is a good way forwards if this is you.

Gas Heater is made by Hitachi and bought in Thailand. As it was less than $100 I assume it was made in Thailand. This was a very good investment and strongly recommend gas hot water heaters. The water is hot instantly. No waiting. It uses 2 D cell batteries for the ignition. Gas will not enter the heater unless the batteries are working to fire the heater. 

[DonaldBattles]

21 hours ago, Formaleins said:

You can buy them on Lazada, but they don't look that safe from what I have seen. Flu's and venting being the least of my concerns, but I stand to be corrected.

 

https://www.lazada.co.th/products/jk-i955018341-s2012788785.html?spm=a2o4m.searchlist.list.2.99ca48a4h6klQD&search=1

 

https://www.lazada.co.th/products/haite-i960782028-s2040476923.html?spm=a2o4m.searchlist.list.4.99ca48a4h6klQD&search=1

This looks like a good gas water heater to me. With the starting system on most heaters they are safe.

[Crossy]

Anyone with a gas water heater should install a CO detector even if their heater is "well ventilated". They are cheap, one of many :-  https://www.lazada.co.th/products/2in1-smoke-detector-carbon-monoxide-detector-lcd-screen-sound-warning-high-sensor-home-security-i1090676609-s2471450014.html 

 

An earth leak on an electric heater will trip your RCD (most heaters have one built in too).

On a gas heater you can smell a gas leak even if the flame failure device doesn't operate.

 

CO from incomplete combustion is colourless, odourless and deadly, it is a silent killer. Every year we read about holidaymakers in Europe being killed by badly installed gas heaters, let's avoid having these in Thailand.

 

[carlyai]

46 minutes ago, Crossy said:

Anyone with a gas water heater should install a CO detector even if their heater is "well ventilated". They are cheap, one of many :-  https://www.lazada.co.th/products/2in1-smoke-detector-carbon-monoxide-detector-lcd-screen-sound-warning-high-sensor-home-security-i1090676609-s2471450014.html 

 

An earth leak on an electric heater will trip your RCD (most heaters have one built in too).

On a gas heater you can smell a gas leak even if the flame failure device doesn't operate.

 

CO from incomplete combustion is colourless, odourless and deadly, it is a silent killer. Every year we read about holidaymakers in Europe being killed by badly installed gas heaters, let's avoid having these in Thailand.

 

Only problem is it has batteries. Some people (like my sister) takes the batteries out because the alarm goes off when she burns some cooking because of the smoke. Some brothers do have them.

[maxpower]

23 hours ago, Formaleins said:

You can buy them on Lazada, but they don't look that safe from what I have seen. Flu's and venting being the least of my concerns, but I stand to be corrected.

This post caught my attention because there are many of these cheap water heaters for sale at our local trade markets. I am told they are quite reliable but have been known to discharge hot water that could scald and explode if the gas valve fails to close. Must be installed outside.

 

Most are poor copies of Japanese products like Rinnai but sadly many do not having the same level of safety devices fitted.

 

How they work.

A battery powered electronic module detects water flow from a simple switch, starts a spark igniter, opens a gas valve and waits for flame rod signal. If flame is not detected within preset time a flame fail lockout occurs. Fixed gas pressure and water flow sets the output temperature. 

Level of overheat safety protection varies with some models having none on the heat exchanger.

[RocketDog]

On 10/19/2020 at 7:19 AM, Crossy said:

 

Whilst I agree with the rest of your post, this statement is untrue.

 

The electric water heater is one of the few appliances where almost 100% of the energy input ends up as useful energy output (in the hot water).

 

Gas heaters are very effective, but try holding your hand over the exhaust to see just how much energy (>40% for a really good heater) is not going into the water.

 

EDIT Also, without proper installation / ventilation they can be silently deadly (carbon monoxide poisoning). If you don't already have them I would install CO alarms.

 

No question that all your points are correct. It's common for people to think electric heat is inefficient. I wonder how they deal with the anomaly of incandescent light bulbs generating so much heat for so little light. I've used light bulbs as heaters in seed germination boxes and even in small temperature chambers for experiments. 

 

However I must add that electric water heaters use a single heating element, which is easily replaceable. This element can, and definitely will with my hard water, become coated with mineral deposits which are poor conductors of heat and finally leads to corrosion of the element jacket, possibly tripping a GFI breaker.

 

To be fair has gas water heaters have the same problem in worse ways. The mineral scale coats the bottom of the tank and is not easily removed without dismounting the tank and mechanically knocking the scale out; usually not worth the trouble. 

Entropy is a harsh mistress. 

 

The dangers of gas heaters make them a poor choice if you can use electric. I have a electric tank heater on my house that feed the sink and shower in two bathrooms. After using the wall mounted on-demand units in a previous rental house I think I prefer them for the shower. 

[xtrnuno41]

3 hours ago, Crossy said:

Anyone with a gas water heater should install a CO detector even if their heater is "well ventilated". They are cheap, one of many :-  https://www.lazada.co.th/products/2in1-smoke-detector-carbon-monoxide-detector-lcd-screen-sound-warning-high-sensor-home-security-i1090676609-s2471450014.html 

 

An earth leak on an electric heater will trip your RCD (most heaters have one built in too).

On a gas heater you can smell a gas leak even if the flame failure device doesn't operate.

 

CO from incomplete combustion is colourless, odourless and deadly, it is a silent killer. Every year we read about holidaymakers in Europe being killed by badly installed gas heaters, let's avoid having these in Thailand.

 

Well i can tell you what the symptoms are if concentrations arent that big (?) 

Your heart will start to pound you wil feel it. You feel not comfortable, slightly headache.

I knew something was wrong with me, thought it was just me, but luckily i had someone with me so asked if she was ok. No she didnt. Then fast i jumped into conclusion for heater, switched it off and opened all windows, doors. left it off and checked next day.  We did better then. Weird, flames were burning nice blue. 

Later on find out , the central exhaust was blocked. As there were more apartments connected to that central exhaust. Only i was on top floor, closest to the exhaust. So i got everything in my apartment.

CO, CO2. They had to brake open the exhaust (stone) and took 2 bags of twigs and other stuff out of it.

Exhaust not protected from stuff getting in. 

 

You say a sensor, guess 2 is better. 1 on top and 1 below and the 1 extra for gas, below the device.

The sensors getting old and maybe polluted, and or saturated. So testing maybe every 3-4 months would be wise. With a cigarette you will know fast and also with a lighter, the gas sensor.

Depending in which area the sensors are, determines the life of the sensors. Oil drops or dust in the air doesnt make it better for the sensors.

[xtrnuno41]

On 10/19/2020 at 2:13 PM, Formaleins said:

Thanks for your suggestions. I think it is working safely now, I have temporarily fixed the thermostat with a cable tie and a screw, will keep an eye on it. Yes, the schematics are poor, no colour coding at all. Makes sense regarding the 6 wire to 4 wire PCB, the 8KW is useless and lights up both LEDS even when the switch is off (seems dependant solely on the flow switch)  the 10KW unit is much better. it alternates the LED's to let you know what is running, i.e top LED alone is Low, bottom LED alone is MED and both LED's is HI. Flow control actually kills power to everything, regardless of power setting. The second switch is part of the rotary,  it is a block of 3 separate switches with dual connections on the live side, there are no other switches inside. The heater is grounded, feeds are 8mm or maybe 10mm, it has two RCBO's internally and one of those 50 Amp  "Test" button type breakers from Schneider on the consumer panel, which is again protected by a 100 A "test" button type main safety (Schneider) to cover the consumer unit, and then a mechanical 100 Amp physical breaker to cut off the entire supply. There are four thermostats, 1 is the 60C stat on the output pipe from the hot water, it is self resetting, The other three thermal cut outs are to protect the heating elements, these do not trigger until it reaches 98C, and you have yo open the unit and manually reset them.

Shame really that Panasonic cut costs the way they did with this unit as the 10KW was a solid reliable piece of kit. I won't ever buy another one, I will be replacing this with individual shower units from now on.

Ok the test buttons should indicate a RCBO, it switches with a difference of 30 mA between L and N.

You also say , it's grounded, hope ground is good fixed.

Flow control switches all, ok again schematic sucks totally then.

A common tyrap could hold for a while, but keep your eye on it and try to fix it in good way.

The heat will make it older faster and then it crumbles.

[TheMysteriousMrTesla]

12 hours ago, xtrnuno41 said:

A common tyrap could hold for a while, but keep your eye on it and try to fix it in good way.

The heat will make it older faster and then it crumbles.

 

Good point. Your local custom exhaust place should have stainless steel ones for a more permanent fix.

[ifmu]

ahh mix and match ...   imo  like for like  ..